Why did Adam Choose to die?

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#11 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 months ago

Bruno wrote: 2 months ago
coccus ilicis wrote: 3 months ago So, to live forever is a deeply rooted longing. But I feel that if it were not a journey of continuous learning and progress, it would become an intolerable servitude.
Image
I agree wholeheartedly.
LRW~

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#12 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 months ago

lynchpin wrote: 2 months ago Hello ci,
… re 'Testing'
Having Revelation 20:7 - 10 in mind as a 'testing' upon the millions of people who are living on a cleansed, peace-filled Eden earth (as it was in the beginning). These ones are not under 'protective custody' ie as in a prison. They are in a loving relationship with their father with no desire on their part to choose to leave.
However, at the end of Christ's thousand-year reign on earth, Satan is released from the bottomless pit and this event tragically results in a rebellion. The number who rebel with Satan are said to be "as the sand of the sea". Despite that reign of Christ whereby the majority of people have learned to love and obey their king, many will still be harbouring wickedness in their heart and mind and will ultimately follow Satan.
God will for the final time, test people for their obedience did with Adam)
Regards, lp
RR144 wrote: 2 months ago
Adam created suicide. He figured if Eve was going to die, he will due with her because he didn't want to be alone again. Apparently, he didn't reason that God would give him another "eve". At least that's my take!
Hello, lp and R144,

I agree with you to some extent, but regarding suicide and testing, there is one thing that was quite different for Adam and Eve and us today, namely their concept of what death is.



Due to the shortness of our life and the hellfire teaching, the fear of death looms like Damocles sword over man. But as Albert King says in his song: 'Everyone wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die,' there is a disconnect in our reasoning where death is concerned.

Adam had seen how the Gods put the spirit of life into lifeless flesh and bones as animals were created. He even described how this was done in the case of Eve. They didn't die in the day they had eaten the fruit because what God had told them was:

Image (arrow mine)

He had told them not to eat from it lest you die. In other words telling them that if they ate from it they might die. When they had eaten from it Jehovah said: Here man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now lest he puts out his hand and also takes fruit from the tree of life, and lives to time indefinite. Therefore, Jehovah posted the Cherubin to prevent them from eating the fruit.

Let's explore this a little further. Satan had said, for the Gods know in the day that you eat from it you will have become like Gods knowing good and bad, (Gen 3:5). In other words they would be like God's heavenly sons including the devil and his followers deciding for themselves what was good and bad. And that is why the Jehovah God's barred them from eating fruit from the tree of life. Whatever that tree was it would mean they would live forever.

And this is the difference between what death is now, and what it means at the end of the thousand-year reign. Humans fear death and make a big song and dance about death: to complain about (something) in a way that is excessive or unnecessary because they don't know what the bible says about death. Adam knew that if he did die he could and would be brought back to life because God had created him to be a caretaker of the earth, (Gen 1:26; 2:5). So for him death was no big deal.

When Jews were seeking to kill Jesus for curing a man on the Sabbath, he said: Do not marvel at this because the hour is coming when all those in God's memorial tombs would hear his voice and come on out, those doing good things to a resurrection of life and those doing bad things to a resurrection of judgement, (Jhn 5:26-29). Doing here is an aorist participle, which is in line with what it says about judgement at Ez 33:13,14,16. Jesus, like Adam, saw human death as something temporary and reversible. He told his disciples: Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul . The Hebrew word for soul is nephesh, which comes from naphash - to be refreshed. He continues: but fear him that can destroy both your body and soul in Gehenna, and told them that even the hairs of their heads are numbered, (Mt 10:26,28,30). God remembers every detail of them so that they can be refreshed.

So what is this Gehanna where both body and soul are destroyed?

At the end of the thousand-year reign, John sees the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne of God and scrolls are opened. And another scroll is opened, It is the scroll of life. And the dead are judged out of the things having been written in the scrolls according to their deeds... And whoever is not found written in the scroll of life is cast into the lake of fire, (Rev 20:11,12,13,15).

So what is the lake of fire? At Rev 20:14 it tells us that death and hades are hurled into the lake of fire which means the second death. And at Rev 20:10 it says, and the Devil who is misleading them, [the nation Rev 20:8], is hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur where both wild beast and false prophet already were, and they will be tormented day and night forever. So Gehenna of Mt 10:18 Gehenna, a valley west and South of Jerusalem that Jesus spoke of, which was the rubbish dump outside Jerusalem, is symbolic of complete destruction.

Adam did not fear this second death because he knew nothing of it. The creator of all things is above all a God of justice (De 32:4) is justified in destroying his rebellious heavenly and earthly sons, because their claim, 'skin and behalf of skin and everything that a man has, he will give in behalf of his soul,' has finally been proved false. And thus this father of the lie and hose that follow him are wiped from God's memory, and therefore can never be refreshed.
LRW~

goghtherefore
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#13 Post by goghtherefore » 2 months ago

Hi coccus ilicis

Regarding your passage: "... Do not marvel at this because the hour is coming when all those in God's memorial tombs would hear his..."

It seems the Watchtower has included the word "memorial" to John 5:26-29. It seems no other translation/transliteration beside the NWT, uses the the memorial in this scripture. Why do you like to use it?

Try and emphasis the word "all" in this passage and see if it changes your view? "... "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

goghtherefore
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#14 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 months ago

lynchpin wrote: 2 months ago Hello ci,
… re 'Testing'
Having Revelation 20:7 - 10 in mind as a 'testing' upon the millions of people who are living on a cleansed, peace-filled Eden earth (as it was in the beginning). These ones are not under 'protective custody' ie as in a prison. They are in a loving relationship with their father with no desire on their part to choose to leave.
However, at the end of Christ's thousand-year reign on earth, Satan is released from the bottomless pit and this event tragically results in a rebellion. The number who rebel with Satan are said to be "as the sand of the sea". Despite that reign of Christ whereby the majority of people have learned to love and obey their king, many will still be harbouring wickedness in their heart and mind and will ultimately follow Satan.
God will for the final time, test people for their obedience did with Adam)
Regards, lp
RR144 wrote: 2 months ago
Adam created suicide. He figured if Eve was going to die, he will due with her because he didn't want to be alone again. Apparently, he didn't reason that God would give him another "eve". At least that's my take!
Hello, lp and R144,

I agree with you to some extent, but regarding suicide and testing, there is one thing that was quite different for Adam and Eve and us today, namely their concept of what death is.



Due to the shortness of our life and the hellfire teaching, the fear of death looms like Damocles sword over man. But as Albert King says in his song: 'Everyone wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die,' there is a disconnect in our reasoning where death is concerned.

Adam had seen how the Gods put the spirit of life into lifeless flesh and bones as animals were created. He even described how this was done in the case of Eve. They didn't die on the day they had eaten the fruit because what God had told them was, to not eat from it lest you die.
Image (arrow mine)
In other words, telling them that if they ate from it they might die. When they had eaten from it Jehovah said: Here man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now lest he puts out his hand and also takes fruit from the tree of life, and lives to time indefinite, (Gen 3:3,22,24). Therefore, Jehovah posted the Cherubim to prevent them from eating the fruit.

Let's explore this a little further. Satan had said, for the Gods know in the day that you eat from it you will have become like Gods knowing good and bad, (Gen 3:5). In other words they would be like God's heavenly sons including the devil and his followers deciding for themselves what was good and bad. And that is why the Jehovah Gods barred them from eating fruit from the tree of life. Whatever that tree was it would mean they would live forever.

And this is the difference between what death is now, and what it means at the end of the thousand-year reign. Humans fear death and make a big song and dance about it: to complain about (something) in a way that is excessive or unnecessary because they don't know what the bible says about death. Adam knew that if he did die he could and would be brought back to life because God had created him to be a caretaker of the earth, (Gen 1:26; 2:5). So for him, death was no big deal.

When Jews were seeking to kill Jesus for curing a man on the Sabbath, he said: Do not marvel at this because the hour is coming when all those in God's memorial tombs would hear his voice and come on out, those doing good things to a resurrection of life and those doing bad things to a resurrection of judgement, (Jhn 5:26-29). Doing , here is an aorist participle, which is in line with what it says about judgement at Ezk 33:13,14,16. Jesus, like Adam, saw human death as something temporary and reversible. He told his disciples: Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul . The Hebrew word for soul is nephesh, which comes from naphash - to be refreshed. He continues: but fear him that can destroy both your body and soul in Gehenna, and told them that even the hairs of their heads are numbered, (Mt 10:26,28,30). God remembers every detail of them so that they can be refreshed.

Gehenna was the rubbish dump outside Jerusalem that was kept burning with sulphur. This is where Jews would cast corpses of criminals whom they considered unworthy of being in God's memory. In Rev 20:10,14,15 it is described as a lake of fire and sulphur, symbolic of complete destruction. They are wiped from God's memory. At the end of the thousand-year reign, the wild beast and the false prophet are already there, and then the devil is thrown there. Then scrolls are opened. One is the scroll of life, (Rev 20:12). Those in the scroll of life are the ones Jesus referred to when he said, those doing good things to a resurrection of life, (Jhn 5:29). So it appears that everlasting life is granted to them at the end of the thousand years and not before.

John sees the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne of God and scrolls are opened. And another scroll is opened, It is the scroll of life. And the dead are judged out of the things having been written in the scrolls according to their deeds. And the sea gives up those dead in it, [cf. Isa 57:20], and death and hades give up those dead in it. And they are judged individually according to their deeds. And death and hades, [ hades/Sheol, as at Gen 37:35], are then hurled into the lake of fire, this is referred to as the second death, (Rev 20:14). So it is only at the end of the thousand-year reign that people no longer die.

Compare: No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, nor an old man that does not fulfil his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him ... and it will occur that before they call out I myself shall hear them ...the wolf and the lamb will feed as one ... they will do no harm in my holy mountain, (Isa 65:20-25). And in Rev 21:7,8 it says: and anyone conquering will inherit these things ...But as for the cowards and those disgusting in their filth, and the murderers and fornicators and those practising spiritism and idolators and the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire.

From this, we get the impression that the difference between now and then is that Satan has been abyssed, and Jesus rules and instantly answers the prayers of those calling on him. Our health will be greatly improved and we shall live longer as people access the trees, the leaves of which are for the healing of the nations, (Rev 22:2). But other than that people will be free to think and do whatever they want even as they do now - judgement does not come until the end of the thousand-year rule. And as it says at Ezk 33: 14,15,16,18, it is not how one starts off, but what counts is how one conducts oneself at the end of the thousand-year rule.

So it is only at that time that Jehovah God gives those whom he judges worthy of life, access to the tree of life so that they might be refreshed, and live to times indefinite, (Gen 3:22).
LRW~

goghtherefore
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#15 Post by goghtherefore » 2 months ago

Hi coccus ilicis

Re: "So it appears that everlasting life is granted to them at the end of the thousand years and not before." And: "So it is only at the end of the thousand-year reign that people no longer die."

1 Thessalonians 4 describes ones that will "ever be with the Lord"; long before the end of the thousand years:

"15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

goghtherefore
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#16 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 months ago

goghtherefore wrote: 2 months ago Hi coccus ilicis

Regarding your passage: "... Do not marvel at this because the hour is coming when all those in God's memorial tombs would hear his..."

It seems the Watchtower has included the word "memorial" to John 5:26-29. It seems no other translation/transliteration beside the NWT, uses the the memorial in this scripture. Why do you like to use it?

Try and emphasis the word "all" in this passage and see if it changes your view? "... "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

goghtherefore
Thank you for bringing this up goghtherefore, I also wondered whether the NW translation was correct and checked.
Here is the link: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/5-28.htm, check it for yourself:
Image (highlights mine)

3419. mnémeion- a memorial, a monument from 3420. mnémé
Original Word: μνήμη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: mnémé
Phonetic Spelling: (mnay'-may)
Definition: memory, remembrance
Usage: memory, remembrance, mention.


So the NW translation is spot on.

The biggest surprise for me was that the noun soul, Heb.
5315. nephesh.
comes from the verb naphash, to refresh - see bottom LH column under 'Strongs Concordance' 5314. naphash
naphash: to be refreshed
Original Word: נָפַשׁ
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: naphash
Phonetic Spelling: (naw-fash')
Definition: to be refreshed


Lexicographers could have saved themselves much time and trouble if they had not been misled by the immortal soul doctrine. Both humans and animals have souls. Jesus clearly showed that it is not immortal when he said: do not be fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of hin that can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna Mt 10:28.

And concerning those in this lake of fire/Gehenna as at Rev 20:10, where it says that 'they will be tormented day and night forever.' The Greek word rendered torment is 931. basanos
Cognate: 931 básanos – originally, a black, silicon-based stone used as "a touchstone" to test the purity of precious metals (like silver and gold), (cf.Mal 3:2,3). So the English word tormented also has its origins in the immortal soul and hellfire doctrine.
LRW~

lynchpin
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#17 Post by lynchpin » 2 months ago

Hi ci,

I'm surprised that you had no knowledgw of this due to your own background from being a jw.

Good that goghtherefore brought this subject up to learn something new for your research. :)

I've supplied a coule of links re soul as the early Watchtower mags were written more to the point or as you say 'spot on'. The early magazines were the ones I gained the most from as a kid ...reading my grandmother's stash under her bed.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1990243

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1958172

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/110 ... soul&p=par

Animals are souls copied from above link-
8 In the Bible the word “soul” applies not only to humans but also to animals. For example, in describing the creation of sea creatures, Genesis 1:20 says that God commanded: “Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls.” And on the next creative day, God said: “Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.” (Genesis 1:24; compare Numbers 31:28.) Hence, “soul” can refer to a living creature, whether human or animal.

lp

AmosAU
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#18 Post by AmosAU » 2 months ago

Hi Everyone,

Some good information coming out in this thread.

LP, some years ago, I quoted Genesis 2:7 to a young Pentecostal student from a bible college. He had never read this before. He was amazed! The true understanding goes way beyond the church dogma of most religious systems.

Gen. 2:7; And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul

I'll extend the thought from CI on the original Hebrew word, nephesh;
H5315
נֶפֶשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
Total KJV occurrences: 753

This gives the possibility of a very broad understanding to what nephesh realy is.

Regards to all,
Amos

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Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#19 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 months ago

coccus ilicis wrote: 2 months ago

Lexicographers could have saved themselves much time and trouble if they had not been misled by the immortal soul doctrine.
Yes.


This doctrine actually came into the church very early. As quoted by Justin Martyr in the 2nd century.

"You may have fallen in with some who are ‘called’ “Christians“. However they do not admit this [truth], and they venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham… They say there is no resurrection of the dead, but rather, they say that when they die, their souls are taken to heaven. Do not imagine that they are Christians.” – Justin Martyr (160 CE)
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

goghtherefore
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#20 Post by goghtherefore » 2 months ago

Hi coccus ilicis

Thank you for your research.

I do not agree that the NWT is "spot on".

I see the Watchtower/NWT added the word "memorial" to describe a tomb; postulating/imputing there are tombs that are not in God's memory. Adding the word memorial before the word tomb is redundant and diverts attention to who would be resurrected; namely ALL in the tombs/graves (imo).

Watchtower has developed doctrine speculating who would be and who would not be resurrected ... I think based on adding the word "memorial" before the word tomb.

John 5:28..." Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.…"

Who does "all" not include in the indoctrinated/etc minds of JW's? or does the word "all" stated by Jesus mean just that...All.


goghtherefore
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

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