John 1:3

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Stranger
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John 1:3

#1 Post by Stranger » 8 months ago

"...Apart from Him not even one thing came into existence" (NWT 2013)


"All things were made by Him, and without HIM was not any thing made...." (KJV)

Now, I know there are quite a few here that have been taught and trained to believe otherwise. I was one of you at one time for an extended period of time and I thought it ridiculous for anyone to think Jesus yielded such.... Almightyness* (couldn't think of a fitting word so I made one up). That was then however and this is now.

Here's the deal, I've got the Bible (the Word of God) telling me, not one thing, nil, nadda, nothing was in existence unless Jesus who has many Names and Titles, so call Him whatever you want to made it so. That's as simple as it gets. Whether it's in Genesis or all the way through to Revelation, Jesus made it.

Now, I find it ridiculous when people say no He didn't create everything. And if I listened to them long enough I wouldn't know of anything He created because the very same ones that are telling me He didn't create all things never admit to anything that he actually created.


Stranger, (1Cor 8:6)

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Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: John 1:3

#2 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 8 months ago

Bare in mind the KVJ isn't accurate (yet one of the many more reasons to reject that awful translation), the NWT is closer to most of the other translations you'll find, this isn't a Watchtower/NWT thing. It's what the original Greek renders.


https://biblehub.com/john/1-3.htm

"Through him", not "by" him. This harmonises with Proverbs 8, with Jesus as the skilled craftsman, the tool which the Father used to accomplish/assemble his creative works.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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Re: John 1:3

#3 Post by Stranger » 8 months ago

Stranger wrote: 8 months ago Now, I find it ridiculous when people say no He didn't create everything. And if I listened to them long enough I wouldn't know of anything He created because the very same ones that are telling me He didn't create all things never admit to anything that he actually created.

What is it that He created then Proz?, keeping in mind what I said above?



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apollos0fAlexandria
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Re: John 1:3

#4 Post by apollos0fAlexandria » 8 months ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 8 months ago ... the NWT is closer to most of the other translations you'll find ...
Hi PoJ

As a generality I disagree. There is one thing we know for sure - the NWT committee undertook this project with a very firm preceding bias. It's impossible to dispute this because their non-traditional doctrine had been well documented over many decades leading up to the release of the NWT. They wrote the translation of the NT first. Why?

I speculate on this matter within this article and haven't yet had reason to back off the position:

articles/2018/07/02/fred-franz-divine-n ... criptures/

With all due respect to Jason BeDuhn (who is certainly well more qualified than me on translation issues in general), I have reason to disagree with his conclusions in a number of cases.

Now that they've rewritten the translation they have clearly made an active decision to no longer show where they insert words like [other] to align with a preconceived theology. (Col 1:16)

This neither proves nor disproves the theology itself IMO, but it does clearly demonstrate bias.

That may well be true of KJV too, but I just am not aware of what equivalent biases would look like for those guys.

My heart fully agrees with Stranger's OP.

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Re: John 1:3

#5 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 8 months ago

apollos0fAlexandria wrote: 8 months ago
Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 8 months ago ... the NWT is closer to most of the other translations you'll find ...
Hi PoJ

As a generality I disagree. There is one thing we know for sure - the NWT committee undertook this project with a very firm preceding bias.
Apollos
Oh for sure, when I said what I said, I wasn't talking about the entire NWT, only that specific verse. I came to my conclusion on my above statement on the basis of comparing that verse with the manuscripts and all the other Bible translations next to it (which I linked). :)

As for the divine name in the NT, it's questionable, because we don't have any textual proof that it was there, with exception to where we see the OT quoted, so in those quotes alone I agree with its insertion. But we have no other sources for where the name is inserted anywhere else (with exception to the recent Hebrew Gospels from the 15th century which are very interesting).

But yes, in other places, the NWT makes some very sneaky edits which changes the context of some verses to suit doctrine (such as changing "for" as "at" in the verses about the Babylonian 70 years, and inserting "covenant" in the Lord's Supper passages on Kingship, in place of "appoint", to force an artificial connection with election and the emblems).
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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Re: John 1:3

#6 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 8 months ago

Stranger wrote: 8 months ago
Stranger wrote: 8 months ago Now, I find it ridiculous when people say no He didn't create everything. And if I listened to them long enough I wouldn't know of anything He created because the very same ones that are telling me He didn't create all things never admit to anything that he actually created.

What is it that He created then Proz?, keeping in mind what I said above?
I would say, nothing.

The Greek doesn't say Jesus "created" anything. All things "though" Jesus, not "created by" Jesus. All things were "through him", in that he acted as God's workman.

I linked a video in another thread which explains it better than I. But in short, there are two separate Greek words used in our modern translations for "create" and "made". But I can link it here too. The Father is said to "create", in Hebrew and Greek, but the Son is only ever said to "assemble" from what is already made.



Context and language both reveal, the Son has not "created" a single thing, only the Father has, but "through" the Son as his medium. YHWH the Father alone, "stretched out the Heavens" (Isaiah 44:24), but "through Jesus" as his skilled craftsman (Proverbs 8:30). Cause and effect, proxy.

We shouldn't read these verses with a modern mentality, but with the mindset and language paradigm of the authors who wrote at the time. Several people in scripture all look like "one person" and "one action", ie; the Jewish Elders and the Roman officer look like one person performing the same action, but it's a language expression. One person acts through another, and so they are "attributed" those actions via proximal relationship.

See for example:

“When he entered Caperʹnaum, an army officer came to him, pleading with him and saying: “Sir, my servant is laid up in the house with paralysis, and he is suffering terribly””. – Matthew 8:5-6 -compare- “When he had completed what he had to say to the people, he entered Ca·perʹna·um. Now an army officer’s slave, who was dear to him, was seriously ill and about to pass away. When he heard about Jesus, he sent some elders of the Jews to him to ask him to come and make his slave well”. – Luke 7:1-3

"So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak… Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome…. In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel; as a man he struggled with God. He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. He found him at Bethel and talked with him there—YHWH the God of armies, YHWH is his memorial name”. – Genesis 32:24, 28, Hosea 12:3

"Then Satan stood up against Israel and incited David to number Israel.  So David said to Joʹab and the chiefs of the people: “Go, count Israel from Beʹer-sheʹba to Dan; then report to me so that I may know their number.” – 1 Chronicles 21:1, 2 -compare- "The anger of YHWH again blazed against Israel when he incited David against them, saying: “Go, take a count of Israel and Judah.” – 2 Samuel 24:1

“So Satan went out from the presence of YHWH and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head” – Job 2:7 -compare- "All his brothers and sisters and all his former friends came to him and ate a meal with him in his house. They sympathized with him and comforted him over all the calamity that YHWH had brought upon him. Each of them gave him a piece of money and a gold ring". – Job 42:11


This language is consistent through scripture. Jesus is no different in this regard. Jesus is the "maker" because he is the "agent" which the Father used as a tool of his creation. Making the Father, God, the creator alone, and his Son the medium "through" which all things were made. There is not a single thing that Jesus wasn't used as the agent for, of course.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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Re: John 1:3

#7 Post by goghtherefore » 8 months ago

Re: "...the NWT makes some very sneaky edits which changes the context of some verses to suit doctrine ..."


Intentional omissions or intentional insertions?

viewtopic.php?t=5382


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Re: John 1:3

#8 Post by Stranger » 8 months ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 8 months ago I speculate on this matter within this article and haven't yet had reason to back off the position:

articles/2018/07/02/fred-franz-divine-n ... criptures/

Hi Apollos,

First let me say, salute to you, with a firm tap to the brim. I read that article about three years ago, along with many of your other reports and found nothing to dispute. I feel if I read them again I would appreciate them even more so. There was a time when I thought about leaving this blessed site, but then I read your write -ups and decided not to. Thanks for that, and thank you for all your work including, behind the scenes and here in person with us.

Best wishes to you and yours,

Stranger, (1Tim 3:9 KJV)

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Re: John 1:3

#9 Post by Stranger » 8 months ago

Stranger wrote: 8 months ago by Stranger » 6 minutes ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote: ↑5 hours ago
I speculate on this matter within this article and haven't yet had reason to back off the position:

articles/2018/07/02/fred-franz-divine-n ... criptures/
I made a posting mistake, the quote above was not from the proselytiser of Jah but from ApollosofAlexandria!

Here's the correction:
apollos0fAlexandria wrote: 8 months ago I speculate on this matter within this article and haven't yet had reason to back off the position:

articles/2018/07/02/fred-franz-divine-n ... criptures/

Stranger

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Re: John 1:3

#10 Post by Stranger » 8 months ago

[
Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 8 months ago I would say, nothing.

The Greek doesn't say Jesus "created" anything. All things "though" Jesus, not "created by" Jesus. All things were "through him", in that he acted as God's workman.

I linked a video in another thread which explains it better than I. But in short, there are two separate Greek words used in our modern translations for "create" and "made". But I can link it here too. The Father is said to "create", in Hebrew and Greek, but the Son is only ever said to "assemble" from what is already made.
Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 8 months ago Bare in mind the KVJ isn't accurate (yet one of the many more reasons to reject that awful translation),
High Proz,

That's okay Proz, you seem to appreciate the material the comes straight off the press from the printing house of the Vatican and that's fine if that's your preference.
I feel like you stepped out on a rotten limb Proz, or better said, further out on a rotten limb. You won't even give Christ credit for Christianity. That seems very anti- (hmm, what's the word I'm looking for, oh I know) Christ.....Eternal.



Here's a quote from the translators of the KJV: "Our adversaries do make so many and so various editions themselves do error so much about the worth and Authority of them."


For the record: for those Who believe John 1:1 trumps Gen 1:1 chronologically, so would John 1:2 and John 1:3.



Stranger, (Jhn 1:6 KJV)

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