Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#111 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 months ago

Revelation – Where we are in the Stream of Time

Who Are the Holy People of Dan 12:7​?

It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and half a time. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the holy people to pieces all these things will have come to a finish, (Dan12:7). Who are these holy people?

The Heb. noun for holy is 6944. qodesh
qodesh: apartness, sacredness
Original Word: קֹדֶשׁ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: qodesh
Phonetic Spelling: (ko'-desh)
Definition: apartness, sacredness

It comes from the verb, 6942. qadash
qadash: to be set apart or consecrated
Original Word: קָדַשׁ
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: qadash
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-dash')
Definition: to be set apart or consecrated


Does that mean that the holy people of Dan 12:7 are those in the accepted religious sense of the word? No, not necessarily, see Ex 3:5, where the noun qodesh/holy occurs for a portion of ground. And Ex 13:2 where the verb qadash/holy is used for the firstborn of humans and animals. So it refers to a place, humans, animals, or anything that has been ' set apart' by God for his purpose.

At Daniel 12:3 after saying that during the time of the end many would wake up, some to indefinitely lasting life and some to everlasting abhorrence, it then says: "And the ones having insight will shine with the brightness of the expanse and like the stars to time indefinite, even forever. As for you Daniel seal up the book, make secret the words until the time of the end. Many will rove about and knowledge will become abundant, (Dan 12:4).

So who are the 'many' that rove about? And what is this knowledge? The knowledge referred to is that which is contained in the book of Daniel. Is this of a religious nature or is it political?

At the time Daniel wrote this book there was no such distinction, worship of God and politics went hand in hand. Today there is a clear distinction. But the book of Daniel is clearly of a political nature. And so the ones roving about who shine like brightness of the expanse, and spread knowledge abroad so that it becomes abundant, are those who shed a light on the real political situation in the time of the end, (Dan 11:40;12:1,3,4). This does not include journalists who toe the line of commercial news outlets and who must dance to the tune of the piper who pays their wages. But it refers to those independent journalists and former workers in the system who publish the misdeeds of the ruling authority. See post 103, here. Their ability to speak freely has been under attack for some time now. Information Clearinghouse is a platform where independent journalists, not beholden to commercial interests, published their material; their last articles were dated the 16th of March 2022, (see Information Clearinghouse ). The site disappeared from the net after this. From memory, it came out once a month so the exact date of its shutting down is unknown. Here Wikispooks, gives background information. If you click on the interactive chart you will see some of the secrets uncovered by journalists who have contributed to the Clearinghouse site from its inception in 2001, (cf Mt10:26).

At Dan 12:7 is says concerning ones that stick their necks out just to get the information out there ...An as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things, the political manoeuvring, war mongering etc. as at Dan 11:40-45, will come to their finish.

The last articles published are dated Mar 16th, 2022. I would imagine that after the start of Putin's incursion into Ukraine on the 24th of Feb. 2022, see When did the Ukraine War Begin - Counterpunch, all independent News sources would have been compromised in one way or another. Counterpunch contains some relevant information but it is published mainly for an American audience. If the activity of Information Clearing House, which from memory was published monthly, went off-line a week or two after the 16th of Mar 2022. Then the timing of this event has real significance for all peoples of the earth.

At Dan 12:11,12 it says: ..." when the constant feature has been removed and there has been the placing of the disgusting thing, there will be one thousand two hundred and sixty days. Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." Using this time calculator, https://www.calculator.net/date-calcula ... btractdate, if you add 1260 and 1335 days of Dan 12:11,12 to 16th of March 2022 you arrive at Wed. 27th Aug. 2025, and Mon. 10th Nov 2025 respectively. See WT's biblical calender below. The actual date the Information Clearinghouse site ceased to exist is unknown, but it would have been at a specific date before the publication of the next issue.

Image (added text and arrow mine)

In post 105 I discussed Haggai's prophecy and the importance of the 24th day of the ninth month, Chislev. On the twenty-first day of the seventh month, Jehovah's message to the feminine Zerubbabel says: ... Now be strong Zerubbabel and be strong Joshua/Yehoshuah son of Jehozodak, [Jehovah is Righteous]. Two entities are mentioned here. The feminine Zerrubbabel (scorching confusion) of Zech 4:8 whose hands laid the foundation of the house and whose hands will finish it, and Joshua/Yehoshua, son of Jehovah is Righteous, which includes Yehoshuah's companions, as at Zech 3:1,3,8, see post 105, here.

And be strong all you people of the earth, is the utterance of Jehovah, and work. For I am with you people, is the utterance of Jehovah of Armies, (Hag 2:4 b).

The word I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt, [you here refers to Haggai's people and the covenant he made with them, see De 11:8-13,21 & De 28:20,45,46]. So my spirit stands firm among you, (the you here refers to the people of the earth, as at [Hag 2:4b] to whom this prophecy is addressed).

Do not be afraid...Yet once more - it is a little while - and I am rocking the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry ground, [as at Gen 7:22]. And I will rock the nations and the desirable things of the nations must come in and I will fill the house with glory, Jehovah of Armies has said, (Hag 2:6,7).

This second rocking of the heavens and the earth and sea refers to the great tribulation. The first rocking of the heavens and earth and the sea and the dry ground occurred at the time of the flood in Noah's day, (cf. Ps 104:6,7,8). Concerning this second rocking, Jesus said: For then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved,(Mt 24:21). So those to whom God's word's via Haggai are addressed are the people of the earth at the time he again rocks the heavens, the earth, the sea, and dry ground. If my supposition concerning the date when the holy people's power is smashed to pieces is correct, then this can't be far off.

Greater will the glory of this later house become than that of the former, (Hag 2:9). This does not refer to the temple in Jerusalem, Jehovah does not live in hand-made temples, Acts 17:24), the heavens are his throne and the earth is his footstool, (Isa 66:1). And in this place I will give peace is the utterance of Jehovah of Armies, (Hag 2:9).
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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#112 Post by coccus ilicis » 2 months ago

Haggai's Mountain - Continued from post 111 above

At Hag 1:7,8 Jehovah says in reference to Haggai's people …Set your heart upon your ways. Go up to the mountain and you must bring in lumber and build the house that I might take pleasure in. Note mountain is singular.

Image (highlights, strikethrough & arrows mine)

As already discussed in post 105, here, This refers to Haggai's people in our day. So where is this mountain from which they are to get lumber in order to build the house that Jehovah could take pleasure in?

Moses spoke face to face with Jehovah on Mount Sinai, (Ex 31:18;33:11).
At Isa 2:2 it says concerning Judah and Jerusalem ...And it must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills ...many peoples would say come you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah ...and he will instruct us about his ways, (Isa 2:3).

The spirit had led Jesus into the wilderness where he was tempted by the Devil. Then the Devil took him onto an unusually high mountain and offered him rulership of all the kingdoms of the world. When Jesus refused to be tempted the devil leaves him and the angels began to minister to him. It was after this that he knew what he had to do and chose the apostles, (Mt 4:8,11,18-22).

Later, after his forbidding the disciples from calling him Christ, Jesus had told them he was going to be killed and Peter had objected, saying that would not happen. At that time Jesus had severely reprimanded Peter calling him a Satan, and told him he was thinking man's thoughts and not those of God. He had then taken him, James and John, into a lofty mountain by themselves, where they had a heavenly vision of him together with Moses and Elijah to help them understand this was not about earthly matters but heavenly ones and to prepare them for what lay ahead, (Mt 16:15,16,20, 21,22,23,24,25; 17:2-6).

And at Jhn 6:15 when a crowd exceeding six thousand people were determined to make him king in fulfilment of Ps 2:2,6, he withdrew again into the mountain all alone. After which he gave that amazing discourse that made all of them, except his apostles, walk away in disgust, (Jhn 6:10,15-26, 27,60,66,67,68). He had been given the exact words he was to speak to this mob that was determined to make him king in that mountain, (cf. Jhn 12:48, 49,50).

Therefore, when Jehovah says to Haggai's people: …Set your heart upon your ways. Go up to the mountain and you must bring in lumber and build a house that I might take pleasure in. He is not talking about rebuilding the physical temple in Jerusalem as believed by many today, including all those who have sought to completely expunge his name from memory.



No, Haggai's prophecy is not about a temple built by man for his own glory. He is telling us to go up the mountain of Jehovah and be instructed in his ways so that we may know how to deal with the current situation and that which is to come. So that we will have the courage, strength and ability to work at building a house that Jehovah can take pleasure in. The Bible is the mountain where we find suitable lumber. Unlike those in the video above we cannot just pick up scraps of wood from scripture that we then use to support our own vision of a temple. The house that Jehovah can take pleasure in must be in agreement with all that he has said in scripture, and that means making a distinction between the words of men and God's word.

Even as Paul wrote to Timothy, at 2Tim3:14-17, saying: You, however, continue in the things you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from what persons you learned them. This referred to the teaching of Jesus which at that time had not been written down but had been transmitted orally, (cf. Lu 1:4). And from infancy, you have known the holy writings, [the OT writings/scripture], which are able to make you wise for salvation through the faith in connection with Christ Jesus. All writings [scripture] are inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, and setting things straight. That means all that is written in the Bible is there because God purposed it to be there. But it does not mean that all that is said in the Bible are the words of God, i.e. There is no Jehovah, (Ps 14:1); Skin in behalf of skin and everything a man has he will give in behalf of his soul, (Jb 2:4); You are the Christ, son of the living God, (Mt 16:17; cf Mt 16:20); Young children it is the last hour, just as you heard that it was said that the antichrist is coming, even now there are many antichrists from which we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour, (1Jhn 2:18). Not one of these sound-bites is the word of God, and yet they have been included in scripture ...for teaching, for reproving and for setting things straight that the man of God may be fully competent and completely equipped for every good work.

Now is the time when we need to Go up into the mountain of Jehovah and you must bring in lumber. And build me a house that I might take pleasure in it and be glorified ... Be strong you people of the earth, is the utterance of Jehovah, and work, (Hag 1:8: 2:4b).
LRW~

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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#113 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

How far along is the building of Jehovah's house

Jehovah has said, The heavens are my throne, the earth is my footstool. Where then is the house you people can build for me?
Where then is the place as a resting place for me?
, (Isa 66:1) In post 112 above I said:
Haggai's prophecy is not about a temple built by man for his own glory. He is telling us to go up the mountain of Jehovah and be instructed in his ways so that we may know how to deal with the current situation and that which is to come. So that we will have the courage, strength and ability to work at building a house that Jehovah can take pleasure in
In order to build that resting place for Jehovah, we must look to his word and see what he requires. And as I said in the post above we must make a distinction between God's words and the words of others, and that includes my words. In applying prophecy I too can get it wrong even as others have done. But, I am not alone in thinking we are living in epoch-changing times.

We read in a recent article on the temple building project in Jerusalem: Israelis Call For Rebuilding Their Temple and Returning to Animal Sacrifices - April 27, 2022. Since 1948 when Israel miraculously became a nation again after some 1900+ years of being scattered around the earth, the United States has been her only true ally. ... We came to her aid in her War of Independence in 1948, the Six Day War in 1967 and the Yom Kippur War of 1973. Each time God allowed her to overcome almost impossible odds ... Most Israelis admit that if it weren’t for the military support of the United States, Israel would not be a nation today. And Israel is openly and profoundly grateful for our help. Revelation describes the US as a beast with two horns like a lamb that began speaking like a dragon. So it is a political entity that becomes the dragon's mouthpiece, (Rev 13:11). As such it championed Israel, causing it to rise out of the abyss - healing its death-stroke, (Rev 13:12 3). It also conned the world into making an image of Israel's trading practices, where only those who obey its rules can buy and sell. Anyone who doesn't is shut out of the market.

The two lamb-like horns represent the US and the UK supposedly Christian countries, this is where the throne of the elite running the show is situated. To counter this Satanic plan for the earth God pours out seven bowls of his anger ...And the fifth one pours out his bowl onto the throne of the beast [the Anglo/American beast], and its kingdom has been darkening and they gnaw on their tongues in their distress, (Rev 16:10). That Bidden has reversed Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital is evidence of their current turmoil. For the first time since the Balfour declaration of 1917 they are at odds on the issue of Israel.

It must be remembered that for these elite, the harlot, it's not about national loyalties at all but it's always about trade and controlling the flow of money, (Rev 13:14,15,16,17; 18:7,8,9,10,11).
US Dollar Fiat Currency or Oil Backed Currency What the powerful men grouped around the Bilderberg had evidently decided that May [1973] was to launch a colossal assault against industrial growth in the world, in order to tilt the balance of power back to the advantage of Anglo-American financial interests and the dollar. In order to do this, they determined to use their most prized weapon — control of the world's oil flows. … Never in history had such a small circle of interests, centred in London and New York, controlled so much of the entire world's economic destiny. The Anglo-American financial establishment had resolved to use their oil power in a manner no one could have imagined possible. The very outrageousness of their scheme was to their advantage. All wars it has engaged in since that have been to keep control over the flow of oil and money.

And it appears that money is a sensitive subject for the harlot as the video I posted post 94 page 10 of this thread has been withdrawn. Here is another video on this sensitive subject, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P02GtDoqkJQ. Watch it by all means while you can, the presenter is outspoken and entertaining. But just in case it is also withdrawn, here are relevant clips from the video.
Image
Image

To recap, the 7-headed beast of Rev 13 is a political beast. But its rider the harlot is primarily concerned with money and trade (Rev 18:7,11). It was at her behest that the image of the beast, with its trade agreements and sanctions, was created, (Rev 13:14,15,17). It's not about politics at all, but about money and who controls it. The Different groups - i.e. G6, G7, G8 that hammer out financial procedures, meet annually where proposed protocols are discussed and implemented.

The Group of Eight G8 was an inter-governmental political forum from 1997 until 2014 ...The summit came to be known as the Group of Seven G7 in 1976 with the addition of Canada. Russia was added to the political forum in 1997, which the following year became known as the G8, see RH snip below. Russia and China were part of the financial system where the value of each currency was based on the US dollar. In practice that meant that the cost of anything one country bought from another was converted first to the USD and then to the currency of that country, and oil could only be purchased with US dollars. The US dollars like any other commodity had to be bought. Which meant that non-US dollar countries had to keep a stash of US dollars on hand. And it also meant the US dollar remained the dominant currency because it was a product all countries needed. A neat system that kept the American economy afloat.

Image
In March 2014 Russia was suspended indefinitely following the annexation of Crimea, whereupon the political forum reverted to G7.
... In 2017
, Russia announced its permanent withdrawal from the G8
, Wikipedia. That means Russia wouldn't go back even if it were invited.

On the 25TH Anniversary edition of the St. Peterburg International Economic Forum. The SPIEF, at one time in cahoots with the Bilderberg/WEF Group as shown in the RH snip above, announced the financial protocols that would form its own group of 8 or G8. The St. Petersburg International Economic Forum has been configured for years now as absolutely essential to understand the evolving dynamics and the trials and tribulations of Eurasia integration. ...First, the coming of the “new G8” – four BRICS nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China), plus Iran, Indonesia, Turkey and Mexico, whose GDP per purchasing parity power(PPP) already dwarfs the old, Western-dominated G8... Second, the Chinese “Three Rings” strategy of developing geoeconomic relations with its neighbours and partners...Third, the development of BRICS+, or extended BRICS, including some members of the “new G8,” to be discussed at the upcoming summit in China

The ‘New G8’ Meets China’s ‘Three Rings’ - June 15, 2022
Image
One can see at a glance why this new G8 is such a threat to the elites running the show. All who have until now shopped at the only market in town, now have a choice, they can shop at whichever market offers the best deal. If those countries then dump their US dollar stash in exchange for the new G8 currencies, the USD will collapse - lose all its purchasing power. As happened in Germany after WW1 when the saying was that one needed a barrel full of Deutsch marks just to buy a pound of butter.

This is what the two-horned lamb-like beast fears. It is losing its credibility and darkness is enshrouding its kingdom. The harlot has read the writing on the wall, her beast is enfeebled and about to collapse. What will she do? And what yet needs to be done before the house that Jehovah can take pleasure in can be completed?
LRW~

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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#114 Post by Get out of her » 1 month ago

CI wrote:
Revelation describes the US as a beast with two horns like a lamb that began speaking like a dragon.
I'm aware that the Watchtower organization presents this understanding of the two horned wild beast of Revelation 13. What I am curious about here LRW is exactly why YOU would promote it? You and I both know that a teaching is not necessarily unscriptural simply because a particular religious group advocates for it. Nevertheless the fact is I have never witnessed ANYONE actually use the scriptures along with sound reasoning to establish the above viewpoint as resting on a solid scriptural foundation. (Ro 12:1) (Ac 17:11) Perhaps you have actually made an effort to do so in an earlier post that I have not yet read. If so perhaps you wouldn't mind drawing my attention to it. Otherwise I would suggest in advance that the FIRST problem I see with this position is it presents a serious conflict with the time frame or place in the "stream of time" you are endeavoring to place us in at the moment in relation to scriptural prophecy.

I'll admit this is the first post I have read so far under this thread. (Post #113) So please be a bit patient with me if that turns out to be part of the problem here. Regardless I hope you don't mind if I ask you to please produce some evidence for your position on this which I could even begin to recognize as compelling.

Agape love;
Sol

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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#115 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Get out of her wrote: 1 month ago CI wrote:
Revelation describes the US as a beast with two horns like a lamb that began speaking like a dragon.
I'm aware that the Watchtower organization presents this understanding of the two horned wild beast of Revelation 13. What I am curious about here LRW is exactly why YOU would promote it? You and I both know that a teaching is not necessarily unscriptural simply because a particular religious group advocates for it. Nevertheless the fact is I have never witnessed ANYONE actually use the scriptures along with sound reasoning to establish the above viewpoint as resting on a solid scriptural foundation. (Ro 12:1) (Ac 17:11) Perhaps you have actually made an effort to do so in an earlier post that I have not yet read. If so perhaps you wouldn't mind drawing my attention to it. Otherwise I would suggest in advance that the FIRST problem I see with this position is it presents a serious conflict with the time frame or place in the "stream of time" you are endeavoring to place us in at the moment in relation to scriptural prophecy.

I'll admit this is the first post I have read so far under this thread. (Post #113) So please be a bit patient with me if that turns out to be part of the problem here. Regardless I hope you don't mind if I ask you to please produce some evidence for your position on this which I could even begin to recognize as compelling.

Agape love;
Sol
Hello Sol,
Thank you for asking. I wasn't aware that that is what the WT teaches, I haven't read any of their material published after I left in 2001. Since the subject is mainly covered in threads dealing with Revelation it is worthwhile to go over the subject again for any new readers.

We know from Dan 7:1-8,17,23,14 that the beast of Rev 13:1,2 is made up of body parts of these beasts. Each head is a beast in its own right. The 10 horns and crowns symbolize individual ruling entities. The number ten is symbolic but serves prophetic purposes for identifying the 8th king/beast which is the final one, see Dan 7:7,8,11,12,13,14. Rev 13:1,2 is what the conglomerate beast looked like in 1948.

Revelation then homes in on one of the heads/beasts ... and I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth marvels at the beast. This slaughtered healed head/beast is identified in Revelation chapter 17, where John sees Babylon the Great, riding a beast that was very similar to the Rev 13:1,2 beast, but it is a description of how it looked late in the first century. When he asked about that beast he is told: Why is it you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of this woman and of the beast that is carrying her, which has seven heads and ten horns. The wild beast that you see, is ,and is not, and is about to ascend out of the abyss; the abyss signifying death as at Rom 10:7. But after it is raised it goes off into destruction. And those dwelling on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation, will marvel .

In the first century, this head/beast had been but was not. It no longer existed as a nation, but only as a scattered people. It ascended out of the abyss in 1947/48 when it was granted Palestine for a homeland.

John is told that the seven heads represent seven mountains where the woman sits on top. And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one is, [the Roman Empire], and one is still to come [the Anglo/American colonial two-horned beast] and when he shall have come he must remain a little while, (Rev 17:9,10). The messenger then focuses on the slaughtered head/beast of Rev 17:8, saying: And the beast that is but is not, is also itself an eighth [king] but springs from the seven and goes off into destruction.. The 'springs from the seven' refers to the UN mandate that brought the nation-state of Israel into existence. How did they manage this, since they were not part of the UN? It was at America's behest, see, Israelis Call For Rebuilding Their Temple and Returning to Animal Sacrifices - April 27, 2022.

How did the Anglo/American two-horned lamb-like beast manage to persuade all the others to vote the nation-state of Israel into existence? What happened after America came off victorious from WW2 is described thus: And it exercises all authority in the face of the first beast, [of Rev 1:1,2]. And it makes the earth and those dwelling in it worship or pay homage to the beast/head whose death-stroke gets healed. And it performs great signs so that it even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of men, (Rev 13:12,13). It did this when it dropped the first atom bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima

Image

After dropping the bombs the people worshipped, or submitted to the two-horned beast saying: Who is like the beast and who can do battle with it (Rev 13:4). And it used this window of opportunity caused by the signs that are given it to do, to con the people into making an image of the beast whose death stroke got healed, (Rev 13:14). This image is a copy of the crony trading that had existed amongst Jews from early times. The only ones they traded with were Jews, any others had to abide by their rules or be locked out of the marketplace,
e.g. this matchbox, Boycott of Jan 1933. Image
It was a tried and true trading practice that had served them well since at least the 6th century BC,see Jewish Traders of the Diaspora.

America's head start didn't last long as the USSR also got nuclear weapons, and we had the madness of the arms race. Then they signed the MAD agreement. Mad indeed, because MAD stands for 'Mutual Assured Destruction agreement.' The pushing and shoving of the cold war is described at Dan 11:40 as being between the king of the north and the king of the south. it must be remembered that they didn't picture the earth as a globe in those days, so north is west and south is east. The West won and flooded over into the listed nations, (Dan 11:41, 42,43) for details see post 20,here.

Egypt has only just pulled free. It says: But there will be reports that will disturb him [the king of the west], out of the sun rising [China] and out of the north, [Russia] and he will go forth in a great rage in order to devote many to destruction. Although a permanent member with veto rights of the UN security council, Russia has been barred since 2014. And in 2017 said it would not return. Thus Russia is currently not a member of the UN. At Dan 11:45 it says concerning the king of the west, America, that when he places his weapon systems between the seas and the mountain of decoration, he will have come all the way to his finish, and there will be none to help him, (Dan 11: 44,45). For details see post 70, here

And it says concerning the formation of the last beast, (Rev 17:12) And the ten horns that you see mean ten kings that have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the beast, [the G7 beast, the one the harlot currently rides]. Fulfilment of this is imminent, it corresponds to Dan 7:7,8,11,12,13,14. The formation of this 5th and final beast will of necessity include the current G 8, see post 113 above.
LRW~

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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#116 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Continuing from post 115 above.
A little more needs to be said about the use of 'North' and 'South' and the 'horn' of beasts' in the book of Daniel,

What comes to mind when one hears North or South, is a map with a compass pointing north and south. Not so for people living in the 7th century BC. They didn't use maps.
Here is a picture of the earliest world map:
Image

The Hebrew word for north is 6828. tsaphon which comes from 6845. tsaphan -to hide, As a babe, Moses was hidden in an ark, Ex 2:2. North is also referred to as the meeting place of Gods, (Isa 14:13).

South is the negeb, from an unused root meaning to be parched. in the book of Job the icy cold of winter is in juxtaposition with summer in the south, compare Job 37:9,10, to Job 37:17,18. Therefore north and south in Daniel chapter 11 refers to kings being in opposition to one another, just as summer and winter are opposite extremes.

East and West are where the sun rises and sets. The Heb. word for 'west,' as at Dan 8:4, is the sea, the Mediterranean or Red Sea, as at Hos 11:10.

One Heb. word rendered East in English is 6924. qedem which comes from the root 6923. qadam - to come or be in front as at Gen 2:8. The other Heb word is 4217. mizrach - place of sunrise, as at Dan 11:44.

Bibles have not been consistent in rendering it rising of the sun as at Isa 41:25 and Dan 11:44; see snip below:
Image

So at Gen 2:8, east is 'in front of.' And at Isa 41:25 and Dan 11:44 it is the 'rising of the sun,' which is self-explanatory.

A beast uses its horns to fight, e.g Dan 8:3, 5,6. The horns of the political entities of Daniel and Revelation i.e. Dan 7:7,8 & Rev 13:1,11;17:3 refer to the armies they have at their disposal. Standing full-time armies first came on the stage at Sparta
The Spartan army stood at the centre of the Spartan state; citizens trained in the disciplines and honor of a warrior society ...From c. 750 BC, Sparta embarked on a steady expansion, first by subduing Amyclae and the other Laconian settlements. Later, during the First Messenian War, they conquered the fertile country of Messenia. By the beginning of the 7th century BC, Sparta was, along with Argos, the Peloponnese's dominant power Wikipedia.

It looks more complicated than it is or needs to be. All one has to do is go back in time and see the events through the eyes of a bystander and understand what they understood at that time.
LRW~

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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#117 Post by Get out of her » 1 month ago

CI wrote:
We know from Dan 7:1-8,17,23,14 that the beast of Rev 13:1,2 is made up of body parts of these beasts.
I would assume you mean to say specifically the "fourth wild beast" (and specifically its "horns") since it not only is the last of the four in this sequence found there at Daniel Chapter 7, but also is the only one foretold to continue producing newly emerging "horns" all the way to …"the time of the end"… according to verse 17 of Daniel Chapter 7. (Da 7:17)
Each head is a beast in its own right.
I see every reason to recognize this statement as accurate and scriptural, with accounts like Daniel 2:36-45 and Revelation 17:10 serving as confirmation of this.

While Daniel Chapter 2 AND 7 make it clear that all the world powers that would emerge between the time of the "fourth wild beast" and the "time of the end" would ultimately prove to be new manifestations of this same "fourth wild beast," (The Roman world power), Revelation 17:10, Daniel 7:8 and even many other scriptures like Jeremiah 15:9 begin directing our attention towards the specific NUMBER of world powers that would follow this "fourth wild beast" prior to the Millennial Reign. When we now factor in verse 11 of Revelation 17 into the equation and compare it with verse 8 of Daniel Chapter seven, we find confirmation that there would ultimately be four world powers that would appear on the earth after the emergence of this "fourth wild beast," or otherwise a total of "eight kings." The reason the scriptures (on the whole at least) are much more focused on the initial seven however is because they fall into the time period identified as "the appointed times of the nations." (Lu 21:24) (Da 4:23, 32) This is the time frame that is distinguished as when God's people would continue finding themselves in a situation of foreign "exile" and "captivity." (Jer 1:3)

In other words, unlike the initial seven, this "eighth king" would never enter into a covenant relationship with Jehovah, or otherwise never come to include kings that would qualify as "anointed shepherds" of Jehovah's people until the moment they violate his "holy covenant" and consequently suffer being destroyed and replaced eventually with a new world power. (Isa 44:28 45:1) (Da 11:30-32) Therefore since this mere "IMAGE of the wild beast" (like a kind of mere hollow reflection of it that nonetheless receives false worship also as an IDOLATROUS image?) never actually experiences a spiritual BIRTH, it by extension is never in a position to experience a spiritual DEATH. (Re 13:12) It is only ever in a position to experience a LITERAL death or destruction, thus it is set apart or distinguished from the "seven" foretold "births of the (figurative) "barren woman" that would unfold beginning with the year of "exile" that Jeremiah identifies in the opening words of his book. (609 BCE or otherwise the year "King Jehoiakim" began his reign) (Jer 1:3 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5) (Isa 54:1-4)

The account there at Daniel 7:12 helps us to understand that this final "8th king" is distinct also in the sense that it loses even the authority that was granted satan in the Garden of Eden when our fore-bearers chose him as their god or father over Jehovah. (Lu 4:5-7) But what is important to understand here is that this authority granted to satan (this "authority" of the "dragon" mentioned in accounts like Revelation 13:2) is NEVER utilized by these initial "seven kings" until they violate the holy kingdom covenant with spiritual "harlotry." (Isa 1:21) This is the moment when the substitution or exchange of power and authority mentioned in accounts like Daniel 11:31 or 2 Thessalonians 2:4 takes place in Jehovah's "sanctuary" or earthly "temple." (1 Cor 3:16, 17 6:15) Another way of wording this would be to say that with this tragic turn of events, the very positive things in connection with these "seven kings" or "beasts" covered in passages like the symbolic language of Daniel 4:20-22 and 7:4 now unfold in reverse order, and this is the case with ALL of these "seven kings" or world powers. The moment we come to grasp very key points such as this, we suddenly find ourselves in a position to begin genuinely comprehending what is being conveyed in scriptural statements like the following:


"The wild beast that you saw WAS, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction." (Re 17:8a)

"And there are seven kings, five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived,…" (Re 17:10)


We want to bear information like this in mind since as I will shortly demonstrate, it will soon prove very useful in actually understanding some of the issues you soon bring up here in your comments.
The 10 horns and crowns symbolize individual ruling entities. The number ten is symbolic but serves prophetic purposes for identifying the 8th king/beast which is the final one,
This is where you begin to lose me. What is it exactly about the scriptures you cite here that you could recognize as even beginning to support your claims in this case? For one thing there are at least three different "wild beasts" found in the scriptures in very different time frames that are pictured with these same "ten horns." (Da 7:7) (Re 13:1 17:3) Would this alone not already begin to present problems with the notion of them serving specifically or exclusively (as you say) "to prophetically identify the 8th king/beast which is the final one…"
see Dan 7:7,8,11,12,13,14. Rev 13:1,2 is what the conglomerate beast looked like in 1948.
The question I would pose to you here is—why exactly would you mention the year 1948 in connection with all this? Yes I realize that this year figures in prominently when it comes to "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine;" but can you direct our attention to any SCRIPTURES that would point to this year for any reason at all? (Mt 15:9) (Isa 8:20)
Revelation then homes in on one of the heads/beasts ... and I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth marvels at the beast. This slaughtered healed head/beast is identified in Revelation chapter 17, where John sees Babylon the Great, riding a beast that was very similar to the Rev 13:1,2 beast, but it is a description of how it looked late in the first century.
As I continue to demonstrate with the scriptures, we have all been heavily conditioned to overlook a very significant distinction between "Babylon the Great" and the "Great Harlot," and this continues to cause an incredible amount of confusion just as it is intended to. Babylon the Great obviously does not qualify as a "Great Harlot" when it is being ruled over by ones like the prophet Daniel and his three Hebrew companions, or "anointed shepherds" like "King Cyrus" of the Medo-Persian Empire along with Jews like Queen Esther and her uncle Mordecai. (Da 2:47-49) (Isa 44:28, 45:1) The "Great Harlot" clearly does not involve "holy ones" right among the "household of Caesar" who are all too eager to send their love and "greetings" to Christian congregations such as the Philippian one around the year of 60 CE. (Php 4:22) Just as indicated by scriptures like Revelation 17:10 or 18:2, it is only when these divinely appointed world powers experience the spiritual "fall" that is defined for us in accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 or 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 that they suddenly qualify as a kind of "Great Harlot" or even "disgusting thing." Compare (1 Joh 2:18) (Isa 1:21) (La 1:1, 4)

In other words, John does not actually (as you say) "see Babylon the Great riding a beast…" but rather a version of it that has resulted from yet another spiritual "fall." This broken holy marriage covenant always assigns a new identity to Babylon the Great which on this occasion is represented with a MUCH LONGER NAME. (Re 17:5) The spiritual adultery involved in violating the holy marriage covenant now qualifies this entity more specifically as precisely what John states in verse 5 of Revelation 17. As opposed to simply "Babylon the Great" which Jehovah actually becomes ANGRY for other ones taking credit for, (Da 4:29-32), we suddenly find a rather different name being assigned to this final foretold "wild beast" pictured there in Revelation 17. Moreover we can be certain it is no coincidence that this turn of events is represented as unfolding immediately after yet another "conquering" or spiritual death of Jehovah's "holy ones" is mentioned at Revelation 13:7. Let's not forget that if anything a LITERAL "killing" of Jehovah's "faithful stewards" or "two witnesses" always constitutes a "conquering" of Jehovah's ENEMIES! (Joh 16:33) While the designation of the "son of destruction" or "disgusting thing that causes desolation" is obviously touched on here in this case," (or otherwise a couple of the terms often utilized to point to this same "man of lawlessness" or "antichrist" phenomenon), the name the apostle John assigns to what is once again a very "harlotrous" entity found in Revelation 17 actually goes as follows:


…"Babylon the Great, the mother of the HARLOTS and the DISGUSTING THINGS of the earth." (Re 17:5)


By including the term "disgusting things" as well as even the notion of "catching sight" of this entity immediately afterwards in verse 6, our attention is being directed towards not only the symbolic spiritual language Jesus utters there at Matthew 24:15 and 16, but also by extension the account there in Daniel Chapter 11:30-32 that he refers to in this case. (Re 12:6) Once again we are brought right back to this issue of Jehovah's appointed shepherds violating his "holy covenant" with spiritual adultery and the "disgusting thing" or even figurative "daughter of Jehovah's people" that is always born from these illicit relations right inside Jehovah's very own "sanctuary." (Eze 23:1-4) (Jer 8:11) (Eze 23:1-4) The account there at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 ALONE confirms that this "holy covenant" that Jesus and John the Baptist were in the process or renewing yet again at that very moment would continue to be broken by "apostasy" on the part of Jehovah's shepherds also on future occasions.

In other words, the remaining three of the "seven kings" foretold for this period of foreign "captivity and exile" also AFTER this "fourth wild beast" would continue to violate the holy covenant that these "two witnesses" (or even "son of man") were yet again renewing and inaugurating at that very moment for the fifth of the "seven" foretold "times." (Eze 2:1) (Da 4:23, 32) This is precisely what accounts for prophesies we find in accounts like Revelation 11:3, 7, 11, 12 or Hebrews 9:26-28. Among the benefits of understanding these things is it suddenly becomes much easier to grasp the time frames being covered in accounts like the ones we are currently considering here in Revelation. My intention is to demonstrate this very thing with your next comments.
"When he asked about that beast he is told: Why is it you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of this woman and of the beast that is carrying her, which has seven heads and ten horns. The wild beast that you see, is ,and is not, and is about to ascend out of the abyss; the abyss signifying death as at Rom 10:7. But after it is raised it goes off into destruction. And those dwelling on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation, will marvel .

In the first century, this head/beast had been but was not. It no longer existed as a nation, but only as a scattered people. It ascended out of the abyss in 1947/48 when it was granted Palestine for a homeland.
John is told that the seven heads represent seven mountains where the woman sits on top. And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one is, [the Roman Empire], and one is still to come [the Anglo/American colonial two-horned beast] and when he shall have come he must remain a little while, (Rev 17:9,10). The messenger then focuses on the slaughtered head/beast of Rev 17:8, saying: And the beast that is but is not, is also itself an eighth [king] but springs from the seven and goes off into destruction.. The 'springs from the seven' refers to the UN mandate that brought the nation-state of Israel into existence. How did they manage this, since they were not part of the UN? It was at America's behest, see, Israelis Call For Rebuilding Their Temple and Returning to Animal Sacrifices - April 27, 2022."
First of all from everything I can see at least, the rendering or translation of Revelation 17:8 you are using in this case is only contributing to what I recognize personally as confusion here on your part. This is one of the most key scriptures in Revelation because it serves to establish not only exactly where the situation with God's nation at the end of the first century fits into the bigger picture here with this sequence of "seven kings," but also by extension establishes a reference point for the time frames of the "seven kings" and their corresponding "falls" that would manifest themselves both prior to this time (the end of the first century in this case) as well as afterwards. All the more reason therefore to make sure we are dealing with an accurate translation of this scripture.
"The wild beast that you see, is , and is not,"
Since the Greek word here immediately after the word –"see" (evidently more accurately translated as –saw rather than –see) is apparently –itan, and itan literally means-- WAS or even --IT was, the manner in which this verse is rendered in basically EVERY English translation other than the one you chose here seems to make much more sense. This would be very much like the following:


"The wild beast that you saw, it was, but now is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss." (Re 17:8)


Now since at the time that the Apostle John was writing Revelation "five" of these "kings" had already experienced the "fall" being spoken of here, would this information alone not already begin presenting difficulties with some of your assertions here? For example:
And there are seven kings, five are fallen, one is, [the Roman Empire], and one is still to come [the Anglo/American colonial two-horned beast] and when he shall have come he must remain a little while, (Rev 17:9,10).
Since the prophet Daniel explicitly identified the Babylonian world power as the first in this sequence of what would ultimately prove to be "eighth kings" that would exist as world powers prior to the Millennial Reign, and Medo-Persia and Greece obviously followed this first of the "seven kings," would Rome not qualify as the FOURTH world power in this foretold sequence? (Da 2:36-38) Admittedly the scriptures are indicating that ALL of the world powers from the fourth in this sequence to the time of the Millennial Reign would ultimately prove simply as new manifestations of this same "fourth wild beast." Nevertheless do you not already see a problem with asserting that "the Roman Empire" would qualify as the sixth in this sequence with the "Anglo-American" one as the seventh, and particularly since (right in this same verse) even the "FIFTH king" was described as having already experienced this "fall" by the end of the first century?

First of all this line of reasoning is completely overlooking that the British world power both came and went on the earthly scene before the Anglo-American one ever existed. But are you not actually endeavoring to skip over even TWO entire world powers here in this foretold sequence of kings? Perhaps we can begin getting to the bottom of this by considering the following question:

If you are to assert that at the time John was writing Revelation the "Roman World Power" qualified as the "king" identified with the words—"one is" there at Revelation 17:10, then just exactly how would you go about identifying the "fourth" and "fifth" of these "kings" who had already experienced both a rise and "fall" by this time? With that said, since the fact is that Rome actually DID exist as a world power at the time that John penned these words, have we not just now irrefutably confirmed that the "fall" being addressed here in connection with Babylon the Great is NOT a literal one, but rather the figurative or spiritual one defined for us in accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8? Have we not just conclusively established that the "fall" we are dealing with here is the one that always transforms what initially qualifies as a kind of "faithful town" into a great spiritual "prostitute"? (Isa 1:21) (1 Cor 6:15) (Re 17:10 18:2)

The fact is the moment we begin to incorporate things like this into the equation; there are MANY scriptures that suddenly begin to make perfect sense rather than remaining confusing and mysterious to us. These would include ones like Philippians 4:22 and 1 John 2:18. The reason there were "holy ones" right amongst the "household of Caesar" around the year 60 CE is the same reason such ones would ALWAYS serve as world rulers in this period of time identified also as the "appointed times of the nations" or "seven times." (Lu 21:24) (Da 4:23, 32) Just a few decades prior to this, two genuine prophets or "witnesses" of Jehovah had once again appeared on the earth to renew and inaugurate yet another holy kingdom or marriage covenant with a "few" people who were prepared to demonstrate genuine repentance for the PREVIOUS covenant that had yet again been violated with spiritual adultery. (Joh 19:15) (Re 11:3) (Mr 7:7) (Lu 22:28, 29) (He 9:16-18, 26-28) (Mt 3:1, 2 4:17 22:14)

The entire history of Jehovah's nation reveals that there is ALWAYS a rise of a new world power connected with these renewed holy covenants, and even if this new world power is assigned the very same name as the one that preceded it. Aside from taking the lead in restoring true worship to the earth, the first thing these new kings begin to do is render Jehovah's adverse judgments against the former world power and the false form of worship they are still engaged in. This is precisely the reason that the first century historian by the name of Flavius Josephus pointed out that it was an entirely new manifestation of Rome that appeared at Jerusalem in the year 70 CE to finish doing exactly that with all that now remained of the "fourth wild beast." At this point in time it was only a false or apostate form of Judaism that remained. However what a careful and cross referenced analysis of scriptures like 1 John 2:18 and Revelation 17:10 will reveal is that by only two or three decades later the holy kingdom covenant had been violated yet again on the part of Jehovah's newly appointed shepherds. So what the Apostle John is actually doing here in 1 John 2:18 is confirming the very same spiritual "fall" that he had ALREADY attested to in Revelation 17:10. Really then the only question at this point would be with regard to the king John identifies as "ONE IS" in this setting of 96 or so CE? As is always the case, coming to an accurate understanding of this involves heeding the counsel found in accounts like Romans 12:1, Isaiah 8:20 and Ephesians 6:18. Compare (Acts 17:11) (Mt 7:7, 8)

By all means let's endeavor to pick up the discussion with this question beginning with my next post.

Agape love;
Sol

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#118 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Get out of her wrote: 1 month ago CI wrote:
We know from Dan 7:1-8,17,23,14 that the beast of Rev 13:1,2 is made up of body parts of these beasts.
I would assume you mean to say specifically the "fourth wild beast" (and specifically its "horns") since it not only is the last of the four in this sequence found there at Daniel Chapter 7, but also is the only one foretold to continue producing newly emerging "horns" all the way to …"the time of the end"… according to verse 17 of Daniel Chapter 7. (Da 7:17)
Each head is a beast in its own right.
I see every reason to recognize this statement as accurate and scriptural, with accounts like Daniel 2:36-45 and Revelation 17:10 serving as confirmation of this.

While Daniel Chapters 2 AND 7 make it clear that all the world powers that would emerge between the time of the "fourth wild beast" and the "time of the end" would ultimately prove to be new manifestations of this same "fourth wild beast," (The Roman world power),
Agape love;
Sol
Hello Sol

As I have already discussed this with Bobcat I really do not want to go over all this again. The time left is reduced and is too precious to keep going over the same material. As I said in post 116 above:
It looks more complicated than it is or needs to be. All one has to do is go back in time and see the events through the eyes of a bystander and understand what they understood at that time
Daniel received the vision of Dan 7:4-14 in the first year of Belshazzar the last king of Babylon, (Dan 7:1). In explanation of Dan 7:17-27, the angelic personage says: ... "As for these huge beasts, because there are four, there are four kings that will stand up. Will is the operative word here, they stand up after Babylon has fallen.

That means the first beast, Dan 7:4 must be Persia. The next one is Greece, Dan 7:5. The third one, (Dan 7:6), is Rome, which corresponds to the iron legs of Dan 2:40. Rome isn't overthrown but becomes intermingled with moist clay in the feet and toes, Dan 2:41-44. This is the fourth beast of Dan 7:7,19. Note, it says that this beast proved to be different from all the others and that it had claws of copper, [Greece], and teeth of iron, [Rome]. The 4th beast of Dan 7 is a description of emerging democracy as it was during the Reformation. For details of this period see Post #208, here. Benjamin Friedman's 1961 speech has been removed, but can still be listened to here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVlZLDEkqxs. Also see videos about this period in Post #194, #195 & #196, here. The Rev 13:1,2,3 beast describes what this nascent democratic beast looks like after 1948, with the slaughtered healed head included amongst the heads,/beasts.

The beast the harlot rides as at Rev 17:3-8 is what it looked like late in the first century at the time when John saw this vision. Although he would not have understood what the beasts of Revelation chapter 13 were about, he did know that in the first century the beast that was and is not and was about to ascend out of the abyss must refer to the nation-state of Israel. Which at that time was no longer a nation, but a people of the diaspora.

The push to bring Israel out of the abyss began during the reformation. It started as a little insignificant horn that displaced three of the 10 horns of Dan 7:8 making it the 8th horn that corresponds to Rev 17:11. For more detail of what happened at that time, read the book the Nameless War. The book in pdf format can be downloaded free here,The Nameless War by Archibald Ramsay. It is a must-read for anyone that wants to understand today's world. Ramsay, a politician, was jailed during WW2 for publishing the book. He doesn't refer to the Bible but does reveal the identity of the three horns/kings that the little audacious horn displaces and humiliates. (Dan 7:8,11,24). Calculate: 10 horns minus 3 = 7 plus the little audacious horn = 8, which is the horn of Dan 7:24, and is the 8th king of Rev 17:11.

We are now at the time when the 10 kings who have not yet received a kingdom are about to receive authority to rule with this 8th beast for one hour, Rev 17:12.
LRW~

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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#119 Post by Get out of her » 1 month ago

Due to the fact that I am currently entertaining guests for a few weeks, I'm afraid it will continue taking me longer than usual to catch up with replies to all your comments LRW. For the moment my intention is to pick up where I left off a few days ago on this issue of scripturally identifying the "one is" there at Revelation 17:10.

So if we are to first of all "render our sacred service with our power of reason," would it not make perfect sense to consider questions like the following in this case?

In the entire history of these "seven kings" or world powers that would hold Jehovah's people in a condition of foreign "exile" and "captivity" over the course of their existence, do we ever even once find an example of the holy kingdom covenant being renewed with a subsequent world power IMMEDIATELY after the former one has "led" their fellow "anointed shepherds" into "apostasy" by means of "smooth words"? (Da 11:30-32) (Isa 44:28 45:1) Absolutely not! What is more, there are at least two or three things we want to take into consideration here which not only will confirm this, but also serve to identify this- "one is" here at Revelation 17:10.

When it comes to the fifth foretold "birth of the barren woman" that occurred in the early part of the first century, there were a number of things that distinguished it from the previous four. (Jer 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5) On this occasion the renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant that occurred with a ministry of the "two witnesses" or "son of man"/"prophet to the nations"/"faithful steward" etc. and its commensurate emergence of another divinely appointed world power was not distinct simply for the reason that one of these two "inspectors" of "Christ's domestics" or Jesus' "brothers" was a perfect human, or for that matter even the fact that the earth would be dealing with a SPIRITUAL manifestation of Israel (true Christianity) rather than a literal/fleshly one from this time forward. (Re 11:3) (Eze 2:1) (Jer 1:5) (Lu 19:44) (Mt 24:45 25:40) Another thing that made it unique is a phenomenon that began to be "typified" in prophetic/"symbolic dramas" that went at least as far back as with the time of ancient Jacob. (He 8:5) (Ga 4:24) The one I am referring to in this case is found at Genesis 32:6-8:


6 "In time the messengers returned to Jacob saying: "We got to your brother Esau, and he also is on his way to meet you, and 400 men with him." 7 And Jacob grew very much afraid and grew anxious. So he divided the people who were with him, and the flocks and the cattle and the camels into TWO CAMPS. 8 And he said: "If Esau should come to one camp and assault it, then there is certain to be one camp remaining to make an escape." (Ge 32:6-8)


We of course want to think in terms here of what Esau was used to typify or represent in a symbolic and prophetic sense. (Ro 15:4) (He 8:5) (Ga 4:24) While he was actually a BROTHER of Jacob, he nonetheless ultimately proved to be a kind of betrayer and an enemy of both Jacob/Israel and thus the GOD of Israel. (Ge 32:28) In other words Esau was simply another way of picturing the betrayal of the ancient Joseph by his own brothers or otherwise precisely what was represented also with Judas Iscariot in connection with Jesus. ALL of these prophetic dramas were in turn used to symbolize the betrayals or "apostasies" that are addressed in accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 or 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8. Nevertheless (getting back to the account here at Genesis 32:6-8), with the heavenly resurrections that began in 33 CE in connection with what would now be SPIRITUAL Israel, from this time forward Jehovah's holy nation would qualify as the "two camp" entity that is also referred to in the symbolic spiritual language found in accounts like Song of Songs 6:13.

"Come back, come back O Shulammite! Come back that we may behold you!
What do you people behold in the Shulammite?
"Something like the dance of TWO CAMPS." (Song 6:13)


From the time of the renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant that occurred in the early part of the first century forward, (Lu 22:28, 29) (He 9:16-18, 26-28) it would ALWAYS be a situation of "one is" with respect to divinely appointed "kings." (He 12:22) (Ga 4:26) The only question now is when exactly would the EARTHLY "camp" of Jehovah's nation be restored after it experiences one of these foretold "apostasies," which in turn are identified (once again) as spiritually adulterous violations of this same holy marriage covenant? (Da 11:32) (2 Th 2:3) In the case of this 6th foretold "king" of Revelation 17:10 or what is also referred to in the scriptures with terms such as the sixth baptism of a kind of "leprous" foreign "chieftain" or (once again) the 6th "birth of the barren woman," the answer is actually found in the prophesies of the ancient Daniel. (2 Ki 5:1, 10, 14) (Jer 15:9)


13 And I got to hear a certain holy one speaking, and another holy one proceeded to say to the particular one who was speaking: "How long will the vision of the continual sacrifice and of the transgression causing desolation to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?" 14 So he said to me: "Until two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings, and the holy place will certainly be brought back to its right condition."(Da 8:13, 14)


We will eventually come to discover that if or when we simply choose to accept the starting point that the prophet Jeremiah designated for this foretold period of foreign "exile and captivity" along with its commensurate "day for a year" calculating formula that MANY things we currently find confusing and mysterious will suddenly make perfect sense. (Jer 1:3) (Da 4:23, 32) (Lu 21:24) (Nu 14:34) (Eze 4:6) Rest assured it is no coincidence that when we calculate 2,300 years from the starting point of 609 CE, (the year that "King Jehoiakim" began his reign) we end up precisely at the time when the nation of England began to establish itself as "Great Britain" or otherwise the world power that followed the second foretold manifestation of Rome. (The 6th of these "seven kings") (Re 17:10) This is no more a coincidence than the fact that the ministry and subsequent priestly atonement of the "two witnesses" we read about in Revelation 11 is represented as coinciding with the "6th trumpet blast." (Re 9:12 11:3, 7, 11, 12)
"In the first century, this head/beast had been but was not.
Clearly this statement would be true at least at the very END of the first century since this was precisely the setting it was written in there at Revelation 17:8. And in order for it to even be possible for the "antichrist" or "disgusting thing"/"son of destruction" to appear on the earth at this time, (just as it was officially announced by John as doing so at this same time), it would of course first need to be absent. (1 Joh 2:18) (2 Th 2:1-8) Since it in turn is always made absent by means of a ministry of genuine prophets of Jehovah who renew another holy kingdom covenant with a ministry to Jesus' anointed "brothers" that ends with an act of priestly blood atonement, this would mean that the situation being described here in Revelation 17:8 was also true at the very BEGINNING of the first century. With the ministry and priestly atonement that was furnished for repentant mankind by John the Baptist and Jesus in 33 CE, the earth would experience the FIFTH of these "seven" foretold "kings" or "beasts" rising out of the "abyss." (The second foretold manifestation of Rome in this case that would position "holy ones" right amongst the very "household of Caesar") (Re 17:8) (Php 4:22) However now (in a setting 65 or so years later) that what the Apostle Paul had been warning his fellow Christians about as early as 50 or so CE had fully transpired, the situation was once again just as it is once again being described by John here both at Revelation 17:8, 10 and 1 John 2:18.

Is it beginning to appear as if what is being described here at Revelation 17:8 is actually part of a foretold cycle or "circuit" of events that would ultimately be repeated "seven times" up until the promised Millennial Reign? (Mt 10:23) (Da 4:23, 32) (Jos 5:3-5) However perhaps the main thing this factual information might prompt you to ponder or even reconsider my dear sister is one of your earlier assertions:
The 10 horns and crowns symbolize individual ruling entities. The number ten is symbolic but serves prophetic purposes for identifying the 8th king/beast which is the final one,
Particularly since these "ten horns" or more importantly what they are being used to symbolize are actually pictured a NUMBER of "times" in connection with these "wild beasts" or foreign "kings" the scriptures often speak of, might it stand to reason that they actually factor in at some point really with ALL of these "seven kings"? (Ro 12:1) (Re 17:10) I will continue to demonstrate with the scriptures precisely what is being symbolized by these "ten horns" also on this thread. Moreover I can assure everyone that if or when we come to actually accept what the scriptures have to share on this, they will begin to appreciate that these "ten horns" do indeed play a role with ALL of these foretold world powers we are considering here, just as is the case with what is represented also with the "TWO horns" on the "wild beast" of Revelation 13:11.
It no longer existed as a nation, but only as a scattered people. It ascended out of the abyss in 1947/48 when it was granted Palestine for a homeland."
Is it not already beginning to be apparent how the scriptures pose some serious problems for what I would refer to as the current mainstream narrative here? (Mt 7:13, 14) (Joh 15:18, 19) Beginning with my next post, please allow me to lovingly and respectfully demonstrate a NUMBER of irreconcilable difficulties that the scriptures present for this understanding.

Agape love;
Sol

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#120 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Get out of her wrote: 1 month ago Due to the fact that I am currently entertaining guests for a few weeks, I'm afraid it will continue taking me longer than usual to catch up with replies to all your comments LRW. For the moment my intention is to pick up where I left off a few days ago on this issue of scripturally identifying the "one is" there at Revelation 17:10.


Agape love;
Sol
Hello Sol,

Enjoy the visit of your friends.

Since I have already covered the beast in numerous posts in Revelation threads and you want to debate this, or as you say
to lovingly and respectfully demonstrate a NUMBER of irreconcilable difficulties that the scriptures present for this understanding
... So if we are to first of all "render our sacred service with our power of reason," would it not make perfect sense to consider questions like the following in this case?
You see it as your sacred service to convince me you are right and I am wrong. So I suggest you start a new topic on the beasts of Daniel and Revelation, and then everyone can join in and have their say. I do not see what I do here as a sacred service at all.

It is quite obvious we understand scripture from different points of view. But as the saying goes: ' the proof of the pudding is in the eating.'. In other words, before Jesus returns everything we believe is subjective, based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. And that is exactly as it should be. As one member rightly said in a reply, 'what Jesus taught brings what is in our hearts to the surface.' Jesus also said that the spirit of truth would teach us all things and bring back to our minds all the things he taught and that the world could not receive this spirit of truth, (Jhn 14:17,25,26). Having the spirit of truth does not mean that all sing in unison from the one hymn book. If that were the case then all would be able to identify the son of man's brothers, but they cannot, (Mt 25:37,38,40). Jesus's brothers do not master the new song/the song of Moses and the Lamb until they are chosen, (Rev 14:3,4; 15:3). Before that happens, the spirit of truth operates in each person individually to bring truths about themselves to the surface, and each time one removes a splinter of the rafter in one's eye one sees a little more clearly - it is an ongoing process, (Mt 7:3,4,5).

Receiving the spirit of truth does not mean that it is their sacred duty to convince others. That's the WT way. Jesus said concerning those that sing the new song, that they did not defile themselves with women i.e. gather a harem of followers, (Rev 14:4). The time for doing that is past. We are now in the tail end when the kings of the north and the rising of the sun are in opposition to the G7 unipolar world. And a new G8 multipolar world is in the making. The harlot has seen the writing on the wall, and my guess is that she will form a partnership with them, see (Rev 17:12,13,15,16,17).
LRW~

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