The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan? (A Commentary)

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apollos0fAlexandria
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Re: The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan? (A Commentary)

#21 Post by apollos0fAlexandria » 6 months ago

PoJ

After a little research I have to acknowledge that the prevailing view out there seems to agree with you that prayer is an act of worship. That is unless you're a Catholic and want to justify praying to saints I guess. So I think you have a decent point there.

It doesn't change my stance at all, because the Father and Son are both worthy of worship according to scripture. (Phil 2:10; Heb 1:6; Rev 5:13,14, as well as the myriad other scriptures that describe acts of proskeneo that Jesus never said anything negative about, contrasted with Rev 19:10)

Bear in mind that these scriptures are not the absolute foundation for my position though. That mostly comes from the NT writers applying OT Yahweh texts to Jesus directly. Whilst I understand the concept of agency in Jewish theology, I believe that the NT is inspired of God for all Christians throughout the Christian era (last days), and if God wanted us to see things only through an "agency" lens, I believe he would have made that much clearer.

Best,
Apollos

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Re: The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan? (A Commentary)

#22 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 6 months ago

I can respect that Apollos :)


As for this
Whilst I understand the concept of agency in Jewish theology, I believe that the NT is inspired of God for all Christians throughout the Christian era (last days), and if God wanted us to see things only through an "agency" lens, I believe he would have made that much clearer.
For me it couldn't be any more clear that God is using agency. For example, scriptures which say Jesus always calls God "his God" and "our God", and verses which say Jesus will eventually hand "back" the Kingdom to the Father after the 1000 year reign (whenever that will be). If he was God, then it would be saying he was giving the Kingdom back from himself... to himself?

I think saying "one part of God hands it over to another part of God" is pushing it beyond the bounds of common sense....


Messiah/Christ means anointed, all Christians are Messiahs, anointed ones, Christs, and they are all also kings and priests, just like Jesus. When they rule with him, they may even have an equality to him, or at least an authority and position very close to it. A high king/preist, along with lower kings and priests perhaps.

It's why the Apostles were called "brothers of Jesus" who all shared the same Father and God. It's very wholistic and consistent, through the OT and NT. Kings are anointed, consecrated, by the authority of God, but God does not need to anoint Himself. The clue I believe is staring us right in the face, in the very title of Jesus, "Christ", which all Christians share, along with election for kingship and priesthood at his "right and left" (though it seems not all are given that privilege, which I find an interesting note to make).

But regardless, nobody is a "brother of God", for that would be what true coequality is. And no man nor spirit can be equal to God.


However, I can concede on a point of view that one "may" justify praying to Jesus, even if not God, as scriptures do use phrases which can be translated to say he is "worshipped", and he 'has' been given "all" authority (with exception to authority over God himself, as was mentioned by Paul)...

I don't feel comfortable with assuming God would be happy with me praying to Jesus, however, but I 'can' see why others would be, even if they were not Trinitarian.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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Re: The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan? (A Commentary)

#23 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

#9 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 4 months ago

Stranger wrote: ↑4 months ago
Proselytiser of Jah wrote: ↑4 months ago
Jesus always says "he speaks God's words and not his own", which to me a differentiation between, not merely of the Son and the Father, but the Son and God (in Jesus' own words).
Hi Proz,

Are you saying that Jesus' own words are not God's words? And if so, which words in the Bible are His and which ones are God's?

No, you misunderstood me, I said it was the other way around.

I didn't insert words into Jesus' mouth, I was quoting Jesus directly who said "judge for yourselves whether I speak from myself OR from God - John 7:17

Hi Proz,

Concerning Jn 7:17, what you're not realizing and trust me it's not just you is that what Jesus is actually saying is that "He has the Words of God in His Mouth and that He is challenging unbelievers to know that Him and God are one and it's not just His own teaching but Both Christ and God. (Jn 7:18)


Stranger, (2Jn 9)

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Re: The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan? (A Commentary)

#24 Post by apollos0fAlexandria » 1 month ago

Stranger wrote: 1 month ago Concerning Jn 7:17, what you're not realizing and trust me it's not just you is that what Jesus is actually saying is that "He has the Words of God in His Mouth and that He is challenging unbelievers to know that Him and God are one and it's not just His own teaching but Both Christ and God. (Jn 7:18)
Amen brother.

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Re: The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan? (A Commentary)

#25 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 1 month ago

I'm afraid I have to 100% disagree with everything that has just been said. I find it's just a blatant contradiction, I'm sorry.

Jesus said God's teachings are not from himself or his own originality, this means they are of two different minds, two different beings. Jesus said he wanted to do the Father's will above his own, even though the Father's will was not the Son's will. The Father is greater than him, Jesus is not good, only the Father is.

And that's the simple matter of the facts.

Anything else is just eisegetical contrivance. Blue is blue, red is red.

I don't wish to be contentious, pushy, or judgemental upon anyone, but merely, I cannot help but point out what I find to be absolute contradictions in people's statements here against clear and uncomplicated scripture. Jesus spoke plainly. The Father is greater, their thoughts, knowledge and wills are not the same.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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Re: The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan? (A Commentary)

#26 Post by goghtherefore » 1 month ago

Luke 22: 41...:

“Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

...
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

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Re: The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan? (A Commentary)

#27 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 1 month ago I'm afraid I have to 100% disagree with everything that has just been said. I find it's just a blatant contradiction, I'm sorry.

I already knew that Proz, you know I used to believe in what you call Arianism but the name never mattered to me anyway, it's just the way I believe. I just couldn't see the Divinity of Christ it didn't make sense to me, there's no way Jesus could ever be over or even even with Jehovah, Jesus has always and always will (well since he was created of course) have a thumb or a finger on Him and really when you get down to it His name should have just been "Junior".

I decided to get out of those dungeons that you're in built by man's hands, I've been all through them just like you go through them now. I told you what I know you don't realize so it was no surprise that you disagree. It took me a very long time to finally bend a knee to the Lord Jesus Christ. That's really the only difference I see in our views Proz.


Stranger, (Isa 45:23)

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Re: The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan? (A Commentary)

#28 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 1 month ago

Stranger wrote: 1 month ago
Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 1 month ago I'm afraid I have to 100% disagree with everything that has just been said. I find it's just a blatant contradiction, I'm sorry.

I already knew that Proz, you know I used to believe in what you call Arianism but the name never mattered to me anyway, it's just the way I believe. I just couldn't see the Divinity of Christ it didn't make sense to me, there's no way Jesus could ever be over or even even with Jehovah, Jesus has always and always will (well since he was created of course) have a thumb or a finger on Him and really when you get down to it His name should have just been "Junior".

I decided to get out of those dungeons that you're in built by man's hands, I've been all through them just like you go through them now. I told you what I know you don't realize so it was no surprise that you disagree. It took me a very long time to finally bend a knee to the Lord Jesus Christ. That's really the only difference I see in our views Proz.


Stranger, (Isa 45:23)
You seem to be greatly mistaken.

I have not sidelined Jesus like the GB of the JWs have.

I do bow to Jesus... never said I didn't. He is my Lord and King. Merely I recognise his own words and his relation to the Father, and submission to the Father. It is BECAUSE I bow to Lord Jesus and obey him to the letter, that I see things the way I do.


I bow to Jesus, Jesus bows to God.

"But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God". - 1 Corinthians 11:3

"For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ." - 1 Corinthians 15:27



I believe Christ is divine, that doesn't mean he's God, or a part of God. I am in no dungeon built by men's hands, I have studied the scriptures for 'myself' objectively, for what they say. And it is my opinion that the Trinity is the construct built by mans hands.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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Re: The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan? (A Commentary)

#29 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 1 month ago I do bow to Jesus... never said I didn't. He is my Lord and King. Merely I recognise his own words and his relation to the Father, and submission to the Father. It is BECAUSE I bow to Lord Jesus and obey him to the letter, that I see things the way I do.

That's great Proz, seems Love is showing you the way it just hasn't taken you all the Way yet so I won't give up on you and I know Jesus won't either.


It was my understanding that you didn't worship Jesus according to your own words, but now you're telling me and the World that you do, so I consider that progress.


I hope you're having a nice weekend I know I am, the Spanish angel I have just met recently has really got me in a good mood, yes Sir!


Stranger, (1Jn 4:16)

apollos0fAlexandria
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Re: The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan? (A Commentary)

#30 Post by apollos0fAlexandria » 1 month ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 1 month ago ... Jesus is not good ...
Is this a typo PoJ? I'm hoping it is.

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