This post is not for debate, but to present a spiritual interpretation of how to understand the Book of Revelation, from the 1800s. So much has happened since the author died, and yet his words are as true today as they were 150 years ago!
As x-JWs, we were totally uneducated about what the Christian church has been teaching for 2,000 years. So, for those interested in a fresh, spiritual understanding of how to read the Book of Revelation, this excerpt is offered. A link to the full work is at the end.
"How eagerly men in all ages and conditions seek to pry into the unknown future; and what success attends every lying pretender to such knowledge, the whole history of the world attests. But here is a revelation infinitely more important and glorious than anything that the mightiest efforts of human genius ever extorted from the mysterious depths of nature. Here, too, a veil is lifted from future and many of its real forms in distinct and awful grandeur pass before us, and gleams of its mysterious glory animate our longing hearts. Here God Himself has been pleased in a most wonderful degree to disclose to us the general character of His purposes and future dealings with our world and the church in all their changes through ages. ...
"The Book of Revelation was not intended to give beforehand a history of particular events, but to present the principles that were to shape the world's history, as far as it concerned the progress of the divine kingdom, in their chief combinations and workings, and so to unfold the general course and grand characteristics of God's dealings with His church and the nations during all the long ages of conflict and darkness through which that church was to pass,—the various forms and combinations of evil that would oppose her, and the power by which she would overcome, and the glory that would eventually crown her triumph. And this, too, in order to cheer her heart and confirm her faith during the long night of her conflict, and while crushed and bleeding under the might and malice of her foes. As therefore she goes from age to age along her pathway of strife and tears and blood, with the world's powers all combined against her and externally triumphant, and holding her spiritual origin, glory, and destiny in contempt, she has only to look up to that window which John saw opened in heaven, and thence derive fresh courage and joy in her deepest tribulations.
"She then learns not to think it strange concerning these fiery trials, but to see them as her destined path to an eternal triumph. She there sees these powers that the world deifies and adores,—political, literary, fanatical, infidel and heathen, all characterized as beasts of hideous and monstrous forms,—beasts, looking down to the earth on which they tread, and only there, lording it for a time over a suffering church and a prostrate world, until having exhausted all their skill and malice under the hellish inspiration of the great dragon, they are all together cast into the burning lake, and her own shout of triumph rings through all the earth, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns" (Rev. 19:6). Surely, "blessed is he who reads and those who hear" (Rev. 1:3) these words of divine cheer!"
—James Beverlin Ramsey (1814-71), Revelation, An Exposition of the First 11 Chapters.
https://archive.org/details/spiritualki ... 4/mode/2up
https://banneroftruth.org/us/store/com ... velation/
The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation
Forum rules
Matt 18:6; Eccl 7:9; 1 Pet 4:8 (If you're not sure what they say then please hover over them with your mouse or look them up in your own Bible before posting)
Matt 18:6; Eccl 7:9; 1 Pet 4:8 (If you're not sure what they say then please hover over them with your mouse or look them up in your own Bible before posting)
-
Get out of her
- Posts: 1228
- Joined: 6 years ago
Re: The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation
lamesa wrote:
I have been demonstrating with the scriptures for around 7 years now that your above statement of yours concerning the JW's (or even former ones like myself) is quite true. However in the course of doing so I have been exposing the fact that if anything the situation (at least currently) with all the other organized "Christian" religions is basically the same if not worse.
With regard to the statements/writings you cited here from James Beverlin Ramsey, while it could be demonstrated scripturally that perhaps even a significant portion of what he has to say here rests on a solid scriptural foundation, nonetheless taken as a whole I am left feeling reminded of scriptural expressions such as--..."the delicacies of the king and his drinking wine," or - what the Apostle John under inspiration refers to with terms like-- "the fine fruits that your soul desired, the dainty things and the gorgeous things..." (Da 1:8) (Re 18:14) I'm happy to demonstrate at least a few examples of why this is my position.
First of all there has never been any question or mystery as to the purpose behind the writing of Revelation since the Apostle John explicitly states the reason in the opening words of this book.
..."to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place." (Re 1:1)
This would be the case even if in so doing both present circumstances (present to the time of writing) as well as even prior events are included in the book, as a careful and cross- referenced analysis of the writings will eventually reveal. While the first three Chapters of Revelation are clearly covering events or situations that existed at the time of the writing, a serious consideration of verses 10 and 11 of Chapter 17 should help us appreciate that events which unfolded even well PRIOR to the first century are being covered here. Undoubtedly this was for the reason that for Jehovah to ..."show" or actually help his "slaves" understand " the things that must shortly take place," helping them to see how they would fit into an overall pattern or even foretold CYCLE of events that already HAD been unfolding for many centuries even PRIOR to 96 or so CE would be the most effective way of doing so.
For as long as Jehovah allows me to, I will continue to demonstrate with the scriptures and sound reasoning on them that the more we come to truly understand things such as this or for that matter the symbolic spiritual language found in the holy writings altogether, the more we will come to recognize commentaries on them such as these ones of James Ramsey as precisely what is referenced in accounts like Daniel 1:8 or Revelation 18:14. Even if what he writes here is designed to at least APPEAR to lean on a number of actual truths or scriptures, and even if his words can be described as rather eloquent or even "gorgeous," I personally would have to insist they are ultimately even worse than empty. This is because ANYTHING that does not lead us to the truth of what is being conveyed in the scriptures is ultimately nothing more than derailment or deception. Worse yet, the more "delicately" or well crafted this misdirection is, the more dangerous it is. The following paragraph by Mr. Ramsey is a perfect example of this:
(Da 2:37, 47-49 4:20-22 7:4) (Jer 25:9) (Isa 44:28, 45:1) (Es 10:2, 3) (Php 4:22)
If there were any genuine merit to what Mr Ramsey has to share here, then the first question would be--why then do scriptures like this fly directly in its face? Once again however this is only a small sampling of scriptures that prove Mr Ramsey DID NOT understand Revelation, which in turn means he never possessed any real knowledge of the Bible altogether.
Regardless of whether Jehovah refers to it as a "wheelwork," a "circuit of the cities of Israel," or even a "march around" a city with a kind of "prostitute," the prophetic pattern that the ENTIRE BIBLE is CONSTANTLY directing our attention to INCLUDING Revelation is a cycle of spiritual births and subsequent deaths of an expression of genuine theocratic power and authority on the earth (God's "nation" or "kingdom") that would repeat itself "seven times" with "seven" corresponding "kings" or world powers in a time frame identified with terms like "the appointed times of the nations." (Eze 10:13) (Jos 2:1 5:3, 4) (Mt 10:23) (Re 17:10) (Lu 21:24) (Da 4:23, 32) This 2,520 year time frame that Jeremiah specified as beginning with the reign of "King Jehoiakim" of ancient Judah (609 BCE) was also identified with terms such as that of foreign "exile" and "captivity" of God's people, and It is precisely the cyclical nature of this phenomenon that accounts for the rather interesting ways it was illustrated as well as even DEMONSTRATED for us over the millenniums, such as in the scriptures I just cited. (Jer 1:3) Other examples of this would include accounts like the following:
(Ge 41:22-24)
(2 Ki 5:1, 10, 14)
(Le 26:18)
(Jer 15:9)
(1 Sa 2:5)
It would of course be an oversimplification to insist that this "seven times" phenomenon is the ONLY divine message being conveyed in the Holy Scriptures, but it is very easy to demonstrate that it is the PRIMARY one being focused on. Moreover Mr Ramsey has clearly overlooked this message altogether. At ANY point in time in which a ministry of Jehovah's true prophets results in a renewed and inaugurated "holy covenant" (which is also described as a kingdom covenant or even marriage covenant) with repentant ones among what are ALWAYS spiritually "sleeping" anointed "virgins" and "widows" in these settings, the "birth" of the figurative "barren woman" that results from it IMMEDIATELY begins to manifest itself as a world power. (Lu 22:28, 29) (Mt 25:1, 2, 5, 10) (La 1:1, 4) (Isa 54:1-4) (Jer 15:9) This is because the authority and power it represents is Jehovah's, and this is the reason the same will prove to be true with the "Millennial Reign" we are about to experience any moment now.
What largely accounts for the confusion and ignorance that Mr Ramsey is suffering from here (which is experienced by basically EVERYONE in a setting of a spiritual DEATH of Jehovah's nation) is the fact that ANY world power that results from one of these foretold "seven births" BEGINS in a legitimate covenant relationship with Jehovah. This by extension means that (just as is explicitly stated in accounts like Esther 10:2, 3, they start out actually ..."working for the GOOD of the people." In fact as accounts like Isaiah 44:28 45:1 and Philippians 4:22 make perfectly clear, even the FOREMOST rulers of these world powers would qualify not only as "servants" of Jehovah, but even as "anointed shepherds" of his. (Jer 25:9) Obviously until the moment (if or when) they would violate the "holy covenant" that would POSITION them as such, they if anything would comprise the exact OPPOSITE of what James Ramsey here would have us believe.
Yes just as is explicitly pointed out to us in accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 or 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, it is only when these appointed shepherds "leave the holy covenant" that they now fit the description of the "wild beasts" that ones like Mr Ramsey assigns to them. This act of spiritual adultery quickly transforms what WAS a "faithful town" into a great spiritual "prostitute." (Isa 1:21) (1 Cor 3:16, 17 6:15)
In other words, just as was demonstrated for us also with the "birth of the barren woman" that occurred in or around 33CE, accounts like 1 John 2:18 and Revelation 17:10 should help us to understand that it was not long (roughly a period of only 65 years in this case) before Jehovah's appointed shepherds once again experienced a spiritual "fall" which always accomplishes the exchange in Jehovah's "sanctuary" or "temple" spoken of in accounts like Daniel 11:31 or 2 Thessalonians 2:4. (Jer 15:9) The word -"anti" (as in "antichrist") literally means -replacement or substitute. (Strong's #473) If the British Empire became a world power at the very end of the 1600s as it in fact did, do we have good reason to imagine that true worship and its commensurate true teachings still existed on the earth well over a century later? For one thing if it HAD NOT fallen out of Jehovah's favor soon after it achieved world dominance, there would of course have been no need for the rise of the world power the earth began to experience at the very end of the 1800s. Unfortunately this particular world power was foretold all along to remain in Jehovah's favor for even a much shorter period of time. (Re 17:10)
Agape love;
Sol
Wanted to share some comments/observations on your post here lamesa. Hope you don't mind. Also I hope you can appreciate how earnestly I wish I could only ever give positive feedback on the posts of my dear fellow brothers and sisters, and especially in the case of ones who are as well mannered, respectful and loving as yourself.As x-JWs, we were totally uneducated about what the Christian church has been teaching for 2,000 years. So, for those interested in a fresh, spiritual understanding of how to read the Book of Revelation, this excerpt is offered. A link to the full work is at the end.
I have been demonstrating with the scriptures for around 7 years now that your above statement of yours concerning the JW's (or even former ones like myself) is quite true. However in the course of doing so I have been exposing the fact that if anything the situation (at least currently) with all the other organized "Christian" religions is basically the same if not worse.
With regard to the statements/writings you cited here from James Beverlin Ramsey, while it could be demonstrated scripturally that perhaps even a significant portion of what he has to say here rests on a solid scriptural foundation, nonetheless taken as a whole I am left feeling reminded of scriptural expressions such as--..."the delicacies of the king and his drinking wine," or - what the Apostle John under inspiration refers to with terms like-- "the fine fruits that your soul desired, the dainty things and the gorgeous things..." (Da 1:8) (Re 18:14) I'm happy to demonstrate at least a few examples of why this is my position.
"The Book of Revelation was not intended to give beforehand a history of particular events, but to present the principles that were to shape the world's history, as far as it concerned the progress of the divine kingdom, in their chief combinations and workings, and so to unfold the general course and grand characteristics of God's dealings with His church and the nations during all the long ages of conflict and darkness through which that church was to pass,—..."
First of all there has never been any question or mystery as to the purpose behind the writing of Revelation since the Apostle John explicitly states the reason in the opening words of this book.
..."to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place." (Re 1:1)
This would be the case even if in so doing both present circumstances (present to the time of writing) as well as even prior events are included in the book, as a careful and cross- referenced analysis of the writings will eventually reveal. While the first three Chapters of Revelation are clearly covering events or situations that existed at the time of the writing, a serious consideration of verses 10 and 11 of Chapter 17 should help us appreciate that events which unfolded even well PRIOR to the first century are being covered here. Undoubtedly this was for the reason that for Jehovah to ..."show" or actually help his "slaves" understand " the things that must shortly take place," helping them to see how they would fit into an overall pattern or even foretold CYCLE of events that already HAD been unfolding for many centuries even PRIOR to 96 or so CE would be the most effective way of doing so.
For as long as Jehovah allows me to, I will continue to demonstrate with the scriptures and sound reasoning on them that the more we come to truly understand things such as this or for that matter the symbolic spiritual language found in the holy writings altogether, the more we will come to recognize commentaries on them such as these ones of James Ramsey as precisely what is referenced in accounts like Daniel 1:8 or Revelation 18:14. Even if what he writes here is designed to at least APPEAR to lean on a number of actual truths or scriptures, and even if his words can be described as rather eloquent or even "gorgeous," I personally would have to insist they are ultimately even worse than empty. This is because ANYTHING that does not lead us to the truth of what is being conveyed in the scriptures is ultimately nothing more than derailment or deception. Worse yet, the more "delicately" or well crafted this misdirection is, the more dangerous it is. The following paragraph by Mr. Ramsey is a perfect example of this:
As authoritative, well educated and perhaps even faith strengthening as writings like this might appear on the surface to at least most people, here is a list of scriptures to prayerfully ponder in connection with what Mr Ramsey just stated here. These are just a few that prove irrefutably that at best he has failed miserably in his efforts to grasp even the most pivotal or key messages being conveyed in Revelation, and at worst is actively engaged in deliberate deception."She then learns not to think it strange concerning these fiery trials, but to see them as her destined path to an eternal triumph. She there sees these powers that the world deifies and adores,—political, literary, fanatical, infidel and heathen, all characterized as beasts of hideous and monstrous forms,—beasts, looking down to the earth on which they tread, and only there, lording it for a time over a suffering church and a prostrate world, until having exhausted all their skill and malice under the hellish inspiration of the great dragon, they are all together cast into the burning lake, and her own shout of triumph rings through all the earth, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns" (Rev. 19:6). Surely, "blessed is he who reads and those who hear" (Rev. 1:3) these words of divine cheer!"
(Da 2:37, 47-49 4:20-22 7:4) (Jer 25:9) (Isa 44:28, 45:1) (Es 10:2, 3) (Php 4:22)
If there were any genuine merit to what Mr Ramsey has to share here, then the first question would be--why then do scriptures like this fly directly in its face? Once again however this is only a small sampling of scriptures that prove Mr Ramsey DID NOT understand Revelation, which in turn means he never possessed any real knowledge of the Bible altogether.
Regardless of whether Jehovah refers to it as a "wheelwork," a "circuit of the cities of Israel," or even a "march around" a city with a kind of "prostitute," the prophetic pattern that the ENTIRE BIBLE is CONSTANTLY directing our attention to INCLUDING Revelation is a cycle of spiritual births and subsequent deaths of an expression of genuine theocratic power and authority on the earth (God's "nation" or "kingdom") that would repeat itself "seven times" with "seven" corresponding "kings" or world powers in a time frame identified with terms like "the appointed times of the nations." (Eze 10:13) (Jos 2:1 5:3, 4) (Mt 10:23) (Re 17:10) (Lu 21:24) (Da 4:23, 32) This 2,520 year time frame that Jeremiah specified as beginning with the reign of "King Jehoiakim" of ancient Judah (609 BCE) was also identified with terms such as that of foreign "exile" and "captivity" of God's people, and It is precisely the cyclical nature of this phenomenon that accounts for the rather interesting ways it was illustrated as well as even DEMONSTRATED for us over the millenniums, such as in the scriptures I just cited. (Jer 1:3) Other examples of this would include accounts like the following:
(Ge 41:22-24)
(2 Ki 5:1, 10, 14)
(Le 26:18)
(Jer 15:9)
(1 Sa 2:5)
It would of course be an oversimplification to insist that this "seven times" phenomenon is the ONLY divine message being conveyed in the Holy Scriptures, but it is very easy to demonstrate that it is the PRIMARY one being focused on. Moreover Mr Ramsey has clearly overlooked this message altogether. At ANY point in time in which a ministry of Jehovah's true prophets results in a renewed and inaugurated "holy covenant" (which is also described as a kingdom covenant or even marriage covenant) with repentant ones among what are ALWAYS spiritually "sleeping" anointed "virgins" and "widows" in these settings, the "birth" of the figurative "barren woman" that results from it IMMEDIATELY begins to manifest itself as a world power. (Lu 22:28, 29) (Mt 25:1, 2, 5, 10) (La 1:1, 4) (Isa 54:1-4) (Jer 15:9) This is because the authority and power it represents is Jehovah's, and this is the reason the same will prove to be true with the "Millennial Reign" we are about to experience any moment now.
What largely accounts for the confusion and ignorance that Mr Ramsey is suffering from here (which is experienced by basically EVERYONE in a setting of a spiritual DEATH of Jehovah's nation) is the fact that ANY world power that results from one of these foretold "seven births" BEGINS in a legitimate covenant relationship with Jehovah. This by extension means that (just as is explicitly stated in accounts like Esther 10:2, 3, they start out actually ..."working for the GOOD of the people." In fact as accounts like Isaiah 44:28 45:1 and Philippians 4:22 make perfectly clear, even the FOREMOST rulers of these world powers would qualify not only as "servants" of Jehovah, but even as "anointed shepherds" of his. (Jer 25:9) Obviously until the moment (if or when) they would violate the "holy covenant" that would POSITION them as such, they if anything would comprise the exact OPPOSITE of what James Ramsey here would have us believe.
Yes just as is explicitly pointed out to us in accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 or 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, it is only when these appointed shepherds "leave the holy covenant" that they now fit the description of the "wild beasts" that ones like Mr Ramsey assigns to them. This act of spiritual adultery quickly transforms what WAS a "faithful town" into a great spiritual "prostitute." (Isa 1:21) (1 Cor 3:16, 17 6:15)
Before I actually read through the comments of James Ramsey that you posted here lamesa, I noticed the time frame that this was published. I hope you can appreciate that based on this alone I fully expected to find simply more of these "gorgeous things" that the Apostle John spoke of or what Jesus referred to as the "leaven of the Pharisees." (Re 18:14) (Mt 16:6) (Isa 28:8) You see even with the relatively small amount of scriptural information that I have just covered in this post, can you not see a kind of big red flag here already?—James Beverlin Ramsey (1814-71), Revelation, An Exposition of the First 11 Chapters.
In other words, just as was demonstrated for us also with the "birth of the barren woman" that occurred in or around 33CE, accounts like 1 John 2:18 and Revelation 17:10 should help us to understand that it was not long (roughly a period of only 65 years in this case) before Jehovah's appointed shepherds once again experienced a spiritual "fall" which always accomplishes the exchange in Jehovah's "sanctuary" or "temple" spoken of in accounts like Daniel 11:31 or 2 Thessalonians 2:4. (Jer 15:9) The word -"anti" (as in "antichrist") literally means -replacement or substitute. (Strong's #473) If the British Empire became a world power at the very end of the 1600s as it in fact did, do we have good reason to imagine that true worship and its commensurate true teachings still existed on the earth well over a century later? For one thing if it HAD NOT fallen out of Jehovah's favor soon after it achieved world dominance, there would of course have been no need for the rise of the world power the earth began to experience at the very end of the 1800s. Unfortunately this particular world power was foretold all along to remain in Jehovah's favor for even a much shorter period of time. (Re 17:10)
Agape love;
Sol
Re: The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation
Hi Sol,
Respectfully, I do not wish to debate prophecies. My intent was to show there are other opinions, which, in the case of the one I presented, is still in print after 150 years. At the least, you can appreciate many Christians have found value in it for many, many years.
The quote was from the introduction, and the book does not say that the Book of the Revelation is NOT about the future, only that he did not believe in settings dates and times. Yes, of course, the Revelation is all about the future--and the past. One of his other comments points out that the 7 letters to the 7 churches were meant for all churches in all ages, in the same way the other apostolic letters are for all of the churches of all ages (Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians, etc.).
I think the Revelation can be read BOTH prophetically AND spiritually. Both have value AND both are important. But I do not believe we are to make predictions, because our Lord specifically said to not do that:
Jesus said: “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority" (Acts 1:7).
With all due respect, I do not know whether or not this describes your ministry. But we know that JWs ignore that verse.
Again, my intent is only to offer an alternative reading. Not one Christian has all the answers regarding the Revelation. Also, we do not want to ignore the last book of the Bible!
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near" (Rev. 1:3).
Also, the Book of Revelation is not so complicated and difficult that a Christian must know many details of history in order to be "blessed" by it. I believe a complicated scheme of dates and times is to miss the point, and time proves that all of those types of predictions have failed.
As I have noted in a previous message, in the 1800s, J.N. Darby (1800-1882) and then the Scofield Bible (1909) changed the way most mainstream Christians (primarily Baptists and Evangelicals) understand the Revelation. This is an interesting study in itself. C.T. Russell's ideas were borrowed from William Miller (1782-1849) a Freemason, and then Russell (also a Freemason) changed it up a bit and created his own version. Russell made a lot of money by convincing people the end was near so they could give their money to him!
Note: the JW teach the "pre-tribulation rapture," though they do not use the word "rapture" but that's what they teach, limited to the "anointed remnant."
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/dispensationalism.html
I share this information, for anyone who wants to untangle themselves away from the JW doctrines.
With best regards,
Respectfully, I do not wish to debate prophecies. My intent was to show there are other opinions, which, in the case of the one I presented, is still in print after 150 years. At the least, you can appreciate many Christians have found value in it for many, many years.
The quote was from the introduction, and the book does not say that the Book of the Revelation is NOT about the future, only that he did not believe in settings dates and times. Yes, of course, the Revelation is all about the future--and the past. One of his other comments points out that the 7 letters to the 7 churches were meant for all churches in all ages, in the same way the other apostolic letters are for all of the churches of all ages (Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians, etc.).
I think the Revelation can be read BOTH prophetically AND spiritually. Both have value AND both are important. But I do not believe we are to make predictions, because our Lord specifically said to not do that:
Jesus said: “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority" (Acts 1:7).
With all due respect, I do not know whether or not this describes your ministry. But we know that JWs ignore that verse.
Again, my intent is only to offer an alternative reading. Not one Christian has all the answers regarding the Revelation. Also, we do not want to ignore the last book of the Bible!
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near" (Rev. 1:3).
Also, the Book of Revelation is not so complicated and difficult that a Christian must know many details of history in order to be "blessed" by it. I believe a complicated scheme of dates and times is to miss the point, and time proves that all of those types of predictions have failed.
As I have noted in a previous message, in the 1800s, J.N. Darby (1800-1882) and then the Scofield Bible (1909) changed the way most mainstream Christians (primarily Baptists and Evangelicals) understand the Revelation. This is an interesting study in itself. C.T. Russell's ideas were borrowed from William Miller (1782-1849) a Freemason, and then Russell (also a Freemason) changed it up a bit and created his own version. Russell made a lot of money by convincing people the end was near so they could give their money to him!
Note: the JW teach the "pre-tribulation rapture," though they do not use the word "rapture" but that's what they teach, limited to the "anointed remnant."
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/dispensationalism.html
I share this information, for anyone who wants to untangle themselves away from the JW doctrines.
With best regards,
Re: The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation
For the record, Presbyterians do NOT and never have accepted Darby or the Scofield Bible. I believe the Presbyterians have a lot of good teachings. But I do not attend any church. The Presbyterian churches today are now mostly compromised by "woke" worldiness. It's a mess out there! Surely, the Lord will return soon! Come, Lord Jesus! (Rev. 22:20)
The Roman Catholic church never adopted it either--though it was invented by a Jesuit, so much for that! The Roman (pagan) church is a mother of harlotry, any way you look at it!
Re: The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation
One more note.
Freemasonry is a demonic cult and since Russell was a high-level Freemason, the JW is very much like Freemasonry. At the very top of Freemasonry, they worship the devil--but most members are at the lower part of the pyramid and they do not know what happens at the top. Also, I believe the GB are devil worshipers, and most JWs have no idea about that, of course. BTW, the same is true of Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists. All were started as corporations in the 19th century and all were started by Freemasons.
Freemasonry is a demonic cult and since Russell was a high-level Freemason, the JW is very much like Freemasonry. At the very top of Freemasonry, they worship the devil--but most members are at the lower part of the pyramid and they do not know what happens at the top. Also, I believe the GB are devil worshipers, and most JWs have no idea about that, of course. BTW, the same is true of Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists. All were started as corporations in the 19th century and all were started by Freemasons.
Re: The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation
Hi lamesa,
Yes, we have a thread on that subject called "Armageddon and the salesmanship behind it".
Here's an excerpt from it:
AS most probably know Rutherford was a door to door Encyclopedia salesman before becoming a member of the Society. Then after joining the WTBTS he was the one who started publishing the rainbow series among many other books proclaiming Armageddon is just a heartbeat or two away. He at the time had what I will call a decent size army to go and peddle his publications. He took the newest religion and one of the youngest sects out of infancy with his life threatening Armageddon filled preaching work. Expansion developed rapidly. His stirring words were heard from coast to coast and beyond.
Stranger
-
coccus ilicis
- Posts: 1028
- Joined: 6 years ago
Re: The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation
Hello Iamesalamesa wrote: ↑1 year ago This post is not for debate, but to present a spiritual interpretation of how to understand the Book of Revelation, from the 1800s. So much has happened since the author died, and yet his words are as true today as they were 150 years ago!
As x-JWs, we were totally uneducated about what the Christian church has been teaching for 2,000 years. So, for those interested in a fresh, spiritual understanding of how to read the Book of Revelation, this excerpt is offered. A link to the full work is at the end.
"How eagerly men in all ages and conditions seek to pry into the unknown future; and what success attends every lying pretender to such knowledge, the whole history of the world attests. But here is a revelation infinitely more important and glorious than anything that the mightiest efforts of human genius ever extorted from the mysterious depths of nature. Here, too, a veil is lifted from future and many of its real forms in distinct and awful grandeur pass before us, and gleams of its mysterious glory animate our longing hearts. Here God Himself has been pleased in a most wonderful degree to disclose to us the general character of His purposes and future dealings with our world and the church in all their changes through ages. ...
—James Beverlin Ramsey (1814-71), Revelation, An Exposition of the First 11 Chapters.
https://archive.org/details/spiritualki ... 4/mode/2up
https://banneroftruth.org/us/store/com ... velation/
I have only read your first post properly, and from what you have said in the other posts it appears that you have mainly focused on that where you believed the WT org. is wrong. That leaves us with the question, 'What does the Bible teach.'
I downloaded the link you provided of Ramsay's, 'The Exposition of the first 11 Chapters of The Banner of Truth,' because I wanted to see what he had to say about Rev 1:3 since this verse holds the key to understanding Revelation.
Ramsay says: Neither in the obscurity of this book, therefore, nor in its prophetic nature and design, nor in the discordant views of commentators, nor in the want of human learning and culture, do we find anything at all inconsistent with the declaration, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy." II. This plain and simple declaration of its divine author must of itself be sufficient to satisfy Its practical value, every sincere believer in regard to the value of this book.
... Each of these, however, derives special force from the reason assigned in the text, which de^ the time ...mauds our first attention. " For the time is at hand.''' This invests the things spoken of with an interest nothing else could give them. They are not matters in which only distant generations have any personal interest, but they are concerned with the duty and peace of even that generation to which the book was first given, and hence of every generation since. The alarming dangers it foretells were even then at hand, and so shortly to come to pass, that everyone who heard these words would need its warnings and consolations, and would find in them such guidance and support as would fill him with blessing even in the darkest hour. page 31 & 32, link The Spiritual Kingdom - James B. Ramsay. As the above excerpt is copied and pasted from a pdf file of a book that was written in 1873 there may be some copying errors.
No doubt he was a sincere chap, even as Russell also probably was in 1873. Both believed what they taught. And were most likely at loggerheads with each other as has been the case ever since Jesus's death, (cf. Mt 7:1-5 & Jhn 9: 4,5,). If either of them had been alive in our day and made use of the online study tools we now have, they might have sung a completely different song, perhaps even the new song.
Here is why I say that Rev 1:3 is the key to understanding Revelation.
Rev 1:3a
Blessed is the one reading and those hearing the words of the prophecy, (Rev 1:3 a).
Reading , see 314. anaginóskó -to know certainly, know again, read; Usage: know again, know certainly, recognize, discern, as at Mt 12:3, where Jesus said to the Pharisees: Have you not read what David did when he and his men got hungry. The Pharisees had read and understood what Jesus was saying. So reading embodies knowing with certainty, discerning what is written.
Hearing 191. akouó - to hear, listen; Usage: hear, listen, comprehend, as at Mt 2:1-47. At the time of Jesus's birth when the astrologers came to Herod and asked him about the king that had been born, it says: At hearing this King Herod became deeply troubled.
Herod was not baffled or at a loss by what he heard but asked his religious advisers, joined the dots and figured out what he should do. So it is when on-the-ground realities fulfil what is foretold in Revelation, then we, like Herod, would know that the appointed time is near and would try to figure out what we should do.
Rev 1:3 b
And keeping the things having been written in it , 5083. téreó - to watch over, to guard; Usage: keep, guard, observe , as at Mt 19:17. When a certain one asked Jesus what good must I do in order to get everlasting life. Jesus had answered ... If though, you want to enter into life, observe/keep the commandments continually. Are you agreed, that in order to observe/keep the commandments, he would have had to have been fully aware of what they said? The same holds true for Revelation, until one understands what it says one cannot observe/keep the things having been written in it. Just as it was with Herod, when one has the on-the-ground reality of what is written before their eyes they know the appointed time is near, and so they rub the sleep from their eyes and start reading Revelation afresh, to see what they must do in order to keep/observe what is written.
At Rev 10:3,4,7, when John hears the 7 thunders speak he is told not to write it down. And is told that in the days of sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret which he declared to his prophets is indeed brought to a finish. Earlier he had seen a scroll with seven seals that no one in heaven or earth was able to open, Rev 5:1-3. This scroll with the seven seals is the book of Revelation. It remained sealed shut until the lamb that had been slaughtered took the scroll out of the hand of the one seated on the throne, at which point the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb and started singing a new song; one that had never been sung before, (Rev 5:1,3,6,7,8,9; cf Rev 14:3;15:3). This new song is the sacred secret of Rev 10:7, and it is only fully understood when the seventh trumpet is about to be blown at the time the Lamb causes his two witnesses to prophesy for 1260 days in sackcloth, (Rev 11:3,15;14:3).
At that time all those others mentioned in Revelation, i.e. Rev 7:9,14. Including those others who may not even have believed in God, but respond to the new song, that good news that the messenger flying in heaven calls out to every nation, tribe, tongue and people, telling them to acknowledge the creator, (Rev 14:6,7). All these are also ecstatically happy because they know the appointed time is near.
Yes, Ramsay's spiritual interpretation applied in his day and perhaps even up to the beginning of the 21st century. But if he and indeed Russell had lived now they too might be working hard to master that new song, (Rev 14:2,3).
LRW~
Re: The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation
Hello coccus ilicis,
But it appears you missed a relevant part of my message which answers to your objection. Please note that I have stated (and my author agrees) the following:
I have written elsewhere on this, were I stated my belief that ALL 4 of the major methods of interpretation have value:
But it appears you missed a relevant part of my message which answers to your objection. Please note that I have stated (and my author agrees) the following:
The point the author was making (and I agree) is: that the book of Revelation was written for ALL ages of the church.lamesa wrote: ↑1 year ago ...The quote was from the introduction, and the book does not say that the Book of the Revelation is NOT about the future, only that he did not believe in settings dates and times. Yes, of course, the Revelation is all about the future--and the past. One of his other comments points out that the 7 letters to the 7 churches were meant for all churches in all ages, in the same way the other apostolic letters are for all of the churches of all ages (Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians, etc.).
I think the Revelation can be read BOTH prophetically AND spiritually. Both have value AND both are important. But I do not believe we are to make predictions, because our Lord specifically said to not do that:
Jesus said: “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority" (Acts 1:7).
I have written elsewhere on this, were I stated my belief that ALL 4 of the major methods of interpretation have value:
lamesa wrote: ↑1 year ago The book of Revelation is prophecy, all agree on this. Prophecy shows that all is settled and sure in God’s purposes, all human history is settled and sure. This is the most important lesson in Revelation, and if we get nothing else from the Revelation, we already understand the most important reason it is in the Bible.
A brief overview of the 4 main schools of interpretation:
- 1) The Preterist: holds that all events in the book describe events during the Roman Ceasars (e.g., The Beast is Rome and its 7 Heads were its Caesars. The 7 Heads are, in order of their rule: 1) Julius Caesar 2) Augustus 3) Tiberius 4) Caius 5) Claudius 6) Nero 7) Vespasian. The “five fallen” are the Caesars who died prior to the Roman-Jewish war of 67-70AD. This includes the first five emperors, making Nero the one who “is” and Vespasian the one “not yet come.” And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.)
- 2) The Historical: Like the Preterist, but the numbers in Revelation may be related to a long succession of historic events. (It’s very complex and seems to make sense in may ways, e.g., we are living in the Laodicean age of the church.)
- 3)The Futurist: This is the most popular view among Protestants today. Similar to the Historical, with the important difference that it’s “history” hasn’t yet begun. It is of interest to note that variations of the Futurist theory have largely been responsible for the founding of the prophetic ‘cults’ which have sprung up in the Western World, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventism, and many smaller groups. In a lesser degree, Mormonism takes its rise from a very modified form of Futurism.
THE BOOK IS FOR ALL WHO READ, HEAR AND KEEP ITS WORDS
- 4) The Spiritual Interpretation: Holds that the book of Revelation is for people of God for all ages, that its ‘history’ applies to the lives of the vast majority of Christians who have lived, the Church Age, the time between the first and second comings of Christ.
WHY was Revelation written?
The Revelation is a pastoral letter. The key to the mysteries of the Revelation is found (as we ought to expect) in the first chapter:
The blessing pronounced upon all who read this Book, who hear its words and who keep its sayings (Rev. 1:3).
The events were imminent at the time of writing; “The things which must shortly come to pass” – “The time is at hand” (Rev. 1:1 and Rev. 1:3).
The Book as a whole, and not part, is dedicated to ‘the seven churches which are in Asia,’ which means the sevenfold (or complete) church of our Lord then existing and to exist to the end of time (Rev. 1:4).
So, the book of Revelation was written for the entire church (7 churches = the complete church)
My view: Each view has value and none are exclusively wrong or right. But I reject any view that suggests that it is exclusively correct. The apostle John wrote down what he saw. Reading the chapters of Revelation is like watching football replays. Over and over the same scene is played, but from a different vantage point. For example, the 144,000 is the church from the view of Heaven (God knows each of us by name, we are numbered and sealed from “before the foundation of the world,” Eph. 1:4). The “great crowd” is also the church, but from the viewpoint of earth, as we cannot judge our brothers and we do not truly know who is “sealed” and who is not (as the apostles didn’t know that Judas was the “son of perdition,” John 17:12).
To learn more, these are two good places to start:
http://www.tapesfromscotland.org/Audio8/8155.mp3
https://www.mljtrust.org/sermons-online ... evelation/
-
coccus ilicis
- Posts: 1028
- Joined: 6 years ago
Re: The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation
Hello Iamesa
You make several unsupported statements e.g.
Am I correct that this is what Ramsay says and you also believe.Please note that I have stated (and my author agrees) the following...
The Spiritual Interpretation: Holds that the book of Revelation is for people of God for all ages, that its ‘history’ applies to the lives of the vast majority of Christians who have lived, the Church Age, the time between the first and second comings of Christ...
The Revelation is a pastoral letter...The Book as a whole, and not part, is dedicated to ‘the seven churches which are in Asia ...
...that the 7 letters to the 7 churches were meant for all churches in all ages, in the same way the other apostolic letters are for all of the churches of all ages
Since your title for this discussion is, 'The Spiritual kingdom - How to understand Revelation' The first question that must be answered is, 'What does the word 'spiritual' convey to you. Google says: relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things... relating to religion or religious belief. Or is your definition something more than that, and if so could you please explain.
LRW~
Re: The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation
[Note: I'll reply in two parts, since you asked two good questions and each deserves its own treatment.]
First, I would NEVER define Biblical words or concepts using Google (“of the flesh” John 3:6).
Google cannot distinguish between what is from Jehovah God and Spiritism (Rom. 8:6, 7). As Christians, the ONLY “spiritual” we are interested in is what is controlled by God’s Holy Spirit. So, please do not use Google as an authority (1 Cor. 2:14).
The Bible ALWAYS answers itself, “interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual” (1 Cor. 2:13, 14). And truly, WHO cares what the “flesh” thinks or says, right?! So, what does the Bible say?
The Bible places “spirit” in opposition to the “flesh”:
The “world” and the “flesh” CANNOT receive ANYTHING truly spiritual (John 14:17).
That’s a good question. The answer is simple: whatever is “spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14).coccus ilicis wrote: ↑1 year ago The first question that must be answered is, 'What does the word 'spiritual' convey to you. Google says: relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things... relating to religion or religious belief. Or is your definition something more than that, and if so could you please explain.
First, I would NEVER define Biblical words or concepts using Google (“of the flesh” John 3:6).
Google cannot distinguish between what is from Jehovah God and Spiritism (Rom. 8:6, 7). As Christians, the ONLY “spiritual” we are interested in is what is controlled by God’s Holy Spirit. So, please do not use Google as an authority (1 Cor. 2:14).
The Bible ALWAYS answers itself, “interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual” (1 Cor. 2:13, 14). And truly, WHO cares what the “flesh” thinks or says, right?! So, what does the Bible say?
The Bible places “spirit” in opposition to the “flesh”:
- “You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him” (Rom. 8:9).
- “no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God” (1 Cor. 2:11).
- Compare: “Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Mat. 16:17).
- “These things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God” (1 Cor. 2:10).
The “world” and the “flesh” CANNOT receive ANYTHING truly spiritual (John 14:17).
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot] and 1 guest