The Revelation Spiritually Understood (And why I am not a Dispensationalist)

[lamesa]

The book of Revelation is prophecy, all agree on this. Prophecy shows that all is settled and sure in God’s purposes, all human history is settled and sure. This is the most important lesson in Revelation, and if we get nothing else from the Revelation, we already understand the most important reason it is in the Bible.

A brief overview of the 4 main schools of interpretation:

1) The Preterist: holds that all events in the book describe events during the Roman Ceasars (e.g., The Beast is Rome and its 7 Heads were its Caesars. The 7 Heads are, in order of their rule: 1) Julius Caesar 2) Augustus 3) Tiberius 4) Caius 5) Claudius 6) Nero 7) Vespasian. The “five fallen” are the Caesars who died prior to the Roman-Jewish war of 67-70AD. This includes the first five emperors, making Nero the one who “is” and Vespasian the one “not yet come.” And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.)

2) The Historical: Like the Preterist, but the numbers in Revelation may be related to a long succession of historic events. (It’s very complex and seems to make sense in may ways, e.g., we are living in the Laodicean age of the church.)

3)The Futurist: This is the most popular view among Protestants today. Similar to the Historical, with the important difference that it’s “history” hasn’t yet begun. It is of interest to note that variations of the Futurist theory have largely been responsible for the founding of the prophetic ‘cults’ which have sprung up in the Western World, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventism, and many smaller groups. In a lesser degree, Mormonism takes its rise from a very modified form of Futurism.

4) The Spiritual Interpretation: Holds that the book of Revelation is for people of God for all ages, that its ‘history’ applies to the lives of the vast majority of Christians who have lived, the Church Age, the time between the first and second comings of Christ.

THE BOOK IS FOR ALL WHO READ, HEAR AND KEEP ITS WORDS

WHY was Revelation written?

The Revelation is a pastoral letter. The key to the mysteries of the Revelation is found (as we ought to expect) in the first chapter:

The blessing pronounced upon all who read this Book, who hear its words and who keep its sayings (Rev. 1:3).
The events were imminent at the time of writing; “The things which must shortly come to pass” – “The time is at hand” (Rev. 1:1 and Rev. 1:3).
The Book as a whole, and not part, is dedicated to ‘the seven churches which are in Asia,’ which means the sevenfold (or complete) church of our Lord then existing and to exist to the end of time (Rev. 1:4).
So, the book of Revelation was written for the entire church (7 churches = the complete church)

My view: Each view has value and none are exclusively wrong or right. But I reject any view that suggests that it is exclusively correct. The apostle John wrote down what he saw. Reading the chapters of Revelation is like watching football replays. Over and over the same scene is played, but from a different vantage point. For example, the 144,000 is the church from the view of Heaven (God knows each of us by name, we are numbered and sealed from “before the foundation of the world,” Eph. 1:4). The “great crowd” is also the church, but from the viewpoint of earth, as we cannot judge our brothers and we do not truly know who is “sealed” and who is not (as the apostles didn’t know that Judas was the “son of perdition,” John 17:12).

To learn more, these are two good places to start:
http://www.tapesfromscotland.org/Audio8/8155.mp3
https://www.mljtrust.org/sermons-online ... evelation/

[Get out of her]

I'm afraid I had a little trouble figuring out which thread I should post this reply on. Nevertheless I really appreciated you getting back to me and clarifying things a bit- lamesa. Hopefully you don't regard my reply as too tenuous or even wordy to get through, but since I'm certain I can support these points with the scriptures I see it as more than worth the time and effort to write this all out.

I wanted first of all to explain why in my case if anything I go out of my way to completely disregard things like all these different categories people so often seem eager to place people into such as "dispensationalist," "preterist" or whatever. I thought you yourself actually articulated one of these reasons rather well in fact when you essentially insisted that the truth or reality of the situation is ultimately to be found in bits and pieces amongst basically ALL these different categories.

But has it not always actually been satan and the demons who are responsible for creating the kinds of divisions we are currently considering here? Pharisees, Sadducees, Herodians, etc. Yes my research indicates that these "party followers of Herod" spoken of in accounts like Mark 3:6 actually comprised yet another category of apostate Judaism in the first century whose members were also referred to as "Herodians." Even divisions among divisions seems to be the methodology of satan and his minions, and not simply in religious circles but really with everything. And has this not consistently proven itself to be a very effective "divide and conquer" strategy, designed to keep everyone so distracted with fighting and arguing amongst themselves that they never have the time to figure out who their REAL enemy is, and by extension a way to overcome this enemy? And of course the true source of everyone's problems is at least largely the very ones continually initiating and maintaining all these divisions or categories in the first place.

The scriptures make it clear that the kinds of divisions we are speaking of do not originate from Jehovah, as I'm sure you already know. (1 Cor 1:10 11:18) But I wanted to also talk about yet another reason I never got caught up with things like this constant categorizing and perhaps even endeavoring at some point to determine where exactly I may or may not fit in with them. This is because it's a reason the scriptures ALSO seem to strongly support. And to do so I hope you don't mind if I begin by respectfully asking you to please give some thought for a moment to the question of where it was exactly that you found all these terms here and their respective definitions, and upon some careful reflection, could you honestly say they were in a place where you should have been looking to begin with? And while I have to give you credit for at least citing a couple scriptures in an effort to support an idea or two that you are advocating here, was it really from a prayerful consideration of these passages that these positions or views came to you, or were they not rather found basically in the same religious material where you stumbled upon these terms and definitions?

With all due respect, if the former was not at least basically the case, then I'm certain I would not feel compelled to point out that these scriptures you cited apply strictly to the precise setting and context they are found in. This was namely a setting that Jesus himself indicated was about to change rather dramatically with the additional holy spirit that was soon to envelope his disciples. (Ac 1:6-8) You see things such as writing books of the Bible (which these disciples of Jesus were soon to do) are obviously among the examples of prophesying, and as writers like the Apostle Paul and John made rather clear, genuine prophets actually know quite a bit about things like "times and seasons." (1 Th 5:1) (1 Joh 2:27) (Joh 14:12) In turn these prophets themselves foretold FUTURE periods in which genuine prophets would appear on the earth. (He 9:26-28) (Re 11:3) Not that they ever really needed to. (Am 3:7)

I assure you I'm not trying to arrogantly talk down to you here lamesa. In fact the moment I finally or truly "caught sight" of the fact that even MY OWN religion had at some point become completely corrupted, my first inclination was to do exactly what most if not basically ALL the brothers and sisters seem to do upon finding themselves in this situation. (Mt 24:14, 16) This was namely to assume that true religion and by extension its true teachings of the Bible must therefore exist with some OTHER religious organization, one that I simply have not yet encountered. Undoubtedly a good thing for us to be pondering at this moment is whether or not this was the approach taken by the ones who became disciples of John the Baptist and Jesus in this very same post-apostasy/pre-kingdom setting in the early part of the first century. (Col 1:13)

You see among the things I knew for certain is that at least during the periods in which Jehovah's nation actually EXISTED, or otherwise had not managed to yet again transform itself into a a great spiritual "prostitute," it was ALWAYS organized, and thus also fit the definition of a religion and a faith as opposed to strictly a nation. (Isa 1:21) (Eze 23:1-4) (1 Cor 14:33) (Jas 3:16) I imagined I could easily discern which organized group actually qualified as such by simply embarking on an examination of their religious literature, so I immediately began to perform a search of exactly that. But within just a couple of days I was suddenly struck with the following questions which quickly changed everything for me in a very dramatic manner:

Who is it really that I am placing my trust and faith in here at the moment with my current approach? (Ps 18:2)

Even if I made it a matter of prayer before embarking on this search, are my ACTIONS not demonstrating that it is ultimately MYSELF that I am relying on here? (Pr 3:5)

Are my actions not currently directing my attention simply to more extra-biblical religious literature or "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine" AS OPPOSED to the Bible, and is this not basically how I got myself into this mess to begin with? (Mt 15:9) (Isa 8:20)

Particularly since I seem to have found myself in another foretold setting of complete national "apostasy," is it not rather likely in fact that I am utterly failing to heed Jesus' command to "watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees"? (2 Th 2:1-8) (Mt 16:6) (Isa 28:8)

And if I CONTINUE with my current approach, would this really even ALLOW Jehovah to bless my efforts to genuinely understand the scriptures and by extension the extremely alarming situation I have just found myself in?

I now determined that for at least the time being I would focus my attention STRICTLY on prayer and the scriptures themselves, and see where exactly that might soon lead me. What occurred shortly thereafter was actually a SECONDARY anointing of the holy spirit. While the initial one seemed to largely be designed basically to help me understand that I needed to "get out from among and separate myself" from the religious organization I was currently a member of, this second one by contrast suddenly began enlightening me on things like what exactly was meant by no longer "touching the unclean thing" so that Jehovah could once again "take me in," or otherwise how I could actually "flee to the MOUNTAINS" more specifically as opposed to merely performing this exodus. (2 Cor 6:17) (Mt 24:15, 16) You see even with my INITIAL anointing I was able to discern that these "mountains" Jesus spoke of were just as symbolic as the "Judeans" who would need to "flee" to them.

But as I already conceded lamesa, NONE of us should have the objective of somehow wanting to force our notion of the truth of God's word on others. And if anything this would particularly hold true in the case of our fellow brothers and sisters who quite tragically have once again experienced this "lording over" Jesus spoke of by what turned out to be merely false religious leaders in the first place. (Mt 20:25) You and I both know that genuine ministers of Jehovah never operate in this manner. (Mt 11:29) So I will leave it up to you as to whether or not you would like to discuss these things further with me, and particularly since this post has already become rather wordy. I've grown very accustomed to people not wanting to continue engaging with me just in case it might make you feel bad to decline.

Agape love;
Sol

[lamesa]

Particularly since I seem to have found myself in another foretold setting of complete national "apostasy," is it not rather likely in fact that I am utterly failing to heed Jesus' command to "watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees"? (2 Th 2:1-8) (Mt 16:6) (Isa 28:8)

And if I CONTINUE with my current approach, would this really even ALLOW Jehovah to bless my efforts to genuinely understand the scriptures and by extension the extremely alarming situation I have just found myself in?

I'm very sorry my posts have offended you.

[from above:] My view: Each view has value and none are exclusively wrong or right. But I reject any view that suggests that it is exclusively correct. The apostle John wrote down what he saw. Reading the chapters of Revelation is like watching football replays. Over and over the same scene is played, but from a different vantage point. For example, the 144,000 is the church from the view of Heaven (God knows each of us by name, we are numbered and sealed from “before the foundation of the world,” Eph. 1:4). The “great crowd” is also the church, but from the viewpoint of earth, as we cannot judge our brothers and we do not truly know who is “sealed” and who is not (as the apostles didn’t know that Judas was the “son of perdition,” John 17:12).

[/quote

I should have known better, and so I apologize. I now I recognize that I am speaking to xjws and jws who have been abused and controlled with "apostasy."

I felt free to share what I've been learning and failed to say: "These doctrines are NOT essential for salvation." (ONLY turning away from sin and faith in Christ is essential, these other doctrines are not essential.)

I wasn't personally accused of apostasy or disfellowshipped, and I didn't lose my family, so I don't know that pain. Only recently (after nearly 30 years), when I contacted old friends, did they realize that I am "apostate" and now they shun me. While I am sad for them, there's no pain for myself.

When asked why I left, my answer is "the Holy Spirit." I was never disfellowshipped because I had been highly regarded as a pioneer for all of my youth, nearly two decades, and I didn't do anything wrong, and then I moved away. It's a complicated story, but I look back and feel guided. And then I influenced my family and they all left eventually too. Sadly, they left the Lord, so they aren't the better for it.

So, I said all of that to explain that "apostasy" has been so abused by JW that it I refer to the "apostates" on the Internet with affection.

On the other side, the term "apostate" is truly a serious word and rightly applies to the governing body of JW.

[Proselytiser of Jah]

I still have to study it more. But my views of Revelation are a combination of all the above views.

I would call my view "Dualist".

In that I think it speaks of events that 'have' happened in the first century. But that there are prophetic echoes and multiple fulfilment of these things on greater spiritual levels, as well as literal.

As John was told "write the things you have seen, that are, and will be". It may indicate a theme of repetition, of happenings which are going on in a cycle, which only end until the real second advent of Jesus.

[Proselytiser of Jah]

In that I think it speaks of events that 'have' happened in the first century. But that there are prophetic echoes and multiple fulfilment of these things on greater spiritual levels, as well as literal.

IE:

Jews
Jerusalem
Rome
Mountains

Rome attacks harlot Jerusalem, in turn Rome props itself up to be a god and strikes God's people, and faithful Christian Jews flee to the mountains to get away from both of them

In turn
Jews = Christians
Harlot Jerusalem = City of False Christendom, Christian Rome becomes the whore of Babylon
Rome = Nations that attack Christians
Mountains = Mount Zion

Rome in turn has become Jerusalem when it was "Christianised" by Constantine which in turn corrupted the church, so, like the 1st century Jews/Christians "get out of her to flee to the mountains", as the Jews physically fled the city to the literal mountains, Christians flee to the spiritual mountains.... and the cycle continues as Christianity splinters, creating more sects and organisations of men, and the world in general turns on religious people.

[lamesa]

I still have to study it more. But my views of Revelation are a combination of all the above views.

I would call my view "Dualist".

In that I think it speaks of events that 'have' happened in the first century. But that there are prophetic echoes and multiple fulfilment of these things on greater spiritual levels, as well as literal.

As John was told "write the things you have seen, that are, and will be". It may indicate a theme of repetition, of happenings which are going on in a cycle, which only end until the real second advent of Jesus.

Yes, this is my understanding too. I think they all have value and most of all, it's important to learn contrasting ideas to more fully understand the issues.

[lamesa]

In that I think it speaks of events that 'have' happened in the first century. But that there are prophetic echoes and multiple fulfilment of these things on greater spiritual levels, as well as literal.

Yes! I really like the way you stated this!

[Stranger]

I wanted first of all to explain why in my case if anything I go out of my way to completely disregard things like all these different categories people so often seem eager to place people into such as "dispensationalist," "preterist" or whatever.

I think you're doing well in that regard Sol, I also believe the Apostle Paul who was not appointed by men would too. (1Tim 1:4)


Stranger, (Eze 8:12)

[coccus ilicis]

The book of Revelation is prophecy, all agree on this. Prophecy shows that all is settled and sure in God’s purposes, all human history is settled and sure. This is the most important lesson in Revelation, and if we get nothing else from the Revelation, we already understand the most important reason it is in the Bible

Hello Iamesa,
Welcome.

I agree with the above statement.

We are made in God's image, which means we have a spiritual side to our nature. At Prov 8:1 this is called wisdom. Wisdom is feminine, she is the feminine side of Jehovah's nature that he produced from the beginning of his ways, she was with him from the start, (Prov 8: 22, 23). She calls out ... "To you, O men I am calling, and my voice is to the sons of men" [adam]. How does her voice manifest itself in us? From experience, I would say it is the thought that pops into my consciousness, others may call it a hunch, a gut feeling, etc. Without realizing it we have all experienced it, but how did we, do we, react to it. She admonishes us, O inexperienced ones understand shrewdness and you stupid ones understand heart.

Being made in God's image we are like little Gods, and have the power to create and destroy. But like children, when we get it right we have a tendency to fall into the trap of hubris - self-glorification. And along with that comes our downfall. This is what the Lord's prayer that Jesus gave us is about. We ask our heavenly Father to give us our bread for the day - spiritual bread, cf. Jhn 4:31-34. Immediately followed by a request to forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us. When our Father gives us our spiritual bread for that day, we feel great - we may glorify ourselves, putting ourselves above others. Whether we express this consciously or unconsciously, it hurts those at the receiving end of our hubris, belittling them. And so recognizing this in ourselves and others we need to forgive, as we forgive them. Jesus then tells us to ask the Father to not lead us into temptation, i.e. giving us more bread than we can handle, but to deliver us from evil. The 'deliver us,' is in the imperative mood, we are in effect telling the Father to do whatever it takes to prevent us from falling into the snare of our own making, the snare of thinking we are special. We are after all only miniature gods in training, spiritual babes.

Getting back to your theme. I believe this process has occurred from the very beginning. With regard to understanding scripture at different times, ones have had insights, heard wisdom's voice, nudging them in a certain direction, but then followers, convinced they are on the right track embroider that initial insight/wisdom voice/God's word, and bit by bit the direction changes, leading them up the garden path. Until the time comes when Jehovah nudges them back in the right direction. This is how it has been throughout the generation, with us little twirps hearing the voice of wisdom and getting too big for our boots. Our Father knows and fully understands the process and he continues to nudge us in the right direction. For us, it has taken thousands of years to grow up, but from a heavenly perspective, it is but a moment. And so wisdom keeps calling out and discernment keeps giving forth her voice ... She had built her house and hewn out her seven pillars. She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine and has set her table in order and she sends forth her lady attendants to invite the inexperienced ones, whoever is in want of heart, to come in and learn how to walk straight in the way of understanding, (Prov 8:1; 9:1-6).

We are now again at a juncture where wisdom is nudging adam onto the path heading in the right direction. Rev 10:7 says with regard to this time, but in the days of the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets, is indeed brought to a finish. Jesus had said that prior to his return he would send a spirit of truth that would teach them all things, (Jhn 14:16,17, 26), that did not happen in the first century. Time will tell if that time is now. But regardless of what happens, we know that Jehovah's partner, wisdom, is guiding adam to come to be in the spitting image of his Father.

[Get out of her]

lamesa wrote:

I'm very sorry my posts have offended you.

I should have known better, and so I apologize. I now I recognize that I am speaking to xjws and jws who have been abused and controlled with "apostasy."

I felt free to share what I've been learning and failed to say: "These doctrines are NOT essential for salvation." (ONLY turning away from sin and faith in Christ is essential, these other doctrines are not essential.)

Please don’t imagine I was offended lamesa and I hope that you and really everyone here always feels more than free to discuss whatever is on their mind at the moment. (Within reason of course) I simply endeavor to address people's posts in a manner that I can personally recognize as directing their attention to what the scriptures actually teach about whatever topic they are discussing. I was actually more concerned that I was coming across as a bit overbearing. In fact I hope and PRAY it is only ever the scriptures and the authority behind them that I take seriously and not myself.

I wasn't personally accused of apostasy or disfellowshipped, and I didn't lose my family, so I don't know that pain. Only recently (after nearly 30 years), when I contacted old friends, did they realize that I am "apostate" and now they shun me. While I am sad for them, there's no pain for myself.

When asked why I left, my answer is "the Holy Spirit." I was never disfellowshipped because I had been highly regarded as a pioneer for all of my youth, nearly two decades, and I didn't do anything wrong, and then I moved away. It's a complicated story, but I look back and feel guided. And then I influenced my family and they all left eventually too. Sadly, they left the Lord, so they aren't the better for it.

I'm very much appreciating the way you are opening up and sharing some of your history and background with us; very interesting and helpful as far as I'm concerned. But I was saddened to hear about your immediate family members. Just so you know, I have long been endeavoring (with the scriptures of course) to help my dear brothers and sisters appreciate that when they leave organized religion outright in one of the foretold settings of a broken holy marriage covenant (a complete national "apostasy") for the REASON that they have came to recognize its apostate condition, this at least basically if not without exception means they have experienced an anointing of Holy Spirit. Not sure how successful I have been however. Still working on it.

In my case since I was apparently not shy about voicing my ever growing concerns to ANYONE in the Watchtower organization after experiencing an anointing, I ended up sitting in front of three different "investigation committees" on the accusation of apostasy before I finally realized I needed to make my exit. A little slow in the head I'm afraid. I believe it is because I followed the council there in Luke 21:14 that I made it out of all three investigations completely unscathed. The things that came out of my mouth quickly left the investigators completely speechless every time, as they knew they would be forced to openly contradict the scriptures to pursue things any further. So yes I was not disfellowshipped for alleged "apostasy" either when I left, but that doesn't mean I am not being completely shunned ever since then by nearly all the people I spent most of my time with for the first 50 or so years of my life.

So, I said all of that to explain that "apostasy" has been so abused by JW that it I refer to the "apostates" on the Internet with affection.

On the other side, the term "apostate" is truly a serious word and rightly applies to the governing body of JW.

So very well said on both counts! While I find it often requires a little explaining and cross referencing with additional scriptures for many people to fully appreciate, the SCRIPTURAL definition of "apostasy" or even THE "apostasy" (which accounts like 2 Th 2:1-8 make clear would occur on more than one occasion with the holy nation) is clearly laid out for us in passages like Daniel 11:30-32 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. This is all about when the LEADERS or divinely appointed shepherds of the nation "leave the holy covenant" with an act of spiritual adultery that ALWAYS transforms what WAS a holy nation or "faithful town" into a great spiritual "prostitute." (Isa 1:21) (1 Cor 6:15) Due to the great river of false teachings that immediately begin to emerge from the "disgusting thing" that this apostasy "PUTS IN PLACE" of these appointed shepherds however, (the actual definition of the antichrist) (Strong's #473) undoubtedly the most important thing for the resulting anointed "sleeping virgins" (Mt 25:1, 2, 5) to understand here is the following:

Regardless of whether we refer to it as true religion, true worship, Israel, God's nation/kingdom, Christianity or SPIRITUAL Israel, since this holy marriage covenant and the "KEEPING" of it (Ex 19:5) is always what establishes the very EXISTENCE of this nation, this in turn should help us to begin actually grasping things like the incredibly SOBERING words of scriptures like 2 Corinthians 6:17 and Revelation 13:7, 8:


"Therefore get out from among them and separate yourselves, says Jehovah, and quit touching the unclean thing, and I will TAKE YOU IN." (2 Cor 6:17)

"And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation, 9 and ALL those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not ONE of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered from the founding of the world."(Re 13:7, 8)

Satan very much does not want the anointed "virgins" to understand or even accept what is CLEARLY being conveyed in what are actually MANY scriptures like these. This is because he knows that if they did, it is much more likely that they would begin doing what is ALWAYS necessary for them to have a share in the NEXT upcoming "marriage feast" with their heavenly "bridegroom." (Mt 22:14 25:10) This "marriage feast" is of course simply another way of symbolically representing the renewed holy marriage or kingdom covenant that results from the ministry or "prophesying" that ALWAYS begins immediately prior to another foretold "birth" or manifestation of God's kingdom. (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12) (Jer 15:9) This is a ministry directed exclusively towards Jesus' fellow anointed "brothers," and is always carried out by prophets or even "son of man" who are assigned to "inspect" these "virgins" to determine whether or not they will first of all be assigned a SHARE in this ministry. (Eze 2:1) (Mt 25:34-40) (Lu 19:44) (Jos 2:1) If they then "stick with" these "appointed slaves" to the end of their earthly "trials," they will be among what on this final foretold occasion will be none other than the "incorruptible" and "immortal" spirit shepherds who will be involved VERY SHORTLY in the final foretold PUBLIC ministry. (Lu 22:28, 29) (Mt 24:45) (Da 12:3) (1 Cor 15:51-53)

Rest assured it is no coincidence that this holy kingdom covenant is also represented as an "ARK of the covenant," which in turn is a symbolic reference to precisely what was being symbolically prefigured by NOAH'S ark. (He 8:5) (Mt 24:37) In other words, these ministries towards "Christ's domestics" on the part of a Noah type figure or what in these time frames are very oppressed and HUMILIATED prophets who basically no-one seems to pay any regard to are ALWAYS designed to renew or rebuild what was always SIGNIFIED by this "ark." (Mt 24:45) This is namely the holy covenant that always establishes God's KINGDOM or nation, and by extension the SALVATION it always furnishes for what in these time frames is ALWAYS an impending destruction upon ALL of God's enemies.

The fact is all this "tickling of the ears" from a ceaseless torrent of false ministers is primarily intended for the anointed ones who exist in the time frames that we once again find ourselves in at this very moment. (2 Ti 4:3) Satan is keenly aware of the fact that just as soon as this final foretold "Ark" is completed, (namely the one spoken of in accounts like 1st Corinthians 3:16, 17), the "OTHER sheep" will be no more difficult to now gather into this rebuilt nation than it was for Noah to subsequently gather the animals into the ark for survival of the great flood. (Joh 10:16) (Lu 12:32) (Re 7:9)

Agape love;
Sol