Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

[Get out of her]

LRW wrote:

It no longer existed as a nation, but only as a scattered people. It ascended out of the abyss in 1947/48 when it was granted Palestine for a homeland."

First of all, while the Holy writings do not point to the specific year of the RISE of the "seventh king" here in Revelation 17:10 or otherwise the final "birth" foretold for the world power that would exist in the time frame identified distinguished as that of foreign "exile and captivity" for Jehovah's people, they DO actually identify the year of its spiritual demise. (Jer 15:9) (Lu 21:24) Even aside from the fact that an unusually long span of time was not foretold for the preceding spiritual death in this case as well as the issue of it being rather self–evident when a kingdom becomes a world power, it should be rather apparent that the final foretold spiritual "FALL" of "Babylon the Great" would be the paramount issue at this point. (Da 8:13, 14) (Re 6:9, 10) This is because it is now all about pinpointing THE END of these "gentile times." With this in mind, let's not forget the sequence of spiritual deaths and rebirths associated with these "seven times" was always represented as a cycle or "circuit" of events, and a cycle of course ALWAYS ends in the precisely the manner that it begins. In other words, on this basis ALONE the end of these "gentile times" COULD ONLY be associated with a spiritual death. The prophet Jeremiah made it perfectly clear that this all BEGAN with exactly that. (Jer 1:3) Compare (2 Ki 23:34-47)

Once again the end of this "appointed times of the nations" was always marked not only with a complete forfeiture of DIVINE authority and power in connection with foreign earthly kingdoms, but also very quickly even the authority these "seven kings" would very DESPERATELY require the moment they would once again violate the holy marriage covenant with spiritual "harlotry" and thus "BECOME a dwelling place of demons"…. (Isa 1:21) (Re 18:2) (Da 11:31) (2 Th 2:4) This is namely the temporary authority granted to the "dragon" back in the Garden of Eden when our forbearers chose him over Jehovah, and it is precisely the reason this final "eighth king" is suddenly pictured with no "diadems" or crowns on its "ten horns" here at Revelation 17:3. (Da 7:12) (Lu 4:5, 6) (Compare Re 13:1, 2, 11, 12,)

Yes despite what most of us have long been led to believe by the Watchtower organization, we might notice that this number "1,260" found at Revelation 12: is explicitly associated with ALL the things that are ALWAYS commensurate with a spiritual DEATH of Jehovah's nation as opposed to one of its foretold "births" or "comings." These include "flights" to a kind of spiritual "wilderness," great "woe for the earth" and a condition in which even the ANOINTED ones are in desperate need of spiritual "feeding" and sustenance at the hands of Jehovah's true prophets! (Re 12:6, 12, 14) Compare (Mt 24:15, 16, 45 25:34-40) It is of course Jehovah's ENEMIES that do the "fleeing" when his kingdom is re-established on the earth. Moreover there would be no call whatsoever for a HEAVENLY birth of the Messianic kingdom at this point since the scriptures make it exceedingly clear that this had already occurred in or around the year of 33 CE. (Ga 4:26) (He 12:22) What we are considering there at Revelation 11:15 is simply a confirmation of the points that are repeated in accounts like Daniel 7:12 and Revelation 17:12. Even if satan and his minions continue to exercise much influence over the earth for a short while after this point in time, they no longer possess any AUTHORITY to do so. Undoubtedly this factors in quite significantly to the double portion of Jehovah's adverse judgments that are immanent for them on this final foretold occasion. (Re 18:5-8) But why exactly would these things prove rather crucial for us to understand?

Just in case we are still failing to demonstrate respect for the 2,520 year time span that the scriptures furnish us for these "gentile times" with the instructions for doubling the number "1,260" and then calculating it with this "day for a year" formula beginning with this same starting point found at Jeremiah 1:3, (Compare (Re 12:6, 14) (Nu 14:34) (Eze 4:6)), here are a few things to prayerfully ponder:

Particularly in view of the unusually short life span foretold for this seventh "king" or world power identified in places like Revelation 17:10 before it would experience a spiritual "fall," along with the fact that the Anglo-American world power is recognized by historians as coming into its own at the very end of the 1800s, should the year of 1912 that this number "1,260" points to not make perfect sense? (Re 12:6 17:10) What is more, as if to confirm the truth of this prophecy even further, historians acknowledge that this empire began to experience a decline on really every level right at this very year. But the fact is there are even more confirmations to consider here if we are truly paying close attention to the holy writings.

Only just eight or so years after 1912 this seventh world power openly announced to the entire world that it had in effect done precisely what had been foretold for it all along there at Revelation 13:7 after it would "wage war on the holy ones and conquer them." The Anglo-American world power seemed to actually TAKE PRIDE in the fact that it had taken it upon itself to hand over the reigns of power and authority Jehovah had granted it to a kind of idolatrous "IMAGE of the wild beast" or "EIGHTH king!" (Re 13:14, 15 17:11) We can discern from scriptural prophecy that we now refer to as the United Nations actually experienced its birth sometime in 1912 as the "League of Nations," and even if the existence of this demonic entity was not announced or officially introduced to the world until a few years later. Yes in much the same manner in which the ancient King Jehoiakim handed over his God given authority and power to Pharaoh Necho of Egypt, the Anglo American world power did the same with the League of Nations. Now since this "sin of the priest" or broken holy covenant ALWAYS results in the "removal" of the "continual sacrifice" and its commensurate atoning value from what now WAS Jehovah's earthly "sanctuary" or "temple" and thus brings "guiltiness" right back to what now WERE Jehovah's people, should the words we find in verse 8 of Revelation 13 really come as any surprise to us? (Re 13:7, 8) (Le 4:3) (Da 11:30-32)

Yes regardless of how heavily or effectively we have been indoctrinated over the years to understand things differently, the scriptures as always not only speak for themselves, but also hold true nonetheless. The extremely alarming information the scriptures furnish us here at Revelation 13:7, 8 in connection with the spiritual "fall" of this 7th king should in reality come as no more a surprise to us as the final foretold priestly act of atonement we read of in the very next chapter. (Re 14:15, 16) (Mt 5:18) The reason we read of yet another and much more extensive harvest or "reaping" of the earth immediately thereafter in verses 17-20 is because there is ALWAYS a GENERAL harvest after blood atonement has been furnished for mankind with a "harvest" or resurrection of the "FIRSTfruits." (Re 14:17-20) (1Cor 15:23) Compare (Re 14:4 20:6) Moreover what actually qualifies as a figurative or spiritual rebirth even in connection with this secondary group or "other sheep" (a religious conversion of repentant ones after another "birth" or "coming" of Jehovah's nation) ALWAYS coincides with an outright annihilation of Jehovah's enemies or what is also referred to with terms such as a "bowl of the anger of God" or "a conclusion of a system of things." (Joh 10:16) (Lu 12:32) (Re 7:9, 14 16:1) (Mt 13:39) [NWT or otherwise refer to the koine Greek writings for Matthew 13:39]

Once again this is an ongoing CYCLE or "circuit"/"wheelwork" of events we are ultimately considering here. (Mt 10:23) (Jos 6:3-5) (Eze 10:13) Among the things we would all do very well to take note of however in connection with this final foretold ministry in which even Jehovah's true prophets would qualify as nothing more than repentant spiritual prostitutes (Mt 24:28) (Re 12:14) (Le 11:13) until blood atonement is furnished is the following:

Even if this final foretold abomination we now refer to as the United Nations would qualify as a kind of "eighth king," the scriptures nonetheless make it clear it would manifest itself in the time of the "seventh trumpet blast" or what the Apostle Paul referred to as the "LAST trumpet." (1 Cor 15:51-53) With this in mind, did we happen to notice the kind of theocratic ministers that Paul foretold to be produced here in 1st Corinthians by this final foretold resurrection or "reaping"/"harvest of the firstfruits"? namely the one that the Apostle John identified as eventually following the spiritual death of the seventh world power? (Re 14:15, 16)

Yes it is as if Paul here is actually repeating verbatim precisely what the prophet Daniel had long before foretold for the "time of the end." (Da 12:3) Is it not exceedingly clear that basically EVERYTHING we read there in Revelation in connection with what the Apostle Paul referred to as the final foretold "self sacrifice" of these men who are "reserved" to "die once for all time" to "bear the sins of the many" is now pertaining specifically to what would now be the Millennial Reign? (He 9:26-28) So particularly with this in mind, let's by all means consider the following questions:

Is this unimaginably glorious ministry on the part "incorruptible and immortal" representatives of Jehovah what the earth experienced with the so called birth or re-establishment of the "State of Israel" in 1948? Does it not seem incredibly absurd to even actually CONSIDER a question like this? The fact is however that this is only the beginning of the problems the scriptures pose for such a notion.

Beginning with my next post, let's by all means address some remaining difficulties the scriptures present for such a notion.

Agape love;
Sol

[Get out of her]

CI wrote:

Since I have already covered the beast in numerous posts in Revelation threads and you want to debate this, or as you say

…"to lovingly and respectfully demonstrate a NUMBER of irreconcilable difficulties that the scriptures present for this understanding

... So if we are to first of all "render our sacred service with our power of reason," would it not make perfect sense to consider questions like the following in this case?"


You see it as your sacred service to convince me you are right and I am wrong. So I suggest you start a new topic on the beasts of Daniel and Revelation, and then everyone can join in and have their say. I do not see what I do here as a sacred service at all.

First of all please forgive me for reminding you (CI) that I am currently replying to posts of yours that were directed specifically to me in response to my questions or requests. (A response I greatly appreciate by the way) I'm certain you have known me long enough to realize I would be responding to your answers with the scriptures. Moreover you have been here long enough to know that basically the entire purpose of creating or authoring threads on this website is to generate open scriptural discussions on them. Now if you suddenly find yourself in a situation in which you feel it would be easier for you to try and evict someone (and their respectful scriptural replies to your comments) from a particular thread you initiated rather than actually defending your positions with the scriptures and sound reasoning, then I have a suggestion or two of my own. And if anything this would particularly apply if by your own admission you do not recognize (as you say)—

what I do here as a sacred service at all.

With all due love and respect I would suggest you give some prayerful consideration to the question of whether you should be endeavoring to teach your fellow spiritual brothers and sisters in the first place. It is by no means a matter of (as you say)—convincing someone that they are wrong and that you are right. In the case of ANY GENUINE scriptural discussion, it is a matter of demonstrating that JEHOVAH is correct, and that his holy writings hold true REGARDLESS of any and ALL of the false teachings that are ultimately inspired by the demons. (Re 16:13)

All of us will find ourselves essentially standing before the person Jehovah at some point, and no doubt sooner than later in our case. Moreover particularly in view of the prophetic time frame or setting we currently find ourselves in, rest assured the paramount issue on HIS mind is exactly how we were individually conducting ourselves during this final foretold ministry towards the spiritually "sleeping" figurative "virgins" and "widows" of yet another broken holy marriage covenant. (La 1:1, 4) (Mt 24:37, 45 25:1, 2, 5, 10, 34-40) I can attest to the fact that in MY case at least, if a brother or sister of mine were able to use the scriptures to demonstrate that I was incorrect on even ONE of my understandings, I would feel MUCH more comfortable explaining to Jehovah that I was very grateful and that I quickly made the necessary adjustment to my viewpoint rather than choosing to ignore this person or even worse, endeavor to evict them from the discussion entirely.

Do we really not understand that a broken kingdom covenant or otherwise precisely what ALWAYS produces the need for another "coming of the Christ" completely destroys ANY AND ALL divine authority and power for ANY ministry? and that no genuine theocratic power and authority for such from that time forward exists on the earth at all until the arrival of one or two genuine prophets of Jehovah? (Am 3:7)

But even aside from this, should it not be rather apparent that if we truly qualify as genuine truth seekers we would if anything feel eternally indebted to ANYONE who could demonstrate with the scriptures that we are mistaken on even ONE of our scriptural views or understandings, even if it happens to be the incredibly lowly and insignificant Sol? (Ps 141:5) If ANYONE here truly believes that I am mistaken on ANYTHING to do with the holy writings, PLEASE do your utmost to prove me wrong! If you can do so it will only serve to bring me closer to the truth or otherwise the accurate knowledge of God's word. But understand in advance that this would involve utilizing the scriptures themselves along with sound reasoning on them, and not mere "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine." (Mt 15:9) And you most CERTAINLY will not convince me by simply endeavoring to kick me out a scriptural discussion altogether.

Agape love;
Sol

[Get out of her]

Getting back to the discussion and more specifically this issue of the creation of the state of "Israel" in 1948 supposedly qualifying as one of the foretold "births" or "comings" of Jehovah's kingdom:

Are we seriously expected to understand that Jehovah spent literally millenniums of time "typifying" or prophetically/symbolically illustrating the emergence of spiritual Israel (TRUE Christianity) in the first century, only to suddenly change his mind in 1948 and endeavor to convert repentant humans right back to Judaism? (He 8:5 9:23) (Ga 4:24-26) Would we be "rendering our sacred service with our power of reason" to understand that this long anticipated "reality that belongs to the Christ" was suddenly to be all for naught in 1948, and that man's salvation would now be contingent on reverting back to the mere "copy" of this "reality"? namely the "reality" that finally began to manifest its foretold "births" in 33 CE? (Ro 12:1) (He 9:24) (Col 2:17) (Jer 15:9) We can be certain that SATAN would be pleased for us all to believe so! With that in mind, we would undoubtedly do well to consider the following:

For those of us who are unaware, the satan worshiping Rothschild family has openly taken credit for establishing the modern state of "Israel" in 1948. (They of course prefer the name—Lucifer) Moreover, while I have personally witnessed Jacob Rothschild take credit for this in an interview, never once have I seen anyone even attempt to dispute this claim. But then, based alone on what would now amount to roughly 75 or so years of this nation's history, the question I would pose on this would be –what exactly would move anyone to even BOTHER disputing this claim? For one thing, is it not so that conditions for the earth and mankind have only WORSENED since the advent of this new nation? Bear in mind first of all that throughout its entire history, any time in which Jehovah's nation has manifested itself on the earth it has done so as a world power. Secondly, as such it always works for the "GOOD of people" in ALL of its "jurisdictional districts," while "speaking PEACE to its offspring," or otherwise the exact opposite of what we CONSTANTLY witness on the part of this so called "State of Israel" born in 1948. (Es 9:30 10:3) Compare (Da 4:10-12) (2 Ch 9:23)

You see even aside from the glaringly obvious fact that this manifestation of so called "Israel" in 1948 did not even BEGIN to bring about the rather paradisaical promises foretold for the long anticipated Millennial Reign or for that matter the blessings associated with ANY of the foretold "births of the barren woman," the form of so called "Judaism" it has ALWAYS been associated with has never even so much as ATTEMPTED to champion the Old Testament. Yes assuming we are foolish enough to fall for the idea of Jehovah suddenly deciding to exchange SPIRITUAL Israel for its ancient fleshly version in the first place, should we not at the very LEAST understand that if so it would be a manifestation that recognizes the Old Testament as its point of authority? With the exception perhaps of a scripture here and there that they could see as convenient when taken out of context, it is merely the extremely blasphemous Talmud or even the Kabbala that fills this role for what are now often referred to as "Zionist Jews." But based alone on the fact that they also identify with terms like –"Khazerian Jews" or "Ashkenazi Jews," should this really come as any surprise for us?

Just in case we are unaware, BOTH of these references amount to a contradiction in terms. They are as much of an oxy-moron as the governing body of the Watchtower organization claiming to be the "bride of the Christ" while at the same time identifying themselves as the "faithful and discreet slave." (Re 21:2, 9) (Mt 24:45) This "faithful steward" CAN ONLY exist in a setting of a BROKEN holy marriage covenant. It is a "ShuNAmmite" entity as opposed to a resurrected/"harvested" "ShuLAmmite" one. (Song 6:13) As illustrated in accounts like 1 Kings 1:1-4 or 2 Kings 4, it tends lovingly to a kind of sick or spiritually "sleeping" (even "dead- like") group of anointed ones, who for this very reason are NOT engaging in marital relations or figurative "intercourse" with any heavenly "bridegroom." (Mt 25:1, 2, 5, 10, 34-40) This broken marriage covenant and its resulting spiritual death is precisely the reason they are identified not only as figurative/spiritual "virgins," but even "widows." (La 1:1, 4) This "carcass"-like condition is precisely what ALWAYS now requires yet another of the foretold "BIRTHS" of what is once again also a kind of "BARREN woman." (Mt 24:28) (Jer 15:9) (Isa 54:1-4 66:7, 8)

The term –Khazerian is a reference to the nation of Kazakhstan as opposed to Israel. And not only was it in this place that this so called form of "Judaism" was created, but this occurred around 12 centuries prior to 1948. However as ridiculous as this might already seem, identifying with the term- "Ashkenazi Jew" would comprise an even greater contradiction. So why exactly would this scripturally ignorant behavior be very much like the hierarchy of the Watchtower organization identifying themselves simultaneously as the "bride of the Christ" and the "faithful and discreet slave?"

For those of us who are unaware, the term –Semitic (among the terms used for a Jew or more specifically the genuine theocratic power and authority that this term actually points to) is based on the name –Shem (the firstborn of Noah's three sons) who did indeed serve as among even the very first symbolic representations of the shepherding facet of Jehovah's nation, or otherwise a Jew as opposed to simply an Israelite. (Zec 11:14-17) (Ge 9:24, 25) While both Ham and his son Canaan along with their rather traitorous actions served as essentially another way of picturing the Esau entity in relation to his brother Jacob (or Israel), Japheth on the other hand served to prophetically represent the sheep that this Semitic entity would in effect cover or shelter in his figurative "tents." (Ge 32:28)

In other words this sheltering was used to prophetically represent or symbolize ("typify") the covering or atoning value of the Christ which in turn points particularly to its commensurate priestly sacrifices. (He 8:5) (Ga 4:24) Let's not forget that it was precisely this distinction between a Jew or a Judean as opposed to simply an Israelite that if anything was used as the PRIMARY way of representing the difference between the "shepherding" and "flock" facets of Jehovah's nation. As it so happens, the ancient Ashkenaz was among the descendants of JAPHETH; not Shem! (Ge 10:2, 3) (1 Ch 1:5, 6) Therefore for one to identify themselves as an Ashkenazi Jew would mean that by their own admission they do not qualify as such even in a FLESHLY sense!

Yes assuming it would be ANYONE'S prerogative to completely ignore the fact that the Mosaic Law code was "fulfilled" or otherwise made "obsolete" in the first century to begin with, these "Ashkenazi Jews" by their own admission would not even qualify as literal/FLESHLY Jews, let alone a spiritual ones. (Mt 5:17) (He 8:13) However if they would choose the Talmud and the Kabbalah over even the Old Testament, why would we expect to witness any respect on their part for the Holy Scriptures in the first place? In fact since the Old Testament continually points prophetically to the spiritual manifestation of Israel, would it not make perfect sense on that basis alone that these false Jews much prefer their Talmud and Kabbalah? (Jer 31:31-34) (Isa 53) (De 10:16 30:6) (Joe 2:13)

I am reminded here of the words of the Apostle Paul at Galatians 4:21. If it were not for divine warnings such as found at 2 Corinthians 13-15, would the scriptures as well as the self-evident history of this so called nation state of "Israel" that was created in 1948 not make it exceedingly clear that the ignorance and evil involved in all this is almost unfathomable? But if I were to be completely honest with my dear brothers and sisters, what would make this pale by comparison is the idea of ones such as ourselves actually buying into this absurdity. The name Israel literally means- ruler and contender with God. In my case at least I would have to confess that the mere notion of this nation created in 1948 actually qualifying as such makes me want to vomit. Its very existence alone only serves to confirm the truth of scriptural prophecy in connection with the idolatrous false worship that would result from the final foretold apostasy of Jehovah's appointed earthly shepherds. (Re 13:7, 8, 14, 15) (Isa 28:8) I am speaking namely of this theocratic shepherding fold comprised of "holy ones" that was ALWAYS associated with the number two as opposed to ten. TWO tribes as opposed to ten tribes, or even "two HORNS" as opposed to "TEN horns." (Re 13:7, 8, 17:3)

Yes do we really imagine it is merely a coincidence that when these "holy ones" here in Revelation 13:7 experience a "conquering" or spiritual "killing" at the hands of this "wild beast" they are suddenly now represented symbolically as merely "LIKE a lamb," but one that now "speaks as a DRAGON" as opposed to the "lamb of GOD that takes the sin away from the world"? (Re 13:11) (Joh 1:29) And could this forfeiture of the genuine Shem entity possibly account for the fact that the Japheth or TEN TRIBED or "all the nations" one which is now quickly "misled" by its compromised counterpart is subsequently now pictured as NO LONGER residing in the figurative "tents of Shem" or otherwise no longer covered by the blood atonement of this shepherding entity? (Re 13:8, 14) (Ge 9:27 48:19) Compare (Ex 12:38) (Zec 11:3-5) (Da 11:31) (2 Th 2:4) Yes do we in turn imagine it is merely a coincidence that the "misleading" of this Japheth entity that resulted from the final foretold spiritual "conquering" of the "holy ones" here in Revelation 13 suddenly now constitutes it once again as merely "all the nations" as opposed to "a great crowd OUT OF all nations…" that have "washed their garments and made them white in the blood of the lamb"? In my case I would strongly suggest that my dear brothers and sisters endeavor to recognize ALL of this factual information as more than worthy of prayerful consideration.

CI wrote:

How did the Anglo/American two-horned lamb-like beast manage to persuade all the others to vote the nation-state of Israel into existence? What happened after America came off victorious from WW2 is described thus: And it exercises all authority in the face of the first beast, [of Rev 1:1,2]. And it makes the earth and those dwelling in it worship or pay homage to the beast/head whose death-stroke gets healed. And it performs great signs so that it even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of men, (Rev 13:12,13). It did this when it dropped the first atom bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima

Are the problems that the scriptures present for assertions like this not already becoming increasingly clear? Just in case this is still not so with some of us, my intention is to pick up the discussion with these statements beginning with my next post.

Agape love;
Sol

[coccus ilicis]

Getting back to the discussion and more specifically this issue of the creation of the state of "Israel" in 1948 supposedly qualifying as one of the foretold "births" or "comings" of Jehovah's kingdom:
...
Are the problems that the scriptures present for assertions like this not already becoming increasingly clear? Just in case this is still not so with some of us, my intention is to pick up the discussion with these statements beginning with my next post.

Agape love;
Sol

Hello Sol,

Though you close your post with agape, I see little love here. I had asked you to start a new topic that deals specifically with the subject of the beast of Daniel and Revelation, which you ignored. So I started the new topic myself and spent time copying and pasting the posts from here to there, specifically for you. See my replies to your posts including the one above post 6 &7, there. Please do not keep posting your views on this subject here.

The topic of this thread is Revelation - where We are in the Stream of Time. It is the place for all those interested in the timing of events of Revelation to have their say, and not a platform for one to harangue others with their views, ridiculing them. Any related topics that need to be thrashed out in-depth, i.e. the beasts of Daniel and Revelation can always be addressed in a new topic specifically on the subject. That way readers can keep track of the subject in hand, namely where we are in the stream of time.

[Stranger]

Though you close your post with agape, I see little love here.

Hi Coccus,

Not to butt in,,, but just to let you know I'm not seeing it either. I'm not sure why Sol chose you to push his "one of Jehovah's prophets scheme" on,
but it's been very blatant that he's not showing any Christian qualities in my opinion.



Stranger, (1Jn 4:3)

[coccus ilicis]

Though you close your post with agape, I see little love here.

Hi Coccus,
Not to butt in,,, but just to let you know I'm not seeing it either. I'm not sure why Sol chose you to push his "one of Jehovah's prophets scheme" on,
but it's been very blatant that he's not showing any Christian qualities in my opinion.

Stranger, (1Jn 4:3)

Though you close your post with agape, I see little love here.

Hi Coccus,

Not to butt in,,, but just to let you know I'm not seeing it either. I'm not sure why Sol chose you to push his "one of Jehovah's prophets scheme" on.
Stranger, (1Jn 4:3)

Hi stranger,

Thanks for your reply. I am aware that understanding where I am coming from is a complete departure from how we have been taught to interpret scripture. It's also nice to see JohnS back on the scene. He tabled Rev 8. He is right when he says we are right in the midst of the tail-end when the 7th trumped is about to be sounded.

Rev 1:3 says: “Happy is he who reads and hears the words of this prophecy and observes the things written in it. For the appointed time is near. It is one thing to read and hear prophecies, but it is another thing entirely when one is living in the time when they are being fulfilled. Take Herod for example. He may have known that there was a prophecy about the coming of a Jewish king. But when the wise men from the east were led to him and told him they had seen a star, which indicated that a king of the Jews had been born, it was an entirely different matter. He knew he needed to act, and act he did. He killed all the boy babies in Bethlehem, (Mt 2:1-5,16).

Those seeing and hearing the things written in Revelation are in the same situation. How will they react? They can side with the Herod type, and do his bidding or they can take their stand as foretold at Rev 13:9 … If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is meant for captivity he goes away to captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he will be killed by the sword. Here is where it means endurance for the holy/set apart ones, (Rev 13:9,10).

Compare: It will be for an appointed time appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people, [set apart people], to pieces all these things will come to their finish … Happy is the one keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days, (Dan 12:7.12). I think one of the problems is assuming we know what the Bible says, I have found that every time I make the effort to check what it says in the original language in the interlinear, I find something that I had missed. The same holds true when I don't read what others have to say properly, before replying.

So who are the set apart people concerning whom Daniel is told: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many [of those that have woken up Dan 12:2], will cleanse and whiten themselves and will be refined. And wicked ones will certainly act wickedly and no wicked ones at all will understand, but the ones having insight will understand, (Dan 12:9,10).

The separation between these two groups of individuals is now in progress. One group will go into everlasting life and the other into everlasting abhorrence, (Dan 12:2). Jesus said that at the time of the harvest the reapers would first collect the weeds and bind them into bundles toward the burnup, (Mt 13:30). The field has been cut and the binding of the weeds into bundles/stooks is coming to a completion.


The BBC recently made a documentary, 'The Whistleblowers Inside The UN, 2022' when I tried to find the BBC documentary on YouTube this came up:


But I found this site where it still can be watched: https://ok.ru/video/4017403922991. So not only are individuals being excluded from the UN bundles/stooks but they are also excluded from the BBC bundles/stooks. To hear what they have to say one must look amongst the stubble for individual stalks of wheat.

With political propaganda ruling the day (Rev 8:10,11) one must make an effort not to be drowned as the dragon disgorges water like a river from his mouth to sweep the woman away. But the earth helps the woman and opens up its mouth to swallow the deluge that the dragon disgorges out of his mouth, (Rev 12:15, 16).

Here is an example of the earth coming to the woman's aid.
Germany criminalizes journalists for exposing Ukrainian war crimes.


On watching this I got the impression that the EU, Germany in this case, is turning into a police state. POLICE STATE: a country in which the activities of the people are strictly controlled by the government with the help of a police force,Britannica Dictionary

In explanation of the illustration where the harvesters are instructed to tie the weeds into stooks, as shown in the picture above, Jesus said: the sowing of the good seed is the son of man, and the field is the world. And the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, and the weeds are the sons of evil/bad, [bad and good are adjectives, as at Gen 2:9 & Mt 6:23], And the enemy sowing them is the Devil, And the harvest is the conclusion of the system of things, [as at Dan 12:4]. And the son of man will send forth his angels and collect out of his kingdom all the stumbling blocks, [as at Mt 18:7], and all those practising lawlessness, [as at 2Thes 2:3]. And they will cast them into the furnace … then the righteous will shine as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one having ears let him hear, [present imperative], (Mt 13:37-43. cf. Rev 19:1,2).

[coccus ilicis]

Though you close your post with agape, I see little love here.

Hi Coccus,

Not to butt in,,, but just to let you know I'm not seeing it either. I'm not sure why Sol chose you to push his "one of Jehovah's prophets scheme" on.
Stranger, (1Jn 4:3)

Hi stranger,

Thanks for your reply. I am aware that understanding where I am coming from is a complete departure from how we have been taught to interpret scripture. It's also nice to see JohnS back on the scene. He tabled Rev 8. He is right when he says we are right in the midst of the tail-end when the 7th trumped is about to be sounded.

Rev 1:3 says: “Happy is he who reads and hears the words of this prophecy and observes the things written in it. For the appointed time is near. It is one thing to read and hear prophecies, but it is another thing entirely when one is living in the time when they are being fulfilled. Take Herod for example. He may have known that there was a prophecy about the coming of a Jewish king. But when the wise men from the east were led to him and told him they had seen a star, which indicated that a king of the Jews had been born, it was an entirely different matter. He knew he needed to act, and act he did. He killed all the boy babies in Bethlehem, (Mt 2:1-5,16).

Those seeing and hearing the things written in Revelation are in the same situation. How will they react? They can side with the Herod type, and do his bidding or they can take their stand as foretold at Rev 13:9 … If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is meant for captivity he goes away to captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he will be killed by the sword. Here is where it means endurance for the holy/set apart ones, (Rev 13:9,10).

Compare: It will be for an appointed time appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people, [set apart people], to pieces all these things will come to their finish … Happy is the one keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days, (Dan 12:7.12). I think one of the problems is assuming we know what the Bible says, I have found that every time I make the effort to check what it says in the original language in the interlinear, I find something that I had missed. The same holds true when I don't read what others have to say properly, before replying.

So who are the set apart people concerning whom Daniel is told: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many [of those that have woken up Dan 12:2], will cleanse and whiten themselves and will be refined. And wicked ones will certainly act wickedly and no wicked ones at all will understand, but the ones having insight will understand, (Dan 12:9,10).

The separation between these two groups of individuals is now in progress. One group will go into everlasting life and the other into everlasting abhorrence, (Dan 12:2). Jesus said that at the time of the harvest the reapers would first collect the weeds and bind them into bundles toward the burnup, (Mt 13:30). The field has been cut and the binding of the weeds into bundles/stooks is coming to a completion.


The BBC recently made a documentary, 'The Whistleblowers Inside The UN, 2022' when I tried to find the BBC documentary on YouTube this came up:


But I found this site where it still can be watched: https://ok.ru/video/4017403922991. So not only are individuals being excluded from the UN bundles/stooks but they are also excluded from the BBC bundles/stooks. To hear what they have to say one must look amongst the stubble for individual stalks of wheat.

With political propaganda ruling the day (Rev 8:10,11) one must make an effort not to be drowned as the dragon disgorges water like a river from his mouth to sweep the woman away. But the earth helps the woman and opens up its mouth to swallow the deluge that the dragon disgorges out of his mouth, (Rev 12:15, 16).

Here is an example of the earth coming to the woman's aid.
Germany criminalizes journalists for exposing Ukrainian war crimes.


On watching this I got the impression that the EU, Germany in this case, is turning into a police state. POLICE STATE: a country in which the activities of the people are strictly controlled by the government with the help of a police force,Britannica Dictionary

In explanation of the illustration where the harvesters are instructed to tie the weeds into stooks, as shown in the picture above, Jesus said: the sowing of the good seed is the son of man, and the field is the world. And the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, and the weeds are the sons of evil/bad, [bad and good are adjectives, as at Gen 2:9 & Mt 6:23], And the enemy sowing them is the Devil, And the harvest is the conclusion of the system of things, [as at Dan 12:4]. And the son of man will send forth his angels and collect out of his kingdom all the stumbling blocks, [as at Mt 18:7], and all those practising lawlessness, [as at 2Thes 2:3]. And they will cast them into the furnace … then the righteous will shine as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one having ears let him hear, [present imperative], (Mt 13:37-43. cf. Rev 19:1,2).

[Get out of her]

CI wrote:

Though you close your post with agape, I see little love here. I had asked you to start a new topic that deals specifically with the subject of the beast of Daniel and Revelation, which you ignored. So I started the new topic myself and spent time copying and pasting the posts from here to there, specifically for you. See my replies to your posts including the one above post 6 &7, there. Please do not keep posting your views on this subject here.

The topic of this thread is Revelation - where We are in the Stream of Time. It is the place for all those interested in the timing of events of Revelation to have their say, and not a platform for one to harangue others with their views, ridiculing them. Any related topics that need to be thrashed out in-depth, i.e. the beasts of Daniel and Revelation can always be addressed in a new topic specifically on the subject. That way readers can keep track of the subject in hand, namely where we are in the stream of time.

Again (CI) I would refer you back to the reply I submitted to you with post #122. To begin with, (respectfully) you do not seem to understand that it is basically impossible for someone to be off topic when they are replying to posts that were directed specifically to them, and even more so when the inquiry was concerning a post that the author of that particular subject had placed on their own thread.

As I already pointed out, on my end at least this is not about wanting to argue or fight with anyone, but rather to establish the truth of what the scriptures actually teach and thus defend the Bible and by extension its true author; which is of course ultimately Jehovah himself. If this website is truly designed to "Discuss the Truth," then it should be quite clear to everyone that this is the whole idea of this scriptural platform in the first place. Since you are not the owner of this website, no one here should need to inform you that you are in no position to give direction to someone on how exactly they should conduct themselves on it, and all the more so when they are doing this very much in line with what the forum was designed for in the first place. If this very reasonable approach to scriptural discussions should at some point be altered by the owners and moderators of this site to where this is no longer even possible, you can be rather certain I would no longer have any part in it anyway. As far as this accusation of yours that I am guilty of not displaying love, I would argue the following:

I would have to insist that doing ones utmost to establish and defend the true teachings of God's word against any and all teachings and reasonings to the contrary is if anything among the ULTIMATE expressions of love. Conversely I would contend that among the greatest offenses against love would be for one to continue endeavoring to teach others alleged scriptural truths after someone has clearly demonstrated to them that their assertions are largely out of harmony with the scriptures. Particularly in view of what is conveyed in passages like John 17:3, would that person not actually be guilty of KNOWINGLY jeopardizing even the very lives of others if or when they begin conducting themselves in this manner?

Agape love;
Sol

[Get out of her]

CI wrote:

How did the Anglo/American two-horned lamb-like beast manage to persuade all the others to vote the nation-state of Israel into existence? What happened after America came off victorious from WW2 is described thus: And it exercises all authority in the face of the first beast, [of Rev 1:1,2]. And it makes the earth and those dwelling in it worship or pay homage to the beast/head whose death-stroke gets healed. And it performs great signs so that it even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of men, (Rev 13:12,13). It did this when it dropped the first atom bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima

First of all even if we choose to simply ignore the scriptural prophesies (or even verifiable calculations) that point to the year 1912 as when the "seventh king" or Anglo-American world power would cease to exist as such, (on this occasion experiencing both a spiritual as well a LITERAL "fall" just as occurred also at the start of this "seven times or "gentile times" phenomenon), the fact is that only a few years later (1920) England and the U.S.A. themselves took even a leading role in announcing to the world that there was now a new world power which would go by the name of- The League of Nations. (Re 13:14, 15 17:10, 11 18:2) (Da 4:23, 32) (Lu 21:24) (1 Th 5:1-3) Therefore by the time we get to 1948, if anything it would have been what the scriptures foretold as the- "image to/of the wild beast" or "eighth king" which would have (as you say) –…"persuaded all the others to vote the nation-state of Israel into existence." By extension obviously it would not have been "America" that fulfilled the prophecy you are citing there at Revelation 13:12, 13, but rather what at this point people would refer to as the United Nations.

Unfortunately the more I actually take the time to read the posts you are submitting to this thread LRW, the more it becomes clear just how much we need to take a moment to get our bearings here, or perhaps I should say— establish with the scriptures just exactly where we currently are in the "stream of time" in relation to the prophesies of Revelation. So beginning with my next post, let's by all means do exactly that. My intention is to cover some additional scriptural input on these prophesies while at the same time pointing to historical evidence that makes the timelines Jehovah assigns to them even more irrefutable.

Agape love;
Sol

[Get out of her]

Bear in mind first of all that at the moment we are primarily discussing prophesies that are found in Revelation Chapters 13 and 17. This by extension means that we are currently considering events that were foretold to occur after the blowing of the "SEVENTH trumpet," or what Paul referred to as the "LAST trumpet." (Re 11:15) (1 Cor 15:51-53) It would be very helpful to understand that any thorough or carefully cross referenced scriptural analysis of a "trumpet blast" will soon reveal that this term consistently points at least primarily (no surprise here) to a divine battle cry or call to arms against Jehovah's enemies. (Ho 5:8) (Jos 6:5) (1 Cor 14:8) This begs the question then of when exactly was it or otherwise what precise event always occurred on the earth that GRANTED the divine authority and power necessary to execute Jehovah's adverse judgments against his enemies?

Well just as the entire history of Jehovah's nation has consistently demonstrated, this has everything to do with an arrival on the earth of some rather distinct or unusual (as well as very oppressed and humiliated) prophets of Jehovah that are identified with terms such as—"son of man," "two witnesses," "faithful stewards," or even "spies/inspectors" of Christ's "brothers" or "domestics." (Eze 2:1) (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12) (Mt 24:45, 25:40) (Lu 19:44) (Jos 2:1) The purpose of these prophets is to assist Jehovah with what he actually recognizes as another "founding of the world," which in turn is accomplished with a ministry on their part that culminates with another renewed and inaugurated holy kingdom covenant. (Also identified as a kind of holy marriage contract as well as a law covenant) (Eph 1:4) (He 4:3 9:25-28) (Ro 13:10) (Re 13:8) (Eze 17) Yes Jehovah does not actually recognize a world or even a life that is essentially controlled by the demons as a "REAL life," or as a "city" that has "REAL foundations." (1 Ti 6:19) (He 11:10) (Isa 62:6, 7)

In other words, since the very EXISTENCE of ANY nation (and thus the rulers OR citizens identified by its name) is based on the establishment of its legal authority, and a broken law covenant on the part of its rulers or even collective citizenship actually DESTROYS its authority, these rather unique prophets are actually assisting Jehovah with restoring ISRAEL ITSELF to the earth! This is regardless of whether it is SPIRITUAL Israel (TRUE Christianity) or the "copy of the reality" that served to prophetically and symbolically "typify" it. (He 8:5 9:24) (1 Cor 3:16, 17 6:15) It is precisely for this reason that these very humiliated and persecuted prophets are also identified by Jehovah as "prophets to the NATIONS" as OPPOSED to Israel. (Jer 1:5) In the case of SPIRITUAL Israel, this would amount to saying that after a holy marriage covenant has been violated with spiritual adultery, by SCRIPTURAL definition there is actually no such thing as a TRUE Christian on the earth until the arrival of these "prophets to the nations" or what is also referred to as a "coming of the Christ." But what exactly is the point here?

Just as we can confirm even also by simply reading the verses that follow yet another announcement of a "trumpet blast" in Revelation, it is always another priestly act of self sacrifice on the part of these "witnesses prophesying in sackcloth" (also referred to symbolically as a newborn "son caught away to God" or a "reaping of the earth"/"harvest of the firstfruits") followed by a call from heaven to "come up here" that always furnishes the divine power and authority on the earth needed to eradicate Jehovah's enemies. We can be rather certain this is no coincidence. (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12 12:5 14:15, 16 20:6) (1 Cor 15:23) In other words the very same legal authority and power necessary to "make disciples of people of ALL the nations" or otherwise qualify people once again as spiritual Israelites is the very same theocratic power and authority required to render Jehovah's adverse judgments upon his enemies. (Mt 28:18-20) (Ga 6:16) This would be in contrast to merely the "LOST sheep of the HOUSE of Israel" (yet another symbolic reference to the spiritually "sleeping virgins" and "widows" of another broken marriage covenant) that these humiliated prophets are restricted to in the meantime. (Mt 10:5, 6 25:1, 2, 5, 10, 34-40) (La 1:1, 4) But how exactly would this information serve to help us better understand precisely where we currently are in relation to the timeline or even "trumpet blasts" of Revelation?

As I've already touched on, we can see that the priestly atonement involved in a renewed kingdom covenant that is covered in the 11th Chapter of Revelation is listed under the events foretold for the "SIXTH trumpet" blast. (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12) Compare (Re 9:13) Hopefully at least by now we understand that this would point in turn to the foretold rise of the sixth world power or "sixth king" that would appear on the earth after the kingdom of ancient Babylon. Once again this would have been the kingdom of Great Britain that began to establish itself as a world power at the very end of the 1600s or otherwise precisely the time frame that the prophecy found at Daniel 8:14 points to. Particularly now that we have a very well established point of reference, the fact that that roughly 200 years later a seventh world power emerged that came to be known as the Anglo-American one should likely begin being recognized by us as all the more meaningful. In other words LRW is correct to identify this world power as the "seventh king" spoken of there at Revelation 17:10. As I continue to demonstrate, in her case (respectfully) it is the scriptural information and events connected more with the 5th, 6th and final "8th king" that has her completely confounded and by extension very much in the dark with regard to the precise timeline of these foretold "kings" and the "times and seasons" connected to them. (Da 4:23, 32) (1 Th 5:1-3) (Lu 21:24)

Yes the fact is if we were to begin thinking more in terms also of figurative "SEASONS" in connection with these "seven times" or "seven kings" just as scriptures like 1 Thessalonians 5:1 indicate we should, this would actually go a long way in helping us to better grasp things like a "fall of "Babylon the Great" as well as where exactly we currently are in connection with what would ultimately prove to be "EIGHTH kings" prior to the Millennial Reign. (1 Th 3:1) (Re 17:11) Rest assured it is no coincidence that Jehovah chose to include this concept of "seasons" in connection with these "times of the nations" since there are actually four of them for each respective "time." This is precisely what is being covered in the symbolic spiritual language found in accounts like Ezekiel 1:5-11 and 10:2-22.

While the various and even continuous ways of representing the number four here in Ezekiel is actually pointing to the four "seasons" of these "seven times," the "wheelwork" pictured here is simply another way of symbolically representing the cyclical nature of these "gentile times" or what is referred to even as a "circuitry." (Mt 10:23) (Jos 6:3-5) However for the sake of this particular discussion or otherwise to help us better understand things like precisely where we currently are in relation to the prophesies of Revelation, quite likely it would help to simply think of these four "seasons" in the following way:

Season ONE of a "time" of one of these "seven" foretold "kings" = A SPIRITUAL "birth" of one of these foreign world powers that always results from a ministry of Jehovah's true prophets followed with a priestly act of blood atonement on their parts to fully legitimize a renewed holy kingdom "covenant." (Lu 22:28, 29) (He 9:16-18, 26-28) (Eze 17)

Season TWO = The LITERAL birth or rise to world dominance that the granting of divine authority and power to what Jehovah actually describes as a "stupid nation" always results in. Yes we would do well to appreciate that this foreign dominance or even what would largely amount to a "trampling" of Israel is actually part of the loving discipline it would receive for its unfaithfulness towards Jehovah. (De 32:21) (Ro 10:19-21) (Lu 21:24) (He 12:7)

Season THREE =A spiritual DEATH of this world power that always comes particularly from the "stupidity" involved in very quickly breaking the "holy covenant" or formal/legal agreement that constitutes this nation as a world power in the first place. (Da 11:30-32)

Season FOUR = The LITERAL death or destruction that is always inevitable for this world power after it violates Jehovah's holy covenant with spiritual adultery or even "harlotry." (Isa 1:21) (Re 17:1 18:2) While the nation that became a world power may or may not actually continue to exist for a time now simply as a nation (one now experiencing a decline or even a "breakdown" on every level) after committing spiritual "prostitution," it will never again qualify as a world power in its original form. (Jer 8:11) (Isa 1:21) (Eze 23:1-4)

To pinpoint the time frames we are considering in the prophesies or even "seals/trumpet blasts/bowls" of Revelation even more precisely however, its important to understand that just as is confirmed by the prophesies found at Revelation 13:14, 15 and 17:11, a cycle or "circuit" always ends in precisely the way it begins. (Mt 10:23) In other words this foretold 2,520 year period of foreign "exile" began with a "fall" of Jehovah's nation that was simultaneously spiritual AND literal. And this is the case even if the actual physical destruction that was now immanent from Jehovah would be experienced several years or even several decades later. (Jer 1:3) (Re 17:10) Compare (2 Ki 23:31-35) In turn a careful analysis of these verses of Revelation will reveal that just as is the case with a cycle of a week (or "seven times"), this somewhat unique or distinct "fall" would transpire also in connection with the seventh king. How is this so? and why would it be important to understand in the case of the Anglo-American world power we are currently considering here?

In both cases or otherwise the first and the last connected with these "seven times," the act of spiritual unfaithfulness that Jehovah actually recognized as finally and fully breaking his holy covenant was actually COMPRISED of handing over divinely granted power and authority to a completely different nation. This was not a matter of something like the divinely ordained rulers or "holy ones" of the "household of Caesar" gradually being moved by "smooth words" to recognize Caesar as their ONLY king at the expense of Jehovah, such as occurred with the first foretold manifestation of the Roman world power. (Php 4:22) (Joh 19:15) (Da 11:30-32) It should be clear that under these rather unusual circumstances associated with both the beginning and the end of these "gentile times," even a LITERAL "fall" has occurred right along with a spiritual one. This is because even if not one single person has at this point suffered military defeat or physical destruction, even what WAS Jehovah's nation has IMMEDIATELY ceased to exist as a world ruler ALTOGETHER!

Are we beginning to realize we basically do not even NEED the 2,520 year calculation Jehovah lovingly furnished us for these "gentile times" in order to determine exactly when this period of foreign "exile" would come to a completion? Yes these "appointed times of the nations" experienced their conclusion the moment that the Anglo-American world power handed their authority and power over to the League of Nations, and this is regardless of exactly when this betrayal of Jehovah was openly announced to the public. (Lu 21:24) Therefore in the end, all this arguing and debating over the scriptural authenticity of the 2,520 year calculation that Jeremiah identified as beginning with the reign of King Jehoiakim is basically a moot point. (Jer 1:3) The moment we actually begin paying more attention to the scriptures than mere "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine," we will come to realize this number of "1,260" and the calculating formula the scriptures supply to it serves basically as just a confirmation of a rather self-evident reality. (Mt 15:9) (Isa 8:20) (Ge 40:8) (Da 2:28) In fact the moment we come to simply recognize exactly what it is we are intended to be counting in connection with these "seven times" or "seven kings" in the first place, does this all not really boil down to basically knowing how to count to seven?

But are we already beginning to better understand how this information should help us pinpoint exactly where we currently are in connection with this foretold sequence of "seven kings" (ultimately "eight" of course) pictured prophetically for us also here in Revelation? and by extension where exactly we stand in relation to the long anticipated Millennial Reign? (Re 17:10, 11)

Well rest assured it is no coincidence that soon after we read of a kind of "fall" of this sixth "king" or world power there in Revelation 11:13, we shortly thereafter find ourselves considering another "trumpet blast" (verse 15) with its corresponding representation of a "birth" of yet another divinely authorized form of ruling authority and power; one which is ALWAYS "reaped" or "harvested" to the heavens in order to "inaugurate" another holy marriage covenant. (Re 11:15 12:5 14:15, 16 20:6) (He 9:16-18) (Lu 22:28, 29) We want to bear in mind however that while the entire history of Jehovah's nation in the setting of this foretold foreign "exile" reveals that it was NEVER more than merely a few decades before it would violate the holy law covenant, (and thus become the "man of lawLESSness"), in the case of this "seventh king" its forfeiture of divine power and authority was always foretold to occur almost immediately. (Jer 1:3) (Lu 21:24) (Re 17:10) (Ro 13:10) (2 Th 2:3)

It should come as no surprise to us therefore that no sooner do we read of this seventh "birth" here in Revelation 12, we immediately find ourselves considering everything that is always associated with a spiritual DEATH of Jehovah's nation. (Re 12:6-14) On this occasion however, two additional and rather pivotal events were foretold to occur that what would make things even much worse for mankind in connection with this spiritual "fall." These events not only serve as a confirmation of something the prophet Daniel had foretold millenniums beforehand there at Daniel 7:12, but also something that would now make the "great tribulation" or "pangs of distress" associated with the FINAL foretold "birth" of Jehovah's nation (the Millennial Reign of course) unusually tremendous. (Mt 24:21, 22) (1 Th 5:1-3) But what exactly were these pivotal events, and how should coming to better understand them assist us with pinpointing the exact time frame we currently find ourselves in? Jehovah willing my intention is to pick up the discussion with these questions beginning with my next post.

Agape love;
Sol