BTG is Rome! (Preterist View)

This is the place to discuss anything to do with scriptural doctrine. It is the primary purpose of this site, and most discussions will be here.
Forum rules
Matt 18:6; Eccl 7:9; 1 Pet 4:8 (If you're not sure what they say then please hover over them with your mouse or look them up in your own Bible before posting)
Message
Author
User avatar
FriendlyDoggo
Posts: 293
Joined: 1 year ago

Re: BTG is Rome! (Preterist View)

#41 Post by FriendlyDoggo » 10 months ago

Hey everyone, give a look to this link:

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/ ... n-daniel-2

The reply of the brother in this site literally blew my mind!

Image

Jeremiah 18: 5-6 Then the word of the Lord came to me. He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel.(emphasis mine)

That's why BTG have descriptions that fit both Jerusalem and Rome!

Rev 17:9 9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. (emphasis mine)

Rome: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills_of_Rome
Jerusalem: https://www.biblestudy.org/maps/map-of- ... hills.html

Because THEY ARE THE TOES of the statue!

Rev 11:8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.(emphasis mine)

Jesus was killed in Jerusalem (Luke 13:33) under Roman rulership!
His conquest of Jerusalem, however, spelled the end of Jewish independence and the incorporation of Judea as a client kingdom of the Roman Republic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_o ... 20Republic.

In other words: the feet of the statue (wich are Rome and Israel) are also BTG!

That's amazing!
My english isn't very good, sorry any inconvenience.

User avatar
FriendlyDoggo
Posts: 293
Joined: 1 year ago

Re: BTG is Rome! (Preterist View)

#42 Post by FriendlyDoggo » 10 months ago

To make it easier to understand:

Head of Gold/Lion Beast: Babylon
Chest and of Silver/Bear Beast: Media-Persia
Stomach of Bronze/Leopard Beast: Greece
Legs if Iron/Terrifying Beast: Rome
Feet of Iron and Clay/Babylon the Great: Rome and Israel.

Daniel 2:44“In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

Jesus born around 4 or 6BC, and died around 30-36, this was during the rule of roman emperor Tiberius.

While all of those empires are all long gone, christianity is alive, so prophecy fulfilled!
My english isn't very good, sorry any inconvenience.

Bobcat
Posts: 4244
Joined: 8 years ago

Re: BTG is Rome! (Preterist View)

#43 Post by Bobcat » 10 months ago

Here is my understanding:

Code: Select all

Daniel 2			Daniel 7			Empire			Trend

Head of Gold			Lion Beast			Babylon			Highest Value
Chest of Silver			Bear Beast			Media-Persia		Less Value
Stomach of Bronze		Leopard Beast			Greece			Lesser Value
Legs of Iron			Terrifying Beast		Rome			Even Less Value
Feet of Iron/Clay		11th Horn			Anglo-American		Divided Kingdom

The "trend" in Daniel 2 is from greatest to least, with the end result being a 'divided kingdom.' Which, according to Jesus (Mt 12:25) is a fatal flaw.

The trend is not related to military strength, since each successive kingdom overcomes the previous one. Also, in Daniel 2, each successive kingdom is part of a greater whole, since they are all successive parts of a singular image.

Constable's Notes offers these further observations about the materials in Daniel chapter two:
Several features are noteworthy. First, the head is the only member of the body made of only one metal. All the other parts had more than one substance with the exception of the arms. For example, the upper torso was silver but bronze lower down. The same was true of the legs and feet. Second, there is a consistently decreasing value to the substances beginning at the top and proceeding to the bottom of the image. Third, the image was top-heavy. The specific gravity of gold is about 19, silver about 11, brass about 8.5, and iron 7.8. Fourth, the substances progress from the softest to the hardest, top to bottom. The feet are a non-adhering combination of very hard and hard but fragile materials. The clay in view may have been baked clay that the Babylonians used as tiles in construction projects.

Bobcat

Sevenz
Posts: 50
Joined: 1 year ago
Location: Texas

Re: BTG is Rome! (Preterist View)

#44 Post by Sevenz » 9 months ago

Hello Bobcat, and thank you very much for expressing your view in regards to the various sections of the colossal image described in chapter 2 of the book of Daniel. In particular, I see that you view the "Feet of Iron/Clay" in Daniel 2 as representing the same thing as the "11th horn" in Daniel 7, and you view these as representing the so-called "Anglo-American world empire". Well, you are certainly not alone thinking that way because it pretty much lines up with the view promoted by the Watchtower Society (WTS). Personally, I am saddened that both you and the WTS are entertaining a view that is as wrong as wrong can be. The WTS has failed to grasp the correct identity of both the 7th and the 8th kings of Bible prophecy. The WTS believes/teaches that the "time of the end" began 107 years ago (in the year 1914) and STILL don't know who the main characters are in the overall drama. The WTS has yet to learn that the 7th king is NOT the so-called "Anglo-American combine" and the 8th king in NOT the United Nations. For anyone who wishes to know, I can humbly tell you the correct identity of who the 7th king is and also what the 8th will be when it finally does arrive.

THE 7TH KING is presently on the scene and has been ever since the fall of the Roman Empire (in 476 B.C.E.) and although it is a "divided kingdom" it exercises jurisdiction the world over. It consists of every single government in existence. It is represented by the 10 toes of the colossal image described in Daniel 2. It is also represented by the 10 horns that arose on top of the head of the 4th beast described in Daniel 7. And, it is also represented by the 10 horns that are rooted in the 7th head of the beast described in Revelation 13.

THE 8TH KING is yet future. When it does arrive, it will exercise absolute world authority/dominion. It will be a one-world government, brought into existence according to the wishes of the majority of the world's nations who agree to relinquish their sovereignty (pictured by the diadems described in Revelation 13). It is pictured in Revelation 17 as a scarlet-colored wild beast whose 10 horns no longer have diadems. It is represented in Daniel 2 as a colossal male figure that ends up being divinely destroyed by a huge boulder. It is represented in Daniel 7 by the last/final/"11th horn" that arises on top of the head of the 4th beast, which is implied to arise sometime after the initial 10 horns had taken root/ruled. It is represented in Daniel 11:36-45 as the "king of the north" who will hear reports (vs. 44) that greatly enrages him, reports that speak of there being a certain people who steadfastly are refusing to acknowledge/recognize him as being the one and only sovereign. Those refusing to do so are of course REAL Christians who worship only their Creator, namely Jehovah God. Verse 45 describes this horrible monster as being poised to wage war against these peaceful God-fearing people, with the intention of annihilating them--entirely wiping them out of existence--thinking that by doing so "peace and security" will have finally become a reality. And he will in fact do it if it were not for Michael/Jesus coming to their rescue; see Daniel chapter 12 verse 1 and compare with Revelation chapter13 verses 15-17. This is the point in history when the war called "Armageddon" breaks out.
Here is my understanding:


Daniel 2 Daniel 7 Empire Trend

Feet of Iron/Clay 11th Horn Anglo-American Divided Kingdom
Thanks again for helping me to know what you believe, Bobcat. I wish that I could be of help to you.

Sevenz

.

Kerry Huish
Posts: 484
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: BTG is Rome! (Preterist View)

#45 Post by Kerry Huish » 9 months ago

Sevenz wrote: 9 months ago

THE 7TH KING is presently on the scene and has been ever since the fall of the Roman Empire (in 476 B.C.E.) and although it is a "divided kingdom" it exercises jurisdiction the world over. It consists of every single government in existence. It is represented by the 10 toes of the colossal image described in Daniel 2. It is also represented by the 10 horns that arose on top of the head of the 4th beast described in Daniel 7. And, it is also represented by the 10 horns that are rooted in the 7th head of the beast described in Revelation 13.
476 CE I think you mean, not BCE
Any roads, I would not consider 1500 years+ as a short time.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Sevenz
Posts: 50
Joined: 1 year ago
Location: Texas

Re: BTG is Rome! (Preterist View)

#46 Post by Sevenz » 9 months ago

476 CE I think you mean, not BCE
Yes, that's what I meant.

Thank you very much for noticing my mistake, Kerry.

I must have had "BCE" stuck in my noodles. :lol:

Sevenz

.

Sevenz
Posts: 50
Joined: 1 year ago
Location: Texas

Re: BTG is Rome! (Preterist View)

#47 Post by Sevenz » 9 months ago

Hello Kerry, once again. I was going to edit my post to you but ran out of time, so I will finish replying to you in this one.

You quoted the Bible as saying:
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while.
Yes, from 476 CE to today hasn't been what we would consider a "short while". However, I think the idea is that the rule of the 7th king would not last or be permanent.

Thank you for calling that scripture to mind, and it is something to be dealt with as we try our best to correctly understand God's Word.

Sincerely,

Sevenz

.

Kerry Huish
Posts: 484
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: BTG is Rome! (Preterist View)

#48 Post by Kerry Huish » 9 months ago

.
Revelation 17:10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

A little while compared to what...?
Surely in comparison with the other 7 mentioned Kings.

Kings of the earth emerged after the flood and particularly after the languages were confused at Babel.
The below charts assume that Egypt became world power during the time of 7 years of famine where the whole earth was sold to Egypt.
Egypt then became ruined as a world power during the Exodus.
After the Exodus, Assyria came to power conquering what was left of Egypt in 673 BCE

If we believe that the 7th head came to power in 476 CE - as per Sevenz interpretation - then this little while becomes 1500+ years - by far the longest little while on record...
.
Untitled1.png
Untitled1.png (7.3 KiB) Viewed 1129 times
.
If we believe that this 7th head is the Anglo-American World Power then the chart looks like this: -
.
Untitled2.png
Untitled2.png (7.25 KiB) Viewed 1129 times
.
This is why I cannot accept Sevenz' interpretation that the 7th head had arrived and has been controlling since 476 CE - it just does not make sense.
I do indeed subscribe to the thought that the 7th head is the Anglo-American power.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Kerry Huish
Posts: 484
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: BTG is Rome! (Preterist View)

#49 Post by Kerry Huish » 9 months ago

.
Following this through and giving a little more detail of the emergence of this 7th head - the Anglo-American world power...
Great Britain emerged as the small horn of Daniel 7:24 in the 1700's - defeating the Dutch, the French and the Spanish, humiliating 3 Kings or horns in fulfillment of Daniel 7:24: -

Daniel 7:24 And as for the ten horns, out of that kingdom there are ten kings that will rise up; and still another one will rise up after them, and he himself will be different from the first ones, and three kings he will humiliate.

viewtopic.php?p=49957#p49957

Part of the British Empire broke away and declared independence from the British Empire in 1776
WW1 broke out on the 28th July 1914 when Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia.
Great Britain officially entered the ring on August 4th and declared war on Germany.
Three and a half years or 42 months into the war we find that Great Britain is suffering great losses, they are almost at the point of losing the war.

This was in fulfilment of Revelation 13:3: -

Revelation 13:3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.

Although being fatally wounded, it was also foretold that it would be healed, it would recover.
How did this healing and recovery come about?

The United States declared war on Germany on April 6, 1917, more than two and a half years after World War I started.
To a large extent, the backup from the United States helped turn the war around.
This total turn around by back up from the west was also foretold in Daniel chapter 11: -

(Daniel 11:29, 30) “At the time appointed he will go back, and he will actually come against the south; but it will not prove to be at the last the same as at the first. And there will certainly come against him the ships of Kitʹtim, and he will have to become dejected…

Notice how other translations render this term, ships of Kit’tim: -

New International Version
Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant.

New Living Translation
For warships from western coastlands will scare him off, and he will withdraw and return home. But he will vent his anger against the people of the holy covenant and reward those who forsake the covenant.

History testifies that the United States became this foretold backup from the west.
After WW1 finished, Britain and American emerged ‘together’ as victors.

This development is also seen in Revelation 13: -

(Revelation 13:11, 12) And I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking as a dragon. And it exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and those who dwell in it worship the first wild beast, whose death-stroke got healed.

After WW1 the British monarchy was pushed further into the background and a new form of leadership arose, power was transferred to that of prime ministers.
These rule in the sight of the monarchy and exercise all authority before it.

What was the plan of action after WW1, what other developments does Revelation 13 predict?

(Revelation 13:14) And it misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that were granted it to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived.

After the War ended, Britain and America fabricated a new entity, the League of Nations. Its primary goals, as stated in its Covenant, included preventing wars through collective security and disarmament and settling international disputes through negotiation and arbitration.

The American President, Woodrow Wilson, put forth great efforts to establish and promote the League of Nations, for which he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in October 1919.

However, the United States never joined. Senate Republicans led by Henry Cabot Lodge wanted a League with the reservation that only Congress could take the U.S. into war. Lodge gained a majority of Senators. Wilson refused to allow a compromise and the needed 2/3 majority was lacking.
Did this League of Nations prevent wars and prove to be a place where international disputes were solved through negotiation?
Well, not many years later WW2 erupted, the League of Nations had failed.

Note what is said next: -

(Revelation 13:15) And there was granted it to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who would not in any way worship the image of the wild beast.

After WW2, Britain and American again emerged as victors. The same idea of the League of Nations was proposed, but this time the United States would join and support it, in effect giving breath or life to the idea, it was reborn as the United Nations.

This setup is further alluded to in Revelation 17: -

(Revelation 17:11) And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.

The United Nations today uses sanctions to restrict the buying or selling of any nation that does not play ball and accept its leadership and authority.
This tactic of the United Nations was also clearly foretold in the following verses: -

(Revelation 13:16, 17)  And it puts under compulsion all persons, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, that they should give these a mark in their right hand or upon their forehead, and that nobody might be able to buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.

Finally in Revelation 13 we are reminded that this is an expression of ‘imperfect human’ rulership.
It is not God's promised Kingdom nor is its rulership authorized by Him.
It is a counterfeit attempt of misleading people into trusting, not in Jehovah and His promises, but in ourselves.

(Revelation 13:18) Here is where wisdom comes in: Let the one that has intelligence calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is a man’s number; and its number is six hundred and sixty-six.
(Psalm 146:3) Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.
(Ecclesiastes 8:9) All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, [during] the time that man has dominated man to his injury.

viewtopic.php?p=37479#p37479

So in conclusion, the 7th head started to emerge in the 1700's from the ashes of the Roman empire, it received a sword stroke during WW1 which almost killed it, but it recovered with the help of the USA and is now fully active on the world scene as the Anglo-American world power.

Revelation 17:10...when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

Does it hold water?
We shall see...

Jeremiah 2:13 “My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Sevenz
Posts: 50
Joined: 1 year ago
Location: Texas

Re: BTG is Rome! (Preterist View)

#50 Post by Sevenz » 9 months ago

.

Hello Kerry! I could not be more impressed with your last two posts!!! And I say that because it's the best, most well-put-together, in-depth, thorough argument I have ever seen presented. However, there exists logical as well as solid scriptural reasons for knowing that it does NOT hold water. Due to my being tied up with other matters right now, I will have to return to this discussion later and explain where the leaks are in your argument. Please believe me when I say this: I truly do wish that your explanation had of been leak-proof, because it would mean that God's kingdom is that much closer to becoming a reality. I hope to return some time tomorrow, so stay tuned.

Thanks,

Sevenz

.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot], Semrush [Bot] and 1 guest