The Trinity: Given by God or Sourced by Satan? (A Commentary)

[Proselytiser of Jah]

Hi Proz,

Are you saying that Jesus' own words are not God's words? And if so, which words in the Bible are His and which ones are God's?

However, I can add to what I said in my last reply. Whilst Jesus speak's God's words, when giving us the commands his Father taught him to teach us to attain everlasting life, I in fact 'can' give you words of Jesus which were his own and not God's. I can think of a few options, but I can give you a really good one.

"Father, let this cup pass from me.. yet not as I will, but as You will" Matthew 26:39

Here, Jesus doesn't want to do the will of God the Father if he can get out of it, but he surrenders to God's will regardless. Jesus saying "let this cup pass" is his own words, and NOT God's words, because it was God's will that he would "drink that cup", and God wouldn't argue with himself, his will is perfect and consistent. Therefore, Jesus asking to get out of this situation, was a scenario where he spoke his own words and not God's.

[apollos0fAlexandria]

Now is it wrong to want to speak to Jesus? I don't think so, and I can't judge people who want to call out to him, Stephen did when he saw him moments before dying, though that was due to the fact that he literally saw him in front of him. Some Bibles insert the word "prayer", but the Greek doesn't use that word, it says "called out".

You said that there is no example of prayer to Jesus. Then you go onto cite Stephen talking to Jesus when he (Jesus) is in heaven. You say this is not prayer, but I don't see how that can be.

Also, you will likely say that "calling on Jesus' name" is not prayer either. What is it that you imagine the Christians were actually doing when calling on his name? Is it different from calling on the name of YHWH as found in Joel 2:32 and then applied to Jesus in Rom 10:13?

How is it that you personally "call on the name of Jesus"? Or would you say it's "safer" not to do this?

But ultimately, I go the safe route by listening to Jesus' words to the letter, who told me to pray to the Father only.

Can you quote me a scripture where Jesus says to pray to the Father only?

[Proselytiser of Jah]

Can you quote me a scripture where Jesus says to pray to the Father only?

Jesus' model prayer.

“….So then, this is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one”. – Matthew 6:9-13


Jesus directed how we should pray. He gave an example prayer. He said to the Father. And that's it, nothing else in there. If Jesus is the Son, and not the Father, and Jesus tells us to pray to the Father, then... he's not telling us to pray to him.


Like I said, Stephen "saw" Jesus, called out to him, because he literally saw him. It's apples and oranges. Sometimes prayer can be akin to "calling out" like in the scriptures you cited. But other times, not so, I could call out to you across the street, the same phrase "call out" would be used, but I'm not "praying" to you. It's a case of prayer sometimes being compared to calling out, but calling out doesn't always equate to prayer. It's a false dichotomy to say Stephen prayed to Jesus. And that is the only case when someone ever called out to Jesus when he wasn't physically present (and even that's pushing it, because Stephen saw Jesus literally).

Prayer is communication, I agree, but it is also acknowledgement of who you see as God, it's a very specific form of communication. If I asked you, "do you pray to angels? afterall it's just like calling someone on the phone", I'm sure you would say "no of course not" (at least I hope you'd say that).

So we need to define prayer, and not be hypocrites when we do.

The argument seems to be swaying left to right "it's ok to pray to someone who isn't God because it just means calling out" - "we can't pray to angels because they are not God, but we can pray to Jesus meaning he is God". We need to make up our minds on this.


We see no other times in scripture where people pray to Jesus, only to the Father, in "Jesus' name" (meaning authority).

Jesus also tells us, the time was coming that "nobody would ask him anything, but they would ask the Father directly".

John 16:16-18, 23-28: " Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”17 At this, some of his disciples said to one another, “What does he mean by saying, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,’ and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?”... In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete. 25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”


We see here, Jesus says when he returns to Heaven to the Father (his ascension) they will no longer ask Jesus for anything at all, but they will ask the Father directly, but "in Jesus' name", of which, Jesus explains just exactly what that means when he says "this does not mean I will ask the Father on your behalf", so he's giving us a definition here, that "praying through Jesus" is not "praying TO" Jesus, in some form of second hand communication system.

[apollos0fAlexandria]

Hi PoJ

I don't think it's ok to pray to someone who is not God, but I still don't think it's synonymous with "worship" - whether latreo or proskuneo.

Yes, Jesus gave an example of prayer, but I requested you show me a scripture that says that Jesus says you must ONLY pray to the Father exclusively. The model prayer is directed to the Father, but nowhere did Jesus say that the disciple MUST NOT pray to him even when he reshares his Father's glory in heaven. You are inferring that, but it's never stated.

With regards to playing it safe, there is a parable of Jesus that comes to mind where a guy thought he was playing it safe: Mat 25:24-30. I am in no way saying that you are like THIS slave, but only making the point that playing it safe is not the best option if the Bible says something different.

Apollos

[Proselytiser of Jah]

I don't think it's ok to pray to someone who is not God, but I still don't think it's synonymous with "worship" - whether latreo or proskuneo.

I find this personally to be a contradictory statement. If prayer is not worship, then it should be ok to pray to anyone. Saying otherwise would indicate to me it was a holy act reserved only for God, or perhaps those who he approves of being prayed to (in which case you might say it's approved of Jesus too), but something that is done only exclusively to God, I would say was worship by definition.

Yes, Jesus gave an example of prayer, but I requested you show me a scripture that says that Jesus says you must ONLY pray to the Father exclusively. The model prayer is directed to the Father, but nowhere did Jesus say that the disciple MUST NOT pray to him even when he reshares his Father's glory in heaven. You are inferring that, but it's never stated.

I quoted John where Jesus said the Apostles wouldn't ask Jesus for anything, but only the Father. And him telling is what "in his name" entails, and what it doesn't.

We could "claim" Christians prayed to Jesus, but this is an assumption from silence, just as much as you could say I was arguing that they didn't from silence.

I'd rather go with the assumption they didn't based on the examples in scripture, rather than the assumption that they did, which cannot be found in any examples in scripture, but have more evidence stacked against this notion from what "is" there.


There are many things not in scripture detailed in terms of how to act in life, but we can attain principles from it. From what I see, it was a given that God is the only recipient of prayer.

However, because you also now claim God is not the only recipient of prayer, because it's not an act of worship, this then would damage the argument of Jesus being God, for no longer can we say only God can be prayed to, as it's not a form of worship (ie: act of exclusive devotion to God).

[apollos0fAlexandria]

I don't think it's ok to pray to someone who is not God, but I still don't think it's synonymous with "worship" - whether latreo or proskuneo.

I find this personally to be a contradictory statement. If prayer is not worship, then it should be ok to pray to anyone. Saying otherwise would indicate to me it was a holy act reserved only for God, or perhaps those who he approves of being prayed to (in which case you might say it's approved of Jesus too), but something that is done only exclusively to God, I would say was worship by definition.

I think you may be forgetting that "worship only God" is not the only restriction we are under. The reason I don't pray to anyone other than God is based on the Bible injunction not to communicate with spirits and/or the dead.

Who else are you thinking might be a target of prayer? There's no need for me to pray to PoJ because I can just communicate through the forum

[Proselytiser of Jah]

I think you may be forgetting that "worship only God" is not the only restriction we are under. The reason I don't pray to anyone other than God is based on the Bible injunction not to communicate with spirits and/or the dead.

By this standard, the Apostles sinned and so every other prophet in scripture when they spoke to angels. We are forbidden to speak to spirits of the dead, because the dead are "dead", it's demons who pose themselves as the undead which is why it's a dangerous practice, not just because they are "spirits". Same as witchcraft, it's summoning upon the power of evil.

So I don't really think that's a good argument against praying to other beings than God, if prayer is not to be said an exclusive form of worship to God.

Is the sin "praying" to spirits (if so why? If prayer is just communicating no different to word of mouth, only with one's mind) or is not prayer in itself, but just the act of talking to spirits? In which case, all the holy men in the Bible have sinned, by speaking to both angels and demons (when exercising them out of people).

When the angel visited John, I guess he should have covered his mouth, eyes and ears, no?

[apollos0fAlexandria]

I think you may be forgetting that "worship only God" is not the only restriction we are under. The reason I don't pray to anyone other than God is based on the Bible injunction not to communicate with spirits and/or the dead.

By this standard, the Apostles sinned and so every other prophet in scripture when they spoke to angels. We are forbidden to speak to spirits of the dead, because the dead are "dead", it's demons who pose themselves as the undead which is why it's a dangerous practice, not just because they are "spirits". Same as witchcraft, it's summoning upon the power of evil.

So I don't really think that's a good argument against praying to other beings than God, if prayer is not to be said an exclusive form of worship to God.

Is the sin "praying" to spirits (if so why? If prayer is just communicating no different to word of mouth, only with one's mind) or is not prayer in itself, but just the act of talking to spirits? In which case, all the holy men in the Bible have sinned, by speaking to both angels and demons (when exercising them out of people).

When the angel visited John, I guess he should have covered his mouth, eyes and ears, no?

Oh, I'd speak to an angel if I were visited. I thought we were talking about prayer.

Besides, I might not even know it was an angel visiting (Heb 13:2), so the game would be kinda rigged in that case.

[Proselytiser of Jah]

Oh, I'd speak to an angel if I were visited. I thought we were talking about prayer.

Besides, I might not even know it was an angel visiting (Heb 13:2), so the game would be kinda rigged in that case.

I was just pointing out the inconsistency of the argument that prayer is nothing more than communication.


If prayer cannot be allowed to be done to anyone but God, then it is not mere communication by definition, but something else.

[goghtherefore]

Re: "prayer"

In courtroom settings lawyers use the word "pray". (Making request to the judge.)

.02

gogh