Why did Adam Choose to die?

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coccus ilicis
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Why did Adam Choose to die?

#1 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

And God proceeded to create man in his image, in God's image he created him; male and female he created them. Further, God blessed them and God said to them: Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.

Note it says, God blessed them and told them to have children and fill the earth and subdue it. It addresses both Adam and Eve, and tells them to subdue the earth. It thereby indicates that Gen 1:1-31 was written by God and given to them at the time of their departure from Eden. God's account ends at Gen 2:4 a, with the words...This is the history of the heavens and earth in the time of their being created.

The Hebrew word used for “generation”, history in the NWT, is toledoth, which means “history, especially family history. ...However, Wiseman saw that the colophons in the ancient tablets always were at the end, not the beginning. Google: Colophon - an inscription at the end of a book or manuscript usually with facts about its production. He found that most of the old clay tablets had “colophon phrases” at the end; these named the writer or owner of the tablet; they had words to identify the subject, and often some sort of dating phrase. If multiple tablets were involved, there were also “catch-lines” to connect a tablet to its next in sequence. Many of these old records related to family histories and origins, which were evidently highly important to those ancient people. Wiseman noticed the similarity of many of these to the sections of the book of Genesis, Genesis Authorship

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But back to God's history of events. From what it says at Gen 1:27,28 we know that this account was written after the creation of Eve, and most probably given to them before they departed from the Garden of Eden. In Adam's account of the events, starting at Gen 2:4b he gives us the details of his creation. He tells us what his creators/mentors had told him about the creation of the earth outside the garden of Eden, (Gen 2:5). I found it helpful to think of the Garden of Eden as a kind of biosphere.

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Continuing with Adam's account of events. Now there was yet no vegetation of the field that was sprouting because Jehovah God had not made it rain upon the earth and there was no man to cultivate the ground, (Gen 2:5). So Adam was aware of the purpose for his being created, namely, to cultivate the earth. He also knew that the biosphere in which he had been placed was to serve as a training ground to fulfil that purpose. And Jehovah God proceeded to take man and settle him in the garden of Eden,(Gen 2:15). The earth outside was already teeming with life, Gen 1:12,20,21, but living creatures were also being created for the biosphere, as part of Adam's training ... Jehovah was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field ... flying creatures ... and began bringing them to the man to see what he would call ... each living soul, (Gen 2:19,20). This preparatory on-the-job training would enable him to fulfil God's purpose for which he had been created, namely to subdue the earth and have in subjection the fish of the sea ... the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth, (Gen 1:28). During this part of his training, he noticed that unlike animal kind he did not have a mate. And Jehovah cloned a female from his DNA. Adam explained it this way: Jehovah God proceeded to build the rib he had taken from the man into a woman and bring her to the man, (Gen 2:21,22).

It appears that Adam was not aware of the purpose of the tree of life and the tree of good and bad knowledge, other than what he had been told, which was that he should not eat from the tree of good and bad knowledge lest[ he die, (Gen 3:5). Lest here means may or might, the same as at Gen 3:22, where it says: Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not, [lest he], put out his hand and live to time indefinite. With that Jehovah put him out of the Garden of Eden. So what Adam had understood from what God had told him concerning the tree of knowledge is that if they ate from it they might die.

God had not told him that if he ate from it he would surely or positively die, which is how Gen 2:17 has been rendered in English translation, but Jehovah had said: But as for the tree of knowledge of good and bad you shall not eat from it for in the day you eat from it to die you shall die, (Gen 2:17). Reading from right to left, see the snip from the biblehub interlinear below.

Image (highlight, underline, arrows and added text mine)

Adam had known the Elohim/Gods were able to bring animals to life and he had seen them die. He knew that they had powers that he did not have. So when the serpent said to Eve: To die you will not die, for [the] Gods know that on the day when you eat of it your eyes will have been opened, and you will have become like [the] Gods knowing good and bad, (Gen 3:5), the penny dropped for Adam. Eve had been deceived by what the serpent had said, but he hadn't, (Gen3:12,13). When he heard what the serpent said, he understood the significance of the tree. It was the exit door of the classroom, which allowed them to leave whenever they chose to do so. It represented self-determination, to determine for himself what was good and what was bad. He had been in the biosphere a long time and had possibly become a little bored, evidenced by his words: at last bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh, (Gen 2:23). He needed new challenges.

Another factor that played a part in his decision to leave, was that the serpent had belittled them. How so? At Gen 2:25 it says concerning them: and they continued to be 6174. arom, naked, which comes from the verb, 5783. ur - to expose or lay bare. Being naked hadn't bothered them.

But when Jehovah asked, "Who told you that you were naked. Although naked here, at Gen 3:11, comes from the same verbal root as above. Strong's 5903. erom does not mean literally naked, but is a term of belittlement, i.e. You will have to serve your enemies with hunger thirst and nakedness, (De 28:48). When the serpent had said: For Gods know that on the day they ate from the tree their eyes would be opened, (Gen 3:5). He had gotten Adam's hackles up and he had risen to the bait. He knew that there was the possibility that they might die, but decided to risk it.

The reasons for them leaving the biosphere of Eden are understandable from both a human and Godly standpoint in whose image they were made. That is why the serpent knew exactly which buttons to push, Google: to know what to do to get people to act the way you want.

Did God know that someday Adam would open that door and go outside? Of course he did. Would we have acted differently if we had been in Adam's sandals? And if they had not gone out at that time would humankind have remained in the garden of Eden as pictured by the WT Society, to live in protective custody forever and ever? I, for one, don't think that was ever God's purpose for several reasons, but that is something each one must think through and decide for themselves.
LRW~

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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#2 Post by Bruno » 3 months ago

Karl

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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#3 Post by lynchpin » 3 months ago

Hi Ci,

The question re living in 'protective custody forever and ever'? at end of your discussion.

I can ask the same - when humankind enter the Kingdom (whenever that time will be) would we be under continual custody or will we then be trusted (after being tested) to have complete freedom?

I'll take a look at Revelation just to ensure the situation at that future time. This is just a quick thought on my part now. Feel free to answer anyway.

Regards
lp

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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#4 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

lynchpin wrote: 3 months ago Hi Ci,

The question re living in 'protective custody forever and ever'? at end of your discussion.

I can ask the same - when humankind enter the Kingdom (whenever that time will be) would we be under continual custody or will we then be trusted (after being tested) to have complete freedom?

I'll take a look at Revelation just to ensure the situation at that future time. This is just a quick thought on my part now. Feel free to answer anyway.

Regards
lp
Great Question lp, do check it out in Revelation. I haven't dealt with it because it is a bit of a shock to the system, i.e. Rev 21:8 applies during the 1000 year reign. Quite different from how it was and maybe still is pictured by the WT org.
LRW~

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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#5 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

Bruno wrote: 3 months ago
Hi Karl,

Thanks for the movie clip, It makes one yearn for them to live. The tree of life is also mentioned in Revelation. It says: and down the middle of the broadway, down this side of the river and on that side there were trees of life producing twelve crops of fruits, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the curing of the nations, (Rev 22:2). So, to live forever is a deeply rooted longing. But I feel that if it were not a journey of continuous learning and progress, it would become an intolerable servitude. So what happens when humankind has fulfilled its initial purpose to fill the earth ... and have in subjection the fish of the sea the flying creatures of the heavens and every creature that is moving upon the earth, (Gen 1:28). What comes next? Rev 21:5 says that God is making all things new, a complete renewal of this old heaven and earth. But I have an inkling that this earth was just the beginning of what God has in store for those that love him,

Paul knew more than he let on. He tells us that when he was beamed up to a heavenly paradise/enclosed ecosystem, he heard things about which he was not allowed to speak, (2Cor 12:2,3,4). He alludes to what he heard at 1Cor 2:7 where he says: But we speak about Gods wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, the sacred things God foreordained before this system of things, [literally before the ages (plural)]. This system of things includes the earthly garden of Eden and God's overall plan for humankind. In support Paul cites the essence of Isa 64:4,8 and tells them that they have no concept of what God plans for them. He then speaks about the Pentecostal spirit that was given to them so that they might understand heavenly things, (1Cor2:11-13). But also tells them what they understand at that time concerning these things was partial knowledge that would be done away with when complete knowledge arrived, (1Cor 13:8,9,10,11).

What Paul had said concerning the future when complete knowledge arrived is recorded at 1Cor 2:9, check the parsing below the verbs. It is a little different from how we read it in our English translations. Paul used the aorist overview verb, what it says is: Eye sees not, and ear hears not, neither conceives the heart of man the things God prepares for those loving him. It really makes the future something to look forward to. We will see and hear what we need to know when the time comes.
LRW~

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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#6 Post by Bruno » 2 months ago

coccus ilicis wrote: 3 months ago So, to live forever is a deeply rooted longing. But I feel that if it were not a journey of continuous learning and progress, it would become an intolerable servitude.
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Karl

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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#7 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 months ago

In post 4 lynchpin said:
I can ask the same - when humankind enter the Kingdom (whenever that time will be) would we be under continual custody or will we then be trusted (after being tested) to have complete freedom?
I'm not sure whether I would call it being tested.

In the parable of the prodigal son, neither son was being tested. The son that left home wanted to find out for himself what was good and what was bad. Whereas the one who remained at home continued to live under protective custody, Lu 15:11-32. We don't know who pictures the stay-at-home son, perhaps it is a heavenly one, but both sons play a part in God's purpose. To this day understanding of that parable is that the stay-at-home son pictured the Jew and the prodigal son, gentile.

But that can't be. Let's see why.

"Hear please you heads of the house of Jacob, you commanders of the house of Isreal. Is it not your business to know justice? You, hating what is good and loving what is bad, stripping off the skins from people and the flesh from their bones. You who have eaten the flesh of my people and their skin you have flayed, and their bones you have broken for the pot and flesh in a cauldron, (Mic 3:1-3). Note, that Jehovah addresses two groups, the heads of Jacob and the commanders of Israel.

Jacob was given the name Israel after he had contended with God and men and prevailed, (Gen 32:24-30). The two names, Jacob and Israel are not synonymous, Jacob refers to the natural bloodline. All the sons of the house of Jacob who came to Egypt were seventy, (Gen 46:27 b). Decades earlier, Abraham mustered an army of three hundred and eighteen trained men born in his household against Cherderlaomer to rescue Lot his brother. Jehovah promised that Abraham's seed would be numberless, (Gen 22:17). So apart from Jacob's seventy direct descendants that went into Egypt, there would have been hundreds if not a thousand or more that belonged to Jacob (the greater Israel) when he went down to Egypt. At the time of the exodus six-hundred thousand able-bodied men plus older ones and women and children left, (Ex 12:37). So the heads of Jacob's house refer to direct blood descendants, and Israel to those belonging to Jacob. At Isa 14:1 it says: For Jehovah will show mercy on Jacob and will again, [is yet certain to], choose Israel. And it is on the heads/commanders of these two groups that Jehovah's condemnation applies.

Jehovah says against these ones that are causing my people to wander ... and that actually call our 'Peace!' and when anyone does not put [something] into their mouths, sanctify war against him, (Mic 3:5 cf Rev 13:16,17). And her visionaries will have to become ashamed and her diviners will certainly become disappointed. … Hear please, this you head ones of the house of Jacob and you commanders of the house of Israel, the ones detesting justice n the ones who make everything that is straight, crooked, building Zion with acts bloodshed and Jerusalem with unrighteousness. Her own priests instruct for a price, and her own prophets practice divination simply for money; yet upon Jehovah they keep supporting themselves, saying: “Is not Jehovah in the midst of us? No calamity will come upon us.” Therefore on account of you men, Zion will be ploughed up as a mere field, and Jerusalem herself will become heaps of ruins... (Mic 3:9-12).

So let's explore the supposition that the prodigal son is God's human son.

When Zion is ploughed up as a mere field and Jerusalem is heaps of runs in the final part of the days, that is when the mountain of the house of Jehovah becomes firmly established above the top of the mountains … many nationswill certainly go and say: “Come,” you people, and let us go up the mountain of the house of the God of Jacob, [cf. Rev 7:4 the sealed ones that have been chosen] … And he will certainly render judgment among the peoples and set matters straight and they will have to turn he sword into ploughshares and their spears into pruning shears. (Mic 4:1).

What will have happened to the many that believe in God but at the same time keep fighting each other? And what on earth will have have happened to make the nations give up their arsenal of weapons?
This March ...Biden administration presented a staggering $813 billion proposal for “national defense, Fueling the Warfare State.
Well for a starers Jerusalem including the temple site will have been destroyed, (Mic 3:12; cf Lu 15:14,15, 16); it says: Immediately after the tribulation of the those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and stars will fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, (Mt 24:29).

Compare: and a great shaking occurred and the sun become black sackcloth of hair, and the entire moon became as blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree is being shaken by a high wind casts its unripe figs to the earth … And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking men and military commanders, etc. went into their underground bunkers saying: “Fall over us and hide us from the one seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, (Rev 6:12-17; Mt 24:30). Many of those in the bunkers will be atheist and yet at that time they know without a doubt that this the manifestation of the wrath of God and the Lamb. And for those that do believe in God and Jesus. Jesus returns in a way that is completely different from way they had been expecting. Also Paul tells us that at that time the lawless one is revealed, (2 Thess 2: 8). In short people no matter what their status will be scared out of their wits when the great armada of the Jehovah Gods appears heaven. And it is then that many nations will say let us go up to the mountain of the God of Jacob and he will instruct us about his ways, (Mid 4:1].

At that time God's human son comes to his senses. But which of the two sons is more equipped to deal with the unknown that the Father has planned for him. Do sons of God fall into two categories? The stay-at-home son is told all the things that are mine are yours. The prodigal son still has the earth but once he has fulfilled his task to … fill the earth and subdue it and have in subjection the fish of the sea. The flying creatures of the heaven and every other thing moving on the earth, (Gen 1:28, 1Cor 15:28). What's next? Will there be stay-at-home human sons of God who will continue to care for the earth while the others take their inheritance and venture further afield? Whatever the case, I don't think it will be a one-size-fits-all scenario – it will never be boring.
LRW~

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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#8 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 months ago

In post 4 lynchpin said:
I can ask the same - when humankind enter the Kingdom (whenever that time will be) would we be under continual custody or will we then be trusted (after being tested) to have complete freedom?
I'm not sure whether I would call it being tested.

In the parable of the prodigal son, neither son was being tested. The son that left home wanted to find out for himself what was good and what was bad. In contrast, the one who remained at home continued to live under protective custody, Lu 15:11-32. We don't know who pictures the stay-at-home son, perhaps it is a heavenly one, but both sons play a part in God's purpose. To this day understanding of that parable has been that the stay-at-home son pictured the Jew and the prodigal son, gentile.

But that can't be. Let's see why.

"Hear please you heads of the house of Jacob, you commanders of the house of Israel. Is it not your business to know justice? You, hating what is good and loving what is bad, stripping off the skins from people and the flesh from their bones. You who have eaten the flesh of my people and their skin you have flayed, and their bones you have broken for the pot and flesh in a cauldron, (Mic 3:1-3). Note, that Jehovah addresses two groups, the heads of Jacob and the commanders of Israel.

Jacob was given the name Israel after he had contended with God and men, and prevailed, (Gen 32:24-30). The two names, Jacob and Israel are not synonymous, Jacob refers to the natural bloodline. All the sons of the house of Jacob who came to Egypt were seventy, (Gen 46:27 b). Decades earlier, Abraham mustered an army of three hundred and eighteen trained men born in his household against Cherderlaomer to rescue Lot his brother, (Gen 14:14), and Jehovah had promised that Abraham's seed would be numberless, (Gen 22:17). So apart from Jacob's seventy direct descendants that went into Egypt, there must have been hundreds, if not a thousand or more, that belonged to him when he went down to Egypt. At the time of the exodus six-hundred thousand able-bodied men plus older ones and women and children went with them, (Ex 12:37). So the heads of Jacob's house refer to direct blood descendants, and Israel refers to the numberless multi-national crowd that emerged from Egypt. At Isa 14:1 it says: For Jehovah will show mercy on Jacob and will again, [is yet certain to], choose Israel. And it is to the heads/commanders of these two groups that Jehovah's condemnation at Mic 3:1-12 applies.

Jehovah says against these ones that are causing his people to wander ... and that actually call out 'Peace!' and when anyone does not put [something] into their mouths, sanctify war against him, (Mic 3:5 cf. Rev 13:16,17). And her visionaries will have to become ashamed and her diviners will certainly become disappointed. … Hear please this, you head ones of the house of Jacob and you commanders of the house of Israel, the ones detesting justice n the ones who make everything that is straight, crooked, building Zion with acts of bloodshed and Jerusalem with unrighteousness. Her own priests instruct for a price, and her own prophets practice divination simply for money; yet upon Jehovah they keep supporting themselves, saying: “Is not Jehovah in the midst of us? No calamity will come upon us.” Therefore on account of you men, Zion will be ploughed up as a mere field, and Jerusalem herself will become heaps of ruins... (Mic 3:9-12).

So let's explore the supposition that the prodigal son is God's human son.

When Zion is ploughed up as a mere field and Jerusalem is heaps of ruins in the final part of the days, that is when the mountain of the house of Jehovah becomes firmly established above the top of the mountains … many nations will certainly go and say: “Come,” you people, and let us go up to the mountain of the house of the God of Jacob, [Jacob, chosen ones cf. Rev 7:4] … And he will certainly render judgment among the peoples and set matters straight, and they will have to turn their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning shears, neither will they learn war any more , (Mic 4:1-3).

What will have happened to the many that believe in God but at the same time keep fighting each other? And what on earth will have happened to make the nations give up their arsenal of weapons?

This March ...the Biden administration presented a staggering $813 billion proposal for “national defense, Fueling the Warfare StateWell for a starter, Jerusalem including the temple site will have been destroyed, (Mic 3:12; cf. Lu 15:14,15, 16), and Jesus says: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, (Mt 24:29).

Compare: and a great shaking occurs and the sun becomes black like a sackcloth of hair, and the entire moon becomes like blood. And the stars of heaven fall to the earth, as when a fig tree, being shaken by a high wind, casts its unripe figs to the earth … And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking men and military commanders, etc. went into their underground bunkers saying: “Fall over us and hide us from the one seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb because the great day of their wrath has come, (Rev 6:12-17). Many of those in the bunkers will be atheists and yet at that time, they know without a doubt that this is the manifestation of the wrath of God and the Lamb. And for others who believe in God, Jesus returns in a way that is totally different from the way they had expected him to return. At that time the lawless one is revealed, (2 Thess 2: 8). In short, no matter what their status, people will be scared out of their wits when the great heavenly fleet of the Jehovah Gods appears in heaven and the son of man returns in power and glory, (Mt 24:30,31;25:31). And it is then that many nations will certainly say let us go up to the mountain of the God of Jacob and he will instruct us about his ways, (Mic 4:1].

At that time God's human son comes to his senses. But which of the two sons is more equipped to deal with the unknown that the Father had purposed for him?. The stay-at-home son is told all the things that are mine are yours, (Lu 15:31). Once the prodigal son has fulfilled his purpose to … fill the earth and subdue it and have in subjection the fish of the sea, the flying creatures of the heaven and every other thing moving on the earth, (Gen 1:28, 1Cor 15:28). What's next for him? Will there be stay-at-home human sons of God who will continue to care for the earth? Yes, one would think so. But what about those with a more adventurous spirit, will they venture further afield? We'll have to wait and see. But whatever the case, like God's heavenly family, I don't think it will be a one-size-fits-all scenario. It will certainly never be boring, (1Cor 2:9).
LRW~

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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#9 Post by RR144 » 2 months ago

Adam created suicide. He figured if Eve was going to die, he will due with her because he didn't want to be alone again. Apparently, he didn't reason that God would give him another "eve". At least that's my take!

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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#10 Post by lynchpin » 2 months ago

Hello ci,

I'm putting this reply up as simply and short as possible re 'Testing'

Having Revelation 20:7 - 10 in mind as a 'testing' upon the millions of people who are living on a cleansed, peace- filled Eden earth (as it was in the beginning). These ones are not under 'protective custody' ie as in a prison. They are in a loving relationship with their father with no desire on their part to choose to leave.

However, at the end of Christ's thousand-year reign on earth, Satan is released from the bottomless pit and this event tragically results in a rebellion. The number who rebel with Satan are said to be "as the sand of the sea". Despite that reign of Christ whereby the majority of people have learned to love and obey their king, many will still be harbouring wickedness in their heart and mind and will ultimately follow Satan.

God will for the final time, test people for their obedience (just as he did with Adam) as these rebellious ones will not submit to God's ways and are undeserving to live in the Kingdom. These will not continue to live as Adam had to outside of Eden...these will no longer exist full stop.

Regards, lp

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