In the beginning was the Word.

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apollos0fAlexandria
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Re: In the beginning was the Word.

#21 Post by apollos0fAlexandria » 1 month ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 1 month ago In turn, I challenge you Apollos, to give me a scripture where it says "Jesus is eternal and uncreated". I've shown scriptures which say the opposite verbatim.
Thank you PoJ, but I'll take a rain check for now. The Lord has kindly presented quite a few productive challenges recently, so I'm doing my best to keep focus.

All the best with your research though.

Apollos

apollos0fAlexandria
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Re: In the beginning was the Word.

#22 Post by apollos0fAlexandria » 1 month ago

Stranger wrote: 1 month ago
apollos0fAlexandria wrote: 1 month ago Unity in Christ doesn't come about through man's word.

How right you are Apollos! The old tabernacle couldn't do it (produce unity in Christ), the new one we are assured of will. (Heb 9:11)


One must love Christ to inherit His substance and to have their treasures filled. (Pr 8:21)



Stranger, (Heb 10:16)
Hi Stranger

I love that you hit on such an appropriate scripture out of Proverbs 8. We can get so caught up in the differences around a chapter like this that we miss gems like that one.

Thank you!

Apollos

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coccus ilicis
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Re: In the beginning was the Word.

#23 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Hello Stranger and others who replied,

There is yet another way of understanding this verse that I don't think has been considered. What we do know for certain is that Jhn 1:1-18 are the words of the secret disciple that wrote the 4th gospel account. Peter referred to this secret disciple in Jhn 21:20,21, and it goes on to say: 'This is the disciple that bears witness about these things and that wrote these things, and we know that the witness he gives is true,' (Jhn 21:24).

So this account is a written account, recorded by an eye-witness. This disciple had also recorded Jesus saying, 'But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came not to judge the world but to save the world. He that disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him, the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day, because I have not spoken of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment of what to say ... and what to speak. So it is the Father's word that Jesus spoke.

The word 3056. λόγος (logos) occurs 331 times in the NT scriptures alone.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth ... and God proceeded to say "Let light come to be.". These are the first words he uttered. And this is what the secret disciple referred to when he wrote: In the beginning, the word is (exists), and the word is with God, and god is the word. Is/exists, is an imperfect indicative active verb, see Jhn 1:1, here.

So when God uttered the words "Let light come to be", and light came to be, In that sense, his word is god.
LRW~

Get out of her
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Re: In the beginning was the Word.

#24 Post by Get out of her » 1 month ago

Developing a habit of cross referencing various scriptural terms while at the same time paying close attention to the context and setting they are individually found in is among the things that will go far in clearing up the confusion and mystery people experience when encountering scriptural questions or issues like this. In the case of terms such as --"in the beginning" or "the founding of the world," a Bible concordance will quickly reveal dozens of passages for us to prayerfully consider for precisely this purpose.

What we will soon discover upon embarking on this analysis is that the "beginning" or "founding" being addressed is not always the same. But we should also come to soon appreciate just how important it is to recognize the distinctions. For example by simply considering the setting and context of the "beginning" spoken of at Genesis 1:1 we can easily discern that the literal creation of both the heavens and the earth as well as the preparing of the earth in particular for human and animal habitation is the setting for the rather tragic events that are about to be enumerated. However if we were to continue "rendering our sacred service with our power of reason" as we are commanded at Romans 12:1, could we really imagine that this is the "beginning" or "founding" being addressed in accounts like Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 1:4, 5 or Revelation 13:8?

Yes the more closely we examine accounts like these and their accompanying setting and context, the more we are compelled to recognize that often the "beginning" or "founding of the world" being spoken of in the scriptures is with reference to a much more figurative or even SPIRITUAL beginning. It is actually a kind of "RE-creation" or even "rebirth" being addressed here which is explicitly and even consistently associated not only with a "suffering" and subsequent "slaughtering" of a kind of "lamb"-like "firstborn" entity, but one that is immediately thereafter resurrected to the heavens "once for all time" to "put sin away through the sacrifice of himself." (Mt 19:28) (He 9:25, 26) (Jer 15:9) (Isa 66:7, 8) (1 Th 5:3) However due to the fact that this is simply yet another Bible topic we have long been deceived and misled on, there is something right here in these same accounts that we will find even much more astonishing!

The fact is what is already strongly indicated in scriptural prophesies like 1 Thessalonians 5:3, Revelation 11:7, 11, 12 12:5 and Jeremiah 15:9 is solidly confirmed also here in the very next verses of Hebrews Chapter 9. As we consider these two verses we want to bear in mind they were foretold and recorded well AFTER the priestly atonement the earth experienced in 33 CE:


27 "And it is RESERVED for men to die once for all time, but after this a judgment, 28 so also the Christ WAS offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the SECOND time he appears it will be APART from sin he will be made visible to the ones earnestly awaiting him for salvation." (He 9:27, 28)


If we are paying close attention we will come to realize there are actually at least FIVE different facets of the Christ that are being addressed here simultaneously, or what in the Greek to English interlinears is sometimes rendered/translated simply as "anointed" rather than Christ. (The literal definition of Christ or Christos) In other words since in the case of these "men" who in this setting of the writing of Hebrews were "RESERVED to die once for all time," their priestly blood atonement would AS ALWAYS be produced precisely FOR ..."bearing the sins of many," this alone would prove the following: The "SECOND time" being referred to here is strictly with reference to the "HEAD OF THE CORNER" or "head" of the "FOUNDATION CORNERSTONE" of what is ultimately a "body of MANY members of the Christ." (Ac 4:11) (Col 1:18) (1 Pe 2:6) (Eph 2:20) (Re 6:11) Is this not precisely the manner in which this "Christ" has ALWAYS been described for us? (Ro 12:4, 5) (1 Cor 12:12) But especially if even the "foundation CORNERSTONE" of the spiritual temple has a "head," are we beginning to recognize facets of this "Christ" and by extension "beginnings" or "foundings of the world" that that had previously escaped our notice altogether?

So here then are the five facets of this Christ or "kingly/priestly" provision of Jehovah (Re 5:10) that we are currently considering. We might notice that two of them exist in a setting of a holy marriage or kingdom covenant that has been violated with spiritual adultery on the part of these anointed ones, and at least THREE that exist in a setting in which this holy covenant has been renewed with at least one or more of the relatively humble and repentant ones among this "body of many members."

In a setting of a BROKEN holy marriage covenant that has reduced what were FORMERLY "brides of the Lamb" into mere figurative/spiritual "virgins" or even "barren widows" of this heavenly "bridegroom," there are what is described as "foolish" and "discreet" ones among this anointed "body." (Mt 25:1, 2, 10) (Re 21:2, 9) (La 1:1, 4) (Isa 54:1-4) Unfortunately accounts like Mathew 22:14 make it clear that only a "few" of these anointed ones will ultimately choose to humbly and repentantly offer themselves up to BEAR responsibility for the "sins of the many" that are ALWAYS incumbent upon them in these settings. (He 9:27, 28) (Ne 1:4-7) (Da 9:3-19) (Isa 53)

This broken holy covenant or "sin of the PRIEST" ALWAYS brings with it a COMMUNITY responsibility, which is exactly what accounts for scriptures like Revelation 13:8. This is precisely the reason that the priestly sacrifice that is soon furnished also by these "men" who are "RESERVED" to "die once for all time" is identified also as a "COMMUNION sacrifice." (Da 11:30-32) (Le 4:3, 10) Yes terms such as this point to the "guiltiness" involved with the "sins of the MANY" which are NO LONGER atoned for in these settings that always require yet ANOTHER "re-creation," "beginning," "founding of the world" or "birth of the barren woman." (He 9:28) (Mt 19:28) (Eph 1:4) (Jer 15:9) Yes unfortunately this is another way of saying that the VAST MAJORITY of these "many members of the Christ" will ultimately prove to be nothing more than "foolish virgins." But what about the facets of the Christ that are found in a setting of a RESTORED holy covenant or what is also referred to as a "birth of the holy nation" or "coming of the kingdom"? (Col 1:13)

While there would ALWAYS be a resurrected or HEAVENLY facet of the Messianic kingdom (and thus the Christ) in ANY setting after 33 CE, when it comes to the EARTH these anointed ones actually qualify as the "Lamb's wife" in these settings of a renewed and inaugurated holy covenant. (Re 21:9) Yes they are no longer mere prospects or even spiritually "sleeping virgins" who desperately need to demonstrate humble and repentant "discretion" to hopefully be "CHOSEN" as a future "bride." (Mt 3:2, 4, 17 22:14 25:1, 2, 5, 10) However what is actually being referred to there at Hebrews 9:27, 28 is a facet of the Christ which even when on the EARTH would qualify as the entity described for us in accounts like Daniel 12:3, Matthew 24:31 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. Just as the Apostle Paul makes clear there in first Corinthians, this incredibly glorious manifestation of the Christ would unfold at some point with the events associated with the "LAST trumpet" or what the Apostle John identifies as the "SEVENTH trumpet." (Re 11:15)

But once again, what finally qualifies as a "city having REAL foundations" is one that not only has a "foundation CORNERSTONE," but even a "HEAD" of this "corner." (He 11:10) (1 Pe 2:6, 7) Is it not rather apparent that this "head" represents the perfect and sinless "member" of the "body of the Christ" that appeared along with John the Baptist in the first century? (1 Cor 12:12) More specifically this would be the "incorruptible and immortal" spirit being that this unusually majestic prophet became after his resurrection to the heavens in 33 CE. (1 Cor 15:51-53)

So the question now would be --how exactly should scriptural information like this affect the way we should understand passages like John 1:1, Colossians 1:15-20, Hebrews 7:3 or even Proverbs 8:22-31? Are we beginning to see scriptures like this in an entirely new light? If not we can be certain that accounts like Leviticus Chapter 16 will continue to seem PARTICULARLY confusing and mysterious to us. Why is this?

This is because at least one or more of Jehovah's prophets like the ancient Enoch pointed out that the first angel Jehovah created actually went by the name- Azazel. Moreover not only did this angel never become a "firstborn FROM the dead," if anything he would qualify as the firstborn OF the dead, at least in a spiritual sense. (Col 1:18) (Re 1:5) Yes the fact is not only did this angel become the one we refer to as satan the devil, but his status as the oldest and most experienced of Jehovah's sons was reportedly among the things he at some point allowed to contribute to his prideful downfall. (Eze 28:11-19)

Agape love;
Sol

goghtherefore
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Re: In the beginning was the Word.

#25 Post by goghtherefore » 1 month ago

Hi Get out of her

Re: "... the first angel Jehovah created actually went by the name- ..."

Are you directly or indirectly saying Jehovah created angels (etc)?

Colossians 1: 15-17:

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence. For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross. "

John 1: 3:
"Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made."

Further, John 1:14 "And the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

So the Logos , becoming flesh, namely our Lord Jesus Christ, created angels; correct?


.02 goghtherefore
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

Stranger
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Re: In the beginning was the Word.

#26 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

goghtherefore wrote: 1 month ago So the Logos , becoming flesh, namely our Lord Jesus Christ, created angels; correct?

I'm anticipating somewhat of a revolving answer Gogh, almost sure of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F_DRNCGjQM



Stranger, (Isa 40:21-22)

goghtherefore
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Re: In the beginning was the Word.

#27 Post by goghtherefore » 1 month ago

:whistle: ...great (apropos) tune... 8-) 8-)
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

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coccus ilicis
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Re: In the beginning was the Word.

#28 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Stranger wrote: 1 month ago
goghtherefore wrote: 1 month ago So the Logos , becoming flesh, namely our Lord Jesus Christ, created angels; correct?
I'm anticipating somewhat of a revolving answer Gogh, almost sure of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F_DRNCGjQM

Stranger, (Isa 40:21-22)
Hi Stranger, I think in 'the beginning,' in Gen 1:1 refers to the beginning of the physical creation when the Gods created the heavens and earth.
Image
(arrows & inserted S mine)

God singular only began to be used in the OT after the Sopherim's emendations circa 450 BC. You will find that Ezra, Nehemiah and Malachi refer to God, (singular).

134 Emendations of the Sopherim
The Sopherim Legacy. So, this thing the Sopherim achieved by their 134 Emendations, obscuring the fact that Yahweh is more than just one single Being, from their time onward, has hindered people's ability to properly conceive of Who and What God IS.

It appears as if the Gods' human children keep going round in circles chasing their own tails, but it's probably more like spirals which means we are getting somewhere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tr9Ncoo-yw

Image
LRW~

Get out of her
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Re: In the beginning was the Word.

#29 Post by Get out of her » 1 month ago

Gogth wrote:
Are you directly or indirectly saying Jehovah created angels (etc)?
It's never been an issue of what Sol has to say, but rather what is truly or actually being conveyed in the symbolic spiritual language found throughout Gods written word. This is all the more so since in ANY setting in which the "apostasy" that ones like Paul spoke of at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 requires yet another (as he says) "presence of our Lord Jesus Christ" and its commensurate "day of Jehovah," the entire earth is dealing with what Jesus himself spoke of in accounts like Matthew 15:9 and 16:6 while preaching and teaching in this very setting. (Isa 28:8) (2 Cor 6:17) Moreover this becomes extremely easy to demonstrate the moment we actually succeed in obeying divine commands like this which of course apply in ALL post-apostasy/pre-kingdom settings.

A good example of this is how I clearly demonstrated with the scriptures also in my last post that the Christ (or anointed) the scriptures often speak of is rather different than the one that is currently always described for us in the literature and teachings of organized religion. The moment we actually succeed in learning to pay more attention to the Bible itself than the teachings that merely claim to be based on it, there is a seemingly endless stream of scriptures that will suddenly begin to seem FAR less confusing, mysterious, and even contradictory to us. (Isa 8:20) Basically the reason we are having this scriptural discussion in the first place is because these false teaching are CREATING all this confusion and mystery. I am certain I can demonstrate the truth of this even further with the scriptural answers to your questions:
Are you directly or indirectly saying Jehovah created angels (etc)?
Colossians 1: 15-17:

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence. For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross. "

John 1: 3:
"Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made."

Further, John 1:14 "And the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

So the Logos , becoming flesh, namely our Lord Jesus Christ, created angels; correct?
The "son" (also referred to as the "firstborn son" as well as terms like "son of man") and the "word" ("logos" in Greek as you likely know) we read of here in these scriptures you cited are of course among the ways the Christ as well as JESUS Christ (which is actually distinct in some manner) is identified in the scriptures. However since I am very familiar with how you have been taught by religious leaders to understand things in connection with this for your entire life, would I be wrong to assume you would find scriptures like Ezekiel 2:1 rather confusing? Yes Jehovah identified the prophet Ezekiel as the "son of man" as well. Once again however, if or when we become more concerned with what the Bible actually teaches than mere false religious leaders, scriptures like this will soon begin making perfect sense to us. In this case I would encourage you to go over the thread entitled—Who or What are the Two Witnesses? since any serious consideration of it should go far in clearing up this confusion.

As I demonstrated yet again in my last post, there are more facets to this "Christ" or "son of man" entity than we have long been led to believe. For one thing if satan and his minions can succeed in getting everyone to focus strictly on the facet that the Apostle John narrows in on here at John 1:14, namely the "HEAD of the "CORNER" or "foundation cornerstone" of this "Christ"/"son of man" entity, I suspect you are among the ones who can appreciate just how much easier it would now be for them to lead people into idolatrous false worship. (1 Pe 2:7) (Mt 21:42) We can be certain this was the primary objective all along. But here is something else I am rather certain of if you can manage to go over my last post again while removing some pre-conceived ideas from you mind and focusing strictly on the symbolic spiritual language of the scriptures I cite:

Accounts such as Matthew 8:22 and Revelation 13:8 should help us to understand that the "apostasy" or spiritual "killing" spoken of here as well as accounts like 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and Daniel 11:30-32 ALWAYS results in the situation described in these passages. In OUR case at least, EVERYTHING is now nonexistent INCLUDING Jehovah's holy angels. This is in the sense that WE have completely alienated OURSELVES from them by means of rejecting their authority over us WITH this broken "holy covenant." In these settings even Jehovah's PROPHETS are recognized by him as a kind of "carcass" or "corpse" until one or more of them manages to humbly and repentantly accept full responsibility for the "guiltiness" Jehovah ALWAYS assigns to these "apostasies" at the level of the entire community. (Mt 24:28) (Re 11:8) (Le 4:3)

Just as was demonstrated for us with the "son of man" who went by the name- Ezekiel after King Jehoiakim completely violated Jehovah's holy marriage covenant by crawling into bed with Pharaoh Necho of ancient Egypt, TRUE prophets of Jehovah accept full responsibility for this spiritual death by offering themselves up as a "voluntary offering" or otherwise making themselves available for all the opposition, ridicule, and even persecution that is ALWAYS part and parcel to delivering Jehovah's messages and teachings to their fellow anointed brothers and sisters in these settings. (2 Ki 23:34, 35) (Mt 24:45) This opposition is inevitable since not only does this broken marriage covenant always reduce these "members of the body of the Christ" into spiritually "sleeping virgins" and "widows," but ones who at this point have only ever been exposed to false teachings. (1 Cor 12:12) (Mt 25:1, 2, 5) (La 1:1, 4) The true teachings of God's word ALWAYS seems like a foreign language or even a completely "new song" to people in these settings of national apostasy. (Re 14:3) (Eze 33:32)

Now when Jehovah comes to recognize this ministry to Jesus' "brothers" as having been completed, then just as foretold in accounts like Revelation 11:3-12 his true prophets are used to inaugurate a renewed holy kingdom covenant by essentially receiving a call from heaven to …"COME UP HERE." (Mt 25:40) (Re 11:11, 12) (He 9:16-18 26-28) In such a setting this anointed entity (Christ) now qualifies not only as a "firstborn son" to Jehovah, but more specifically a "firstborn FROM THE DEAD." (Col 1:18) However this is NOT in the manner we have always been led to believe. Once again, "NOT ONE" person's "name stands written in the scroll of life" after a "sin of the PRIEST" has brought "guiltiness upon the PEOPLE" or otherwise has "removed the continual sacrifice" (more specifically its atoning value) from Jehovah's "sanctuary" and "put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation." (Re 13:8) (Da 11:31) What is more, this "son of man" entity ALSO now qualifies as the …"firstborn of ALL CREATION" in the sense that EVERYTHING that was forfeited by the preceding "apostasy" INCLUDING Jehovah's holy angels and LIFE OR SALVATION ITSELF begins to be returned or restored to repentant humankind BY MEANS of this priestly offering. (Col 1:16)

ALL of the ministries and the commensurate priestly sacrifices performed by what is ultimately the "MANY members of the body of the Christ" that result in a renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant qualify as a "beginning," a "RE-creation" or a "founding of the world" in this sense, which would of course be a SPIRITUAL sense. (1 Cor 12:12) (Joh 1:1) (Mt 19:28) (Eph 1:4) While the first century Apostles and in fact Jesus himself referred prophetically to SUBSEQUENT priestly offerings to be furnished by this anointed or Christ entity, the first century Christian congregation quite naturally tended to focus more on the one that made God's kingdom manifest TO THEM PERSONALLY between the years of 33 and 96 or so CE when the holy covenant was violated yet again. (Col 1:13) (1 Joh 2:18) (Re 17:10) This is the reason the scriptures as we know them stopped being written at this time. Books of the Bible are written by TRUE Christians who basically do not exist in a setting of a broken holy covenant. Yes it is our individual prerogative to reject this way of understanding God's word in favor of some way we might personally prefer, but the fact is we would need to completely ignore a good number of scriptures to actually do so.

Agape love;
Sol

Stranger
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Re: In the beginning was the Word.

#30 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

coccus ilicis wrote: 1 month ago The Sopherim Legacy. So, this thing the Sopherim achieved by their 134 Emendations, obscuring the fact that Yahweh is more than just one single Being, from their time onward, has hindered people's ability to properly conceive of Who and What God IS.
Hi Coccus,

Thank you for your insight I know you work very hard at it.

Here's a good one for you:

"Old man Rueben is lying on his death bed taking his last breaths and the entire family is there with him holding his hands and trying to comfort him. So he starts asking them where is Nathan? and they answer Oh, he is here Papa, where is Caleb? Oh, he is here Papa, where is Samuel? Oh, he is here Papa, where is Asher? Oh. he is here too Papa. The old man takes another real deep breath and then ask them, Who in the hell is watching the store?


Stranger, (Ro 2:29)

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