Why did Adam Choose to die?

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#21 Post by coccus ilicis » 4 months ago

lynchpin wrote: 4 months ago Hi ci,

I'm surprised that you had no knowledgw of this due to your own background from being a jw.

Good that goghtherefore brought this subject up to learn something new for your research. :)

I've supplied a coule of links re soul as the early Watchtower mags were written more to the point or as you say 'spot on'. The early magazines were the ones I gained the most from as a kid ...reading my grandmother's stash under her bed.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1990243

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1958172

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/110 ... soul&p=par

Animals are souls copied from above link-
8 In the Bible the word “soul” applies not only to humans but also to animals. For example, in describing the creation of sea creatures, Genesis 1:20 says that God commanded: “Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls.” And on the next creative day, God said: “Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.” (Genesis 1:24; compare Numbers 31:28.) Hence, “soul” can refer to a living creature, whether human or animal.

lp
Hi lp,

I knew all the above, and confirmed the WT teaching. And I remember the WT saying that Nephesh/souls were breathers, but what surprised me is that nephesh/soul, literally means refresher. So when God said: let the earth put forth living refreshers according to their kind, (Gen 1:24), this is what he meant:

LRW~

lynchpin
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#22 Post by lynchpin » 4 months ago

Hi again ci,

I understand the video showing our body parts being refreshed.
We are amazingly designed.

Just haven't been able to locate the word 'refresher' in Genesis 1:24 relating to our bodies,ourselves as souls/nephesh.

Searched here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... v/wlc/0-1/

Regards lp

AmosAU
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#23 Post by AmosAU » 4 months ago

Hi LP,

I've also checked several sources and can't find any reference to refresher, as CI has said.
Like CI, I'm also continually trying to get a better understanding of the written word.

I currently have several new topics in their infancy. I've been very busy doing some much needed work around the house and yard. I'm about half way through the alterations, so it will be a few weeks yet before I can finish any articles.

Regards, Amos.

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#24 Post by coccus ilicis » 4 months ago

goghtherefore wrote: 4 months ago Hi coccus ilicis

Re: "So it appears that everlasting life is granted to them at the end of the thousand years and not before." And: "So it is only at the end of the thousand-year reign that people no longer die."

1 Thessalonians 4 describes ones that will "ever be with the Lord"; long before the end of the thousand years:

"15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

goghtherefore
Hello goghtherefore,

You are quite right, I should have clarified what I meant when I said 'people' are granted everlasting life only at the end of the thousand-year rule.

Paul wrote about the ones that would go to heaven, saying: Look I tell you a sacred secret flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom ... We shall not all fall asleep in death but we shall be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye during the last trumpet. For that which is corruptible must put on incorruption ... For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, (1Cor 15:42,52). They no longer possess flesh and blood bodies that continually need to refresh.

They become spirit beings when they are called to heaven at the time of the sounding of the 7th trumpet, (Rev 11:11,12,15].

And it says of them at Dan 12:10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined and no wicked ones at all will understand, The 'will be refined' is the only passive verb there, and it is Jesus who does the refining, Mal 3:2,3).

Image
(strikethrough, arrows, underline and added text mine),

That means that the 'cleansing and whitening' is done by them. And that not all do this is alluded to in Dan 12:2,10 where it says some would wake up to everlasting abhorrence ... and the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly and no wicked ones at all will understand, (Dan 12:2,10).

When the mother of the sons of Zebedee, James and John, asked Jesus if they could sit on his right and left when he comes into his kingdom. He told them that they did not know what they were asking. First, they would have to drink the same cup he was about to drink. They said they could do that. Then he said: You will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father, (Mt 20:20-23). In other words, God is the one that chooses those who rule with his son in heaven.

The ball is in his court, and his choice can seem quite arbitrary from our standpoint. When Jesus had been amazed at the Roman army officer's faith he had said to those following him : With no one in Israel, have I found so great a faith. But I tell you that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens, whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where their weeping and gnashing of their teeth will be, (Mt 8:8-12). Another example was after Judas had killed himself and the disciples cast lots to see who would replace him and they chose Matthias to be the twelfth apostle, (Acts 1:26). But then God chose Saul/Paul to take the lead because the disciple-making work had come to a standstill, (Acts 5:12,13). Paul had hated the followers of Jesus and persecuted them, but he was the one chosen because he was needed. He bore Jesus's name to all the sons of Israel, the nations and to kings. And his work ensured that what Jesus had taught survived to our day, (Acts 9:1,15,16).

Those called to heaven during the sounding of the seventh trumpet are changed in the twinkling of an eye when they relinquish their flesh and blood bodies. And anyone who is sure they are going to heaven may be fooling themselves, the final selection is still pending. Jehovah knows whom he needs for the heavenly administration and chooses accordingly,
LRW~

lynchpin
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#25 Post by lynchpin » 4 months ago

Hi co,

I found ‘naphesh’ meaning refresher in your post 16 and now know what you mean as more details to understand your point. :)

lp

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#26 Post by coccus ilicis » 4 months ago

lynchpin wrote: 4 months ago Hi again ci,

I understand the video showing our body parts being refreshed.
We are amazingly designed.

Just haven't been able to locate the word 'refresher' in Genesis 1:24 relating to our bodies, ourselves as souls/nephesh.

Searched here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... v/wlc/0-1/

Regards lp
Hi lp,

Re: Gen 1:24. That it because English translations have rendered nephesh 5315 in a multitude of different ways wherever it occurs as shown in the snip from the biblehub site below.
Image

But if you click on 5315 on the biblehub site here, Gen 1:24. Now scroll down the left-hand column until you come to the heading: Strongs Exhaustive Concordance, it says: From naphash. Then click on the naphash link. There it says:

naphash: to be refreshed
Original Word: נָפַשׁ
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: naphash
Phonetic Spelling: (naw-fash')
Definition: to be refreshed

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
denominative verb from nephesh


So the verb of nephesh, aka/also known as, soul, is to 'refresh,' thus the noun would be 'refresher.'.

The lexicographers obviously knew what the nephesh, aka soul, meant but when rendering the word in English were guided by church doctrines. They like most people needed to dance to the tune of the one who pays the piper: Google: the person who pays for something controls how it is done.
LRW~

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#27 Post by coccus ilicis » 4 months ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 4 months ago
coccus ilicis wrote: 4 months ago

Lexicographers could have saved themselves much time and trouble if they had not been misled by the immortal soul doctrine.
Yes.


This doctrine actually came into the church very early. As quoted by Justin Martyr in the 2nd century.

"You may have fallen in with some who are ‘called’ “Christians“. However they do not admit this [truth], and they venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham… They say there is no resurrection of the dead, but rather, they say that when they die, their souls are taken to heaven. Do not imagine that they are Christians.” – Justin Martyr (160 CE)
Thank you Proselytiser, for that quote from Justin Martyr.
LRW~

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#28 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

When did they begin to fear death?

Adam's history only lists the names of surviving sons, (Gen 5:4), all of whom would have known what death was. Yes, they knew God had created man for a purpose but as far as they knew the finality of death outside the garden of Eden was real. It appears that it was around that time they started to call on the name of the Gods, (Gen 5:26), This was the start of religion.

After Cain killed Abel Jehovah said to Cain: "Cursed you are [in banishment] from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's bloods from your hand. When you till the ground, no longer shall it yield its strength to you, a wandering fugitive you shall become in the earth," (Gen 4:11,12).

Cain thought that his banishment from the vicinity of the land bordering the garden of Eden, where the cherubs offered a measure of protection was too severe, and so said: “My guilt is greater than I can bear. Today you have driven me from the face of the ground/adamah and from your face I shall be hidden and I shall be a wandering fugitive in the earth and it will come to pass that anything/anyone finding me will kill me ,(Gen 4:13,14,26).

Cain feared death, but at whose hand?

Before creating Adam, the Gods had created an array of creatures big and small many of them predatory flesh-eaters, (Gen 1:20,21,22). Many of these still existed outside the Garden of Eden when Adam was created. Other animals were then created inside the G of E (Gen 2:19,20), which most likely were the ones that Noah brought into the ark, (cf. Gen 9:2; De 11:25). But besides those wild predatory creatures, were there also non-Adamic humanoids whom Cain feared?

With DNA testing it has now been established that Neanderthal and modern man (Adam) overlapped and even interbred.



I suggest when watching this video that one ignores all the theoretical comments including the long time periods that are arrived at using radiocarbon dating which is founded on an incorrect assumption. But note the facts, i.e. that modern man appeared suddenly with no apparent ancestor and that DNA indicates he interbred with Neanderthal
How Much Neanderthal DNA do Humans Have? We all have a little Neanderthal in us. The amount varies a bit, from less than a percent to likely over 2 percent, depending on our heritage. East Asians seem to have the most Neanderthal DNA in their genomes, followed by those of European ancestry. Africans, long thought to have no Neanderthal DNA, were recently found to have genes from the hominins comprising around 0.3 percent of their genome... That genetic material is the result of interbreeding between our two groups at some point in the past., (underline mine)

The research is in its infancy and the above is only based on what they have found thus far, but it nonetheless shows that modern man, Adam's family, interbred with Neanderthal. These were the ones that Cain feared might kill him. And so Jehovah gave him a sign for him that no one finding him should strike him. (Gen 4:15)

So, even though Cain had killed his brother, Jehovah still cared for his welfare saying: For that reason anyone killing Cain must suffer vengeance seven times. And so Jehovah set up a sign for Cain in order that no one finding him should strike him. And so Cain went away from the face of Jehovah to reside in the land of Nod/fugitiveness. There Cain found a wife and had intercourse with her and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch, (Gen 4:15, 16).

Be it ever so unwillingly, now centuries after Darwin, science and religion are converging and completing the story of man.

And I request the Father to give you another helper, to be with you forever, the spirit of truth ... the helper the holy/set apart spirit of truth, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I have taught you, (Jhn 14:16,17,26).
LRW~

Sevenz
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#29 Post by Sevenz » 2 months ago

.
Hello ci,

I'm putting this reply up as simply and short as possible re 'Testing'

Having Revelation 20:7 - 10 in mind as a 'testing' upon the millions of people who are living on a cleansed, peace- filled Eden earth (as it was in the beginning). These ones are not under 'protective custody' ie as in a prison. They are in a loving relationship with their father with no desire on their part to choose to leave.

However, at the end of Christ's thousand-year reign on earth, Satan is released from the bottomless pit and this event tragically results in a rebellion. The number who rebel with Satan are said to be "as the sand of the sea". Despite that reign of Christ whereby the majority of people have learned to love and obey their king, many will still be harbouring wickedness in their heart and mind and will ultimately follow Satan.

God will for the final time, test people for their obedience (just as he did with Adam) as these rebellious ones will not submit to God's ways and are undeserving to live in the Kingdom. These will not continue to live as Adam had to outside of Eden...these will no longer exist full stop.

Regards, lp
Hi Lynchpin,

I really enjoyed reading your post.

As I consider what the Bible says will happen, both during the 1,000-year-reign of Christ and at its end, I am left feeling both SAD and GLAD.
It is SADDENING to know that some people (a HOARD of them in fact) will rebel with Satan and forfeit their opportunity to live forever and ever. But at the same time, it makes GLAD to know that Earth's entire population thereafter will be made up of trustworthy, righteous, holy people. Life will truly be wonderful then, knowing that everyone alive loves Jehovah God and their neighbors. No need to lock the doors anymore, etc. I wonder what life on Venus will be like after Jehovah makes the Planet habitable. And assuming that Venus will be the next Planet that mankind will inhabit once the earth is comfortably filled with righteous, God-fearing people, what Planet will be next? Then when every Planet in our Solar System is teeming with happy people, what will be the next Solar System? And how many Planets does it have? And then eventually, when every single Solar System in our Galaxy is filled to capacity with holy people (and of course with all kinds of animals that we love), what will be the next Galaxy. Imagine being privileged to take a vacation and live for a few hundred years on Venus before returning home to Earth. Imagine being able to travel to a distant Galaxy and live on one or more of the Planets in one of its Solar Systems.

Will such things be possible to those who gain everlasting life? Personally, I am convinced that that is exactly what we will do. I am quite sure that all those Planets, Suns, and Galaxies are not out there in the night sky just to twinkle. Scientific knowledge has increased in our day to where we have proof that other Galaxies exist, thanks to the Hubble Telescope. And there are probably millions (or perhaps even billions) of Galaxies out there in what would be called the second Heaven. Remembering that the apostle Paul actually went to the third Heaven (which, BTW, is where the angels reside), we are enabled to understand that that Heaven begins at the outer edge of the second Heaven. That's a lot of territory (real estate) to try to contemplate it all being populated by Adam and Eve's offspring, but we will have forever to do it IF we don't foolishly rebel with Satan at the end of Christ's reign.

There are two types of people that I truly feel sorry for: 1) I feel sorry for people who don't know how to appreciate animals, especially puppies (dogs of all breeds). I truly pity people who don't own a puppy, because they don't know what they are missing out on. 2) I feel sorry for people who are ignorant about all the things I spoke about up above. The only way they are going to learn is by being taught, and this is the reason Jesus said what he did at Matthew 28:19, 20.

.

lynchpin
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Re: Why did Adam Choose to die?

#30 Post by lynchpin » 2 months ago

Hello Sevenz,
Thank you re your reply. :))

I can agree that the galaxies are not just there for twinkling in our night sky.
I live in a rural mountain area and late at night I occasionally go outside and look up to the sky as it's the best time to view. They take one's breath away viewing these with the right equipment. It may be possible for humans to visit them close up further along in the future.

A couple of older view points from Watchtower below makes for an interesting read.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1954167
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101995883

I'm a dog lover...having two dogs, elderly male, number 1 dog, aged 15, number 2 dog, female, age 7 years. They are wonderful company. As people these days have dog companions, much more knowledge has been clarified.

https://www.abc.net.au/science/articles ... 191191.htm

Regards,
lp

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