The Beasts oF Daniel and Revelation

[coccus ilicis]

I am posting this New Topic because 'Get out of her' has posted several long replies on this subject in the Revelation - where are we in the Stream of time' topic. I know how difficult it is to stop once one gets the bit between one's teeth and as this subject is a complex deeply held belief for many it needs to be thrashed out as a topic all on its own.

I have therefore taken the liberty of copying and pasting all the pertinent posts here, starting with post 114,here

CI wrote:

Revelation describes the US as a beast with two horns like a lamb that began speaking like a dragon.

I'm aware that the Watchtower organization presents this understanding of the two horned wild beast of Revelation 13. What I am curious about here LRW is exactly why YOU would promote it? You and I both know that a teaching is not necessarily unscriptural simply because a particular religious group advocates for it. Nevertheless the fact is I have never witnessed ANYONE actually use the scriptures along with sound reasoning to establish the above viewpoint as resting on a solid scriptural foundation. (Ro 12:1) (Ac 17:11) Perhaps you have actually made an effort to do so in an earlier post that I have not yet read. If so perhaps you wouldn't mind drawing my attention to it. Otherwise I would suggest in advance that the FIRST problem I see with this position is it presents a serious conflict with the time frame or place in the "stream of time" you are endeavoring to place us in at the moment in relation to scriptural prophecy.

I'll admit this is the first post I have read so far under this thread. (Post #113) So please be a bit patient with me if that turns out to be part of the problem here. Regardless I hope you don't mind if I ask you to please produce some evidence for your position on this which I could even begin to recognize as compelling.
Agape love;
Sol

CI wrote:

Revelation describes the US as a beast with two horns like a lamb that began speaking like a dragon.

I'm aware that the Watchtower organization presents this understanding of the two horned wild beast of Revelation 13. What I am curious about here LRW is exactly why YOU would promote it? You and I both know that a teaching is not necessarily unscriptural simply because a particular religious group advocates for it. Nevertheless the fact is I have never witnessed ANYONE actually use the scriptures along with sound reasoning to establish the above viewpoint as resting on a solid scriptural foundation. (Ro 12:1) (Ac 17:11) Perhaps you have actually made an effort to do so in an earlier post that I have not yet read. If so perhaps you wouldn't mind drawing my attention to it. Otherwise I would suggest in advance that the FIRST problem I see with this position is it presents a serious conflict with the time frame or place in the "stream of time" you are endeavoring to place us in at the moment in relation to scriptural prophecy.

I'll admit this is the first post I have read so far under this thread. (Post #113) So please be a bit patient with me if that turns out to be part of the problem here. Regardless I hope you don't mind if I ask you to please produce some evidence for your position on this which I could even begin to recognize as compelling.

Agape love;
Sol

[coccus ilicis]

post 115

CI wrote:


I'm aware that the Watchtower organization presents this understanding of the two horned wild beast of Revelation 13. What I am curious about here LRW is exactly why YOU would promote it? You and I both know that a teaching is not necessarily unscriptural simply because a particular religious group advocates for it. Nevertheless the fact is I have never witnessed ANYONE actually use the scriptures along with sound reasoning to establish the above viewpoint as resting on a solid scriptural foundation. (Ro 12:1) (Ac 17:11) Perhaps you have actually made an effort to do so in an earlier post that I have not yet read. If so perhaps you wouldn't mind drawing my attention to it. Otherwise I would suggest in advance that the FIRST problem I see with this position is it presents a serious conflict with the time frame or place in the "stream of time" you are endeavoring to place us in at the moment in relation to scriptural prophecy.

I'll admit this is the first post I have read so far under this thread. (Post #113) So please be a bit patient with me if that turns out to be part of the problem here. Regardless I hope you don't mind if I ask you to please produce some evidence for your position on this which I could even begin to recognize as compelling.

Agape love;
Sol

Hello Sol,
Thank you for asking. I wasn't aware that that is what the WT teaches, I haven't read any of their material published after I left in 2001. Since the subject is mainly covered in threads dealing with Revelation it is worthwhile to go over the subject again for any new readers.

We know from Dan 7:1-8,17,23,14 that the beast of Rev 13:1,2 is made up of body parts of these beasts. Each head is a beast in its own right. The 10 horns and crowns symbolize individual ruling entities. The number ten is symbolic but serves prophetic purposes for identifying the 8th king/beast which is the final one, see Dan 7:7,8,11,12,13,14. Rev 13:1,2 is what the conglomerate beast looked like in 1948.

Revelation then homes in on one of the heads/beasts ... and I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth marvels at the beast. This slaughtered healed head/beast is identified in Revelation chapter 17, where John sees Babylon the Great, riding a beast that was very similar to the Rev 13:1,2 beast, but it is a description of how it looked late in the first century. When he asked about that beast he is told: Why is it you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of this woman and of the beast that is carrying her, which has seven heads and ten horns. The wild beast that you see, is ,and is not, and is about to ascend out of the abyss; the abyss signifying death as at Rom 10:7. But after it is raised it goes off into destruction. And those dwelling on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation, will marvel .

In the first century, this head/beast had been but was not. It no longer existed as a nation, but only as a scattered people. It ascended out of the abyss in 1947/48 when it was granted Palestine for a homeland.

John is told that the seven heads represent seven mountains where the woman sits on top. And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one is, [the Roman Empire], and one is still to come [the Anglo/American colonial two-horned beast] and when he shall have come he must remain a little while, (Rev 17:9,10). The messenger then focuses on the slaughtered head/beast of Rev 17:8, saying: And the beast that is but is not, is also itself an eighth [king] but springs from the seven and goes off into destruction.. The 'springs from the seven' refers to the UN mandate that brought the nation-state of Israel into existence. How did they manage this, since they were not part of the UN? It was at America's behest, see, Israelis Call For Rebuilding Their Temple and Returning to Animal Sacrifices - April 27, 2022.

How did the Anglo/American two-horned lamb-like beast manage to persuade all the others to vote the nation-state of Israel into existence? What happened after America came off victorious from WW2 is described thus: And it exercises all authority in the face of the first beast, [of Rev 1:1,2]. And it makes the earth and those dwelling in it worship or pay homage to the beast/head whose death-stroke gets healed. And it performs great signs so that it even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of men, (Rev 13:12,13). It did this when it dropped the first atom bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima



After dropping the bombs the people worshipped, or submitted to the two-horned beast saying: Who is like the beast and who can do battle with it (Rev 13:4). And it used this window of opportunity caused by the signs that are given it to do, to con the people into making an image of the beast whose death stroke got healed, (Rev 13:14). This image is a copy of the crony trading that had existed amongst Jews from early times. The only ones they traded with were Jews, any others had to abide by their rules or be locked out of the marketplace,
e.g. this matchbox, Boycott of Jan 1933.
It was a tried and true trading practice that had served them well since at least the 6th century BC,see Jewish Traders of the Diaspora.

America's head start didn't last long as the USSR also got nuclear weapons, and we had the madness of the arms race. Then they signed the MAD agreement. Mad indeed, because MAD stands for 'Mutual Assured Destruction agreement.' The pushing and shoving of the cold war is described at Dan 11:40 as being between the king of the north and the king of the south. it must be remembered that they didn't picture the earth as a globe in those days, so north is west and south is east. The West won and flooded over into the listed nations, (Dan 11:41, 42,43) for details see post 20,here.

Egypt has only just pulled free. It says: But there will be reports that will disturb him [the king of the west], out of the sun rising [China] and out of the north, [Russia] and he will go forth in a great rage in order to devote many to destruction. Although a permanent member with veto rights of the UN security council, Russia has been barred since 2014. And in 2017 said it would not return. Thus Russia is currently not a member of the UN. At Dan 11:45 it says concerning the king of the west, America, that when he places his weapon systems between the seas and the mountain of decoration, he will have come all the way to his finish, and there will be none to help him, (Dan 11: 44,45). For details see post 70, here

And it says concerning the formation of the last beast, (Rev 17:12) And the ten horns that you see mean ten kings that have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the beast, [the G7 beast, the one the harlot currently rides]. Fulfilment of this is imminent, it corresponds to Dan 7:7,8,11,12,13,14. The formation of this 5th and final beast will of necessity include the current G 8, see post 113 above.

"The wild beast that you saw, it was, but now is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss." (Re 17:8)


Now since at the time that the Apostle John was writing Revelation "five" of these "kings" had already experienced the "fall" being spoken of here, would this information alone not already begin presenting difficulties with some of your assertions here? For example:

And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one is, [the Roman Empire], and one is still to come [the Anglo/American colonial two-horned beast] and when he shall have come he must remain a little while, (Rev 17:9,10).

Since the prophet Daniel explicitly identified the Babylonian world power as the first in this sequence of what would ultimately prove to be "eighth kings" that would exist as world powers prior to the Millennial Reign, and Medo-Persia and Greece obviously followed this first of the "seven kings," would Rome not qualify as the FOURTH world power in this foretold sequence? (Da 2:36-38) Admittedly the scriptures are indicating that ALL of the world powers from the fourth in this sequence to the time of the Millennial Reign would ultimately prove simply as new manifestations of this same "fourth wild beast." Nevertheless do you not already see a problem with asserting that "the Roman Empire" would qualify as the sixth in this sequence with the "Anglo-American" one as the seventh, and particularly since (right in this same verse) even the "FIFTH king" was described as having already experienced this "fall" by the end of the first century?

First of all this line of reasoning is completely overlooking that the British world power both came and went on the earthly scene before the Anglo-American one ever existed. But are you not actually endeavoring to skip over even TWO entire world powers here in this foretold sequence of kings? Perhaps we can begin getting to the bottom of this by considering the following question:

If you are to assert that at the time John was writing Revelation the "Roman World Power" qualified as the "king" identified with the words—"one is" there at Revelation 17:10, then just exactly how would you go about identifying the "fourth" and "fifth" of these "kings" who had already experienced both a rise and "fall" by this time? With that said, since the fact is that Rome actually DID exist as a world power at the time that John penned these words, have we not just now irrefutably confirmed that the "fall" being addressed here in connection with Babylon the Great is NOT a literal one, but rather the figurative or spiritual one defined for us in accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8? Have we not just conclusively established that the "fall" we are dealing with here is the one that always transforms what initially qualifies as a kind of "faithful town" into a great spiritual "prostitute"? (Isa 1:21) (1 Cor 6:15) (Re 17:10 18:2)

The fact is the moment we begin to incorporate things like this into the equation; there are MANY scriptures that suddenly begin to make perfect sense rather than remaining confusing and mysterious to us. These would include ones like Philippians 4:22 and 1 John 2:18. The reason there were "holy ones" right amongst the "household of Caesar" around the year 60 CE is the same reason such ones would ALWAYS serve as world rulers in this period of time identified also as the "appointed times of the nations" or "seven times." (Lu 21:24) (Da 4:23, 32) Just a few decades prior to this, two genuine prophets or "witnesses" of Jehovah had once again appeared on the earth to renew and inaugurate yet another holy kingdom or marriage covenant with a "few" people who were prepared to demonstrate genuine repentance for the PREVIOUS covenant that had yet again been violated with spiritual adultery. (Joh 19:15) (Re 11:3) (Mr 7:7) (Lu 22:28, 29) (He 9:16-18, 26-28) (Mt 3:1, 2 4:17 22:14)

The entire history of Jehovah's nation reveals that there is ALWAYS a rise of a new world power connected with these renewed holy covenants, and even if this new world power is assigned the very same name as the one that preceded it. Aside from taking the lead in restoring true worship to the earth, the first thing these new kings begin to do is render Jehovah's adverse judgments against the former world power and the false form of worship they are still engaged in. This is precisely the reason that the first century historian by the name of Flavius Josephus pointed out that it was an entirely new manifestation of Rome that appeared at Jerusalem in the year 70 CE to finish doing exactly that with all that now remained of the "fourth wild beast." At this point in time it was only a false or apostate form of Judaism that remained. However what a careful and cross referenced analysis of scriptures like 1 John 2:18 and Revelation 17:10 will reveal is that by only two or three decades later the holy kingdom covenant had been violated yet again on the part of Jehovah's newly appointed shepherds. So what the Apostle John is actually doing here in 1 John 2:18 is confirming the very same spiritual "fall" that he had ALREADY attested to in Revelation 17:10. Really then the only question at this point would be with regard to the king John identifies as "ONE IS" in this setting of 96 or so CE? As is always the case, coming to an accurate understanding of this involves heeding the counsel found in accounts like Romans 12:1, Isaiah 8:20 and Ephesians 6:18. Compare (Acts 17:11) (Mt 7:7, 8)

By all means let's endeavor to pick up the discussion with this question beginning with my next post.

Agape love;
Sol

[coccus ilicis]

Continued from above:

post 116

Continuing from post 115 above.
A little more needs to be said about the use of 'North' and 'South' and the 'horn' of beasts' in the book of Daniel,

What comes to mind when one hears North or South, is a map with a compass pointing north and south. Not so for people living in the 7th century BC. They didn't use maps.
Here is a picture of the earliest world map:


The Hebrew word for north is 6828. tsaphon which comes from 6845. tsaphan -to hide, As a babe, Moses was hidden in an ark, Ex 2:2. North is also referred to as the meeting place of Gods, (Isa 14:13).

South is the negeb, from an unused root meaning to be parched. in the book of Job the icy cold of winter is in juxtaposition with summer in the south, compare Job 37:9,10, to Job 37:17,18. Therefore north and south in Daniel chapter 11 refers to kings being in opposition to one another, just as summer and winter are opposite extremes.

East and West are where the sun rises and sets. The Heb. word for 'west,' as at Dan 8:4, is the sea, the Mediterranean or Red Sea, as at Hos 11:10.

One Heb. word rendered East in English is 6924. qedem which comes from the root 6923. qadam - to come or be in front as at Gen 2:8. The other Heb word is 4217. mizrach - place of sunrise, as at Dan 11:44.

Bibles have not been consistent in rendering it rising of the sun as at Isa 41:25 and Dan 11:44; see snip below:


So at Gen 2:8, east is 'in front of.' And at Isa 41:25 and Dan 11:44 it is the 'rising of the sun,' which is self-explanatory.

A beast uses its horns to fight, e.g Dan 8:3, 5,6. The horns of the political entities of Daniel and Revelation i.e. Dan 7:7,8 & Rev 13:1,11;17:3 refer to the armies they have at their disposal. Standing full-time armies first came on the stage at Sparta
The Spartan army stood at the centre of the Spartan state; citizens trained in the disciplines and honor of a warrior society ...From c. 750 BC, Sparta embarked on a steady expansion, first by subduing Amyclae and the other Laconian settlements. Later, during the First Messenian War, they conquered the fertile country of Messenia. By the beginning of the 7th century BC, Sparta was, along with Argos, the Peloponnese's dominant power Wikipedia.

It looks more complicated than it is or needs to be. All one has to do is go back in time and see the events through the eyes of a bystander and understand what they understood at that time.

post 117

CI wrote:

We know from Dan 7:1-8,17,23,14 that the beast of Rev 13:1,2 is made up of body parts of these beasts.

I would assume you mean to say specifically the "fourth wild beast" (and specifically its "horns") since it not only is the last of the four in this sequence found there at Daniel Chapter 7, but also is the only one foretold to continue producing newly emerging "horns" all the way to …"the time of the end"… according to verse 17 of Daniel Chapter 7. (Da 7:17)

Each head is a beast in its own right.

I see every reason to recognize this statement as accurate and scriptural, with accounts like Daniel 2:36-45 and Revelation 17:10 serving as confirmation of this.

While Daniel Chapter 2 AND 7 make it clear that all the world powers that would emerge between the time of the "fourth wild beast" and the "time of the end" would ultimately prove to be new manifestations of this same "fourth wild beast," (The Roman world power), Revelation 17:10, Daniel 7:8 and even many other scriptures like Jeremiah 15:9 begin directing our attention towards the specific NUMBER of world powers that would follow this "fourth wild beast" prior to the Millennial Reign. When we now factor in verse 11 of Revelation 17 into the equation and compare it with verse 8 of Daniel Chapter seven, we find confirmation that there would ultimately be four world powers that would appear on the earth after the emergence of this "fourth wild beast," or otherwise a total of "eight kings." The reason the scriptures (on the whole at least) are much more focused on the initial seven however is because they fall into the time period identified as "the appointed times of the nations." (Lu 21:24) (Da 4:23, 32) This is the time frame that is distinguished as when God's people would continue finding themselves in a situation of foreign "exile" and "captivity." (Jer 1:3)

In other words, unlike the initial seven, this "eighth king" would never enter into a covenant relationship with Jehovah, or otherwise never come to include kings that would qualify as "anointed shepherds" of Jehovah's people until the moment they violate his "holy covenant" and consequently suffer being destroyed and replaced eventually with a new world power. (Isa 44:28 45:1) (Da 11:30-32) Therefore since this mere "IMAGE of the wild beast" (like a kind of mere hollow reflection of it that nonetheless receives false worship also as an IDOLATROUS image?) never actually experiences a spiritual BIRTH, it by extension is never in a position to experience a spiritual DEATH. (Re 13:12) It is only ever in a position to experience a LITERAL death or destruction, thus it is set apart or distinguished from the "seven" foretold "births of the (figurative) "barren woman" that would unfold beginning with the year of "exile" that Jeremiah identifies in the opening words of his book. (609 BCE or otherwise the year "King Jehoiakim" began his reign) (Jer 1:3 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5) (Isa 54:1-4)

The account there at Daniel 7:12 helps us to understand that this final "8th king" is distinct also in the sense that it loses even the authority that was granted satan in the Garden of Eden when our fore-bearers chose him as their god or father over Jehovah. (Lu 4:5-7) But what is important to understand here is that this authority granted to satan (this "authority" of the "dragon" mentioned in accounts like Revelation 13:2) is NEVER utilized by these initial "seven kings" until they violate the holy kingdom covenant with spiritual "harlotry." (Isa 1:21) This is the moment when the substitution or exchange of power and authority mentioned in accounts like Daniel 11:31 or 2 Thessalonians 2:4 takes place in Jehovah's "sanctuary" or earthly "temple." (1 Cor 3:16, 17 6:15) Another way of wording this would be to say that with this tragic turn of events, the very positive things in connection with these "seven kings" or "beasts" covered in passages like the symbolic language of Daniel 4:20-22 and 7:4 now unfold in reverse order, and this is the case with ALL of these "seven kings" or world powers. The moment we come to grasp very key points such as this, we suddenly find ourselves in a position to begin genuinely comprehending what is being conveyed in scriptural statements like the following:


"The wild beast that you saw WAS, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction." (Re 17:8a)

"And there are seven kings, five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived,…" (Re 17:10)


We want to bear information like this in mind since as I will shortly demonstrate, it will soon prove very useful in actually understanding some of the issues you soon bring up here in your comments.

The 10 horns and crowns symbolize individual ruling entities. The number ten is symbolic but serves prophetic purposes for identifying the 8th king/beast which is the final one,

This is where you begin to lose me. What is it exactly about the scriptures you cite here that you could recognize as even beginning to support your claims in this case? For one thing there are at least three different "wild beasts" found in the scriptures in very different time frames that are pictured with these same "ten horns." (Da 7:7) (Re 13:1 17:3) Would this alone not already begin to present problems with the notion of them serving specifically or exclusively (as you say) "to prophetically identify the 8th king/beast which is the final one…"

see Dan 7:7,8,11,12,13,14. Rev 13:1,2 is what the conglomerate beast looked like in 1948.

The question I would pose to you here is—why exactly would you mention the year 1948 in connection with all this? Yes I realize that this year figures in prominently when it comes to "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine;" but can you direct our attention to any SCRIPTURES that would point to this year for any reason at all? (Mt 15:9) (Isa 8:20)

Revelation then homes in on one of the heads/beasts ... and I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth marvels at the beast. This slaughtered healed head/beast is identified in Revelation chapter 17, where John sees Babylon the Great, riding a beast that was very similar to the Rev 13:1,2 beast, but it is a description of how it looked late in the first century.

As I continue to demonstrate with the scriptures, we have all been heavily conditioned to overlook a very significant distinction between "Babylon the Great" and the "Great Harlot," and this continues to cause an incredible amount of confusion just as it is intended to. Babylon the Great obviously does not qualify as a "Great Harlot" when it is being ruled over by ones like the prophet Daniel and his three Hebrew companions, or "anointed shepherds" like "King Cyrus" of the Medo-Persian Empire along with Jews like Queen Esther and her uncle Mordecai. (Da 2:47-49) (Isa 44:28, 45:1) The "Great Harlot" clearly does not involve "holy ones" right among the "household of Caesar" who are all too eager to send their love and "greetings" to Christian congregations such as the Philippian one around the year of 60 CE. (Php 4:22) Just as indicated by scriptures like Revelation 17:10 or 18:2, it is only when these divinely appointed world powers experience the spiritual "fall" that is defined for us in accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 or 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 that they suddenly qualify as a kind of "Great Harlot" or even "disgusting thing." Compare (1 Joh 2:18) (Isa 1:21) (La 1:1, 4)

In other words, John does not actually (as you say) "see Babylon the Great riding a beast…" but rather a version of it that has resulted from yet another spiritual "fall." This broken holy marriage covenant always assigns a new identity to Babylon the Great which on this occasion is represented with a MUCH LONGER NAME. (Re 17:5) The spiritual adultery involved in violating the holy marriage covenant now qualifies this entity more specifically as precisely what John states in verse 5 of Revelation 17. As opposed to simply "Babylon the Great" which Jehovah actually becomes ANGRY for other ones taking credit for, (Da 4:29-32), we suddenly find a rather different name being assigned to this final foretold "wild beast" pictured there in Revelation 17. Moreover we can be certain it is no coincidence that this turn of events is represented as unfolding immediately after yet another "conquering" or spiritual death of Jehovah's "holy ones" is mentioned at Revelation 13:7. Let's not forget that if anything a LITERAL "killing" of Jehovah's "faithful stewards" or "two witnesses" always constitutes a "conquering" of Jehovah's ENEMIES! (Joh 16:33) While the designation of the "son of destruction" or "disgusting thing that causes desolation" is obviously touched on here in this case," (or otherwise a couple of the terms often utilized to point to this same "man of lawlessness" or "antichrist" phenomenon), the name the apostle John assigns to what is once again a very "harlotrous" entity found in Revelation 17 actually goes as follows:


…"Babylon the Great, the mother of the HARLOTS and the DISGUSTING THINGS of the earth." (Re 17:5)


By including the term "disgusting things" as well as even the notion of "catching sight" of this entity immediately afterwards in verse 6, our attention is being directed towards not only the symbolic spiritual language Jesus utters there at Matthew 24:15 and 16, but also by extension the account there in Daniel Chapter 11:30-32 that he refers to in this case. (Re 12:6) Once again we are brought right back to this issue of Jehovah's appointed shepherds violating his "holy covenant" with spiritual adultery and the "disgusting thing" or even figurative "daughter of Jehovah's people" that is always born from these illicit relations right inside Jehovah's very own "sanctuary." (Eze 23:1-4) (Jer 8:11) (Eze 23:1-4) The account there at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 ALONE confirms that this "holy covenant" that Jesus and John the Baptist were in the process or renewing yet again at that very moment would continue to be broken by "apostasy" on the part of Jehovah's shepherds also on future occasions.

In other words, the remaining three of the "seven kings" foretold for this period of foreign "captivity and exile" also AFTER this "fourth wild beast" would continue to violate the holy covenant that these "two witnesses" (or even "son of man") were yet again renewing and inaugurating at that very moment for the fifth of the "seven" foretold "times." (Eze 2:1) (Da 4:23, 32) This is precisely what accounts for prophesies we find in accounts like Revelation 11:3, 7, 11, 12 or Hebrews 9:26-28. Among the benefits of understanding these things is it suddenly becomes much easier to grasp the time frames being covered in accounts like the ones we are currently considering here in Revelation. My intention is to demonstrate this very thing with your next comments.

"When he asked about that beast he is told: Why is it you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of this woman and of the beast that is carrying her, which has seven heads and ten horns. The wild beast that you see, is ,and is not, and is about to ascend out of the abyss; the abyss signifying death as at Rom 10:7. But after it is raised it goes off into destruction. And those dwelling on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation, will marvel .

In the first century, this head/beast had been but was not. It no longer existed as a nation, but only as a scattered people. It ascended out of the abyss in 1947/48 when it was granted Palestine for a homeland.
John is told that the seven heads represent seven mountains where the woman sits on top. And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one is, [the Roman Empire], and one is still to come [the Anglo/American colonial two-horned beast] and when he shall have come he must remain a little while, (Rev 17:9,10). The messenger then focuses on the slaughtered head/beast of Rev 17:8, saying: And the beast that is but is not, is also itself an eighth [king] but springs from the seven and goes off into destruction.. The 'springs from the seven' refers to the UN mandate that brought the nation-state of Israel into existence. How did they manage this, since they were not part of the UN? It was at America's behest, see, Israelis Call For Rebuilding Their Temple and Returning to Animal Sacrifices - April 27, 2022."

First of all from everything I can see at least, the rendering or translation of Revelation 17:8 you are using in this case is only contributing to what I recognize personally as confusion here on your part. This is one of the most key scriptures in Revelation because it serves to establish not only exactly where the situation with God's nation at the end of the first century fits into the bigger picture here with this sequence of "seven kings," but also by extension establishes a reference point for the time frames of the "seven kings" and their corresponding "falls" that would manifest themselves both prior to this time (the end of the first century in this case) as well as afterwards. All the more reason therefore to make sure we are dealing with an accurate translation of this scripture.

"The wild beast that you see, is , and is not,"

Since the Greek word here immediately after the word –"see" (evidently more accurately translated as –saw rather than –see) is apparently –itan, and itan literally means-- WAS or even --IT was, the manner in which this verse is rendered in basically EVERY English translation other than the one you chose here seems to make much more sense. This would be very much like the following:


"The wild beast that you saw, it was, but now is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss." (Re 17:8)


Now since at the time that the Apostle John was writing Revelation "five" of these "kings" had already experienced the "fall" being spoken of here, would this information alone not already begin presenting difficulties with some of your assertions here? For example:

And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one is, [the Roman Empire], and one is still to come [the Anglo/American colonial two-horned beast] and when he shall have come he must remain a little while, (Rev 17:9,10).

Since the prophet Daniel explicitly identified the Babylonian world power as the first in this sequence of what would ultimately prove to be "eighth kings" that would exist as world powers prior to the Millennial Reign, and Medo-Persia and Greece obviously followed this first of the "seven kings," would Rome not qualify as the FOURTH world power in this foretold sequence? (Da 2:36-38) Admittedly the scriptures are indicating that ALL of the world powers from the fourth in this sequence to the time of the Millennial Reign would ultimately prove simply as new manifestations of this same "fourth wild beast." Nevertheless do you not already see a problem with asserting that "the Roman Empire" would qualify as the sixth in this sequence with the "Anglo-American" one as the seventh, and particularly since (right in this same verse) even the "FIFTH king" was described as having already experienced this "fall" by the end of the first century?

First of all this line of reasoning is completely overlooking that the British world power both came and went on the earthly scene before the Anglo-American one ever existed. But are you not actually endeavoring to skip over even TWO entire world powers here in this foretold sequence of kings? Perhaps we can begin getting to the bottom of this by considering the following question:

If you are to assert that at the time John was writing Revelation the "Roman World Power" qualified as the "king" identified with the words—"one is" there at Revelation 17:10, then just exactly how would you go about identifying the "fourth" and "fifth" of these "kings" who had already experienced both a rise and "fall" by this time? With that said, since the fact is that Rome actually DID exist as a world power at the time that John penned these words, have we not just now irrefutably confirmed that the "fall" being addressed here in connection with Babylon the Great is NOT a literal one, but rather the figurative or spiritual one defined for us in accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8? Have we not just conclusively established that the "fall" we are dealing with here is the one that always transforms what initially qualifies as a kind of "faithful town" into a great spiritual "prostitute"? (Isa 1:21) (1 Cor 6:15) (Re 17:10 18:2)

The fact is the moment we begin to incorporate things like this into the equation; there are MANY scriptures that suddenly begin to make perfect sense rather than remaining confusing and mysterious to us. These would include ones like Philippians 4:22 and 1 John 2:18. The reason there were "holy ones" right amongst the "household of Caesar" around the year 60 CE is the same reason such ones would ALWAYS serve as world rulers in this period of time identified also as the "appointed times of the nations" or "seven times." (Lu 21:24) (Da 4:23, 32) Just a few decades prior to this, two genuine prophets or "witnesses" of Jehovah had once again appeared on the earth to renew and inaugurate yet another holy kingdom or marriage covenant with a "few" people who were prepared to demonstrate genuine repentance for the PREVIOUS covenant that had yet again been violated with spiritual adultery. (Joh 19:15) (Re 11:3) (Mr 7:7) (Lu 22:28, 29) (He 9:16-18, 26-28) (Mt 3:1, 2 4:17 22:14)

The entire history of Jehovah's nation reveals that there is ALWAYS a rise of a new world power connected with these renewed holy covenants, and even if this new world power is assigned the very same name as the one that preceded it. Aside from taking the lead in restoring true worship to the earth, the first thing these new kings begin to do is render Jehovah's adverse judgments against the former world power and the false form of worship they are still engaged in. This is precisely the reason that the first century historian by the name of Flavius Josephus pointed out that it was an entirely new manifestation of Rome that appeared at Jerusalem in the year 70 CE to finish doing exactly that with all that now remained of the "fourth wild beast." At this point in time it was only a false or apostate form of Judaism that remained. However what a careful and cross referenced analysis of scriptures like 1 John 2:18 and Revelation 17:10 will reveal is that by only two or three decades later the holy kingdom covenant had been violated yet again on the part of Jehovah's newly appointed shepherds. So what the Apostle John is actually doing here in 1 John 2:18 is confirming the very same spiritual "fall" that he had ALREADY attested to in Revelation 17:10. Really then the only question at this point would be with regard to the king John identifies as "ONE IS" in this setting of 96 or so CE? As is always the case, coming to an accurate understanding of this involves heeding the counsel found in accounts like Romans 12:1, Isaiah 8:20 and Ephesians 6:18. Compare (Acts 17:11) (Mt 7:7, 8)

By all means let's endeavor to pick up the discussion with this question beginning with my next post.

Agape love;
Sol

[coccus ilicis]

Continued from above:

Post 116

Continuing from post 115 above.
A little more needs to be said about the use of 'North' and 'South' and the 'horn' of beasts' in the book of Daniel,

What comes to mind when one hears North or South, is a map with a compass pointing north and south. Not so for people living in the 7th century BC. They didn't use maps.
Here is a picture of the earliest world map:


The Hebrew word for north is 6828. tsaphon which comes from 6845. tsaphan -to hide, As a babe, Moses was hidden in an ark, Ex 2:2. North is also referred to as the meeting place of Gods, (Isa 14:13).

South is the negeb, from an unused root meaning to be parched. in the book of Job the icy cold of winter is in juxtaposition with summer in the south, compare Job 37:9,10, to Job 37:17,18. Therefore north and south in Daniel chapter 11 refers to kings being in opposition to one another, just as summer and winter are opposite extremes.

East and West are where the sun rises and sets. The Heb. word for 'west,' as at Dan 8:4, is the sea, the Mediterranean or Red Sea, as at Hos 11:10.

One Heb. word rendered East in English is 6924. qedem which comes from the root 6923. qadam - to come or be in front as at Gen 2:8. The other Heb word is 4217. mizrach - place of sunrise, as at Dan 11:44.

Bibles have not been consistent in rendering it rising of the sun as at Isa 41:25 and Dan 11:44; see snip below:


So at Gen 2:8, east is 'in front of.' And at Isa 41:25 and Dan 11:44 it is the 'rising of the sun,' which is self-explanatory.

A beast uses its horns to fight, e.g Dan 8:3, 5,6. The horns of the political entities of Daniel and Revelation i.e. Dan 7:7,8 & Rev 13:1,11;17:3 refer to the armies they have at their disposal. Standing full-time armies first came on the stage at Sparta
The Spartan army stood at the centre of the Spartan state; citizens trained in the disciplines and honor of a warrior society ...From c. 750 BC, Sparta embarked on a steady expansion, first by subduing Amyclae and the other Laconian settlements. Later, during the First Messenian War, they conquered the fertile country of Messenia. By the beginning of the 7th century BC, Sparta was, along with Argos, the Peloponnese's dominant power Wikipedia.

It looks more complicated than it is or needs to be. All one has to do is go back in time and see the events through the eyes of a bystander and understand what they understood at that time.

post 117

CI wrote:

We know from Dan 7:1-8,17,23,14 that the beast of Rev 13:1,2 is made up of body parts of these beasts.

I would assume you mean to say specifically the "fourth wild beast" (and specifically its "horns") since it not only is the last of the four in this sequence found there at Daniel Chapter 7, but also is the only one foretold to continue producing newly emerging "horns" all the way to …"the time of the end"… according to verse 17 of Daniel Chapter 7. (Da 7:17)

Each head is a beast in its own right.

I see every reason to recognize this statement as accurate and scriptural, with accounts like Daniel 2:36-45 and Revelation 17:10 serving as confirmation of this.

While Daniel Chapter 2 AND 7 make it clear that all the world powers that would emerge between the time of the "fourth wild beast" and the "time of the end" would ultimately prove to be new manifestations of this same "fourth wild beast," (The Roman world power), Revelation 17:10, Daniel 7:8 and even many other scriptures like Jeremiah 15:9 begin directing our attention towards the specific NUMBER of world powers that would follow this "fourth wild beast" prior to the Millennial Reign. When we now factor in verse 11 of Revelation 17 into the equation and compare it with verse 8 of Daniel Chapter seven, we find confirmation that there would ultimately be four world powers that would appear on the earth after the emergence of this "fourth wild beast," or otherwise a total of "eight kings." The reason the scriptures (on the whole at least) are much more focused on the initial seven however is because they fall into the time period identified as "the appointed times of the nations." (Lu 21:24) (Da 4:23, 32) This is the time frame that is distinguished as when God's people would continue finding themselves in a situation of foreign "exile" and "captivity." (Jer 1:3)

In other words, unlike the initial seven, this "eighth king" would never enter into a covenant relationship with Jehovah, or otherwise never come to include kings that would qualify as "anointed shepherds" of Jehovah's people until the moment they violate his "holy covenant" and consequently suffer being destroyed and replaced eventually with a new world power. (Isa 44:28 45:1) (Da 11:30-32) Therefore since this mere "IMAGE of the wild beast" (like a kind of mere hollow reflection of it that nonetheless receives false worship also as an IDOLATROUS image?) never actually experiences a spiritual BIRTH, it by extension is never in a position to experience a spiritual DEATH. (Re 13:12) It is only ever in a position to experience a LITERAL death or destruction, thus it is set apart or distinguished from the "seven" foretold "births of the (figurative) "barren woman" that would unfold beginning with the year of "exile" that Jeremiah identifies in the opening words of his book. (609 BCE or otherwise the year "King Jehoiakim" began his reign) (Jer 1:3 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5) (Isa 54:1-4)

The account there at Daniel 7:12 helps us to understand that this final "8th king" is distinct also in the sense that it loses even the authority that was granted satan in the Garden of Eden when our fore-bearers chose him as their god or father over Jehovah. (Lu 4:5-7) But what is important to understand here is that this authority granted to satan (this "authority" of the "dragon" mentioned in accounts like Revelation 13:2) is NEVER utilized by these initial "seven kings" until they violate the holy kingdom covenant with spiritual "harlotry." (Isa 1:21) This is the moment when the substitution or exchange of power and authority mentioned in accounts like Daniel 11:31 or 2 Thessalonians 2:4 takes place in Jehovah's "sanctuary" or earthly "temple." (1 Cor 3:16, 17 6:15) Another way of wording this would be to say that with this tragic turn of events, the very positive things in connection with these "seven kings" or "beasts" covered in passages like the symbolic language of Daniel 4:20-22 and 7:4 now unfold in reverse order, and this is the case with ALL of these "seven kings" or world powers. The moment we come to grasp very key points such as this, we suddenly find ourselves in a position to begin genuinely comprehending what is being conveyed in scriptural statements like the following:


"The wild beast that you saw WAS, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction." (Re 17:8a)

"And there are seven kings, five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived,…" (Re 17:10)


We want to bear information like this in mind since as I will shortly demonstrate, it will soon prove very useful in actually understanding some of the issues you soon bring up here in your comments.

The 10 horns and crowns symbolize individual ruling entities. The number ten is symbolic but serves prophetic purposes for identifying the 8th king/beast which is the final one,

This is where you begin to lose me. What is it exactly about the scriptures you cite here that you could recognize as even beginning to support your claims in this case? For one thing there are at least three different "wild beasts" found in the scriptures in very different time frames that are pictured with these same "ten horns." (Da 7:7) (Re 13:1 17:3) Would this alone not already begin to present problems with the notion of them serving specifically or exclusively (as you say) "to prophetically identify the 8th king/beast which is the final one…"

see Dan 7:7,8,11,12,13,14. Rev 13:1,2 is what the conglomerate beast looked like in 1948.

The question I would pose to you here is—why exactly would you mention the year 1948 in connection with all this? Yes I realize that this year figures in prominently when it comes to "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine;" but can you direct our attention to any SCRIPTURES that would point to this year for any reason at all? (Mt 15:9) (Isa 8:20)

Revelation then homes in on one of the heads/beasts ... and I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth marvels at the beast. This slaughtered healed head/beast is identified in Revelation chapter 17, where John sees Babylon the Great, riding a beast that was very similar to the Rev 13:1,2 beast, but it is a description of how it looked late in the first century.

As I continue to demonstrate with the scriptures, we have all been heavily conditioned to overlook a very significant distinction between "Babylon the Great" and the "Great Harlot," and this continues to cause an incredible amount of confusion just as it is intended to. Babylon the Great obviously does not qualify as a "Great Harlot" when it is being ruled over by ones like the prophet Daniel and his three Hebrew companions, or "anointed shepherds" like "King Cyrus" of the Medo-Persian Empire along with Jews like Queen Esther and her uncle Mordecai. (Da 2:47-49) (Isa 44:28, 45:1) The "Great Harlot" clearly does not involve "holy ones" right among the "household of Caesar" who are all too eager to send their love and "greetings" to Christian congregations such as the Philippian one around the year of 60 CE. (Php 4:22) Just as indicated by scriptures like Revelation 17:10 or 18:2, it is only when these divinely appointed world powers experience the spiritual "fall" that is defined for us in accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 or 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 that they suddenly qualify as a kind of "Great Harlot" or even "disgusting thing." Compare (1 Joh 2:18) (Isa 1:21) (La 1:1, 4)

In other words, John does not actually (as you say) "see Babylon the Great riding a beast…" but rather a version of it that has resulted from yet another spiritual "fall." This broken holy marriage covenant always assigns a new identity to Babylon the Great which on this occasion is represented with a MUCH LONGER NAME. (Re 17:5) The spiritual adultery involved in violating the holy marriage covenant now qualifies this entity more specifically as precisely what John states in verse 5 of Revelation 17. As opposed to simply "Babylon the Great" which Jehovah actually becomes ANGRY for other ones taking credit for, (Da 4:29-32), we suddenly find a rather different name being assigned to this final foretold "wild beast" pictured there in Revelation 17. Moreover we can be certain it is no coincidence that this turn of events is represented as unfolding immediately after yet another "conquering" or spiritual death of Jehovah's "holy ones" is mentioned at Revelation 13:7. Let's not forget that if anything a LITERAL "killing" of Jehovah's "faithful stewards" or "two witnesses" always constitutes a "conquering" of Jehovah's ENEMIES! (Joh 16:33) While the designation of the "son of destruction" or "disgusting thing that causes desolation" is obviously touched on here in this case," (or otherwise a couple of the terms often utilized to point to this same "man of lawlessness" or "antichrist" phenomenon), the name the apostle John assigns to what is once again a very "harlotrous" entity found in Revelation 17 actually goes as follows:


…"Babylon the Great, the mother of the HARLOTS and the DISGUSTING THINGS of the earth." (Re 17:5)


By including the term "disgusting things" as well as even the notion of "catching sight" of this entity immediately afterwards in verse 6, our attention is being directed towards not only the symbolic spiritual language Jesus utters there at Matthew 24:15 and 16, but also by extension the account there in Daniel Chapter 11:30-32 that he refers to in this case. (Re 12:6) Once again we are brought right back to this issue of Jehovah's appointed shepherds violating his "holy covenant" with spiritual adultery and the "disgusting thing" or even figurative "daughter of Jehovah's people" that is always born from these illicit relations right inside Jehovah's very own "sanctuary." (Eze 23:1-4) (Jer 8:11) (Eze 23:1-4) The account there at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 ALONE confirms that this "holy covenant" that Jesus and John the Baptist were in the process or renewing yet again at that very moment would continue to be broken by "apostasy" on the part of Jehovah's shepherds also on future occasions.

In other words, the remaining three of the "seven kings" foretold for this period of foreign "captivity and exile" also AFTER this "fourth wild beast" would continue to violate the holy covenant that these "two witnesses" (or even "son of man") were yet again renewing and inaugurating at that very moment for the fifth of the "seven" foretold "times." (Eze 2:1) (Da 4:23, 32) This is precisely what accounts for prophesies we find in accounts like Revelation 11:3, 7, 11, 12 or Hebrews 9:26-28. Among the benefits of understanding these things is it suddenly becomes much easier to grasp the time frames being covered in accounts like the ones we are currently considering here in Revelation. My intention is to demonstrate this very thing with your next comments.

"When he asked about that beast he is told: Why is it you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of this woman and of the beast that is carrying her, which has seven heads and ten horns. The wild beast that you see, is ,and is not, and is about to ascend out of the abyss; the abyss signifying death as at Rom 10:7. But after it is raised it goes off into destruction. And those dwelling on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation, will marvel .

In the first century, this head/beast had been but was not. It no longer existed as a nation, but only as a scattered people. It ascended out of the abyss in 1947/48 when it was granted Palestine for a homeland.
John is told that the seven heads represent seven mountains where the woman sits on top. And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one is, [the Roman Empire], and one is still to come [the Anglo/American colonial two-horned beast] and when he shall have come he must remain a little while, (Rev 17:9,10). The messenger then focuses on the slaughtered head/beast of Rev 17:8, saying: And the beast that is but is not, is also itself an eighth [king] but springs from the seven and goes off into destruction.. The 'springs from the seven' refers to the UN mandate that brought the nation-state of Israel into existence. How did they manage this, since they were not part of the UN? It was at America's behest, see, Israelis Call For Rebuilding Their Temple and Returning to Animal Sacrifices - April 27, 2022."

First of all from everything I can see at least, the rendering or translation of Revelation 17:8 you are using in this case is only contributing to what I recognize personally as confusion here on your part. This is one of the most key scriptures in Revelation because it serves to establish not only exactly where the situation with God's nation at the end of the first century fits into the bigger picture here with this sequence of "seven kings," but also by extension establishes a reference point for the time frames of the "seven kings" and their corresponding "falls" that would manifest themselves both prior to this time (the end of the first century in this case) as well as afterwards. All the more reason therefore to make sure we are dealing with an accurate translation of this scripture.

"The wild beast that you see, is , and is not,"

Since the Greek word here immediately after the word –"see" (evidently more accurately translated as –saw rather than –see) is apparently –itan, and itan literally means-- WAS or even --IT was, the manner in which this verse is rendered in basically EVERY English translation other than the one you chose here seems to make much more sense. This would be very much like the following:


"The wild beast that you saw, it was, but now is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss." (Re 17:8)


Now since at the time that the Apostle John was writing Revelation "five" of these "kings" had already experienced the "fall" being spoken of here, would this information alone not already begin presenting difficulties with some of your assertions here? For example:

And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one is, [the Roman Empire], and one is still to come [the Anglo/American colonial two-horned beast] and when he shall have come he must remain a little while, (Rev 17:9,10).

Since the prophet Daniel explicitly identified the Babylonian world power as the first in this sequence of what would ultimately prove to be "eighth kings" that would exist as world powers prior to the Millennial Reign, and Medo-Persia and Greece obviously followed this first of the "seven kings," would Rome not qualify as the FOURTH world power in this foretold sequence? (Da 2:36-38) Admittedly the scriptures are indicating that ALL of the world powers from the fourth in this sequence to the time of the Millennial Reign would ultimately prove simply as new manifestations of this same "fourth wild beast." Nevertheless do you not already see a problem with asserting that "the Roman Empire" would qualify as the sixth in this sequence with the "Anglo-American" one as the seventh, and particularly since (right in this same verse) even the "FIFTH king" was described as having already experienced this "fall" by the end of the first century?

First of all this line of reasoning is completely overlooking that the British world power both came and went on the earthly scene before the Anglo-American one ever existed. But are you not actually endeavoring to skip over even TWO entire world powers here in this foretold sequence of kings? Perhaps we can begin getting to the bottom of this by considering the following question:

If you are to assert that at the time John was writing Revelation the "Roman World Power" qualified as the "king" identified with the words—"one is" there at Revelation 17:10, then just exactly how would you go about identifying the "fourth" and "fifth" of these "kings" who had already experienced both a rise and "fall" by this time? With that said, since the fact is that Rome actually DID exist as a world power at the time that John penned these words, have we not just now irrefutably confirmed that the "fall" being addressed here in connection with Babylon the Great is NOT a literal one, but rather the figurative or spiritual one defined for us in accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8? Have we not just conclusively established that the "fall" we are dealing with here is the one that always transforms what initially qualifies as a kind of "faithful town" into a great spiritual "prostitute"? (Isa 1:21) (1 Cor 6:15) (Re 17:10 18:2)

The fact is the moment we begin to incorporate things like this into the equation; there are MANY scriptures that suddenly begin to make perfect sense rather than remaining confusing and mysterious to us. These would include ones like Philippians 4:22 and 1 John 2:18. The reason there were "holy ones" right amongst the "household of Caesar" around the year 60 CE is the same reason such ones would ALWAYS serve as world rulers in this period of time identified also as the "appointed times of the nations" or "seven times." (Lu 21:24) (Da 4:23, 32) Just a few decades prior to this, two genuine prophets or "witnesses" of Jehovah had once again appeared on the earth to renew and inaugurate yet another holy kingdom or marriage covenant with a "few" people who were prepared to demonstrate genuine repentance for the PREVIOUS covenant that had yet again been violated with spiritual adultery. (Joh 19:15) (Re 11:3) (Mr 7:7) (Lu 22:28, 29) (He 9:16-18, 26-28) (Mt 3:1, 2 4:17 22:14)

The entire history of Jehovah's nation reveals that there is ALWAYS a rise of a new world power connected with these renewed holy covenants, and even if this new world power is assigned the very same name as the one that preceded it. Aside from taking the lead in restoring true worship to the earth, the first thing these new kings begin to do is render Jehovah's adverse judgments against the former world power and the false form of worship they are still engaged in. This is precisely the reason that the first century historian by the name of Flavius Josephus pointed out that it was an entirely new manifestation of Rome that appeared at Jerusalem in the year 70 CE to finish doing exactly that with all that now remained of the "fourth wild beast." At this point in time it was only a false or apostate form of Judaism that remained. However what a careful and cross referenced analysis of scriptures like 1 John 2:18 and Revelation 17:10 will reveal is that by only two or three decades later the holy kingdom covenant had been violated yet again on the part of Jehovah's newly appointed shepherds. So what the Apostle John is actually doing here in 1 John 2:18 is confirming the very same spiritual "fall" that he had ALREADY attested to in Revelation 17:10. Really then the only question at this point would be with regard to the king John identifies as "ONE IS" in this setting of 96 or so CE? As is always the case, coming to an accurate understanding of this involves heeding the counsel found in accounts like Romans 12:1, Isaiah 8:20 and Ephesians 6:18. Compare (Acts 17:11) (Mt 7:7, 8)

By all means let's endeavor to pick up the discussion with this question beginning with my next post.

Agape love;
Sol

[coccus ilicis]

Continued from above:

Post 118

CI wrote:

We know from Dan 7:1-8,17,23,14 that the beast of Rev 13:1,2 is made up of body parts of these beasts.

I would assume you mean to say specifically the "fourth wild beast" (and specifically its "horns") since it not only is the last of the four in this sequence found there at Daniel Chapter 7, but also is the only one foretold to continue producing newly emerging "horns" all the way to …"the time of the end"… according to verse 17 of Daniel Chapter 7. (Da 7:17)

Each head is a beast in its own right.

I see every reason to recognize this statement as accurate and scriptural, with accounts like Daniel 2:36-45 and Revelation 17:10 serving as confirmation of this.

While Daniel Chapters 2 AND 7 make it clear that all the world powers that would emerge between the time of the "fourth wild beast" and the "time of the end" would ultimately prove to be new manifestations of this same "fourth wild beast," (The Roman world power),
Agape love;
Sol

Hello Sol

As I have already discussed this with Bobcat I really do not want to go over all this again. The time left is reduced and is too precious to keep going over the same material. As I said in post 116 above:

It looks more complicated than it is or needs to be. All one has to do is go back in time and see the events through the eyes of a bystander and understand what they understood at that time

Daniel received the vision of Dan 7:4-14 in the first year of Belshazzar the last king of Babylon, (Dan 7:1). In explanation of Dan 7:17-27, the angelic personage says: ... "As for these huge beasts, because there are four, there are four kings that will stand up. Will is the operative word here, they stand up after Babylon has fallen.

That means the first beast, Dan 7:4 must be Persia. The next one is Greece, Dan 7:5. The third one, (Dan 7:6), is Rome, which corresponds to the iron legs of Dan 2:40. Rome isn't overthrown but becomes intermingled with moist clay in the feet and toes, Dan 2:41-44. This is the fourth beast of Dan 7:7,19. Note, it says that this beast proved to be different from all the others and that it had claws of copper, [Greece], and teeth of iron, [Rome]. The 4th beast of Dan 7 is a description of emerging democracy as it was during the Reformation. For details of this period see Post #208, here. Benjamin Friedman's 1961 speech has been removed, but can still be listened to here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVlZLDEkqxs. Also see videos about this period in Post #194, #195 & #196, here. The Rev 13:1,2,3 beast describes what this nascent democratic beast looks like after 1948, with the slaughtered healed head included amongst the heads,/beasts.

The beast the harlot rides as at Rev 17:3-8 is what it looked like late in the first century at the time when John saw this vision. Although he would not have understood what the beasts of Revelation chapter 13 were about, he did know that in the first century the beast that was and is not and was about to ascend out of the abyss must refer to the nation-state of Israel. Which at that time was no longer a nation, but a people of the diaspora.

The push to bring Israel out of the abyss began during the reformation. It started as a little insignificant horn that displaced three of the 10 horns of Dan 7:8 making it the 8th horn that corresponds to Rev 17:11. For more detail of what happened at that time, read the book the Nameless War. The book in pdf format can be downloaded free here,The Nameless War by Archibald Ramsay. It is a must-read for anyone that wants to understand today's world. Ramsay, a politician, was jailed during WW2 for publishing the book. He doesn't refer to the Bible but does reveal the identity of the three horns/kings that the little audacious horn displaces and humiliates. (Dan 7:8,11,24). Calculate: 10 horns minus 3 = 7 plus the little audacious horn = 8, which is the horn of Dan 7:24, and is the 8th king of Rev 17:11.

We are now at the time when the 10 kings who have not yet received a kingdom are about to receive authority to rule with this 8th beast for one hour, Rev 17:12.

Post 119

Due to the fact that I am currently entertaining guests for a few weeks, I'm afraid it will continue taking me longer than usual to catch up with replies to all your comments LRW. For the moment my intention is to pick up where I left off a few days ago on this issue of scripturally identifying the "one is" there at Revelation 17:10.

So if we are to first of all "render our sacred service with our power of reason," would it not make perfect sense to consider questions like the following in this case?

In the entire history of these "seven kings" or world powers that would hold Jehovah's people in a condition of foreign "exile" and "captivity" over the course of their existence, do we ever even once find an example of the holy kingdom covenant being renewed with a subsequent world power IMMEDIATELY after the former one has "led" their fellow "anointed shepherds" into "apostasy" by means of "smooth words"? (Da 11:30-32) (Isa 44:28 45:1) Absolutely not! What is more, there are at least two or three things we want to take into consideration here which not only will confirm this, but also serve to identify this- "one is" here at Revelation 17:10.

When it comes to the fifth foretold "birth of the barren woman" that occurred in the early part of the first century, there were a number of things that distinguished it from the previous four. (Jer 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5) On this occasion the renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant that occurred with a ministry of the "two witnesses" or "son of man"/"prophet to the nations"/"faithful steward" etc. and its commensurate emergence of another divinely appointed world power was not distinct simply for the reason that one of these two "inspectors" of "Christ's domestics" or Jesus' "brothers" was a perfect human, or for that matter even the fact that the earth would be dealing with a SPIRITUAL manifestation of Israel (true Christianity) rather than a literal/fleshly one from this time forward. (Re 11:3) (Eze 2:1) (Jer 1:5) (Lu 19:44) (Mt 24:45 25:40) Another thing that made it unique is a phenomenon that began to be "typified" in prophetic/"symbolic dramas" that went at least as far back as with the time of ancient Jacob. (He 8:5) (Ga 4:24) The one I am referring to in this case is found at Genesis 32:6-8:


6 "In time the messengers returned to Jacob saying: "We got to your brother Esau, and he also is on his way to meet you, and 400 men with him." 7 And Jacob grew very much afraid and grew anxious. So he divided the people who were with him, and the flocks and the cattle and the camels into TWO CAMPS. 8 And he said: "If Esau should come to one camp and assault it, then there is certain to be one camp remaining to make an escape." (Ge 32:6-8)


We of course want to think in terms here of what Esau was used to typify or represent in a symbolic and prophetic sense. (Ro 15:4) (He 8:5) (Ga 4:24) While he was actually a BROTHER of Jacob, he nonetheless ultimately proved to be a kind of betrayer and an enemy of both Jacob/Israel and thus the GOD of Israel. (Ge 32:28) In other words Esau was simply another way of picturing the betrayal of the ancient Joseph by his own brothers or otherwise precisely what was represented also with Judas Iscariot in connection with Jesus. ALL of these prophetic dramas were in turn used to symbolize the betrayals or "apostasies" that are addressed in accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 or 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8. Nevertheless (getting back to the account here at Genesis 32:6-8), with the heavenly resurrections that began in 33 CE in connection with what would now be SPIRITUAL Israel, from this time forward Jehovah's holy nation would qualify as the "two camp" entity that is also referred to in the symbolic spiritual language found in accounts like Song of Songs 6:13.

"Come back, come back O Shulammite! Come back that we may behold you!
What do you people behold in the Shulammite?
"Something like the dance of TWO CAMPS." (Song 6:13)


From the time of the renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant that occurred in the early part of the first century forward, (Lu 22:28, 29) (He 9:16-18, 26-28) it would ALWAYS be a situation of "one is" with respect to divinely appointed "kings." (He 12:22) (Ga 4:26) The only question now is when exactly would the EARTHLY "camp" of Jehovah's nation be restored after it experiences one of these foretold "apostasies," which in turn are identified (once again) as spiritually adulterous violations of this same holy marriage covenant? (Da 11:32) (2 Th 2:3) In the case of this 6th foretold "king" of Revelation 17:10 or what is also referred to in the scriptures with terms such as the sixth baptism of a kind of "leprous" foreign "chieftain" or (once again) the 6th "birth of the barren woman," the answer is actually found in the prophesies of the ancient Daniel. (2 Ki 5:1, 10, 14) (Jer 15:9)


13 And I got to hear a certain holy one speaking, and another holy one proceeded to say to the particular one who was speaking: "How long will the vision of the continual sacrifice and of the transgression causing desolation to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?" 14 So he said to me: "Until two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings, and the holy place will certainly be brought back to its right condition."(Da 8:13, 14)


We will eventually come to discover that if or when we simply choose to accept the starting point that the prophet Jeremiah designated for this foretold period of foreign "exile and captivity" along with its commensurate "day for a year" calculating formula that MANY things we currently find confusing and mysterious will suddenly make perfect sense. (Jer 1:3) (Da 4:23, 32) (Lu 21:24) (Nu 14:34) (Eze 4:6) Rest assured it is no coincidence that when we calculate 2,300 years from the starting point of 609 CE, (the year that "King Jehoiakim" began his reign) we end up precisely at the time when the nation of England began to establish itself as "Great Britain" or otherwise the world power that followed the second foretold manifestation of Rome. (The 6th of these "seven kings") (Re 17:10) This is no more a coincidence than the fact that the ministry and subsequent priestly atonement of the "two witnesses" we read about in Revelation 11 is represented as coinciding with the "6th trumpet blast." (Re 9:12 11:3, 7, 11, 12)

"In the first century, this head/beast had been but was not.

Clearly this statement would be true at least at the very END of the first century since this was precisely the setting it was written in there at Revelation 17:8. And in order for it to even be possible for the "antichrist" or "disgusting thing"/"son of destruction" to appear on the earth at this time, (just as it was officially announced by John as doing so at this same time), it would of course first need to be absent. (1 Joh 2:18) (2 Th 2:1-8) Since it in turn is always made absent by means of a ministry of genuine prophets of Jehovah who renew another holy kingdom covenant with a ministry to Jesus' anointed "brothers" that ends with an act of priestly blood atonement, this would mean that the situation being described here in Revelation 17:8 was also true at the very BEGINNING of the first century. With the ministry and priestly atonement that was furnished for repentant mankind by John the Baptist and Jesus in 33 CE, the earth would experience the FIFTH of these "seven" foretold "kings" or "beasts" rising out of the "abyss." (The second foretold manifestation of Rome in this case that would position "holy ones" right amongst the very "household of Caesar") (Re 17:8) (Php 4:22) However now (in a setting 65 or so years later) that what the Apostle Paul had been warning his fellow Christians about as early as 50 or so CE had fully transpired, the situation was once again just as it is once again being described by John here both at Revelation 17:8, 10 and 1 John 2:18.

Is it beginning to appear as if what is being described here at Revelation 17:8 is actually part of a foretold cycle or "circuit" of events that would ultimately be repeated "seven times" up until the promised Millennial Reign? (Mt 10:23) (Da 4:23, 32) (Jos 5:3-5) However perhaps the main thing this factual information might prompt you to ponder or even reconsider my dear sister is one of your earlier assertions:

The 10 horns and crowns symbolize individual ruling entities. The number ten is symbolic but serves prophetic purposes for identifying the 8th king/beast which is the final one,

Particularly since these "ten horns" or more importantly what they are being used to symbolize are actually pictured a NUMBER of "times" in connection with these "wild beasts" or foreign "kings" the scriptures often speak of, might it stand to reason that they actually factor in at some point really with ALL of these "seven kings"? (Ro 12:1) (Re 17:10) I will continue to demonstrate with the scriptures precisely what is being symbolized by these "ten horns" also on this thread. Moreover I can assure everyone that if or when we come to actually accept what the scriptures have to share on this, they will begin to appreciate that these "ten horns" do indeed play a role with ALL of these foretold world powers we are considering here, just as is the case with what is represented also with the "TWO horns" on the "wild beast" of Revelation 13:11.

It no longer existed as a nation, but only as a scattered people. It ascended out of the abyss in 1947/48 when it was granted Palestine for a homeland."

Is it not already beginning to be apparent how the scriptures pose some serious problems for what I would refer to as the current mainstream narrative here? (Mt 7:13, 14) (Joh 15:18, 19) Beginning with my next post, please allow me to lovingly and respectfully demonstrate a NUMBER of irreconcilable difficulties that the scriptures present for this understanding.

Agape love;
Sol

[coccus ilicis]

Continued from above:

Post 120

Due to the fact that I am currently entertaining guests for a few weeks, I'm afraid it will continue taking me longer than usual to catch up with replies to all your comments LRW. For the moment my intention is to pick up where I left off a few days ago on this issue of scripturally identifying the "one is" there at Revelation 17:10.


Agape love;
Sol

Hello Sol,

Enjoy the visit of your friends.

Since I have already covered the beast in numerous posts in Revelation threads and you want to debate this, or as you say

to lovingly and respectfully demonstrate a NUMBER of irreconcilable difficulties that the scriptures present for this understanding
... So if we are to first of all "render our sacred service with our power of reason," would it not make perfect sense to consider questions like the following in this case?

You see it as your sacred service to convince me you are right and I am wrong. So I suggest you start a new topic on the beasts of Daniel and Revelation, and then everyone can join in and have their say. I do not see what I do here as a sacred service at all.

It is quite obvious we understand scripture from different points of view. But as the saying goes: ' the proof of the pudding is in the eating.'. In other words, before Jesus returns everything we believe is subjective, based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. And that is exactly as it should be. As one member rightly said in a reply, 'what Jesus taught brings what is in our hearts to the surface.' Jesus also said that the spirit of truth would teach us all things and bring back to our minds all the things he taught and that the world could not receive this spirit of truth, (Jhn 14:17,25,26). Having the spirit of truth does not mean that all sing in unison from the one hymn book. If that were the case then all would be able to identify the son of man's brothers, but they cannot, (Mt 25:37,38,40). Jesus's brothers do not master the new song/the song of Moses and the Lamb until they are chosen, (Rev 14:3,4; 15:3). Before that happens, the spirit of truth operates in each person individually to bring truths about themselves to the surface, and each time one removes a splinter of the rafter in one's eye one sees a little more clearly - it is an ongoing process, (Mt 7:3,4,5).

Receiving the spirit of truth does not mean that it is their sacred duty to convince others. That's the WT way. Jesus said concerning those that sing the new song, that they did not defile themselves with women i.e. gather a harem of followers, (Rev 14:4). The time for doing that is past. We are now in the tail end when the kings of the north and the rising of the sun are in opposition to the G7 unipolar world. And a new G8 multipolar world is in the making. The harlot has seen the writing on the wall, and my guess is that she will form a partnership with them, see (Rev 17:12,13,15,16,17).

Post 121

LRW wrote:

It no longer existed as a nation, but only as a scattered people. It ascended out of the abyss in 1947/48 when it was granted Palestine for a homeland."

First of all, while the Holy writings do not point to the specific year of the RISE of the "seventh king" here in Revelation 17:10 or otherwise the final "birth" foretold for the world power that would exist in the time frame identified distinguished as that of foreign "exile and captivity" for Jehovah's people, they DO actually identify the year of its spiritual demise. (Jer 15:9) (Lu 21:24) Even aside from the fact that an unusually long span of time was not foretold for the preceding spiritual death in this case as well as the issue of it being rather self–evident when a kingdom becomes a world power, it should be rather apparent that the final foretold spiritual "FALL" of "Babylon the Great" would be the paramount issue at this point. (Da 8:13, 14) (Re 6:9, 10) This is because it is now all about pinpointing THE END of these "gentile times." With this in mind, let's not forget the sequence of spiritual deaths and rebirths associated with these "seven times" was always represented as a cycle or "circuit" of events, and a cycle of course ALWAYS ends in the precisely the manner that it begins. In other words, on this basis ALONE the end of these "gentile times" COULD ONLY be associated with a spiritual death. The prophet Jeremiah made it perfectly clear that this all BEGAN with exactly that. (Jer 1:3) Compare (2 Ki 23:34-47)

Once again the end of this "appointed times of the nations" was always marked not only with a complete forfeiture of DIVINE authority and power in connection with foreign earthly kingdoms, but also very quickly even the authority these "seven kings" would very DESPERATELY require the moment they would once again violate the holy marriage covenant with spiritual "harlotry" and thus "BECOME a dwelling place of demons"…. (Isa 1:21) (Re 18:2) (Da 11:31) (2 Th 2:4) This is namely the temporary authority granted to the "dragon" back in the Garden of Eden when our forbearers chose him over Jehovah, and it is precisely the reason this final "eighth king" is suddenly pictured with no "diadems" or crowns on its "ten horns" here at Revelation 17:3. (Da 7:12) (Lu 4:5, 6) (Compare Re 13:1, 2, 11, 12,)

Yes despite what most of us have long been led to believe by the Watchtower organization, we might notice that this number "1,260" found at Revelation 12: is explicitly associated with ALL the things that are ALWAYS commensurate with a spiritual DEATH of Jehovah's nation as opposed to one of its foretold "births" or "comings." These include "flights" to a kind of spiritual "wilderness," great "woe for the earth" and a condition in which even the ANOINTED ones are in desperate need of spiritual "feeding" and sustenance at the hands of Jehovah's true prophets! (Re 12:6, 12, 14) Compare (Mt 24:15, 16, 45 25:34-40) It is of course Jehovah's ENEMIES that do the "fleeing" when his kingdom is re-established on the earth. Moreover there would be no call whatsoever for a HEAVENLY birth of the Messianic kingdom at this point since the scriptures make it exceedingly clear that this had already occurred in or around the year of 33 CE. (Ga 4:26) (He 12:22) What we are considering there at Revelation 11:15 is simply a confirmation of the points that are repeated in accounts like Daniel 7:12 and Revelation 17:12. Even if satan and his minions continue to exercise much influence over the earth for a short while after this point in time, they no longer possess any AUTHORITY to do so. Undoubtedly this factors in quite significantly to the double portion of Jehovah's adverse judgments that are immanent for them on this final foretold occasion. (Re 18:5-8) But why exactly would these things prove rather crucial for us to understand?

Just in case we are still failing to demonstrate respect for the 2,520 year time span that the scriptures furnish us for these "gentile times" with the instructions for doubling the number "1,260" and then calculating it with this "day for a year" formula beginning with this same starting point found at Jeremiah 1:3, (Compare (Re 12:6, 14) (Nu 14:34) (Eze 4:6)), here are a few things to prayerfully ponder:

Particularly in view of the unusually short life span foretold for this seventh "king" or world power identified in places like Revelation 17:10 before it would experience a spiritual "fall," along with the fact that the Anglo-American world power is recognized by historians as coming into its own at the very end of the 1800s, should the year of 1912 that this number "1,260" points to not make perfect sense? (Re 12:6 17:10) What is more, as if to confirm the truth of this prophecy even further, historians acknowledge that this empire began to experience a decline on really every level right at this very year. But the fact is there are even more confirmations to consider here if we are truly paying close attention to the holy writings.

Only just eight or so years after 1912 this seventh world power openly announced to the entire world that it had in effect done precisely what had been foretold for it all along there at Revelation 13:7 after it would "wage war on the holy ones and conquer them." The Anglo-American world power seemed to actually TAKE PRIDE in the fact that it had taken it upon itself to hand over the reigns of power and authority Jehovah had granted it to a kind of idolatrous "IMAGE of the wild beast" or "EIGHTH king!" (Re 13:14, 15 17:11) We can discern from scriptural prophecy that we now refer to as the United Nations actually experienced its birth sometime in 1912 as the "League of Nations," and even if the existence of this demonic entity was not announced or officially introduced to the world until a few years later. Yes in much the same manner in which the ancient King Jehoiakim handed over his God given authority and power to Pharaoh Necho of Egypt, the Anglo American world power did the same with the League of Nations. Now since this "sin of the priest" or broken holy covenant ALWAYS results in the "removal" of the "continual sacrifice" and its commensurate atoning value from what now WAS Jehovah's earthly "sanctuary" or "temple" and thus brings "guiltiness" right back to what now WERE Jehovah's people, should the words we find in verse 8 of Revelation 13 really come as any surprise to us? (Re 13:7, 8) (Le 4:3) (Da 11:30-32)

Yes regardless of how heavily or effectively we have been indoctrinated over the years to understand things differently, the scriptures as always not only speak for themselves, but also hold true nonetheless. The extremely alarming information the scriptures furnish us here at Revelation 13:7, 8 in connection with the spiritual "fall" of this 7th king should in reality come as no more a surprise to us as the final foretold priestly act of atonement we read of in the very next chapter. (Re 14:15, 16) (Mt 5:18) The reason we read of yet another and much more extensive harvest or "reaping" of the earth immediately thereafter in verses 17-20 is because there is ALWAYS a GENERAL harvest after blood atonement has been furnished for mankind with a "harvest" or resurrection of the "FIRSTfruits." (Re 14:17-20) (1Cor 15:23) Compare (Re 14:4 20:6) Moreover what actually qualifies as a figurative or spiritual rebirth even in connection with this secondary group or "other sheep" (a religious conversion of repentant ones after another "birth" or "coming" of Jehovah's nation) ALWAYS coincides with an outright annihilation of Jehovah's enemies or what is also referred to with terms such as a "bowl of the anger of God" or "a conclusion of a system of things." (Joh 10:16) (Lu 12:32) (Re 7:9, 14 16:1) (Mt 13:39) [NWT or otherwise refer to the koine Greek writings for Matthew 13:39]

Once again this is an ongoing CYCLE or "circuit"/"wheelwork" of events we are ultimately considering here. (Mt 10:23) (Jos 6:3-5) (Eze 10:13) Among the things we would all do very well to take note of however in connection with this final foretold ministry in which even Jehovah's true prophets would qualify as nothing more than repentant spiritual prostitutes (Mt 24:28) (Re 12:14) (Le 11:13) until blood atonement is furnished is the following:

Even if this final foretold abomination we now refer to as the United Nations would qualify as a kind of "eighth king," the scriptures nonetheless make it clear it would manifest itself in the time of the "seventh trumpet blast" or what the Apostle Paul referred to as the "LAST trumpet." (1 Cor 15:51-53) With this in mind, did we happen to notice the kind of theocratic ministers that Paul foretold to be produced here in 1st Corinthians by this final foretold resurrection or "reaping"/"harvest of the firstfruits"? namely the one that the Apostle John identified as eventually following the spiritual death of the seventh world power? (Re 14:15, 16)

Yes it is as if Paul here is actually repeating verbatim precisely what the prophet Daniel had long before foretold for the "time of the end." (Da 12:3) Is it not exceedingly clear that basically EVERYTHING we read there in Revelation in connection with what the Apostle Paul referred to as the final foretold "self sacrifice" of these men who are "reserved" to "die once for all time" to "bear the sins of the many" is now pertaining specifically to what would now be the Millennial Reign? (He 9:26-28) So particularly with this in mind, let's by all means consider the following questions:

Is this unimaginably glorious ministry on the part "incorruptible and immortal" representatives of Jehovah what the earth experienced with the so called birth or re-establishment of the "State of Israel" in 1948? Does it not seem incredibly absurd to even actually CONSIDER a question like this? The fact is however that this is only the beginning of the problems the scriptures pose for such a notion.

Beginning with my next post, let's by all means address some remaining difficulties the scriptures present for such a notion.

Agape love;
Sol

As I said at the beginning of this topic:

I know how difficult it is to stop, once one gets the bit between one's teeth

So here is the paddock where one can let go and gallop heedlessly, expressing oneself fully. But I think it would make more sense to the readers if one kept one's replies short and to the point, jumping one hurdle at a time.



But by all means, if you want to run free concerning the beasts of Daniel and Revelation, this is the paddock to do it in.

[coccus ilicis]

Continued from above:

post 116

Continuing from post 115 above.
Agape love;
Sol

Hello Sol,

To answer your question:

This is where you begin to lose me. What is it exactly about the scriptures you cite here that you could recognize as even beginning to support your claims in this case? For one thing, there are at least three different "wild beasts" found in the scriptures in very different time frames that are pictured with these same "ten horns." (Da 7:7) (Re 13:1 17:3) Would this alone not already begin to present problems with the notion of them serving specifically or exclusively (as you say) "to prophetically identify the 8th king/beast which is the final one"

Then, quoting my post

...see Dan 7:7,8,11,12,13,14. Rev 13:1,2 is what the conglomerate beast looked like in 1948

You say:

The question I would pose to you here is—why exactly would you mention the year 1948 in connection with all this? Yes I realize that this year figures in prominently when it comes to "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine;" but can you direct our attention to any SCRIPTURES that would point to this year for any reason at all? (Mt 15:9) (Isa 8:20)

As I said the way we understand scripture is subjective. I put myself in the viewer/writer's sandals and see and hear what they hear and understand at that time. You see it from another perspective. But Revelation cannot be understood from your perspective. Rev 1:3 tells us that what follows will only be understood when the time is near. in an earlier post, I referred you to the link where this is explained, you must have missed it. Here it is again, post 7

We don't know what scripture if any Daniel had access to in Babylon, but we do know for certain that at the time of receiving the visions starting with Daniel chapter 7 he witnessed events recorded from Dan chapters 1 to 5. He ends this at Dan 7:28, saying: "As for me, Daniel, my own thoughts kept frightening me a great deal ... the matter itself I kept in my heart. The next vision he received around two years later, Dan 8:1-17, is again about the same subject concerning the time of the end, but describes a different aspect of the little horn, (Dan 8:9). At the end of this vision, he is told to, keep secret the vision because it is yet for many days and he says: I kept showing myself numbed on account of the thing seen, and there was nobody understanding it, (Dan 8:26,27). The next vision in Daniel chapter 9 is again a different aspect of the end-time scenario. It culminates with righteousness being brought in to time indefinite ... to imprint seal upon vision and prophet. Starting at Dan 10:1 the things he sees and hears continue to the end of Dan chapter 12. And here the angelic messenger tells Daniel: And I have come to cause you to discern what will befall your people in the final part of the days. And at Dan 12:4 he is told to make secret the words and seal up the book until the time of the end, when many would rove about and the knowledge would become abundant. Daniel himself did not understand any of these visions but is told to go toward his end and rest, with the messenger reassuring him, saying, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days,(Dan 12:13). Many try to align Daniel chapter 11 with historical events, but the only reliable pivotal date we have to work from is the time of the end.

John received the visions of Revelation late in the first century, and we are told that those hearing and seeing and observing the things written in it would be happy because they would know the appointed time is near, (Rev 1:3). People have been interpreting Revelation for nigh on 2000 years. And yet we are still waiting for the appointed time.

Other than his own introduction, (Rev 1:4-7), John records what he hears and sees like an on-the-spot eye-witness. He doesn't connect events with other prophecies as we are in the habit of doing. He knew that Rome was the one that is, (Rev 17:10). He would have had no idea what the next kingdom would be. Today we know who came next. Please see my reply to your post 5, here. I encourage you to download the link to Ramsay's book, The Nameless War, and familiarize yourself with historical events. This has nothing to do with doctrines or religious narratives but is about the on-the-ground political reality that shows how 3 monarchies were overthrown and replaced with democratic rule.

You say:

Since the Greek word here immediately after the word –"see" (evidently more accurately translated as –saw rather than –see) is apparently –itan, and itan literally means-- or even --IT was, the manner in which this verse is rendered in basically EVERY English translation other than the one you chose here seems to make much more sense

It is simply my attempt to render the verse as close to the original Greek. Religious narratives have guided the English rendering of Greek verbs. Here is the verse that concerns you.


(strikethrough, highlights and arrows mine)

The first highlighted verb is wrongly rendered saw, is an aorist verb. Aorist verbs are essentially overview verbs, a bit like the infinitive verb 'to see,' it does not indicate when the seeing occurs. Or if I say 'he sees,' it doesn't tell you when he sees, if he is seeing now, or always sees; that is essentially the function of the aorist verb. The second verb, wrongly rendered was, is imperfect or unfinished time, so should be rendered is. The last Is is present tense and thus the only one where the English rendering is correct.

But even though I may be convinced that this is the time when on-the-ground events match those described in Revelation, I could be wrong, even as many others before me have been. It is not until the 2 witnesses are called to heaven, just prior to the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:12,15) that the identity of the two witnesses is revealed, (Rom 8:19).

When Jesus said that those who love him would receive the spirit of truth, which would teach them all things and bring back to their minds all the things he had taught them, (Jhn 14:26). The 'all the things' refers to a full understanding of what he taught. Because it is only when one applies his teaching, such as: Why do you look for the straw in your brother's eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye, (Mt 7:4), that one becomes aware of one's own failing, and is able to do something about it so as to see more clearly, (Mt 7: 3-5). So the first step to understanding all things is to understand ourselves and the spirit that motivates us.

At Rev 10:4-7, when John was told not to write down what the seven thunders said, but to seal it up. What these seven thunders said is called a sacred secret at Rev 10:7, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he proclaims, [aorist], to his own servant the prophets is brought to a finish, Rev 10:7. Note, he proclaims it to those he calls his servants the prophets at that time. At Rev 5:3, he was told when and how this would occur. It says that not a single one in heaven or earth was found that could break the 7 seals and open the scroll until a lamb with seven horns in the midst of the throne takes the scroll and opens the seals, one after the other. And it is not until he opens the sixth seal, (Rev 5:8; 6:1,5-17; 7:1-4, 9-12), that the number of 144,000 is completed. These are his own servants the prophets to whom the sacred secret is revealed at that time, (Rev 10:7).

Daniel is told: “Go Daniel because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many will cleanse and whiten themselves and be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones will understand; but those with insight will understand, (Dan 12:9,10). Many had woken up from the soil of adamah (Dan 12:2) but only some make the effort to cleanse themselves. What does this cleansing involve?

Jesus refers to this cleansing at Mt 13:44-52, where he likens the kingdom of the heavens to a man finding hidden treasure in a field and immediately sells everything he has to buy that field. And a merchant who finds a pearl of great value who sells everything he has to buy that pearl. And likens this to when the great dragnet is hauled onto the beach and the angels put the suitable aside and the unsuitable they throw away, saying: That is how it will be in the conclusion of the system of things.
He then adds … every public instructor when taught respecting the kingdom of the heavens, is like a man, a householder who throws out, out of his storehouse [things] old and new., (Mt 13:52).

throws out 1544 ekballo From ek and ballo; to eject (literally or figuratively)

(highlights, strike-through & arrows mine)

This is the cleansing and whitening that some of those who wake up during the time of the end do, Dan 12:10. They throw out all that they previously understood from their storehouse of knowledge to make room for the sacred secret, the hidden treasure or pearl of great value that can only be obtained if one is prepared to throw out everything and start afresh.

Daniel is now standing up for his lot, Dan 12:13.