CI wrote:
We know from Dan 7:1-8,17,23,14 that the beast of Rev 13:1,2 is made up of body parts of these beasts.
I would assume you mean to say specifically the "fourth wild beast" (and specifically its "horns") since it not only is the last of the four in this sequence found there at Daniel Chapter 7, but also is the only one foretold to continue producing newly emerging "horns" all the way to …"the time of the end"… according to verse 17 of Daniel Chapter 7. (Da 7:17)
Each head is a beast in its own right.
I see every reason to recognize this statement as accurate and scriptural, with accounts like Daniel 2:36-45 and Revelation 17:10 serving as confirmation of this.
While Daniel Chapter 2 AND 7 make it clear that all the world powers that would emerge between the time of the "fourth wild beast" and the "time of the end" would ultimately prove to be new manifestations of this same "fourth wild beast," (The Roman world power), Revelation 17:10, Daniel 7:8 and even many other scriptures like Jeremiah 15:9 begin directing our attention towards the specific NUMBER of world powers that would follow this "fourth wild beast" prior to the Millennial Reign. When we now factor in verse 11 of Revelation 17 into the equation and compare it with verse 8 of Daniel Chapter seven, we find confirmation that there would ultimately be four world powers that would appear on the earth after the emergence of this "fourth wild beast," or otherwise a total of "eight kings." The reason the scriptures (on the whole at least) are much more focused on the initial seven however is because they fall into the time period identified as "the appointed times of the nations." (Lu 21:24) (Da 4:23, 32) This is the time frame that is distinguished as when God's people would continue finding themselves in a situation of foreign "exile" and "captivity." (Jer 1:3)
In other words, unlike the initial seven, this "eighth king" would never enter into a covenant relationship with Jehovah, or otherwise never come to include kings that would qualify as "anointed shepherds" of Jehovah's people until the moment they violate his "holy covenant" and consequently suffer being destroyed and replaced eventually with a new world power. (Isa 44:28 45:1) (Da 11:30-32) Therefore since this mere "IMAGE of the wild beast" (like a kind of mere hollow reflection of it that nonetheless receives false worship also as an IDOLATROUS image?) never actually experiences a spiritual BIRTH, it by extension is never in a position to experience a spiritual DEATH. (Re 13:12) It is only ever in a position to experience a LITERAL death or destruction, thus it is set apart or distinguished from the "seven" foretold "births of the (figurative) "barren woman" that would unfold beginning with the year of "exile" that Jeremiah identifies in the opening words of his book. (609 BCE or otherwise the year "King Jehoiakim" began his reign) (Jer 1:3 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5) (Isa 54:1-4)
The account there at Daniel 7:12 helps us to understand that this final "8th king" is distinct also in the sense that it loses even the authority that was granted satan in the Garden of Eden when our fore-bearers chose him as their god or father over Jehovah. (Lu 4:5-7) But what is important to understand here is that this authority granted to satan (this "authority" of the "dragon" mentioned in accounts like Revelation 13:2) is NEVER utilized by these initial "seven kings" until they violate the holy kingdom covenant with spiritual "harlotry." (Isa 1:21) This is the moment when the substitution or exchange of power and authority mentioned in accounts like Daniel 11:31 or 2 Thessalonians 2:4 takes place in Jehovah's "sanctuary" or earthly "temple." (1 Cor 3:16, 17 6:15) Another way of wording this would be to say that with this tragic turn of events, the very positive things in connection with these "seven kings" or "beasts" covered in passages like the symbolic language of Daniel 4:20-22 and 7:4 now unfold in reverse order, and this is the case with ALL of these "seven kings" or world powers. The moment we come to grasp very key points such as this, we suddenly find ourselves in a position to begin genuinely comprehending what is being conveyed in scriptural statements like the following:
"The wild beast that you saw WAS, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction." (Re 17:8a)
"And there are seven kings, five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived,…" (Re 17:10)
We want to bear information like this in mind since as I will shortly demonstrate, it will soon prove very useful in actually understanding some of the issues you soon bring up here in your comments.
The 10 horns and crowns symbolize individual ruling entities. The number ten is symbolic but serves prophetic purposes for identifying the 8th king/beast which is the final one,
This is where you begin to lose me. What is it exactly about the scriptures you cite here that you could recognize as even beginning to support your claims in this case? For one thing there are at least three different "wild beasts" found in the scriptures in very different time frames that are pictured with these same "ten horns." (Da 7:7) (Re 13:1 17:3) Would this alone not already begin to present problems with the notion of them serving specifically or exclusively (as you say) "to prophetically identify the 8th king/beast which is the final one…"
see Dan 7:7,8,11,12,13,14. Rev 13:1,2 is what the conglomerate beast looked like in 1948.
The question I would pose to you here is—why exactly would you mention the year 1948 in connection with all this? Yes I realize that this year figures in prominently when it comes to "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine;" but can you direct our attention to any SCRIPTURES that would point to this year for any reason at all? (Mt 15:9) (Isa 8:20)
Revelation then homes in on one of the heads/beasts ... and I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth marvels at the beast. This slaughtered healed head/beast is identified in Revelation chapter 17, where John sees Babylon the Great, riding a beast that was very similar to the Rev 13:1,2 beast, but it is a description of how it looked late in the first century.
As I continue to demonstrate with the scriptures, we have all been heavily conditioned to overlook a very significant distinction between "Babylon the Great" and the "Great Harlot," and this continues to cause an incredible amount of confusion just as it is intended to. Babylon the Great obviously does not qualify as a "Great Harlot" when it is being ruled over by ones like the prophet Daniel and his three Hebrew companions, or "anointed shepherds" like "King Cyrus" of the Medo-Persian Empire along with Jews like Queen Esther and her uncle Mordecai. (Da 2:47-49) (Isa 44:28, 45:1) The "Great Harlot" clearly does not involve "holy ones" right among the "household of Caesar" who are all too eager to send their love and "greetings" to Christian congregations such as the Philippian one around the year of 60 CE. (Php 4:22) Just as indicated by scriptures like Revelation 17:10 or 18:2, it is only when these divinely appointed world powers experience the spiritual "fall" that is defined for us in accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 or 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 that they suddenly qualify as a kind of "Great Harlot" or even "disgusting thing." Compare (1 Joh 2:18) (Isa 1:21) (La 1:1, 4)
In other words, John does not actually (as you say) "see Babylon the Great riding a beast…" but rather a version of it that has resulted from yet another spiritual "fall." This broken holy marriage covenant always assigns a new identity to Babylon the Great which on this occasion is represented with a MUCH LONGER NAME. (Re 17:5) The spiritual adultery involved in violating the holy marriage covenant now qualifies this entity more specifically as precisely what John states in verse 5 of Revelation 17. As opposed to simply "Babylon the Great" which Jehovah actually becomes ANGRY for other ones taking credit for, (Da 4:29-32), we suddenly find a rather different name being assigned to this final foretold "wild beast" pictured there in Revelation 17. Moreover we can be certain it is no coincidence that this turn of events is represented as unfolding immediately after yet another "conquering" or spiritual death of Jehovah's "holy ones" is mentioned at Revelation 13:7. Let's not forget that if anything a LITERAL "killing" of Jehovah's "faithful stewards" or "two witnesses" always constitutes a "conquering" of Jehovah's ENEMIES! (Joh 16:33) While the designation of the "son of destruction" or "disgusting thing that causes desolation" is obviously touched on here in this case," (or otherwise a couple of the terms often utilized to point to this same "man of lawlessness" or "antichrist" phenomenon), the name the apostle John assigns to what is once again a very "harlotrous" entity found in Revelation 17 actually goes as follows:
…"Babylon the Great, the mother of the HARLOTS and the DISGUSTING THINGS of the earth." (Re 17:5)
By including the term "disgusting things" as well as even the notion of "catching sight" of this entity immediately afterwards in verse 6, our attention is being directed towards not only the symbolic spiritual language Jesus utters there at Matthew 24:15 and 16, but also by extension the account there in Daniel Chapter 11:30-32 that he refers to in this case. (Re 12:6) Once again we are brought right back to this issue of Jehovah's appointed shepherds violating his "holy covenant" with spiritual adultery and the "disgusting thing" or even figurative "daughter of Jehovah's people" that is always born from these illicit relations right inside Jehovah's very own "sanctuary." (Eze 23:1-4) (Jer 8:11) (Eze 23:1-4) The account there at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 ALONE confirms that this "holy covenant" that Jesus and John the Baptist were in the process or renewing yet again at that very moment would continue to be broken by "apostasy" on the part of Jehovah's shepherds also on future occasions.
In other words, the remaining three of the "seven kings" foretold for this period of foreign "captivity and exile" also AFTER this "fourth wild beast" would continue to violate the holy covenant that these "two witnesses" (or even "son of man") were yet again renewing and inaugurating at that very moment for the fifth of the "seven" foretold "times." (Eze 2:1) (Da 4:23, 32) This is precisely what accounts for prophesies we find in accounts like Revelation 11:3, 7, 11, 12 or Hebrews 9:26-28. Among the benefits of understanding these things is it suddenly becomes much easier to grasp the time frames being covered in accounts like the ones we are currently considering here in Revelation. My intention is to demonstrate this very thing with your next comments.
"When he asked about that beast he is told: Why is it you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of this woman and of the beast that is carrying her, which has seven heads and ten horns. The wild beast that you see, is ,and is not, and is about to ascend out of the abyss; the abyss signifying death as at Rom 10:7. But after it is raised it goes off into destruction. And those dwelling on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation, will marvel .
In the first century, this head/beast had been but was not. It no longer existed as a nation, but only as a scattered people. It ascended out of the abyss in 1947/48 when it was granted Palestine for a homeland.
John is told that the seven heads represent seven mountains where the woman sits on top. And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one is, [the Roman Empire], and one is still to come [the Anglo/American colonial two-horned beast] and when he shall have come he must remain a little while, (Rev 17:9,10). The messenger then focuses on the slaughtered head/beast of Rev 17:8, saying: And the beast that is but is not, is also itself an eighth [king] but springs from the seven and goes off into destruction.. The 'springs from the seven' refers to the UN mandate that brought the nation-state of Israel into existence. How did they manage this, since they were not part of the UN? It was at America's behest, see, Israelis Call For Rebuilding Their Temple and Returning to Animal Sacrifices - April 27, 2022."
First of all from everything I can see at least, the rendering or translation of Revelation 17:8 you are using in this case is only contributing to what I recognize personally as confusion here on your part. This is one of the most key scriptures in Revelation because it serves to establish not only exactly where the situation with God's nation at the end of the first century fits into the bigger picture here with this sequence of "seven kings," but also by extension establishes a reference point for the time frames of the "seven kings" and their corresponding "falls" that would manifest themselves both prior to this time (the end of the first century in this case) as well as afterwards. All the more reason therefore to make sure we are dealing with an accurate translation of this scripture.
"The wild beast that you see, is , and is not,"
Since the Greek word here immediately after the word –"see" (evidently more accurately translated as –saw rather than –see) is apparently –itan, and itan literally means-- WAS or even --IT was, the manner in which this verse is rendered in basically EVERY English translation other than the one you chose here seems to make much more sense. This would be very much like the following:
"The wild beast that you saw, it was, but now is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss." (Re 17:8)
Now since at the time that the Apostle John was writing Revelation "five" of these "kings" had already experienced the "fall" being spoken of here, would this information alone not already begin presenting difficulties with some of your assertions here? For example:
And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one is, [the Roman Empire], and one is still to come [the Anglo/American colonial two-horned beast] and when he shall have come he must remain a little while, (Rev 17:9,10).
Since the prophet Daniel explicitly identified the Babylonian world power as the first in this sequence of what would ultimately prove to be "eighth kings" that would exist as world powers prior to the Millennial Reign, and Medo-Persia and Greece obviously followed this first of the "seven kings," would Rome not qualify as the FOURTH world power in this foretold sequence? (Da 2:36-38) Admittedly the scriptures are indicating that ALL of the world powers from the fourth in this sequence to the time of the Millennial Reign would ultimately prove simply as new manifestations of this same "fourth wild beast." Nevertheless do you not already see a problem with asserting that "the Roman Empire" would qualify as the sixth in this sequence with the "Anglo-American" one as the seventh, and particularly since (right in this same verse) even the "FIFTH king" was described as having already experienced this "fall" by the end of the first century?
First of all this line of reasoning is completely overlooking that the British world power both came and went on the earthly scene before the Anglo-American one ever existed. But are you not actually endeavoring to skip over even TWO entire world powers here in this foretold sequence of kings? Perhaps we can begin getting to the bottom of this by considering the following question:
If you are to assert that at the time John was writing Revelation the "Roman World Power" qualified as the "king" identified with the words—"one is" there at Revelation 17:10, then just exactly how would you go about identifying the "fourth" and "fifth" of these "kings" who had already experienced both a rise and "fall" by this time? With that said, since the fact is that Rome actually DID exist as a world power at the time that John penned these words, have we not just now irrefutably confirmed that the "fall" being addressed here in connection with Babylon the Great is NOT a literal one, but rather the figurative or spiritual one defined for us in accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8? Have we not just conclusively established that the "fall" we are dealing with here is the one that always transforms what initially qualifies as a kind of "faithful town" into a great spiritual "prostitute"? (Isa 1:21) (1 Cor 6:15) (Re 17:10 18:2)
The fact is the moment we begin to incorporate things like this into the equation; there are MANY scriptures that suddenly begin to make perfect sense rather than remaining confusing and mysterious to us. These would include ones like Philippians 4:22 and 1 John 2:18. The reason there were "holy ones" right amongst the "household of Caesar" around the year 60 CE is the same reason such ones would ALWAYS serve as world rulers in this period of time identified also as the "appointed times of the nations" or "seven times." (Lu 21:24) (Da 4:23, 32) Just a few decades prior to this, two genuine prophets or "witnesses" of Jehovah had once again appeared on the earth to renew and inaugurate yet another holy kingdom or marriage covenant with a "few" people who were prepared to demonstrate genuine repentance for the PREVIOUS covenant that had yet again been violated with spiritual adultery. (Joh 19:15) (Re 11:3) (Mr 7:7) (Lu 22:28, 29) (He 9:16-18, 26-28) (Mt 3:1, 2 4:17 22:14)
The entire history of Jehovah's nation reveals that there is ALWAYS a rise of a new world power connected with these renewed holy covenants, and even if this new world power is assigned the very same name as the one that preceded it. Aside from taking the lead in restoring true worship to the earth, the first thing these new kings begin to do is render Jehovah's adverse judgments against the former world power and the false form of worship they are still engaged in. This is precisely the reason that the first century historian by the name of Flavius Josephus pointed out that it was an entirely new manifestation of Rome that appeared at Jerusalem in the year 70 CE to finish doing exactly that with all that now remained of the "fourth wild beast." At this point in time it was only a false or apostate form of Judaism that remained. However what a careful and cross referenced analysis of scriptures like 1 John 2:18 and Revelation 17:10 will reveal is that by only two or three decades later the holy kingdom covenant had been violated yet again on the part of Jehovah's newly appointed shepherds. So what the Apostle John is actually doing here in 1 John 2:18 is confirming the very same spiritual "fall" that he had ALREADY attested to in Revelation 17:10. Really then the only question at this point would be with regard to the king John identifies as "ONE IS" in this setting of 96 or so CE? As is always the case, coming to an accurate understanding of this involves heeding the counsel found in accounts like Romans 12:1, Isaiah 8:20 and Ephesians 6:18. Compare (Acts 17:11) (Mt 7:7, 8)
By all means let's endeavor to pick up the discussion with this question beginning with my next post.
Agape love;
Sol
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