coccus ilicis wrote: ↑4 months ago
Continued from above:
coccus ilicis wrote: ↑4 months ago
Continuing from post 115 above.
To answer your question:
This is where you begin to lose me. What is it exactly about the scriptures you cite here that you could recognize as even beginning to support your claims in this case? For one thing, there are at least three different "wild beasts" found in the scriptures in very different time frames that are pictured with these same "ten horns." (Da 7:7) (Re 13:1 17:3) Would this alone not already begin to present problems with the notion of them serving specifically or exclusively (as you say) "to prophetically identify the 8th king/beast which is the final one"
Then, quoting my post
...see Dan 7:7,8,11,12,13,14. Rev 13:1,2 is what the conglomerate beast looked like in 1948
The question I would pose to you here is—why exactly would you mention the year 1948 in connection with all this? Yes I realize that this year figures in prominently when it comes to "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine;" but can you direct our attention to any SCRIPTURES that would point to this year for any reason at all? (Mt 15:9) (Isa 8:20)
As I said the way we understand scripture is subjective. I put myself in the viewer/writer's sandals and see and hear what they hear and understand at that time. You see it from another perspective. But Revelation cannot be understood from your perspective. Rev 1:3 tells us that what follows will only be understood when the time is near. in an earlier post, I referred you to the link where this is explained, you must have missed it. Here it is again, post 7
We don't know what scripture if any Daniel had access to in Babylon, but we do know for certain that at the time of receiving the visions starting with Daniel chapter 7 he witnessed events recorded from Dan chapters 1 to 5. He ends this at Dan 7:28, saying: "As for me, Daniel, my own thoughts kept frightening me a great deal ... the matter itself I kept in my heart
. The next vision he received around two years later, Dan 8:1-17, is again about the same subject concerning the time of the end, but describes a different aspect of the little horn, (Dan 8:9). At the end of this vision, he is told to, keep secret the vision because it is yet for many days
and he says: I kept showing myself numbed on account of the thing seen, and there was nobody understanding it
, (Dan 8:26,27). The next vision in Daniel chapter 9 is again a different aspect of the end-time scenario. It culminates with righteousness being brought in to time indefinite ... to imprint seal upon vision and prophet
. Starting at Dan 10:1 the things he sees and hears continue to the end of Dan chapter 12. And here the angelic messenger tells Daniel: And I have come to cause you to discern what will befall your people in the final part of the days
. And at Dan 12:4 he is told to make secret the words and seal up the book until the time of the end
, when many would rove about and the knowledge would become abundant. Daniel himself did not understand any of these visions but is told to go toward his end and rest, with the messenger reassuring him, saying, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days
,(Dan 12:13). Many try to align Daniel chapter 11 with historical events, but the only reliable pivotal date we have to work from is the time of the end.
John received the visions of Revelation late in the first century, and we are told that those hearing and seeing and observing the things written in it would be happy because they would know the appointed time is near
, (Rev 1:3). People have been interpreting Revelation for nigh on 2000 years. And yet we are still waiting for the appointed time.
Other than his own introduction, (Rev 1:4-7), John records what he hears and sees like an on-the-spot eye-witness. He doesn't connect events with other prophecies as we are in the habit of doing. He knew that Rome was the one that is
, (Rev 17:10). He would have had no idea what the next kingdom would be. Today we know who came next. Please see my reply to your post 5, here
. I encourage you to download the link to Ramsay's book, The Nameless War, and familiarize yourself with historical events. This has nothing to do with doctrines or religious narratives but is about the on-the-ground political reality that shows how 3 monarchies were overthrown and replaced with democratic rule.
Since the Greek word here immediately after the word –"see" (evidently more accurately translated as –saw rather than –see) is apparently –itan, and itan literally means-- or even --IT was, the manner in which this verse is rendered in basically EVERY English translation other than the one you chose here seems to make much more sense
It is simply my attempt to render the verse as close to the original Greek. Religious narratives have guided the English rendering of Greek verbs. Here is the verse that concerns you.
(strikethrough, highlights and arrows mine)
The first highlighted verb is wrongly rendered saw
, is an aorist
verb. Aorist verbs are essentially overview verbs, a bit like the infinitive verb 'to see
,' it does not indicate when the seeing occurs. Or if I say 'he sees
,' it doesn't tell you when he sees, if he is seeing now, or always sees; that is essentially the function of the aorist verb. The second verb, wrongly rendered was
, is imperfect
or unfinished time, so should be rendered is
. The last Is
is present tense
and thus the only one where the English rendering is correct.
But even though I may be convinced that this is the time when on-the-ground events match those described in Revelation, I could be wrong, even as many others before me have been. It is not until the 2 witnesses are called to heaven, just prior to the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:12,15) that the identity of the two witnesses is revealed, (Rom 8:19).
When Jesus said that those who love him would receive the spirit of truth, which would teach them all things and bring back
to their minds all the things
he had taught them, (Jhn 14:26). The 'all the things
' refers to a full understanding of what he taught. Because it is only when one applies his teaching, such as: Why do you look for the straw in your brother's eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye
, (Mt 7:4), that one becomes aware of one's own failing, and is able to do something about it so as to see more clearly, (Mt 7: 3-5). So the first step to understanding all things
is to understand ourselves and the spirit that motivates us.
At Rev 10:4-7, when John was told not to write down what the seven thunders said, but to seal it up
. What these seven thunders said is called a sacred secret at Rev 10:7, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he proclaims,
[aorist], to his own servant the prophets is brought to a finish
, Rev 10:7
. Note, he proclaims it
to those he calls his servants the prophets at that time. At Rev 5:3, he was told when and how this would occur. It says that not a single one in heaven or earth was found that could break the 7 seals and open the scroll until a lamb with seven horns in the midst of the throne takes the scroll and opens the seals, one after the other
. And it is not until he opens the sixth seal
, (Rev 5:8; 6:1,5-17; 7:1-4, 9-12), that the number of 144,000 is completed. These are his own servants the prophets
to whom the sacred secret is revealed at that time
, (Rev 10:7).
Daniel is told: “Go Daniel because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many will cleanse and whiten themselves and be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones will understand; but those with insight will understand
, (Dan 12:9,10). Many had woken up from the soil of adamah (Dan 12:2) but only some make the effort to cleanse themselves. What does this cleansing involve?
Jesus refers to this cleansing at Mt 13:44-52, where he likens the kingdom of the heavens to a man finding hidden treasure in a field and immediately sells everything he has to buy that field. And a merchant who finds a pearl of great value who sells everything he has to buy that pearl. And likens this to when the great dragnet is hauled onto the beach and the angels put the suitable aside and the unsuitable they throw away, saying: That is how it will be in the conclusion of the system of things
He then adds … every public instructor when taught respecting the kingdom of the heavens, is like a man, a householder who throws out, out of his storehouse [things] old and new.
, (Mt 13:52).
1544 ekballo From ek
; to eject (literally or figuratively)
(highlights, strike-through & arrows mine)
This is the cleansing and whitening that some of those who wake up during the time of the end do, Dan 12:10. They throw out all that they previously understood from their storehouse of knowledge to make room for the sacred secret, the hidden treasure or pearl of great value that can only be obtained if one is prepared to throw out everything and start afresh.
Daniel is now standing up for his lot
, Dan 12:13.