The Kingdom of the Heavens is like Leaven Mt13:33

[jo-el]

What happened in the early church is that some applied Jesus sacrifice in retrospect to Adam's sin and as that teaching took hold it had the effect of nullifying that which Jesus taught. James warned them about deceiving yourselves with false reasoning James 1:22,23. What was that false reasoning??? It doesn’t say, but whatever it was it took hold and caused them to ignore the things Jesus had taught. Similarly with universal atonement, those who believe in it generally react quite strongly when I say we the need to listen and apply to ourselves what Jesus taught. Why is that, what nerve does this touch, what is it that makes them react with indignation and anger even?

I agree completely with the end goal of your belief, which is to actually listen to and apply to ourselves what Jesus taught. Many Christians actually do this, or try to do this, but partly because of the doctrines we are taught from childhood and in some cases partly because of ourselves and outside influence, we may not fully apply ourselves and some who are nominally Christians even fail to realise they are doing anything wrong by co-habiting or getting divorced and remarried, etc. I think in short you basically object to the concept of once-saved-always-saved-so-I-can-do-whatever-I-want.

With some variation, I agree with your beliefs about the "atonement" as expressed here, although you have now also mixed in the word "universal" which is another doctrine altogether. I think you associate the doctrine of atonement with the danger of a path to disregarding Jesus commandments and you associate this with Christianity as a whole. Essentially though I think it is not the "atonement" as such, but "imputation" that you disagree with. The difference being that atonement is being at peace with God - as taught in scripture, whereas imputation (and please understand I am referring to it as a doctrine in isolation - I am not saying there is no basis whatsoever for forming this view) is the belief that Jesus own righteousness is fully credited to believers no questions asked. Please understand exactly what I wrote about imputed righteousness - it is the doctrine that Jesus OWN righteousness, is CREDITED to a man apart from anything but belief.
It seems very similar to, but is not the same as atonement.
Atonement is entirely scriptural and is the doctrine that can we have PEACE with God in Jesus Christ, however there are conditions attached - it is a New Covenant

If this is roughly a fair idea of what you are speaking of when you object to atonement as a doctrine, then I must add that I do not agree with the connections that you seem to use in order to arrive at this belief, or probably in reverse that the scriptures are being filtered through this belief. Please allow me to explain in brief - the cup that Christ spoke of, the account of Cain and Abel, the purpose of sacrifices, the translation of various scriptures and the parallel beliefs concerning Islam and Judaism are all being filtered through this idea that Christianity itself is founded on a single false doctrine - that is not correct. Christians are and have been by and large, with admittedly various errors becoming mixed in, teaching the gospel as it is defined in the scriptures. Christians have cherished, worked to preserve and spread the scriptures - Old and New. Christians have preached in the streets, helped the needy, taught Gods standards, sought after truth, waited for the Lords return - not always perfectly, but who else was listening to Jesus in at least this much? We are saved in the name of Jesus Christ, there is no other name. There is a New Covenant confirmed by his blood. There is cleansing and healing available in his blood to everyone who believes. Islam and Judaism do not know or teach ANY of this.

Applying what Jesus taught to myself I try not to make judgements with regard to Islam or any other religion – it’s not my place, God is their judge even as he is of me. What Jesus taught are universal truths that can be applied by anyone regardless of culture or religion; if Jesus says that the application of his sayings are the measuring line he will use when he returns, that’s fine by me.

Correct, we are no ones judge and yes broadly speaking Jesus taught truth that can be applied by anyone, but he also said it was 100% necessary to believe in Him and who He is. He said that more than once and so did the apostles. So we can see that "not judging" or as you say "extracting straws" is not the same thing as a belief that Islam and Judaism form a kind of subset of believers - that Christians, Jews and Islam are all one lump of flour, one melting pot. That simply cannot be the case - take Romans 10:

1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
]3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.[/i][/b]

I will not presume to provide a commentary/interpretation of the scripture for you, but I am trying to highlight the subject of Israel and the Law, how this is related to Christ as described by Paul, what leads to salvation and how that salvation and righteousness are a process - and that this necessitates the spread of THIS gospel as confirmed by the prophets.

[Get out of her]

Greetings Jo-el

Getting back to our discussion:
Before I get completely away from Amos 1, I am keeping in mind your concern about a potential problem with applying the number seven or even the "seven times" prophecy to the number of "strikings of the shepherd." This account here in Amos is actually among many that have brought me to this conclusion, and this is not simply because of its references or perceived connections to things like earthquakes and leprosy (and their apparent association with this same number in the scriptures), but also this scriptural reference here to "Takoa," or even "sheep raisers from Takoa," being added to this mix. Moreover all these things which are consistently found throughout the scriptures to be associated with a representation or even a context of a spiritual downfall or overthrow of the nation as well as the number seven, are also consistently associated with a "roar of Jehovah out of Zion or Jerusalem," or what is often referred to also with terms such as a "trumpet blast" or a blowing of a "horn." Jeremiah 6:1 in fact directly associates this "blowing of a horn" with "Tekoa." Tekoa was actually a Judean city and Judah was of course one of the primary representations of the shepherding class of Jehovah's people. The term "sheep raisers" seems to be yet another symbolic reference to the shepherding class in fact. In turn it is actually only the shepherding class that can technically qualify as Jehovah's "woman" since it is only the shepherding class that a marriage covenant is made with. By extension, while anyone can of course commit idolatry or otherwise rebel against Jehovah, it is technically only the shepherding class that can actually commit spiritual harlotry or adultery. This is one of the reasons I will insist that the "harlot" on the beast of Revelation does not simply represent false religion. There is only one nation or religion ("woman") that has ever even been in a position to qualify as a spiritual adulteress in a scriptural context, and that would be Jehovah's "woman." Just as you first would have to be clean and pure to become "leavened," or corrupted, you would also need to initially be actually in a marriage covenant with Jehovah to ever be among those "leaving the holy covenant." (Da 11:30)

In other words, when we bear in mind that the context of this "leaven" or symbol of spiritual corruption here in Matthew 13:33 was not only identified as something "hidden," but even hidden by a "woman," we might want to factor in all these points. With respect to the number seven being associated with all these things however, including even these trumpet blasts, isn’t it interesting that even in the Christian Greek scriptures our attention is directed to exactly seven of these "trumpet blasts" in Revelation. Trumpet blasts were of course always associated with a call to arms or a battle cry. To even "touch" Jehovah's "woman" is after all equated in the scriptures with "touching his eyeball." (Ze 2:8) To actually crawl into bed with her on the other hand, is an outright act of war. Once again there are consistent scriptural patterns found here throughout the scriptures on these topics and of course every topic ultimately. In fact if you were to take a closer look at the seven consecutive "seals, trumpet blasts, and bowls of Jehovah's anger I am confident that you will begin to see this very same pattern. These "trumpet blasts" always seem to coincide with a successful spiritual attack against the "holy ones" or Jehovah's "woman." Likely we would want to focus particularly on the last three as they (just as I'm suggesting with the "three large measures of flour"), are dealing specifically with the Christian era or "Kingdom of the heavens." (At least from my perspective) Even Revelation itself seems to make a clear distinction between the first four and the last three "trumpet blasts." (Re 8:12, 13) But once again, even with respect to the blowing of the horns or even "horn in Tekoa" that is associated with these spiritual overthrows of the "woman," and the subsequent "strikings" or "chastisings" that always follow it, we again find the number seven. (Le 26:18-28)

Once again you would be correct to accuse me of seeing these accounts in Revelation in a kind of multidimensional way as opposed to merely a linear one. I am suggesting that we actually begin stacking these "seven seals, trumpet blasts, and bowls" on top of each other, and reading them in a completely different way. In other words, if I wanted to get a better understanding of say perhaps the sixth foretold spiritual fall or apostasy of the shepherding class, I would begin with the events outlined under the "sixth seal," then I would skip over to the things foretold to accompany the sixth "trumpet blast," and finally the sixth "bowl" of Jehovah's anger against all the guilty parties involved in this spiritual adultery that remain unrepentant. I have found that by viewing these writings simultaneously in a linear and three dimensional manner, they begin to make much more sense to me. In turn it was the gradual recognition of the scriptural patterns of things like earthquakes or trumpet blasts in the settings or contexts of apostasies or rebellions of the nation in the first place, that prompted me to change the way I read the book of Revelation. Another reason that I have become more open to the idea of these "strikings of the shepherd" actually beginning with the spiritual adultery between Judea and Babylon, is I suspect due to what I understand to be represented by the "purchasing and eating" of this figurative food of the "Edomites." One of the things I have come to better understand from the figurative Edomites, is that the ancient Jews evidently never thought in terms of the coming of the messiah, but rather the next messiah.

The word Christ literally means –anointed one. The word Jesus on the other hand is evidently a reference to the time periods that Jehovah's anointed ones would actually be appointed (as opposed to merely anointed) to bring salvation or otherwise some form of deliverance to his people. Jesus in fact literally means -Jehovah's salvation, and it of course is not actually the name of the angel that Jehovah at some point assigned the role as the chief angel or "arch-angel" (arch literally means chief) that ultimately all of the anointed ones (Christs or Christians) would answer to. (Is 49:6, 7) His actual name was evidently Michael which is literally translated as- he who is like God. (Jude 9) (Re 12:7) If you begin speaking in terms of the messiah to practicers of Judaism, they will immediately begin thinking in terms of ones such as Moses, Joshua, the ancient judges, and even the righteous kings such as David. All of these were Messiahs or Christs (anointed ones) who at some point were actually appointed to positions of a Jesus or a means of Jehovah's salvation, even if largely in a figurative or illustrative sense.

If you were to take a closer examination of the entire 40 year sojourn of the Hebrews in the wilderness, you will actually find that there are a total of seven times that a rebellion or apostasy of the nation was symbolically represented before they finally made it into the Promised Land. Ultimately what this prophetic drama seems to be actually symbolically foreshadowing however is the seven times that Jehovah's shepherding class would be committing spiritual harlotry with seven foretold foreign world powers, beginning with Babylon and ending with the U.N. Each of these acts of spiritual adultery would in turn result in a "striking" or "chastising" of the shepherding class or authority figures of the nation, but would automatically extend to the other guilty parties as all of them are would now in some sense be "one flesh." (1 Cor 6:16) It is after all technically the authority of a nation that actually constitutes it as a nation. That is exactly why in ancient Egypt God's people were referred to simply as "Hebrews" as opposed to Israelites or even Jews. There is no such thing as a nation until ruling or shepherding authority is appointed to it. In turn when this shepherd or "woman" commits spiritual adultery, the marriage covenant is broken and correspondingly the authority and by extension the nation itself is technically lost and no longer in existence. (Zec 11:10) This loss of shepherding authority is the very reason that the sheep are "scattered" when the "shepherd is struck." This is also the very reason that these seven chastisings for this harlotry and spiritual death are not only identified also with terms like cleansings or baptisms, but also with "seven births" of the nation. (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) (Is 66:7, 8) A baptism after all is not simply a representation of a spiritual death or a going into the water, but also one of a Moses or a drawing out of the water. A spiritual revival or rebirth of the nation (a reassigning of shepherding authority) is also accomplished by these seven cleansings of the leprous Naaman entity or refinings in this "baptism of holy spirit and fire." It is not simply a spiritual planting, but also a spiritual "harvest." This is why you will consistently observe a re-appointing of shepherding authority over Jehovah's people after the chastisings of the shepherding class are completed.

You might recall for example how Daniel and his "three companions" were appointed to very high positions in ancient Babylon after this particular "striking of the shepherd," or the way in which Esther and Mordecai were appointed to high positions of authority in the Medo- Persian Empire. With continued Bible study, eventually we will observe a pattern of there always being a loss of shepherding authority and even a death (representing spiritual death primarily) that coincides with some form of spiritual rebellion or adultery of the nation, followed by a subsequent re-appointing of this authority. The deaths in turn actually appear to represent the priestly facet of the shepherding class in the sense of them always offering up their fleshly bodied as blood atonement for these apostasies. For example the appointing of Esther and Mordecai to positions of royalty in Persia was subsequent to the deletion of Vashti and the death of Haman. Another example would be the death of Moses and Aaron that preceded the appointment of Joshua and Caleb. This prophetic pattern of a striking and subsequent reappointing of the shepherd had been established long before the one that occurred in the first century. What is more, it also continued long after this particular baptism as the "Christ" continued to be "formed." (Ga 4:19) We can observe this very same pattern in accounts such as Revelation 11:7-12. Moreover, this particular account would clearly be fulfilled sometime after it was written by John (around 96CE evidently), or it would not even have qualified as a prophecy or "things that must shortly take place" to begin with. (Re 1:1)

What we need to understand is that as long as the earthly or "moon" portion of the "woman" would be comprised of sinful and imperfect humans, it would continue to be vulnerable to this "leaven of the Pharisees." (Re 12:1, 2) Interestingly enough, the name Jericho, where we just happen to find yet another symbolic representation of a kind of leavened woman ("Rahab the harlot"), literally means- moon city. Do we imagine that it is a mere coincidence that in prophecies that were clearly foretold for a post first century period, we find yet again this very same adulterous entity ("great harlot") identified also as a "great city"? (Re 17:18)

When we consider the rebirth of the nation or kingdom that is depicted in Revelation 12:1, 2, along with the fact that it is yet again found in a context of a spiritual "earthquake" as well as a "trumpet blast" and even a death (all of which the scriptures have already equated or associated with an apostasy of the nation), (Re 11:13-15) we might compare this to accounts such as Galatians 4:19. Here in the very context of yet another encroaching apostasy of the nation (this actually being the first of the foretold three of the spiritual manifestation of the nation as opposed to the fleshly one), we find some very interesting words of the Apostle Paul:

"my little children, with whom I am again in childbirth pains until Christ is formed in you."(Ga 4:19)

The "Christ" would ultimately prove to be comprised not simply of its head or Michael the archangel, but also of the entire "body" of his "brothers" or fellow "stones of the temple." (Ro 12:5) (Col 1:18 6:16, 19) We might bear in mind that these words of Paul came before the prophecies of John were written in Revelation. This would seem to make his words in verse 16 all the more interesting:

"What, do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body? For "the two" he says, "will be one flesh."

Once again, as we can determine from scriptural accounts such as I Corinthians 15:51-53, and Revelation 7:1-3, in at least some sense the "Christ" could not fully "come" until it would be fully "formed," just as also indicated in Galatians 4:19. Notice that Paul associates this completion of the forming of the Christ here in first Corinthians with the events foretold to accompany the "last" or final foretold "trumpet blast." In turn we now know this to be the "seventh trumpet" and therefore we can expect to witness this event before the "seventh bowl" of Jehovah's anger, which is basically the great tribulation and Armageddon. Since these very things are obviously already shaping up, we can of course expect to see this very soon. In the meantime, the mere fact that there still exists much confusion and disagreement on the meanings of various scriptures among these "scattered sheep" in the spiritual "wilderness," is proof enough that this "forming of the Christ" is still not complete. We might consider these words of Paul in Romans 11:25:

"For I do not want you brothers to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for you not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel, until the full number of people of the nations has come in."

Scriptures such as this should remind all of us not to be overly dogmatic (at least for now) in expressing our personal views of what the scriptures are trying to convey. It is likely that all of us (including myself) fail at times in connection with this at some point or other. Nevertheless I will state the following: The more time and effort that I expend in prayerful meditation and Bible reading, the more I am becoming convinced that this foretold "striking of the shepherd" would occur a total of "seven times," beginning with the spiritual harlotry of God's "woman" that occurred in connection with the Babylonian Empire, and ending with the one we can by this time even document with the U.N. Moreover, all of the things we are currently experiencing such as the "fleeing to the wilderness" due to the false teachings and harsh treatment of the modern day "chief priests, scribes and Pharisees," as well as the accompanying political, military, and econonomical climate that always seems to be scripturally associated with these events, would clearly indicate the following things: Not only are we currently in the prophetic time frame that was identified in scriptural accounts such as the "seventh seal" and "trumpet blast" of Revelation, but also very close to the events outlined under the final seventh "bowl" of Jehovah's anger. (Re 16:17- 22:21)

The continuity assigned in the scriptures to all these events is in fact perhaps the main reason that I have no problem seeing these "three large measures of flour" spoken of here in Matthew 13 as simultaneously "one mass" or as you say "one lump." In fact if this leavened entity was not being identified specifically in the prophetic time frame of the fourth baptism of the nation, as well as specifically being distinguished as the spiritual manifestation of the nation or kingdom as opposed to the fleshly one ("kindom of the heavens") (Mt 13:31), I strongly suspect it would have been identified as seven "large measures of flour as opposed to "three." As I am proposing that all of these "measures of flour" represent exactly the same thing in three separate time frames, it of course would make sense to me that they could also be recognized as "one lump." In fact once again we should take note of the fact that it was always in the context of the encroaching apostasy of the Christian congregation that the expression "a little leaven ferments the whole lump" is found. (1 Cor 5:6) (Ga 5:9)

With regard to your expressed concern that this "flour" may not necessarily be rightly associated or connected to the "leavened" or even "unleavened bread" that the scriptures appear to associate with the Christ or even "word of God," (Joh 1:1) (a term which is of course also assigned to the holy scriptures), I would submit the following: The adding of leaven to flour is of course exactly the way that bread is made. The fact that it is only when the "whole lump" is fermented that it is then "thrown into the oven," would only seem to help confirm this line of reasoning. Flour is of course ultimately "vegetation of the field." (Mt 6:30) We might also want to bear in mind that this particular parable in Matthew 13:33 was in the very same context of the one regarding the "wheat and the weeds." Correspondingly, the "conclusion of this harvest" also involved a "burning" or otherwise a "throwing into the oven." (Mt 13:24-30) The scriptures make it clear that even if the "head" of Christ's body would never be leavened, the "moon" or earthly portion of his "body" on he other hand would continue to experience spiritual corruption along with a subsequent "baptism of holy spirit and fire" or "oven" (if you will) "until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been." (Re 6:11) We can determine from the book of Revelation alone that there would yet be three more occasions that a spiritual leavening and subsequent fiery cleansing and rebirth of Jehovah's nation would occur between the time of Pentecost 33CE and Armageddon.

I hope that this was helpful in addressing your questions and concerns. Also I intend to continue addressing the remainder of them at a later time as time permits.

Regards:

Sol

[Get out of her]

Greetings Jo-el;

Jo-el wrote;

"such spiritual understanding of scriptures. So you will perhaps start to understand where I am coming from, when I question statements about the wealth of "Judaism"'s knowledge and also that Islam is also on the path even though BOTH deny almost every facet of his Sons person and ministry. Quite honestly, it seems to be always fashionable to be anything but a Christian. Yet as we can see and as Jesus Himself stated quite clearly - without Christ you can read all day and night every day and you will never understand those scriptures which are written of Him."

Happy to hear that you feel this way on the matter, and I agree wholeheartedly. What I am actually referring to in the case of these spiritual "Edomites" (if you will), assuming that i'm correct in suspecting they represent the remnants of Judaism, is actually the tools they have at their disposal, as opposed to their doctrines or dogma. For example as I have already mentioned, I personally have found their knowledge of the Hebrew language alone extremely helpful in better understanding the deeper scriptural meanings. The way their Hebrew language is structured, it appears to kinda define the words and names it renders automatically as you read or hear them. At the same time however, it communicates on several levels simultaneously. Not simply linguistically, but also numerically, mathematically, pictorially, and even musically at times in a simultaneous manner. The Hebrew characters do not simply represent letters, but also numbers (much like Greek), however in Hebrew, even the numbers themselves convey meanings over and above numerical values. Being handed tools such as this would be invaluable for example in helping a Christian unlock the deeper meanings of symbolic numbers like the 666 of Revelation. Another example that I have already touched on would be the way they they could potentially help us better understand things like the way the ancient Jews would have viewed or expected/anticipated the Messiah or even a coming of the Messiah somewhat differently than a perhaps a mainstream "Christian" would today. As I have verified this view as in fact quite scriptural, this could significantly impact the way that we understand what actually constitutes the Messiah (rendered as Christ in English of course) and by extension how it would affect ones understanding of what actually constitutes a "coming of the Christ" and what it is actually intended to accomplish.

Actually when you make reference (as you did in your last reply) to things like the literal meaning of the name Moses or the meanings conveyed by both the names as well as the sequence of the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, I personally see this as examples of taking much more of a Hebrew approach to Bible study. From what I can glean in my own personal research, much of this type of knowledge stems from "Christian" scholars and authors that were raised around the Hebrew language or otherwise have devoted a measure of time to studying it.

With regard to your statement:
"We are drifting off the Kingdom topic, but I hope I am right in thinking that your concern here is a "baby" -> "bathwater" scenario? I noticed a few of your typological fulfillments concern the modern day spiritual outlook and I'll try to answer some of those, but for now just to say something generally -
I can sympathize with a lot of what you say about drifting away from the organisation. Part of the reason for this is that JW's are and have been wrong about a great many things, probably just as many as Evangelicals, Baptists and Presbyterians. It just so happens that JW's were also right and implemented a great many things which I think probably do matter - a stance on war, pagan observances and so on. Unfortunately though, the JW organisation itself is built on a soapbox made out of deceptions, so where does that leave everyone who thought they were "better"? Would be interested in some thoughts on this as well."

Yes you are correct in your suspicion that I am implying a baby/bathwater scenario in this case. Also I happen to think you are now basically bringing up perhaps the most important question that any person from our religious background could be raising right now. Unfortunately I happen to think this is also one of the deepest questions or issues one could be considering at this time.

It so happens that I have already done much writing on this subject. I think the best way for me personally to do justice to this topic would be for me to dig up some of my writings on this and begin doing some copying and pasting. I would be more than happy to do so if you like. In the meantime I am hoping you can let me know if I can do any more to better address any of your previous concerns or questions.

Regards;

Sol

[coccus ilicis]

Hello jo_el

Thank you for considering all I have said, please excuse me if I pick and choose the things I want to talk about in your post, but as in a face to face conversation between two persons we home in on those points that need further clarification, the good thing about doing it online is that we can reconsider what we have written, so it has its advantages.

What happened in the early church is that some applied Jesus sacrifice in retrospect to Adam's sin and as that teaching took hold it had the effect of nullifying that which Jesus taught. James warned them about deceiving yourselves with false reasoning James 1:22,23. What was that false reasoning??? It doesn’t say, but whatever it was it took hold and caused them to ignore the things Jesus had taught. Similarly with universal atonement, those who believe in it generally react quite strongly when I say we need to listen and apply to ourselves what Jesus taught. Why is that, what nerve does this touch, what is it that makes them react with indignation and anger even?

I agree completely with the end goal of your belief, which is to actually listen to and apply to ourselves what Jesus taught. Many Christians actually do this, or try to do this, but partly because of the doctrines we are taught from childhood and in some cases partly because of ourselves and outside influence we may not fully apply ourselves and some who are nominally Christians even fail to realise they are doing anything wrong by co-habiting or getting divorced and remarried, etc. I think in short you basically object to the concept of once-saved-always-saved-so-I-can-do-whatever-I-want.

Like James I think people/we deceive ourselves and at the time of wrongdoing do not fully evaluate our action and its inevitable knock on effect, but see it purely from a personal viewpoint and then proceed to justify it. Consider the case of Eve who would not have been misled if she had not allowed the desire to be like gods cloud her reasoning ability with which her heavenly father had endowed them. How so? Well Satan asked her, with pretence of innocence and astonishment, if it was really true that God had told them not to eat of any tree in the garden. But his next statement shows he knew full well what God had told them with regard to the trees (Gen 3:4, 5). If she had had her wits about her she could have at least asked ‘if you knew about the trees then why did you ask me about them’. When questioned by her heavenly father she said she was deceived and indeed she was because she had allowed her desire to be like the gods cloud her power to reason. Adam who was with her at the time did not claim deceptions, but used the lame excuse saying the woman God had given him she gave him the fruit and so he ate.

What had occurred was that they both allowed themselves to be drawn out by a wrong desire, to run ahead and be something they were not yet ready for. … What is mortal man …the son of Adam that you take care of him…You make him rule over the works of your hand, everything you have put under his feet… (Ps 8:4-6). They had been created to rule the earth and God was teaching them how to think reason and behave like a god - a being in a position of authority. Once the wrong act was committed they attempted to justify it and the knock on effect was mankind’s descent into the long dark night. Satan has continued to use this same ploy of deception with great success. At 2Thess 2: 8 12, Paul says that Jesus would expose the lawlessness for what it is with the spirit of his mouth at the manifestation of his presence. So where does that leave truth seekers in the meantime, doing exactly what we are doing now – with the love of truth being the ox goad that drives us on.

The error/wrong doctrine/sin[missing] is to be expected considering the environment in which we are nurtured, but it is our reaction to it when it is exposed that matters, because this brings to the surface the innermost workings of our heart. We can see an example of this by comparing the sin of David and Bathsheba and that of King Saul in offering a sacrifice in Samuel’s stead. Both repented but Saul lost his kingship to posterity and David did not, why? Their reaction when their sin was exposed brought to the surface what was most important to them 2 Sam 12:1-7, 13 -23 & 1 Sam 15: 12, 20, 30 one was truly contrite accepting his error and its consequences; the other was more concerned with having Jehovah’s continued support and saving face in front of the people.

This same dilemma faces organized structures like religions. Like David and Saul they need God’s blessing but at the same time want to save face in front of their constituents when they err, and it is these two issues that govern the thinking of those who lead, whether religious political or secular organizational structures – the larger the constituency the greater the pressure. And therefore rather than admit the error openly they tend to gloss it over, minimizing and justifying their part and excuse themselves with the thought of needing to care for the flock/public/voters. The next step is to focus public attention on the error of others and tweak laws or scripture here and there to secure their position and attract more supporters. This pattern of behaviour like leaven replicates itself and grows and eventually corrupts the entire lump – this is how empires rise and fall and religious structures similarly. Does that summation sound harsh? Yes, it is, but stripped of sentimentality that is what happens and it is how it would be presented at a jurisdictional hearing where Satan is the adversary at court. Compare the case of Job 1:7-11. Humanity and their lack of insight and ability to do the job for which they were created are the central issue of a similar judicial hearing that has continued for millennia. At Dan 7: 10-14 the final stages are described and we see someone like the son of man (Jesus) standing before the court in defence of man. We are told the outcome but not what the evidence is that is presented in the opened books that ultimately convinces the court to hand down favourable judgement for the son of man and those called a people of who are the clean ones of supreme ones’.

Does he make his case simply because he died for mankind? In what way does that prove mankind’s worth and ability to rule this earth to the benefit of all life forms that inhabit it? Or is it that the holy ones/clean ones are ones who like Job have cleansed themselves Dan 12:10 and fully recognizing their error of judgement even as Job did. Job had misinterpreted what was happening to him and became defensive allowing a self-righteous spirit to rule (Job 42:1, 3, 6). Mankind is subject to a similar predicament as Job with one difference, Satan cannot accuse those who persevere with God and man (the true Israel that God is forming) of having been hedged in and protected and blessed by God.

Even though the lumps of dough are thoroughly fermented, individuals that endeavour to follow a path of high ideals very similar to those Jesus taught can be found within each of the three lumps Even as Paul wrote … for there is no partiality with God… whenever people of the nations that do not have the law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law unto themselves. They are the very ones who are denonstrating the matter of the law to be written in their hearts while their conscience is bearing witness, and between their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused… Ro 2:11,14,15. Ending his train of thought with … this is in the day when God through Jesus judges the secret things of mankind according to the good news I declare… Ro 2:16 Paul’s partial knowledge that served the purpose of the infant church would be replaced when the infant matured and the secret things of mankind became known. He didn’t know how or when this would come about, only that it would.

So what was the good news he spoke to the Romans and Greeks about in the above quoted discourse? Was it about Jesus’ death and resurrection that brought an end to Mosaic Law? That’s hardly likely since it would be of no value to persons of a non-Jewish background. Was it a retro-activated atonement teaching applicable to Adam’s sin? That was a later development extrapolated from his teaching. Or was the good news about the hour that is coming when people everywhere would worship the father with spirit and truth, John 4:21, 23? The Samaritan woman to whom Jesus said this answered … “I know the Messiah is coming who is called the Christ, when that one arrives he will declare all things to us openly”… John 4:25. Let the reader decide. The part the Samaritan woman played in this affair is often overlooked. But that hour for her was then and there because she is the only one to whom he openly said he was the Messiah (Gr. Christ). And she remembered what he had said word for word and made sure it was recorded.

You say

Correct, we are not ones judge and yes broadly speaking Jesus taught truth that can be applied by anyone, but he also said it was 100% necessary to believe in Him and who He is. He said that more than once and so did the apostles.

It might be an interesting exercise to locate the verses where Jesus himself says this and read them in context. You might find that there is no instance where he linked this with his death and resurrection but instead links it to the teaching of the commands his heavenly father had told him to broadcast (as in seed being sown). His discourse with his opponents at John 6:30-63 is sometimes used to support the doctrine, but a careful reading reveals he is talking about his teaching, ending the discourse with … It is the spirit that is life-giving, the flesh is of no use at all, the declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life …

Paul’s writing about being part of a new covenant also takes on different meaning if one takes note of where the aorist verb is translated as past tense English. If you have access to an interlinear with parsing, take note of where this occurs and how it has been rendered in English. Some interlinear versions no longer render the aorist in past tense and it alters the meaning considerably not only in the case of Paul’s writing but also with regard to the rest of the NT. Here is link to a free download of an Interlinear with parsing. It takes a little practice to learn how to use it but it is a useful tool http://www.scripture4all.org

The teaching on new covenants, chosen people, dispensations etc gained traction in the 1800s. In preceding century political movements with the aim of establishing a one world government and breaking the power of the Catholic church began to emerge and gain momentum. They in turn fostered religious research and doctrine that would further their cause. It is up to the reader to investigate this for themselves. Originally the teaching of being a chosen race and royal priesthood was foretold for Jews and later was extended to Christians under the new covenant and Jerusalem above. Scripture does indicate that there will be such a select group that will share in ruling mankind during the interim of a 1000 year period, during which mankind is brought up to speed with regard to their responsibilities. But it is still future and the selection is not finalized until after the son of man returns. Throughout the centuries it was/is the figurative carrot that imbued zealous individuals like those you mention with a sense of mission to preserver and carry on, making sure God’s word survived and would achieve that for which it was sent (Isa 45:23). If the Jews in the wilderness had known that these promises were still four millennia future, or Christians had known they were two millennia future, would short-lived humans have been spurred on to do what they did, or would they not have languished after a while and given up; and so God made allowance for the leaven – even purposed it.
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If this is roughly a fair idea of what you are speaking of when you object to atonement as a doctrine, then I must add that I do not agree with the connections that you seem to use in order to arrive at this belief, or probably in reverse that the scriptures are being filtered through this belief. Please allow me to explain in brief - the cup that Christ spoke of, the account of Cain and Abel, the purpose of sacrifices, the translation of various scriptures and the parallel beliefs concerning Islam and Judaism are all being filtered through this idea that Christianity itself is founded on a single false doctrine - that is not correct

The word Christian itself is a misnomer, it literally means anointed ones or possibly anointed fledglings (broodlings) G5546 Transliteration: Christianos Phonetic Spelling: (khris-tee-an-os') The name was first given to the worshippers of Jesus by the Gentiles, but from the second century (Justin Martyr (e. g. Apology 1, 4, p. 55 a.; dialog contra Trypho, § 35; cf. 'Teaching etc. 12, 4 [ET]) onward accepted by them as a title of honor http://biblehub.com/greek/5546.htm. Initially Christian was derogative nick name (Acts 26:28) and was not accepted as a term of honour until the second century. The literal meaning of Christians and its acceptance shows that their belief in Jesus had progressed beyond believing his teaching as coming from God and that he had died to end the Mosaic Law, to the point where they began to identify themselves as anointed ones. And like the Jews in Jesus day those calling themselves Christians often saw themselves as a cut above others – this goes against everything that Jesus taught and stood for - he taught that all mankind are on an equal footing in God’s eyes, which Paul also acknowledged, and the main thrust of Jesus' teaching were the commandments of his heavenly father.

Christians have cherished, worked to preserve and spread the scriptures - Old and New. Christians have preached in the streets, helped the needy, taught Gods standards, sought after truth, waited for the Lords return…

Correct, we are not ones judge and yes broadly speaking Jesus taught truth that can be applied by anyone, but he also said it was 100% necessary to believe in Him and who He is. He said that more than once and so did the apostles. So we can see that "not judging" or as you say "extracting straws" is not the same thing as a belief that Islam and Judaism form a kind of subset of believers - that Christians, Jews and Islam are all one lump of flour, one melting pot. That simply cannot be the case - take Romans 10:…

I appreciate what you are saying and the sincerity of Paul and those early Christians is not in question their sense of mission and zeal produced a phenomenal growth and sustained Christianity through the centuries and served to preserve the teaching of Jesus (the commandments of his father) even as God purposed. Paul understood this aspect; he knew what he was teaching with regard having righteousness attributed being predestined came from his own storehouse of knowledge which reflected Jewish beliefs at that time. He knew full well that his teaching on the matter would be replaced when the secret things of mankind rose to the surface and were visible to those who cared to look. In his day the secret things of mankind were still hidden and people were not ready to understand this lesson. But we are now in that day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he appointed, and he furnished a guarantee to all men in that he was resurrected from the dead….Acts 17:13

Jesus gave us the very essence of the of the criteria for the judgment of mankind at Matt 7:1-14 and there will initially be only a few who cleanse themselves and are whitened (Dan 12:9, 10) and it appears that some of those appointed to rule with him in the interim period of a 1000 years will be chosen from amongst those ones mentioned at Dan 12 – these ones I believe are pictured as the trees of life, the leaves of which are for the curing of the nations (Rev 22:2; Dan 7:12). Interestingly these trees produce fruit but it is the leaves which are for the curing of the nations – compare Matt 21:19, the olive tree that had leaves but no fruit. How this will be done s is yet to be seen but what is certain is that partiality for one religion above another will not be a deciding factor – nurture and accident of time and place of birth will not prejudice their case, Jesus looks deeper.

Again I repeat Paul did an admirable job in promoting Jesus and making sure his sayings survived, but we are now at the other end of time and the measure or flour has fully risen and growth has ceased. The seventh trumpet is about to sound with an angel flying in mid-heaven with everlasting good news to declare and glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people, saying in a loud voice: FEAR GOD and give him glory, because the hour of judgement by him has arrived, and so worship the ONE who made the heaven and the sea and the fountains of water (Rev 14: 6,7) This, in essence is the same good news that Jesus foretold when he said … believe me woman, the hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will people worship the Father... true worshippers will worship the father with spirit and truth for indeed the father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him … (John 4: 20-24).

As you can see I am deliberately steering clear of all the usual scriptures that support the Christian doctrine. I see the Bible as containing a record of God’s dealings with mankind. Jews, Christendom, Islam and all their offshoots individually focus on those verses that support their form of worship; I focus on those verses that highlight God’s purpose and sanctify his name. Like Paul, my knowledge is also partial; all I see is what is needed at this time - the time when the old is coming to an end and the new is beginning. Living organisms in all their forms are in dire peril and in danger of being destroyed by mankind’s juvenile wilful plundering. People within nations tribes and of every tongue are beginning to wake and understand, and some will stop blaming others and realize that changing the way things are starts with themselves. These ones will then look to their creator for instruction. How this comes about it yet to be seen – but at that time God’s will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven and God’s kingdom or rule over mankind will have begun.

[coccus ilicis]

Hello again Jo-el and everyone:

I will admit that I see this idea as a stronger candidate here for these "three large measures of flour." There are however at least two things that might be problematic for this line of reasoning. First of all the descriptive word used here with respect to all three of these "measures of flour" was "large." When we factor in things like the fact that the setting here was after all the very founding of the Christian congregation or even "Kingdom of the heavens," and that the "Jews" specifically (as opposed to the Samaritans and Gentiles) were shortly thereafter identified in accounts such as Luke 18:24, 25 as simply representing or foreshadowing the shepherding or spirit anointed class of Jehovah's sheep,

This leaven that was used in this parable was identified once again as something that was "hid" or hidden. In absolutely no way whatsoever could the Christian ministry be identified as something "hidden." Quite to the contrary, the light of scriptural truth was something that was clearly identified in the scriptures as the very antithesis of hidden. (Mr 4:21) And this would be all the more so the case in the context of the ministry to the "Samaritans and Gentiles."

So what about some other possible explanations here for these "three large measures of flour" in Matthew 13?

One of the ideas that came to my mind on this was the possibility of these "three measures of flour" representing the three groups of people that over the millenniums fell under the Abrahamic, Mosaic, and "New Covenant" respectively.

We of course recognize that by the time that Jesus uttered these words in Matthew 13, Jehovah's "woman" had already prostituted herself with the Roman world power

You might find it was Greece; Jews had become Hellenized even as Rome had at that time. .

While the spiritual harlotry of Jehovah's "woman" of course began with the Babylonian world power, the prophet Daniel had already identified this Roman Empire as the "fourth beast." (Da 7:7)

See my post beloww

Regards:

Sol

Hello ‘get out of her’

I have not replied to your posts before, not because they were not directed to me but I was not ready until now to read your posts in depth, thank you for joining in the discussion.

I find it interesting how paths coming from widely different directions are converging. Persons from different backgrounds are arriving at similar conclusions for different reasons,

You say in your post #33

I would be quite happy to accept questions and even challenges on this nevertheless. Getting answers to questions always seems to lead to more good questions

.
I would add to that also finding more good answers.

There are just a couple of things you might like to consider in your ruminations, God made more promises to Abraham and his offspring than the one or two generally emphasized by Christians.

• 1. Abram would become a great nation (a single great nation) Gen 12:1-3
  2. Then, with reference to Sarai giving birth, he told him that his seed would become in number as the stars of heaven Gen 15:5
  3. His name was changed to Abraham because he would become father to a crowd of nations Gen 17:5
  4. He told him his seed would serve a nation whom God is judging, and that he would return to the land of promise after the error of the Amorites has come to a completion and would give his seed the land from the River of Egypt to the Great river Euphrates Gen 15:13-18
  5. In the meantime pregnant Hagar runs away and Jehovah’s angel tells her return to her mistress and the son she would bear would become a zebra of a man and he would multiply her seed greatly. Gen 14:7 -16. He also qualifies as Abraham’s seed to whom God promised the land (see 4 above)
  6. When Sarah is about to conceive and the angelic messengers look toward Sodom saying that Jehovah is keeping covered from Abraham what he is doing and added that he would become a great nation and all the nations of the earth are blessed in him Gen 18:18
  7. Then after he attempting to offer up Isaac God re-iterates that promise (6b) adding that his seed would take possession of the gate of your enemies and by his seed all the nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves Gen 22:17,18
  8. After the death of Sarah Abraham remarries and he gave his offspring by the concubine gifts and sent them away from Isaac. These also qualify as Abrahams seed to whom he promised the land (see 4 above) Gen 25:5,6
  9. When Rebecca is pregnant and the two sons struggle within her she is told two nations are in your belly and the stronger would serve the lesser. Esau is also the seed of Abraham and would be included in promise of the land that would be given to Abraham’s see (see 4 above)
  10. Jehovah appeared to Isaac and repeats the earlier prophecy made to Abraham (see 4 above) concerning residing as an alien in Egypt and that he would give the lands to him and his seed, and re-iterates the promise he made Abraham (see 2 above) adding I will give your seed all these lands and again confirming the promise by his seed all the nations of the Earth would bless themselves (see 6b above)
  11. Jacob receives his father’s blessing by means of the subterfuge and Esau cries out in protest to his father and Isaac who blesses him saying ... by your sword you will live and your brother you will serve. But it will certainly occur that when you grow restless, you will indeed break his yoke off your neck Gen 27:40. He also is Abrahams seed (see 4 above)
  12. God confirms the promise he had made to Abraham to Jacob Gen 28:13,14 (see 4 & 6b above),

So we can see why the current dispute about land rights in the Middle East and Palestine and why some Zionists aspire to possess land from the Nile to the Euphrates. But we see that in the first instance it was promised to all of Abraham’s seed plural which would include all those who trace their ethnicity to him. That, and the fact that the 12 tribes springing from Jacob were dispossessed for failing to keep their part in the covenant Le 18:26-28 and the land vomited them out.

Also we see that Abraham would become father to a crowd of nations, not just the Jews. And that through Isaac’s seed, with the line of descent going through Jacob and leading to Jesus, all the nations of the earth would bless themselves.

The other thing I would like to bring to reader's attention is that the 4th beast of Dan 7:7 could not be Rome as it is commonly thought. The reason being that Daniel is given this vision in the time Belshazzar (Dan 7:1) the last king of the Babylonian empire, and in requesting an explanation he is told … as for these beasts, because they are four, there are four kings that will stand up Dan 7:17. So the first beast would picture the next empire which is Medo-Persia, then Greece, then Rome and then the 4th beast the British empire which morphed into the Anglo-American juggernaut.

As I said paths seem to be converging as the secret of mankind is revealed and I believe that many more paths even those from outside the religious sphere are converging on the same destination.

[Get out of her]

Greetings Coccus Illicis:

I like that name. Sounds like an expensive shampoo that everyone should be lining up to buy.

Thank you for taking the time to consider my posts and comment on them. In view of some of your statements such as your reference to "people from different backgrounds and widely different directions," I am curious about your own specific background if you don't mind me inquiring. Personally I am coming from a rather strongly indoctrinated JW background. I'm in my 50s now and I was raised around the religion and baptized at 17. I began to finally sense that something was very wrong around 2008 or so but did not really begin to wake up to the harsh reality of what I now see as the final foretold apostasy of God's nation until around 2013-14. I am naturally assuming that at least most of the people on this site come from the same JW background as myself which is partly why I am curious about your background.

Perhaps I can give you a brief overview of why I am approaching this subject matter from a rather different perspective altogether than yourself. Please bear in mind however that in so doing I do not mean to come across as overly authoritative or dogmatic. As I've already mentioned in my comments to Jo-el, I suspect that all of us are at times guilty of this to at least some extent. I often try to remind myself of Paul's counsel at Romans 11:25 which seems to strongly suggest that all of us would be suffering from a "dullness of sensibilities" until the foretold completion of the "forming" or gathering together of "Christ's body." (Ga 4:19) (Re 7:1-3) (1 Cor 15:53) (Ro 12:5)

Due to the fact that I continue to stumble upon a seemingly endless stream of scriptures that point me in this direction, for quite some time now I approach the entire subject of Bible reading and study on the following premise:

I personally see basically all scripture as both a symbolic as well as a prophetic drama of essentially three main events.

1. The establishing of a foundation for a restoration of family relations or ties between fallen mankind and what of course should have always remained their true father, Jehovah God. I see this foundation as at least primarily being laid with the creation and adoption of the Mosaic Law Covenant at Mt Sinai. It was this event I believe that initially separated out and isolated a group of people in an official manner from a world that had been temporarily turned over to satan to resolve the issues that had been raised at the Garden of Eden. There was finally now officially a nation and people that were actually theocratic and one whom God could claim as his own.

2. With what I personally recognize as the fulfillment of the foretold fourth "coming of the Messiah" in the 1st century, this natural or fleshly nation of Israel was transformed into not only exactly what it was promised and foretold to eventually be, but even what it itself was used to symbolically and prophetically foreshadow or represent in the first place, namely; a spiritual and ultimately a heavenly nation that would exist in "two camps." (Ca 6:13) (Song of Solomon) (He 10:22) Jerusalem in fact literally means- foundation of two-fold peace. I am certain that this is with reference to the peace that would eventually be attained between both heaven and earth. I personally see these "two camps" as primarily being represented or prophetically pictured with the two and ten tribe kingdoms of Judea and Samaria respectively. Moreover I am seeing the Judean tribes as exclusively a shepherding representation and the northern ten tribes as simultaneously a shepherding but primarily a flock representation or prophetic symbolism.

3. While I would concede that the unfolding of God's promises concerning his people up until this point consists of a combination of both prophetic dramas as well as much fulfillment of scriptural prophecy, the third and final main event that essentially all of these things appear to have been used to point to as well as set the stage for is I believe exactly what we are already beginning to witness today. As I've already touched on I personally see us all as on the verge of experiencing and witnessing the final foretold "harvest of the firstfruits" or the completion of the formation of "Christs body." Assuming I am correct this would place us in the prophetic time frame that was symbolically pictured with prophetic dramas such as when the Hebrews (basically a shepherding representation) along with a "vast mixed company" (basically a flock or symbolic representation of the new world that so many are currently anticipating) witnessing the death of Moses and Aaron (a representation perhaps of the spiritual death of the governing body that has obviously now occurred) and waiting for the final appointing of what is currently only an anointed entity, represented in this case by Joshua and Caleb.

The word Christ literally means- anointed one. The name Joshua is simply a Hebrew rendering of Jesus. The name Jesus literally means-Jehovah's salvation. To say the words anointed Joshua, is to say Christ Jesus. The name Caleb literally means-dog. What we are talking about here appears to be the final foretold rebirth of Jehovah's nation or the final appointing of shepherding authority to the great shepherd and his loyal sheep dog.

It appears to me that the moment we witness what Paul foretold and associated with the "last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15, namely the instantaneous transformation of the remainder of the anointed ones into "incorruptible and immortal" spirit persons, we will subsequently experience exactly what was now prophetically pictured immediately after the appointing of ancient Joshua and Caleb. This was of course basically the destruction of a "great city" that is associated with a "harlot" (represented by ancient Jericho in this case) followed by an unimaginably tremendous military victory over an entity with armies that were described as "numerous as grains of sand that were on the seashore for multitude." (Jos 11:4) Compare (Ez 38) (Re 17:1, 18 20:8) Sure sounds a lot like the events described for the great tribulation and Armageddon and even beyond.

When people begin referring to the literal or fleshly things that took place with people and nations in ancient times, I immediately begin thinking in terms of the spiritual things that they were used to prophetically and symbolically foreshadow. For example if someone begins talking about the Israelites or the Jews, I only think in terms of spiritual Israel and spiritual Jews. Just as the nation of the U.S.A. did not exist until the Declaration of Independence and the adoption of the American Constitution, and American citizens did not exist until they agreed to come under the umbrella of its legal authority, so it goes with Jews and Israelites. This ancient fleshly nation did not even exist until the adoption of the Mosaic Law Covenant at Mt Sinai after the exodus of Egypt. This is exactly why up until this time they were never referred to as Jews or Israelites, but only with terms such as the "Hebrews."

The ancient Jews appear to have represented the shepherding or national authority of the ancient kingdom while the Israelites in turn appear to have basically represented the citizenship. Correspondingly, when this same Law Covenant was later "nailed to the torture stake" along with the Christ, these literal or fleshly Jews and Israelites became as nonexistent and "obsolete" as their literal and fleshly nation. (Co 2:14) (He 8:13) At this point from the standpoint of the Christian congregation there was "neither Jew nor Greek." (Ga 3:28) In other words, from a scriptural standpoint there no longer exists Jews, Gentiles, or even Samaritans, but rather only what they were used to prophetically picture or symbolically represent and foreshadow in the first place. This appears to be essentially the following:

Either you are now part of God's family/nation/kingdom, or you are not. If you are not, you are a spiritual "gentile." If you are, you fall into one of two categories. Either you are spirit anointed or you are not. If you are, you would be counted among the spiritual Jews or "little flock" that "the father has approved of giving the kingdom." (Lu 12:32) If you are not spirit anointed you would simply be a spiritual Israelite or Samaritan, which is also identified in the scriptures with terms such as the "great crowd" of "other sheep," "out of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues."(Re 7:9) (Joh 10:16) Bear in mind that even the tribe of Ephraim (a name which was sometimes used in the scriptures to identify the entire ten tribe northern kingdom) was assigned the symbolic representation of "the full equivalent of nations." (Ge 38:19)

One of the scriptures that I find very interesting on this subject is Acts 18:24, 25. Here in just this one account we find several verifications of the points I am trying to make here regarding spiritual verses natural Jews. Here in the very same time frame in which Paul is trying to help us understand that from Christian perspective "there is neither Jew nor Greek," we find Luke making the following statements:
24 "Now a certain Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, an eloquent man, arrived in Ephesus; and he was well versed in the scriptures. 25 This man had been orally instructed in the way of Jehovah, and as he was aglow with the spirit, he went speaking and teaching with correctness the things about Jesus…"

First of all Luke here has obviously just identified this man as a "Jew." The question would be why? Because immediately after doing so he provides several compelling reasons for everyone to not understand this term in a literal or natural sense. So what reasons are they?

1. First of all he obviously has a name that strongly suggests a national background as a Greek. Moreover the fact that he had just "arrived in Ephesus" and immediately began speaking "eloquently" in a Greek city would be even further indication of this. But so what? After all you could be of a Grecian nationality or fleshly lineage and still be born in Judea right?

2. Apollos is next identified as a "native of Alexandria." Clearly Apollos would have been an Egyptian by birth. But who cares? Obviously he was a Jew in the sense that he was a believer and practicer of Judaism, right?

3. "he went speaking and teaching with correctness the things about Jesus…" Obviously Apollos was a Christian. So the question remains, why is Luke referring to Apollos as a Jew?

4. "he was aglow with the spirit,…" Once again the Judean tribes were used as a prophetic and symbolic picture of the shepherding authority of God's people. In turn, what was the one thing that Jehovah always did to both identify as well as empower and equip his appointed shepherds? Well just as illustrated with the prophets or even the "shepherd boy David," he would pour out his holy spirit upon them. (1 Sa 16:13) The word Christian literally means-anointed ones. This is an extremely broad brushed term that technically applies only to the spirit anointed followers of Jesus, or the spiritual Jews. This in turn is exactly what Apollos was, a spiritual Jew, and this is the reason that he was here identified as one.

Once again, I do not mean to suggest that my personal perspective is the only one that matters, but in my case, when I consider previous prophetic dramas such as with Sarah and Hagar or Ishmael and Isaac, I am simply seeing previous prophetic dramas of essentially the very same things in symbolic miniature. (Ga 4:21-26) Just as the twelve tribes of Israel were divided in half facing two different mountains (one representing cursings and one blessings) (De 27) basically half of this "seed of Abraham" represented fleshly and cursed things, while the other half represented spiritual and blessed things.

The fact that these very same representations made it as far as to the twins of Rebecca (Jacob and Esau) seems to point to the fact that this very same phenomenon of cursings and blessings among Jehovah's people would extend even to the spiritual nation or "seed of the promise" as opposed to "Law." (Ga 3:18) Jacob and Esau appear to ultimately represent both the fleshly and spiritual nation of Israel simultaneously, while also simultaneously representing both the blessings as well as the cursings that would be attributed to it. In other words, Jacob appears to me to represent God's nation and people while in a clean and approved standing with him, while Esau appears to represent the very same thing during the time periods in which it was foretold that the nation would be in a cursed and disapproved standing with Jehovah due to spiritual adultery or "harlotry." In fact it appears to me that basically this very same thing was symbolically represented with the twin sons of Judah through Tamar in Genesis 38. Bear in mind I am only touching on basics here and deliberately trying to avoid the details for now.
With regard to your statement:

"The other thing I would like to bring to reader's attention is that the 4th beast of Dan 7:7 could not be Rome as it is commonly thought. The reason being that Daniel is given this vision in the time Belshazzar (Dan 7:1) the last king of the Babylonian empire, and in requesting an explanation he is told … as for these beasts, because they are four, there are four kings that will stand up Dan 7:17. So the first beast would picture the next empire which is Medo-Persia, then Greece, then Rome and then the 4th beast the British Empire which morphed into the Anglo-American juggernaut."

I understand how you came to this conclusion, but I hope you will allow me to explain just a bit on why I think you have jumped the gun here.

First of all there are a number of scriptural accounts which make it quite clear that Jehovah's prophecies are not always presented entirely in concert with the specific time frame that they were introduced into. For example: There are of course additional ways and even additional visions of "wild beasts" that were implemented in prophetic visions to serve in a supplementary way in helping us to better understand this very same subject matter, such as the "seven headed wild beasts" of Revelation.
In Chapter 17 of Revelation, when Jehovah introduces the Apostle John to the vision of the "scarlet colored wild beast" he proceeds to make it known to John that this prophetic vision covered a time frame that would extend not only into the future, but even the past. In verse 10 we find the words:

"And there are seven kings, five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived..."(Re 17:10)

This vision is of course in the context of the seven world powers that Jehovah's "woman" would ultimately become guilty of committing spiritual harlotry with before the "Christ" would be "fully formed." You and I evidently both agree that the ancient kingdom of Greece was among the seven empires that would not only be included among these foretold "seven," but would also be the one that followed the Medo-Persian Empire. Based on this one scripture alone, if at the time of this prophetic vision the "sixth king" was already ruling, and we start counting backwards to the first, I would propose that we quickly run into trouble if we choose to begin counting with the Medo-Persian Empire. As I've already mentioned however, there are also other ways or visions that help us to get a firm grasp of the symbolic meanings involved here.

One of these would be found with the immense image that terrified King Nebuchadnezzar in his dream. In this particular vision we are of course presented with a sequence of different metals on the immense image to represent this same sequence of kingdoms that would be involved in spiritual adultery with God's people before Armageddon. In this case the initial metal or "head of gold" is directly identified as the Babylonian Empire, and we of course know from the scriptural accounts of Jewish history that Babylon was the first foreign empire that the Jews or Judean Kingdom entered into a covenant relationship with. (Da 2:38) This is no doubt the reason that this entire "seven headed" entity is referred to also as "Babylon the Great" in Revelation. You might notice however that this fourth "kingdom" in line or sequence with Babylon in chapter two is described in exactly the same way as the fourth wild beast of chapter seven. (Da 2:40) Compare (Da 7:7) Moreover, if you were to compare the descriptive and symbolic language used to identify the "head of gold" in chapter two which we already know to be Babylon, you will find it once seems to match rather well with the description of the first "wild beast" of Chapter seven. (Da 2:37, 38) Compare (Da 7:4)

As I've already mentioned this is only a portion of the reasons that I have come to a different conclusion on these particular issues than you. Nevertheless these things in my opinion touch on scriptural topics that I happen to think might be much more important to discuss at length during the prophetic time frame that I believe we are now in. As the old saying goes, "if two people always agree on everything, only one is doing the thinking." I would add that the only other possible scenario for this would be if and when we were all perfect and "immortal, incorruptible" spirit persons. In the meantime I hope you would agree that particularly in view of the prophetic time frame I believe we are now in, the important thing is that we are simply having these discussions in the first placediscussthe. (Mal 3:16) Personally I choose to focus on all the things we have in common, and my aim is to always extend the same reasonableness, graciousness and patience with my comments as I would like to expect in return. I am brand new here on this website and it was actually your comments specifically on this topic that caught my eye and moved me to make this blogg line the very first one that I chose to begin commenting on. Your idea of Judaism, Christianity and Islam potentially comprising what was being represented by the "three large measures of flour" in Matthew 33 was one of the first ideas that I had when I initially began meditating on that scripture years ago. I am simply very excited to find people that are beginning to experience the very same spiritual awakening that I believe I am now experiencing, and I look forward to many interesting and deep Bible discussions even if they were to basically amount to only healthy debates. As I've basically said before, even if it requires being proved incorrect and unscriptural on a regular basis to bring us all closer to an "accurate knowledge" of God's word, I'd like to be the first to volunteer. (Ro 10:2) I hope you feel the same way.

BTW, I was blindsided just a bit by your quotation of Genesis 25:23. I am wondering if it was simply a typo on your part or if you are quoting from a translation I am unfamiliar with. In all the translations I personally checked the wording would be something like: "and the older will serve the younger." Particularly in view of the symbolic meanings I see as being involved here, I think it would be rather important to make sure we have the wording correct.

Jo-el has brought up an issue in his last comments to me that I think might be just as important as any that we could be discussing at this time. I am wondering if you might have any thoughts on it that you would like to share. I am planning at this point to open up a new discussion on it under a new heading as soon as I get a chance.

Regards;

Sol

[coccus ilicis]

Greetings Coccus Illicis:


Sol

Hello ‘get out of her’

Thank you for your prompt reply.

I like that name. Sounds like an expensive shampoo that everyone should be lining up to buy

…
The coccus ilicis comes from Hebrew towla [lwt] a female insect that attaches itself to a tree and lays her eggs and then dies and the little red hatchling larvae - worms/maggots/grubs - burrow into the tree and if there are enough of them they will kill the tree.

God appointed a bottle gourd tree to shade Jonah and then at the ascent of the morning he appointed the towla to destroy the bottle gourd. Jonah protested and God said …you for your part felt sorry for the bottle gourd plant/tree, which you did not toil upon or make get big, which proved to be a mere growth of the night and perished as a growth of the night… (Jonah 4:4 -6, 8,10)
And that is why I sign off as a LRW ~ Little Red Worm

I was blindsided just a bit by your quotation of Genesis 25:23. I am wondering if it was simply a typo on your part or if you are quoting from a translation I am unfamiliar with. In all the translations I personally checked the wording would be something like: "and the older will serve the younger

.

Gen 25:23 the older
H7227 rab rab by contracted from H7231 abundant (in quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality)
from
H7231 rabab raw-bab' a primitive root; properly, to cast together (compare H7241), i.e. increase, especially in number; also (as denominative from H7233) to multiply by the myriad

Gen 25:23 the younger
H6810 tsa`iyr tsaw-eer' or tsanowr {tsaw-ore'}; from H6819 little; (in number) few; (in age) young, (in value) ignoble
from
H6819 tsa`ar tsaw-ar' a primitive root; to be small, i.e. (figuratively) ignoble

I am simply very excited to find people that are beginning to experience the very same spiritual awakening that I believe I am now experiencing, and I look forward to many interesting and deep Bible discussions even if they were to basically amount to only healthy debates. As I've basically said before, even if it requires being proved incorrect and unscriptural on a regular basis to bring us all closer to an "accurate knowledge" of God's word, I'd like to be the first to volunteer. (Ro 10:2) I hope you feel the same way

I am not sure of what you mean by citing Rom 10:2 in connectiong with healthy debates. Rom 10:2 has often been used by JWs to support their version of 'truth'. I believe Paul said this with regard to Jews of his day, did he not? Paul was speaking of a people whose teaching he knew inside out and therefore could make such a statement with confidence, but application beyond that means we assume that others … a have zeal for God but not according to accurate knowledge according to our version of what we believe to be true, which we support by cherry picked scriptures. We all do this to some degree on this forum, but doing so does not make it true or more accurate it simply reveals where we are in our understanding and how we personally read and process scripture. I am also new here but many here, old and new alike, have been looking more deeply into scripture for many years now and are bit by bit discarding old ways of thinking and indoctrination. We learn from each other only in so far as we might pick up a scriptural thought from someone's post that we had not considered before.

With regard to Dan 7:17 you say:

First of all there are a number of scriptural accounts which make it quite clear that Jehovah's prophecies are not always presented entirely in concert with the specific time frame that they were introduced into. For example: There are of course additional ways and even additional visions of "wild beasts" that were implemented in prophetic visions to serve in a supplementary way in helping us to better understand this very same subject matter, such as the "seven headed wild beasts" of Revelation.
In Chapter 17 of Revelation, when Jehovah introduces the Apostle John to the vision of the "scarlet colored wild beast" he proceeds to make it known to John that this prophetic vision covered a time frame that would extend not only into the future, but even the past. In verse 10 we find the words:
"And there are seven kings, five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived..."(Re 17:10)

If we apply such a ruling

are not always presented entirely in concert with the specific time frame that they were introduced into

wherever it doesn’t fit into our scenario, we might be falling into the trap of trying to make it fit into a preconceived concept of what it means.

Rev 17:10 is a good example. I won’t cover it comprehensively here because it needs to have a thread on its own. But briefly - The beast the harlot rides is the same beast as that of Rev13 which includes the slaughtered healed head - with each head being representative of a nation beast. At Rev 17:10, 11 John sees it as it appeared late in the first century. Homing in on one of the heads he says … and the wild beast head that you saw in the earlier vision that was but is not it is also itself and eighth king but springs from the seven… Ask yourself which of the heads/beasts was had been, but was not, no longer existed at the time John received this vision. It is the same head/beast whose ascent out of the abyss - death like state - was still future (Rev 17:8) late in the first century.

And it springs from the seven in the sense that it is a man-made reconstituted Frankenstein that had life breathed into it 1948 by mandate of the U.N. And it becomes an eighth king over and above the 7 headed beast because it is a power to reckoned with in its own right, even as it is now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... _Palestine
But this is not the place for such a discussion.

As I said we process information differently but we can never arrive at truth on our own, and at Dan 12:9, 10 it says a cleansing is necessary which I believe is not so much cleansing of doctrinal believes but a changing of ourselves by the application of Matt 7:1-14 if we do this Jesus will in turn refine us and wrong doctrinal beliefs will be discarded one after the other as the picture comes into focus … in that day you will ask me no questions at all… I have spoken these things in comparisons. The hour is coming when I will speak to you no more in comparisons, but I will report with plainness concerning the father (John 16:23, 25)

Many of mankind have embarked on paths to understand the ‘secret things of mankind’ (Rom 2:16) and paths are converging but not all will end up at the same destination.

[Get out of her]

Greetings LRW:

It was nice to hear from you again.

Speaking of blindsiding, I think I am guilty of doing exactly that to myself at the moment. I just happened to glance over my last message to you and it looks like a portion of it got zapped into cyberspace when I uploaded it. I realize a more likely scenario is that I simply did not write exactly what I meant to. I attempted to edit it but it appears that there is no editing feature on this site. (Bummer) Anyway, in connection with what I referred to as the "three main events" that I personally see the scriptures endeavoring to direct our attention to, the latter portion of point number three should have read a bit differently. I will go ahead and rewrite the entire third point in an effort to keep it comprehensive and in the intended context. What I actually intended to write is the following:

3. While I would concede that the unfolding of God's promises concerning his people up until this point consists of a combination of both prophetic dramas as well as much fulfillment of scriptural prophecy, the third and final main event that essentially all these things appear to have been used to point to as well as set the stage for is I believe exactly what we are already beginning to witness today. As I've already touched on I personally see us all as on the verge of experiencing and witnessing the final foretold "harvest of the firstfruits" or the completion of the "formation of Christ's body." (Ga 4:19) (1 Cor 6:15) (Re 6:11 7:3) Assuming I am correct this would place us in the prophetic time frame that was symbolically pictured with prophetic dramas such as when the Hebrews, (basically a shepherding representation) along with a "vast mixed company," (basically a flock representation), stood at the border of the "Promised Land," (a representation of the new world that many are currently anticipating), witnessing the death of Moses and Aaron, (most definitely a prophetic picture of the spiritual death of Jehovah's shepherding class and perhaps specifically that of the governing body of JWs that has unquestionably occurred by this time), and waiting for the final appointing (as opposed to simply anointing) of what is currently merely an anointed entity (the "discreet virgins") represented in this case by Joshua and Caleb.

The above is much more in line with what I actually intended to say, but since I have once again brought it up, I figure I might as well take the opportunity to elaborate more on this to better explain not only what I am trying to say, but also exactly how I see it all tying in to prophetic parables such as Matthew 13:33. So I will add the following:


Keep in mind that essentially the very last "sign of the times" as brought out in accounts such as the end of Matthew 24 and the beginning of 25 is in fact a final spiritual "sleep" of the entire slave class, both "foolish" and "discreet." (Mt 25:5) In other words, if we are actually paying attention to Jehovah's word, we should not at all be surprised by the rather shocking things we have been witnessing among the JW organization for some time now, assuming that they ever were a manifestation of the true nation to begin with. (I'll get into that topic later) A "harvest" is of course always preceded by a planting. In turn a spiritual awakening/revival/re-birth is always preceded by a spiritual "sleep" or death. Obviously when this moment arrives the "foolish virgins" are not going to do what was pictured by the Apostle Paul who boldly announced to the Christian congregation that the first foretold apostasy of the new spiritual nation had officially arrived (in or near 65CE), (2 Cor 6:17) compare (Re 18:4) and to now conduct themselves accordingly. Or for that matter exactly what the Apostle John did roughly thirty years later when the completion of the initial "leavening" of the new nation occurred. (1 Joh 2:18) Take note that in contrast with Paul in Second Corinthians 6:17, John does not address his fellow brothers in 2 John 2:18, but rather an entity referred to with the symbolic language-"little children." I realize that this will likely open up an entirely new discussion but bear with me on this for just a moment.

For several reasons, including the fact that the scriptures appear to often refer symbolically to not simply "widows," (spiritual widows) in the context of these spiritual adulteries of the nation, (much like "virgins") but also "orphans," the cleansings/refinings or baptisms (deaths and re-births) of God's nation appear to always occur in two stages. This is apparently one of the reasons that Jesus often spoke in terms of "harvests" in connection with these baptisms or spiritual cleansings of the nation. A harvest always of course came in two phases, namely; the "harvest of the first fruits" followed by a general harvest. As illustrated or even demonstrated several times with the ancient nation of fleshly Israel, there are actually "two camps" of his nation or people. (Ca 6:13) (Song of Solomon) These "two camps" appear to represent the fact that the new nation of spiritual Israel would ultimately be both a heavenly as well as an earthly entity simultaneously. The division that was made at some point between Judea and Samaria appears to be one of the ways that this "two camp" phenomenon was illustrated or prophetically symbolized. Bear in mind that when one of these kingdoms would rebel against Jehovah, he did not unjustly attribute their sin of apostasy to the other nation. Rather, it was only when the remaining nation also rebelled that they were in turn also held accountable.

This very thing appears (to me at least) to be exactly what was symbolically pictured with prophetic dramas such as the way in which the ancient kingdoms of Judea and Samaria experience Jehovah's adverse judgments at two different time periods, corresponding to their own distinct apostasies. Once again, I am proposing that the ten tribe northern kingdom was basically used as representation of the earthly "camp" of the "Shulammite," which in turn would consist primarily of the "sheep" as opposed to the "shepherd," or "little children" (now spiritual "orphans") in a spiritual sense as opposed to "Christ's brothers." (Who would qualify more as spiritual "widows" or spiritual "virgins" in the context of an adulterous apostasy) With this in mind we might take a closer look at a scripture found at Zechariah 11:4-7. Take note here of some very interesting words of Jehovah that occurred in the very context of a rebellion of his appointed shepherding class:

(verse 7) "And I proceeded to shepherd the flock meant for the killing in your behalf O afflicted ones of the flock…"

Clearly Jehovah did not hold the sheep accountable for the failings of the shepherding class according to this account. Rather, he himself personally now stepped in and took direct responsibility for their shepherding until they themselves also rebelled. But things seem to get even more interesting when we continue reading in this same chapter. Let's focus in for now on verses 10 and 11:

10 "So I took my staff Pleasantness, and cut it to pieces, in order to break my covenant that I had established with all the peoples. 11 And it came to be broken in that day, and the afflicted ones of the flock who were watching me got to know in this way that it was the word of Jehovah."

Of course the only way that we humans could ever "watch" Jehovah would be by paying close attention to his word and how it relates to things we might begin to witness and even experience regarding the goings on of his earthly nation. But take note of how Jehovah once again is specifically addressing not the shepherding class, but rather "all the peoples," which he also once again refers to as the "flock" as opposed to the shepherd.
Now with this in mind, let's back up just a bit and take a closer look at verse 8:

8 "And I finally effaced three shepherds in one lunar month, as my soul gradually became impatient with them, and also their own soul felt a loathing toward me."

I am certain that others will or already have formed various ideas as to exactly what this symbolic language is trying to convey, and that there is even a chance that I myself might adjust my view on this as long as there remains as Paul says, "a dullness of sensibilities" among the new nation. (Ro 11:25) (Which I'm sure will continue until the event described as the sudden "changing" of all the remaining ones of the slave class into "incorruptible and immortal" spirit persons during "the last trumpet.") (1 Cor 15:51, 52) Nevertheless, I will share my current view of what this actually means based on the reference scriptures that I am currently aware of or am otherwise taking into account:

First of all I find it interesting that if we were to apply the "day for a year" formula that seems to consistently be used in the scriptures in connection with the calculations of the "coming of the messiah," (Nu 14:34) (Ez 4:6) this 30 year time span seems to fit rather closely into the time span in the first century between which both the Apostle Paul speaks of an "apostasy" (around 65CE) (2 Th 2:3) (2 Cor 6:14-17) of the shepherding class, and John speaks of one in connection with the "little children." (Around 98CE) (1 Joh 2:18) Bear in mind that this "coming" of the "prince of the army of Jehovah" (Jos 5:14) is consistently associated in the scriptures with an act of war against Jehovah's nation. In turn this act of war is always associated with a "conquering of the holy ones" which in turn is always connected to an "apostasy" or a "leaving of the holy covenant" by those "acting wickedly against the holy covenant" an subsequently forming an adulterous one with the "wild beast" or "king of the north." (Re 11:7, 13:7) (Da 11:30-32)

This is exactly the reason that we always find a "trumpet blast" in the very same context of these acts of war against Jehovah's nation. A trumpet blast is of course a call to arms which in this case always results in a "coming" of the "prince of the army of Jehovah" along with the angelic army itself. (Ho 5:8) (1 Cor 14:8) (1 Th 4:16) Take note that this particular event in the book of Joshua coincided with the death of Moses and Aaron (once again a symbolic picture of the final spiritual death of the nation before the great tribulation) and the subsequent appointing of Joshua and Caleb as the new shepherds, as opposed to merely their anointing. I can assure you that this event as well as its timing in this prophetic drama was no coincidence. What I am suggesting is that while an anointing by the holy spirit is actually what constitutes the Christ, (at least by strict definition as Christ literally means-anointed one), an actual appointing or re-appointing of this entity ("Christs brothers"), which is always necessary after these acts of adulterous apostasy, constitutes a "coming" of this very same Christ or anointed one. In other words it appears to me that the parable in Mt 13:33 is simply one of many scriptural anomalies that is symbolically depicting the very same thing that the Apostle John is elaborating on in detail in his book of Revelation. This is namely that there would be a total of three spiritual "leavenings" or corruptings as well as subsequent "baptisms of holy spirit and fire" (the throwing into the oven of this fully fermented bread) or cleansings of the new Christian nation before the great tribulation would begin.

Instead of obediently "fleeing to the mountains" (in a spiritual sense of course) when this final foretold apostasy (Mt 24:15) (2 Th 2:3) or spiritual "sleep" arrives, the "foolish virgins" (identified as "virgins" due to the adulterous breaking of the marital covenant with the Christ) do exactly what was pictured by the 1st century scribes and Pharisees, namely: They now as pictured also with prophetic figures such as the Belshazzar entity in ancient Babylon (evidently used much like the ancient Pharaoh to represent the cursed spiritual condition of God's people during the periods of this spiritual "sleep") (Re 11:8) wickedly and rebelliously remain on what are now imaginary thrones (so to speak) and by so doing they in effect utter the exact words prophetically pictured as coming out of the mouth of the "great harlot" in Revelation 18:7

…"I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning." Compare (Is 47:8)

The "discreet virgins" during these periods of apostasy on the other hand, or should we say the repentant portion of what is now a spiritual "harlot," are represented with prophetic pictures such as "Rahab" ("the harlot") of ancient Jericho, and they take a rather different approach to this situation. Another good example of this would be the prophetic figure that played the role of the antithesis of the Babylonian Belshazzar entity. This would be yet another Chaldean entity that upon the sudden recognition of the dire spiritual condition of his "great city," (Jonah 3:2) compare (Re 17:18) (Re 11:8) (yet another symbolic representation of "catching sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing in the holy place") compare (Re 17:5b, 6b) to (Mt 24:15), he does exactly the opposite of ancient Belshazzar, or the opposite of what was once again also depicted with the ancient scribes and Pharisees, namely:

6 "When the word reached the king of Nineveh, then he rose up from his throne, and put off his official outer garment from himself and covered himself with sackcloth and sat down among the ashes.7 (Jonah 3:6)

Take note once again how these actions represented here are in direct contrast to the "wicked and sluggish" or "foolish" portion of the "great city" or "great harlot" during these periods of apostasy. (Re 18:7) Rather than trying to pretend that everything is still okay ("peace and security") (1Th 5:3) (Jer 8:11) and wickedly remaining on what are now illegitimate thrones, attempting to retain their "official outer garment," these repentant and obedient "discreet virgins" now "step off their figurative thrones (representing the humble and repentant acknowledgement of the loss of the shepherding authority that always accompanies these apostasies), and they then humbly and repentantly don "sackcloth" and "sit down among the ashes." But what exactly is being symbolically represented here by these two actions of "putting on sackcloth, and sitting down among the ashes"?

We likely recall that this was customarily done by the ancient Israelites during periods of mourning, and this should be among our first clues as to the symbolic meanings involved here. (2 Sa 3:31) (Es 4:1) Keep in mind that the reason that this loss of shepherding authority of God's people has occurred in the first place is due to the spiritual death that results from adulterous apostasy. Death in turn is the initial part of a baptism, which in turn is exactly the way that Jehovah must now cleanse and restore the nation and its shepherding authority. Bear in mind however that these foretold baptisms or cleansings of the nation were identified by Jesus as a "baptism of holy spirit and fire." Ashes are of course exactly what are left over when the fire has completely run its course or fulfilled its purpose, and it is exactly this fiery cleansing of the nation that is being symbolically represented here. (Mt 3:11) Just as demonstrated as well as prophetically pictured by the way that Jesus Christ accepted the community responsibility for the sin of Jehovah's people and laid down his fleshly body for it in the first century, his true "brothers" must now do the same. This is exactly why the spiritual "conquerings" and "killings" of Jehovah's "two witnesses" or "prophets" (also identified as "holy ones") are always accompanied also with both a literal as well as a spiritual resurrection. (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12 12:5, 13:7)

This restoration of shepherding authority and by extension a clean and approved standing before Jehovah in turn results in a spiritual revival of the entire nation and all of its repentant citizens. The "foolish virgins" also enter into this very same spiritual "sleep" or death (baptism of "holy spirit and fire"), but unlike their discreet brothers, they do not experience a subsequent spiritual revival. The only awakening that they eventually receive is exactly what was represented in the case of Judas Iscariot in the first century. This was the sudden coming to terms with the gravity of his sin shortly before his literal death and destruction. (Mt 27:4, 5) These same ones were represented or symbolized also with prophetic dramas such as the death of the Egyptian "firstborn males" in ancient Egypt, or with the men that threw Daniel's three Hebrew companions into the fiery furnace in ancient Babylon. (Da 3:22) This is actually the apostate king Saul entity being represented here, ("foolish virgins") who is now "hurling his spear" at the newly anointed shepherd boy David. These "foolish virgins" do not survive this "baptism of holy spirit and fire." Like the wicked and jealous Haman of ancient Persia, they wish to hang the righteous Mordecai entity on the figurative fifty foot pole, but they themselves end up being hung on it in the sense that they do not experience any resurrection or any coming up out of these baptismal waters. Meanwhile, the righteous "shepherd boy" entity must now "flee to the mountains" or "wilderness" to escape these murderous intentions of the wicked Saul entity. This is just another symbolic representation of the way in which the "discreet virgins" must now "get out from among" what are now actually considered by Jehovah as "lawless unbelievers." Yes these ones are now a part of the proverbial "man of lawlessness." (2 Cor 6:14, 17) (2 Th 2:3) But what exactly do these "discreet virgins" now do while they are out in this spiritual "wilderness" now "separated" from the apostate nation?

Well first of all, just as symbolically represented by the way the ancient Hebrews now ate the "manna" or the bread from heaven, the repentant Rahab-like portion of this spiritual "harlot" or "Ninevite" (a Chaldean "great city") now feed only on the "unleavened bread," which of course represented the unadulterated truths of Jehovah's word. The Holy Spirit that they are now constantly being massaged with however, (as symbolized with the ancient Esther and her companions being "massaged with oil"), moves them into a very specific action that was prophetically pictured with ones such as John the Baptist in the first century. As Jesus himself said, this symbolic representation of the "discreet virgins" now begins to serve as a "voice crying out in the wilderness" to "prepare the way of Jehovah" saying "repent you people, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." (Mt 3:1-3 11:10) Moreover this is exactly what is next being represented here in Jonah Chapter 3.

Furthermore he had the cry made, and he had it said in Nineveh, by the decree of the king and his great ones, saying:
"No man and no domestic animal, no herd and no flock, should taste anything at all. None should take food. Even water they should not drink. 8 And let them cover themselves with sackcloth, man and domestic animal; and let them call out to God with strength and come back, each one from his bad way and from the violence that was in their hands. Who is there knowing whether the true God may turn back and actually feel regret and turn back from his burning anger, so that we may not perish."(Jon 3:6-10)

This "cry" that is being represented here in this symbolic language is the very same "voice that is crying out in the wilderness" which in turn was ultimately foretold to coincide with all three occasions that the "kingdom of the heavens" would suffer the effects of a "leavening" at the hands of the proverbial "Pharisees." (Mt 16:6) The specific wording of this "cry in Nineveh" however is I believe a prime example of the tremendous value of always factoring in all of the various scriptural references to any given subject and thereby allowing the scriptures to do exactly what they were foretold to do, namely: interpret themselves. (Ge 40:8) (2:28-30)

Here in verse seven of Jonah Chapter three we are helped to better understand exactly what is involved in "fleeing to the mountains" (Mt 24:15) or otherwise "getting out from among" and "separating ourselves" from what would now be an apostate nation. The moment we finally "catch sight" with our eyes of spiritual understanding of the "disgusting thing" or "man of lawlessness" that now is "standing" directly in Jehovah's "sanctuary" or "holy place," we are after all now commanded to "repent," for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." (2 Cor 6:17) (Da 11:31) (Mt 4:17) Once again there is a community responsibility involved here with this great sin of spiritual harlotry. Furthermore any spiritual death of the nation is always followed shortly thereafter by a spiritual re-birth, or yet another "coming of the kingdom!" After all this is a baptism, which always involves not simply a spiritual death but also a subsequent revival or resurrection. Once again, a "harvest" always follows a planting which of course represented a spiritual death. This is actually the apostate King Jehoiakim entity that has now crawled into bed once again with the figurative Babylonians by means of an adulterous covenant that ultimately subjugated him. (2 Ki 24:1) However there is always a repentant remnant of this adulterous entity ("discreet virgins") that just as pictured symbolically with the ancient Jonah, now begin to "call out" and even "cry from the belly of Sheol…" (Jonah 2:1) So once again this particular call to repentance that is symbolically represented here in Jonah Chapter 3 is worded in the following way:

7"No man and no domestic animal, no herd and no flock, should taste anything at all. None should take food. Even water they should not drink." (Jon 3:7)

What is actually being represented here with this symbolic language is exactly what was represented in prophetic pictures such as with the ancient Daniel and his three Hebrew companions when they suddenly found themselves in exile or Babylonian captivity. We might recall that unlike the many thousands of other Hebrews that went into exile with them, they refused to "pollute themselves with the delicacies of the king and his drinking wine." (Da 1:8) The way that I am personally understanding this symbolic language, is that it is with reference to the "leavened" or spiritually polluted teachings that would now be emanating from the "foolish virgins" that have remained behind instead of "fleeing to the mountains." Much like the ancient chief priests, scribes and Pharisees, they have opted to remain behind and curry favor with their figurative Roman captors and serve essentially as puppet kings to the flock. In this manner they intend to begin fleecing this flock of both their spiritual and material wealth in an effort to maintain control over them while retaining their positions of prominence and wealth. (Joh 11:48)

In other words, we do not now simply stop attending the meetings and assemblies held by these "foolish virgins." We need to also understand that all the literature is now polluted or "leavened" as well. We need to deal with it accordingly and throw it in the garbage. Just as prophetically pictured in Isaiah 28:8, the feeding tables of this apostate nation have now become "full of filthy vomit." One of the things that is critical for us to understand concerning these foretold periods of apostasy, is that the moment the "constant feature" (pure worship) is "removed" and the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" is "put in its place" (Da 11:31), Jehovah's angels and holy spirit "abandon" the "house" or "sanctuary." (Mt 23:28) This means that the demons are now free to overrun it. This in turn is exactly what is being depicted symbolically in accounts such as Revelation 18:2.

"And she has become a dwelling place of demons, and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation, (compare Re 16:13, 14) and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird!" Compare (Da 4:33 7:4) (Re 12:14)

I have no doubt that this is the very same phenomenon that is being symbolically represented in the prophetic drama in which ancient King Saul experienced something rather interesting the moment that Jehovah's holy spirit was removed from him.

"And the very spirit of Jehovah departed from Saul, and a bad spirit from Jehovah terrorized him." (1 Sa 16:14)

This demonic overthrow and invasion of the "abandoned house" by what is after all identified as the third part of a "three part great city," (Babylon the Great) namely: the "dragon," (Re 16:13, 19 17:18) is of course one of the very reasons that we must now "fly to the wilderness" (Re 12:14) to begin being "fed" with the "unleavened bread" or the "vegetables" of Jehovah's word. (Da 1:16) (Lu 12:37)

One of the things that I am trying to say here is that when we actually start to pay close attention to Jehovah's word and also begin "rendering our sacred service with our power of reason," one of the first things we will realize is we have been lied to concerning what actually constitutes Babylon the Great. (Ac 17:11) (Ro 12:1) In order for it to be possible to ever become "leavened" or corrupted, one would first have to be clean and pure. In like manner, for one to ever even be in a position to become a spiritual adulterer or "harlot" in Jehovah's eyes, one would first have to be in a marriage covenant with Jehovah. This is one of the reasons that this very same "man of lawlessness" was also prophetically pictured with Judas Iscariot. It is the "ones leaving the holy covenant" that now become the "false prophet" and in turn the third part of the "three part great city" which is also called Babylon the Great." It is actually this "three part" entity that is "put in its place" when the "constant feature" is "removed." In turn this is the {replacement Christ} which as I've already mentioned happens to be the exact definition of antichrist if we were to take the trouble of actually looking it up. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Babylon the Great does not and never did represent simply "false religion" in general, which the JW's have of course long been teaching.

One of the things that this means is that if we are serious about singling out and actually pinpointing the nation or organization that is actually guilty of this spiritual adultery, one of the things we would need to look for is a religious organization that at least at some point in time actually did not have political ties or connections. What is more, since the Apostle John makes it clear that there would be an additional two times that the true nation would be cleansed of spiritual adultery well after the first century, with the final two occasions occurring shortly before the great tribulation, this would mean that we should be able to identify this entity right here in our modern times. (Re 11:11-15)

There are several reasons why I still have my eye on the JW organization as the prime candidate for this "false prophet" or third part of this "three part Great City," but the following would be two of them:

This organization is currently the only one that I can think of that could qualify as a religious "nation" (from a scriptural perspective), while at the same time would appear at least at some point to have truly been politically and militarily neutral. Secondly, they are the only one that I am aware of that (just as demonstrated with the ancient Apostles) ever officially and openly accepted responsibility for the spiritual apostasy and corresponding cleansing described in Revelation 11:7-12. If anyone can produce any solid evidence of a different religious nation that might fit the bill here, I am more than happy to seriously consider it.

I wish I knew why some of the settings keep jumping around on me here with the formatting. Anyway, I would be happy to consider any thoughts or input you or anyone might have on this.
Meanwhile, with regard to your statements on Genesis 25:23:

"Gen 25:23 the older
H7227 rab rab by contracted from H7231 abundant (in quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality)
from
H7231 rabab raw-bab' a primitive root; properly, to cast together (compare H7241), i.e. increase, especially in number; also (as denominative from H7233) to multiply by the myriad

Gen 25:23 the younger
H6810 tsa`iyr tsaw-eer' or tsanowr {tsaw-ore'}; from H6819 little; (in number) few; (in age) young, (in value) ignoble
from
H6819 tsa`ar tsaw-ar' a primitive root; to be small, i.e. (figuratively) ignoble"
__________________________________________________________________

I have no problem with the literal definitions of any of the original Hebrew words that were used in this scripture. What I am actually suggesting is that you may have mistakenly combined two portions of the same scripture. For example, Goodspeeds American Translation renders this scripture in the following way:

…"Two nations are in your womb, And the two peoples have been hostile ever since conception in you; (seemingly a reference to Genesis 3:15), The one people shall master the other, (which seems to correlate to the seed that does the "bruising in the head"), And the older shall serve the younger."
What I am saying here is that it appears to me that you have actually sort of combined the last two statements or sentences into one, and in so doing have distorted the real message that was being conveyed.

In connection with your statement:

"I am not sure of what you mean by citing Rom 10:2 in connectiong with healthy debates. Rom 10:2 has often been used by JWs to support their version of 'truth'. I believe Paul said this with regard to Jews of his day, did he not? Paul was speaking of a people whose teaching he knew inside out and therefore could make such a statement with confidence, but application beyond that means we assume that others … a have zeal for God but not according to accurate knowledge according to our version of what we believe to be true, which we support by cherry picked scriptures. We all do this to some degree on this forum, but doing so does not make it true or more accurate it simply reveals where we are in our understanding and how we personally read and process scripture. I am also new here but many here, old and new alike, have been looking more deeply into scripture for many years now and are bit by bit discarding old ways of thinking and indoctrination. We learn from each other only in so far as we might pick up a scriptural thought from someone's post that we had not considered before."
___________________________________________________

I like to think that the only reason I ever cite scriptures is to direct people's attention away from myself and turn it to what is actually the only real point of authority here. In this particular case I was simply referring to exactly where I had borrowed the term "accurate knowledge" from, while simultaneously allowing God's word to remind us how important it is to always rely on the scriptures along with all their references to actually attain this "accurate knowledge." (Which I happen to think this scripture is particularly good at doing.)

For example, as I've already mentioned I respect and understand your reasoning on the way that you arrived at the conclusion of the Medo-Persian Empire being the first "wild beast" of Daniel Chapter seven. At the same time however, I am simply pointing out reference scriptures that elaborate on this vision and its symbolic meanings, and I'm suggesting the possibility that you may not have taken them into account when you formed your understanding of this vision. Perhaps I can demonstrate the danger of strictly following your line of reasoning while failing to consider reference scriptures.

Jesus at John 6:53 states: "Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves."
I'm sure all of us would agree that if we failed at this point to begin considering reference scriptures to help us ascertain the symbolic meanings Jesus is conveying here, we would quickly have a serious problem.

With regard to your statement"

"Rev 17:10 is a good example. I won’t cover it comprehensively here because it needs to have a thread on its own. But briefly - The beast the harlot rides is the same beast as that of Rev13 which includes the slaughtered healed head - with each head being representative of a nation beast. At Rev 17:10, 11 John sees it as it appeared late in the first century. Homing in on one of the heads he says … and the wild beast head that you saw in the earlier vision that was but is not it is also itself and eighth king but springs from the seven… Ask yourself which of the heads/beasts was had been, but was not, no longer existed at the time John received this vision. It is the same head/beast whose ascent out of the abyss - death like state - was still future (Rev 17:8) late in the first century.
And it springs from the seven in the sense that it is a man-made reconstituted Frankenstein that had life breathed into it 1948 by mandate of the U.N. And it becomes an eighth king over and above the 7 headed beast because it is a power to reckoned with in its own right, even as it is now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... _Palestine
But this is not the place for such a discussion."

I get the feeling that both of us think that this would be a very good discussion to have at some point, and I would be happy to do so. For now however I will simply say the following:
As I've already touched on, my personal view of this based on what I think you are saying here is that you are once again allowing yourself to be overly distracted by fleshly or physical things in a setting or context that since the first century onward has basically been transformed into spiritual things. From the time that Jesus "fulfilled the law" forward, "there is neither Jew nor Greek" in a fleshly sense from a scriptural perspective. There is however no shortage of deceptive or misleading distractions that satan and his cronies have always employed to "mislead if possible even the chosen ones." (Mt 24:24) Yes I will admit that this statement by Paul is an oversimplification. But once again its full meaning is revealed by examining and comparing the scriptural references, and all the more so when accompanied by prayerful meditation. Due to scriptures such as Galatians 3:28, I don't see any possible way for us to even recognize any literal/fleshly modern day nation of either Israel or Palestine, let alone attempt to factor them into fulfillment of scriptural prophecy. Nevertheless as I've stated before, in view of the prophetic time frame that I believe we are now in, I think the most important thing here is that we are all having these discussions in the first place. (Mal 3:16) I certainly do not expect everyone to see eye to eye with me on everything that I say. But by the same token others should not necessarily expect the same of me. As you yourself pointed out, having these interchanges of thoughts and ideas will tend to gradually influence an adjustment in the way that all of us understand holy text. I personally have already experienced the truth of this position.

Regards;

Sol

[jo-el]

I found it rather interesting that in quoting the Septuagint passage in Hebrews, which originally has David saying that his EARS would be PIERCED it morphs into a BODY being PREPARED. So in the Law, VOLUNTARILY assuming the position of servant, the EAR would be PIERCED and of course Messiah voluntarily submits to His Fathers will. When translated into Greek, before Christ came, the alternate but incredibly apt rendering occurs. And the author of Hebrews chooses to quote from LXX.

I found this excellent explanation on StackExchange, this is just to provide better information on how this could have come about: http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/q ... e-hebrew-t

The Hebrew verb to pierce (כָּרָה = H3738) in Psalm 40:6 is the same triliteral root for the Hebrew verb to prepare (כָּרָה = H3739). For example, this second verb (כָּרָה = H3739) appears translated in 2 Ki 6:23 as "prepared." In other words, both verbs have the exact same triliteral root, but have different meanings. The LXX translators had thus understood the verb in this verse not as H3738 ("pierced"), but as H3739 ("prepared").

Additionally the LXX translators understood the word "ears" as metonymy for obedience. Thus the proper rendering in Hebrew would be that the Lord prepared the ears of David for obedience to the Lord. In contradistinction, the ears of King Saul were unprepared:


1 Sam 15:22 (NASB)
22 Samuel said, “Has the Lord as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.

In the passage of Psalm 40:6, the LXX translators did not limit the idea to the unstopping or unclogging of the ears of David, which would have been the translation of (כָּרָה = H3738), which means to pierce (or to dig into, as if unstopping of unclogging the ears). The LXX translators went farther: they understood that the Lord had prepared (כָּרָה = H3739) the ears of David in order for him to hear the voice of the Lord, and thus to obey. If and when the ears obey, then the whole person follows, and in this regard King David as a person (his whole body) was a type of living sacrifice to the Lord.

[coccus ilicis]

Hello jo-el

Thank you for making the effort to find this information. I read through it and was left with distinct impression that those scholars knew that the bone of contention is atonement theology and their ruminations on the matter were more about explaining the problem away and thereby avoiding the need to explain the rationale behind the change than explaining why and how it happened - a scenario that has a familiar feel to it.

Although many manuscripts were destroyed in 70 CE, manuscripts did survive (i.e. the Dead Sea Scrolls) so the story about the LXX being more accurate than the Masoretic Text no longer holds water. It wouldn’t surprise me if these scholars who are quoted didn't write their entries before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, thereby catching them off guard (with their pants down Rev 16:15)

Hearing and heeding as used in the OT or by Jesus has basically the same connotation it does in English. If one says emphatically ‘did you hear me’; they generally mean listen and do as I say.

With regard to the scripture examples and the contention that 'pierce' also means 'prepare', let’s look at all of them and you can make up your own mind as to what might be the underlying motivation for the given explanation. Using normal verse search and then clicking on Strong’s number you would not have accessed the following links, but by chance (or maybe not chance) I came across these links which reflect how numbers are assigned to fit existing accepted translation of a word, or to put it another way a number is created for the same word to legitimize its usage in a designated Bible. For H3738a ‘prepare’ it does not even cite a verse only that it occurs once in the NASB Translation

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3738.htm
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3738a.htm
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3738b.htm
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3739.htm

There are two main numbers that are assigned for the Hebrew word.
H3747 Kriyth ker-eeth' from H3772 a cut; Kerith, a brook of Palestine. KJV: Cherith. H3772 karath kaw-rath' a primitive root; to cut (off, down or asunder)
as at 1 Ki 17:3, 5 Cherith
And H3738 karah kaw-raw' a primitive root; properly, to dig; figuratively, to plot; generally, to bore or open

At H3738 link above you will see a list of scriptures in the right hand column (inc Ps 40:6) where this word is used. But assigning different numbers to the same word with no explanation given other that that is what it means 'here' smacks of fudging to me.

I was just checking to see if I could find anything else about the development of atonement theology and came across these two articles that ring true because they take human nature and its frailty into account. Satan has his own way of twisting things, but he needs to use humans who generally like to think they are doing the right thing, so 'Jesus' teaching' morphing into his 'dead body' being the means of salvation could easily have come about in the way explained first article. The second link looks at church history right up to the present and again takes human nature into account. I just happened to stumble across these two articles by chance - if not by chance then maybe we are really on to something that will not go away.
https://anabaptistredux.com/atonement-t ... n-history/
https://anabaptistredux.com/church-hist ... -theology/