The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan? (A Commentary)

[Proselytiser of Jah]

... Jesus is not good ...

Is this a typo PoJ? I'm hoping it is.

It's a direct quote. I speak the Lord's words, not my own.

"As Jesus started on His way, a man ran up and knelt before Him. “Good Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone" - Mark 10:17-18

[apollos0fAlexandria]

Πάτερ ἄφες αὐτοῖς οὐ γὰρ οἴδασιν τί ποιοῦσιν

[Stranger]

Mark 10:17

Hi Proz,

Let's see if we can get some correlation, the rich man was running toward Jesus like, let's say, he felt his time was up and his sins most likely mounted to the heavens.

Now let's check out the wording in the Bible just before the man approached Jesus (KJV -" And when he was gone forth into the way...") Mr 10:17 KJV

Now let's find a matching scripture in the Old Testament. The one I found is (Ps 25:8), and would also consider it a bullseye. Can you think of any other that match so close or even closer? If not, are you with me so far?


Reaching out for the touch of Christ. "Lord please lead us on"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKLb6rz7cl8


Stranger, (Jn 14:23)

[Proselytiser of Jah]

Mark 10:17

Hi Proz,

Let's see if we can get some correlation, the rich man was running toward Jesus like, let's say, he felt his time was up and his sins most likely mounted to the heavens.

Now let's check out the wording in the Bible just before the man approached Jesus (KJV -" And when he was gone forth into the way...") Mr 10:17 KJV

Now let's find a matching scripture in the Old Testament. The one I found is (Ps 25:8), and would also consider it a bullseye. Can you think of any other that match so close or even closer? If not, are you with me so far?


Reaching out for the touch of Christ. "Lord please lead us on"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKLb6rz7cl8


Stranger, (Jn 14:23)

Appreciate this thread being reopened.



I do understand, Stranger, yes. But the reason I disagree on this meaning Jesus is God, is because of his plain words, as I said.

He said his teachings were "not" his own. So there would be a contradiction in my opinion.


So, in this respect... why are prophecies that speak of YHWH applied to Jesus? Because it can't be denied. Jesus is called alpha omega, and has direct titles of God applies to him like fine shepherd, and saviour, and other verses. I've examined these indeed.

For example, it's like when Isaiah (or Elijah?) said "make way for YHWH", and it was applied to Jesus in the NT. I can list many scriptures where Jesus has God's name, and titles and prophecies regarding God's own actions applied to him.


But the way I reason, is that God was "in Jesus", rather than Jesus being God himself, so Jesus "carries God with him" by being his agent, and having God's power reside in him, just as it later did with the Apostles;

“…so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one” – John 17:21-22

"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves". - John 14:11

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work".- John 14:10

This in Jewish theology is called "Sheliah" where "a person becomes that individual". This was Jewish culture. Even Satan is called Yahweh at one point.

“When he entered Capernaum, an army officer came to him, pleading with him and saying: “Sir, my servant is laid up in the house with paralysis, and he is suffering terribly””. – Matthew 8:5-6

“When he had completed what he had to say to the people, he entered Capernaum. Now an army officer’s slave, who was dear to him, was seriously ill and about to pass away. When he heard about Jesus, he sent some elders of the Jews to him to ask him to come and make his slave well”. – Luke 7:1-3

So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak… Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome…. In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel; as a man he struggled with God. He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. He found him at Bethel and talked with him there—YHWH the God of armies, YHWH is his memorial name”. – Genesis 32:24, 28, Hosea 12:3

“My heart is stirred by a noble theme as I recite my verses to the king… God is your throne/your throne O God forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you above your companions with the oil of joy“. – Psalm 45:1, 6

Then Satan stood up against Israel and incited David to number Israel.  So David said to Joʹab and the chiefs of the people: “Go, count Israel from Beʹer-sheʹba to Dan; then report to me so that I may know their number.” – 1 Chronicles 21:1, 2

The anger of YHWH again blazed against Israel when he incited David against them, saying: “Go, take a count of Israel and Judah.” – 2 Samuel 24:1

These things are explained by the historical Jewish theology of Sheliah.

“In Jewish law, a shaliaḥ (Hebrew: שָלִיחַ, [ʃaˈliaχ]; pl. שְלִיחִים‎, sheliḥim [ʃliˈχim] or sheliah, literally “emissary” or “messenger”) is a legal agent. In practice, “the shaliaḥ for a person is as this person himself.”Accordingly, a shaliaḥ performs an act of legal significance for the benefit of the sender, as opposed to him or herself”. – Wikipedia on Shaliah

“The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another (the principal), and thereby legally binding the principal in his connection with a third person. The person who binds a principal in this manner is his agent, known in Jewish law as sheluaḥ or sheliaḥ (one that is sent): the relation of the former to the latter is known as agency (sheliḥut). The general principle is enunciated thus: A man’s agent is like himself“. – Jewish Encyclopedia

I would argue Wholistic Application, that how Jesus is described fits into the style of the Hebrew writing as it was for thousands of years.

The Jewish elders “were” the Roman officer because they spoke on his behalf
The angel who wrestled Jacob “was” God because he acted as his ambassador
The three angels to visit Abraham “were God”, as they were messengers of him
“God struck” Job because He allowed Satan to do so
Moses “was God” to Aaron and the Egyptians because he was the agent of His miracles and plagues
The judges of Israel “were God” as they represented his justice
The kings of Israel “were God” because they sat on “God’s throne”
Jesus “is God” because he is God’s Anointed One, representing Him as his everlasting king, prophet, messenger, judge and high Priest


So these things are applied to Jesus, just as the prophets and kings of old were all called "god", "christ (messiah/anointed)" and "lord".

“He gives his king great victories; he shows unfailing love to his anointed (Messiah/Christ), to David and to his descendants forever” – Psalm 18:50

“My heart is stirred by a noble theme as I recite my verses for the king… You are the most excellent of men and your lips have been anointed (Messiah/Chirst) with grace, since God has blessed you forever… Your throne, O God/God is your throne, forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of exultation“. – Psalm 45:1-2, 6-7 (this is written to David or Solomon)

“Afterward, David’s conscience was stricken because he had cut off the corner of Saul’s robe. So he said to his men, ‘YHWH forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, YHWH’s anointed (Messiah/Christ)…”. – 1 Samuel 24:5-6

“When Abigail saw David, she quickly got off the donkey, fell facedown, and bowed/worshipped (proskuneó) before him. She fell at his feet and said, “My lord (adoni/kurios), may the blame be on me alone, but please let your servant speak to you; hear the words of your servant”. – 1 Samuel 25:24

“YHWH answered Moses, “See, I have made you God (elohim/theon) to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet… – Exodus 7:1, 16

“Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I said you are gods (theos)‘?”. – John 10:34

“And the angel of YHWH appeared to Gideon and said, ‘YHWH is with you, O mighty man of valor.” ‘Please, my Lord (adoni/kurios),’ Gideon replied… YHWH turned to him and said, ‘Go in the strength you have and save Israel from the hand of Midian. Am I not sending you?’” – Judges 6:12-14

To reason on the framework we try to apply to Jesus to prove he's God by sch verses, in the contradiction of others, I would then argue, we would have to apply such logic universally to the Bible, and then everyone becomes God as a result, even Satan.

But recognising the language style, give us a far more reasonably and sensible explanation for these "contradictions" where Jesus looks like he's God at one moment then totally isnt' at another moment.

[Stranger]

But recognising the language style, give us a far more reasonably and sensible explanation for these "contradictions" where Jesus looks like he's God at one moment then totally isnt' at another moment.

I wasn't through explaining why Jesus said "there is none good but one, that is God" and now you want me to explain the now you see Him now you don't trick.

Not so fast Proz, Like I said I'm out of those dungeons and I keep the gates to them closed. Jesus is my teacher now and all I need is His Word.

Did you read my sign off scripture? Whose words are those? (Jn 14:23) Was that a commandment from the father for Jesus to say that or was that Jesus taking it upon Himself to let it be known just what the Father will do?



Stranger. (Jn 5:17)

[Proselytiser of Jah]

But recognising the language style, give us a far more reasonably and sensible explanation for these "contradictions" where Jesus looks like he's God at one moment then totally isnt' at another moment.

I wasn't through explaining why Jesus said "there is none good but one, that is God" and now you want me to explain the now you see Him now you don't trick.

Not so fast Proz, Like I said I'm out of those dungeons and I keep the gates to them closed. Jesus is my teacher now and all I need is His Word.

Did you read my sign off scripture? Whose words are those? (Jn 14:23) Was that a commandment from the father for Jesus to say that or was that Jesus taking it upon Himself to let it be known just what the Father will do?



Stranger. (Jn 5:17)

I'm not pulling a trick I just honestly responding to the scripture you quoted, and the logic I assumed you to be applying.

If I'm to understand, you quoted that verse to show YHWH spoke those words, yes? And are pointing out Jesus also spoke those words? And therefore you are drawing an equality?

Or did I misread?

[Proselytiser of Jah]

Whose words are those? (Jn 14:23) Was that a commandment from the father for Jesus to say that or was that Jesus taking it upon Himself to let it be known just what the Father will do?

The words are Jesus' but the teachings are not.

The Father commanded Jesus what to say, and therefore, Jesus says it, and thus they become "Jesus' words" (in a literal vocal sense), but they originate with the Father and his will, none of which are Jesus' own original ideas.

So the answer is I have for you, ultimately. They are the Father's words, and not the Son's (minus the factor that Jesus says "my Father will love", as the Father doesn't have a Father), but the common sense answer, in unified context I would say, is that Jesus was saying:

"If anyone loves me and listens to the words coming out my mouth that my Father has given me to say, then my Father will love him".

[Stranger]

If I'm to understand, you quoted that verse to show YHWH spoke those words, yes? And are pointing out Jesus also spoke those words? And therefore you are drawing an equality?

Hi Proz,

Sorry, I had to go to bed last night.

That is one way to put it, but not the way it fully means. If you go down a couple of scriptures you will find some more words of Christ while he was still yet present.

There is a distinction made in (Jn 14:24) that proves inequality and the lesser of equality would seem to be lying on the Father side if you are listening to Jesus.

Now you will hit me back with a scripture most likely (John 14:28), but bear in mind that while Christ was still present on Earth He has to show obedience for an example of things to come.


Stranger, (Jn 16:26)

[Proselytiser of Jah]

Now you will hit me back with a scripture most likely (John 14:28), but bear in mind that while Christ was still present on Earth He has to show obedience for an example of things to come.


Stranger, (Jn 16:26)

I agree he had to be obedient, but this tells me he isn't equal. An equal person doesn't have to "obey" someone else. You are correct in that I would cite "the Father is greater than I". I do not see that as some "temporary arrangement", which somehow only applies to his human nature, as he acts this way also in Heaven when he returns.

In my view, Jesus obeys God, 'because' he's not him. It's just the most common sense answer. To advocate a Trinity of equality on these scriptures we're discussing, is putting the cart before the horse.

We're starting out by saying" they are equal" (with no supporting scripture which states this) and then "forcing" that view onto the scriptures which say he isn't equal. Rather than viewing the scriptures which say they are not equal as the "anchor" of the truth to interpret all his sayings through plainly.

In other words, I feel its eisegesis. We decide that Jesus is God or co-equal with God, and 'then' we read the Bible with that conviction in mind, and try to do mental acrobatics to explain away all the scriptures that say he isn't... rather than just accepting the scriptures for what they are and having them inform us.

[goghtherefore]

Re: "...We decide that Jesus is God or co-equal with God,..."

It seems there are many different concepts of the Trinity. In what ways can the words equality and greater be understood?

The human family can be viewed as one; earthling humans are one family (as are other forms of creation). Many individuals make up the one human family and are all equal with respect to "value"/"preciousness" etc, yet are not equal in so many other ways (physical structure/abilities etc.)

If someone is capable of doing something no other can do, does this make them "greater"? Our heavenly Father is not capable of some things; He cannot lie and cannot die. Does this make Him not greater/lower than His only begotten Logos/Word who could do something The Father could not do: lowered himself to the man Jesus, capable of lying (yet proved sinless), and died.

...a few thoughts,

gogh