The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation

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lamesa
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Re: The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation

#11 Post by lamesa » 3 months ago

coccus ilicis wrote: 3 months ago
You make several unsupported statements e.g.
Please note that I have stated (and my author agrees) the following...
The Spiritual Interpretation: Holds that the book of Revelation is for people of God for all ages, that its ‘history’ applies to the lives of the vast majority of Christians who have lived, the Church Age, the time between the first and second comings of Christ...
The Revelation is a pastoral letter...The Book as a whole, and not part, is dedicated to ‘the seven churches which are in Asia ...
...that the 7 letters to the 7 churches were meant for all churches in all ages, in the same way the other apostolic letters are for all of the churches of all ages
Am I correct that this is what Ramsay says and you also believe.
Yes, my statements were supported--in the list below. But I didn't use bullets, so it may be easy to miss. So, I'll repost the info here, but add the bullets to make it more clear to see:
lamesa wrote: 3 months ago
The point the author was making (and I agree) is: that the book of Revelation was written for ALL ages of the church.
...
THE BOOK IS FOR ALL WHO READ, HEAR AND KEEP ITS WORDS

WHY was Revelation written?

The Revelation is a pastoral letter. The key to the mysteries of the Revelation is found (as we ought to expect) in the first chapter:
  • The blessing pronounced upon all who read this Book, who hear its words and who keep its sayings (Rev. 1:3).
  • The events were imminent at the time of writing; “The things which must shortly come to pass” – “The time is at hand” (Rev. 1:1 and Rev. 1:3).
  • The Book as a whole, and not part, is dedicated to "the seven churches which are in Asia," which means the sevenfold (or complete) church of our Lord then existing and to exist to the end of time (Rev. 1:4).

lamesa
Posts: 64
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Re: The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation

#12 Post by lamesa » 3 months ago

This is the most important of all, and it mostly gets lost in the myriad of predictions:
The book of Revelation is prophecy, all agree on this. Prophecy shows that all is settled and sure in God’s purposes, all human history is settled and sure. This is the most important lesson in Revelation, and if we get nothing else from the Revelation, we already understand the most important reason it is in the Bible.

Some day all will KNOW when the Lord returns. But UNTIL then, we do NOT.

"He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority" (Acts. 1:7).

"Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming" (Mat. 24:42).

As Christians, we must OBEY all of the Lord's words (John 15:14), and if we do not, well, no Holy Spirit. Then we are in total darkness (compare John 8:12).

Get out of her
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Re: The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation

#13 Post by Get out of her » 3 months ago

lamesa wrote:
Respectfully, I do not wish to debate prophecies. My intent was to show there are other opinions, which, in the case of the one I presented, is still in print after 150 years.
Yes lamesa, just as the name of this website suggests the objective here is to discuss the scriptures with the emphasis on discussion and not debate. Debate in fact often devolves into mere fighting and arguing which of course has no place with genuine ministers of Jehovah. (2 Tim 2:24)

Its very important to understand however that while everyone is of course entitled to their opinion on things, scriptures such as Genesis 40:8 and 1 Peter 1:20 make it rather clear that in the case of genuine ministers of Jehovah, mere opinions really are no part of the picture when they are engaged in preaching and teaching. Either they actually understand the particular Bible topic they are addressing and can consistently demonstrate it with the scriptures, or they cannot. If the latter is the case, the question now is- should they really be taking it upon themselves to preach and teach? With this in mind I wanted to pose a question or two that I'm hoping you can address with the scriptures as opposed to (respectfully) perhaps merely an interpretation/opinion of them that is not followed up with any genuine scriptural support. I'd like to start with the following statement of yours: (Hope you don't mind)
At the least, you can appreciate many Christians have found value in it for many, many years.
In much the same manner as the word—Jew, the term Christian is thrown around rather loosely, and in fact for a very long time now. While there are several definitions of both of these words, I'm sure we could both agree that the only one that matters is the scriptural one. Would it be too much to ask if you would be willing (please) to share the scriptural definition of a Christian with us?
I think the Revelation can be read BOTH prophetically AND spiritually. Both have value AND both are important. But I do not believe we are to make predictions, because our Lord specifically said to not do that:

Jesus said: “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority" (Acts 1:7).

With all due respect, I do not know whether or not this describes your ministry. But we know that JWs ignore that verse.
It has been my observation that most people also consistently overlook the very next verse of this account here in the first Chapter of Acts:


"But you WILL receive power when the Holy Spirit arrives upon you, and you WILL be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth." (Ac 1:8)


If there is any doubt as to exactly what is being conveyed here in the very next verse of Acts Chapter one, it is cleared up with scriptures such as 1 Thessalonians 5:1 and 1 John 2:27:


"Now as for the times and seasons brothers, you need nothing to be written to you." (2 Th 5:1)

"And as for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you do not need ANYONE to be teaching you; but as the anointing from him is teaching you about ALL things…" (1 Joh 2:27)


Particularly since people always begin to be well conditioned to overlook things such as very key changes in settings and contexts in the scriptures the moment another holy kingdom covenant is violated with spiritual adultery, I've gotten in the habit of reminding my dear brothers and sisters to begin paying much closer attention to them. Even aside from scriptures like the ones I have cited above however, it would be good for us to bear in mind that after the death of Jesus the writings of his Apostles most definitely included prophetic utterances about these very "times and seasons" themselves. And if anything the book of Revelation is the ultimate example of this.

So the second question I would lovingly and respectfully pose to you lamesa is basically- are we really here to "discuss the truth" of the scriptures, or perhaps merely peoples opinions on them? It is nobody's place to demand an answer from you; but at the very least I would ask you to please give these two questions some prayerful consideration. Also please do not imagine I am singling you out to perhaps pick on you or something like that. Unless I have basically already given up trying, what I am doing here with you is essentially what I do with everyone who begins posting comments on this website.

Agape love;
Sol

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coccus ilicis
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Re: The Spiritual Kingdom: How to Understand the Book of Revelation

#14 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

lamesa wrote: 3 months ago [Note: I'll reply in two parts, since you asked two good questions and each deserves its own treatment.]
coccus ilicis wrote: 3 months ago The first question that must be answered is, 'What does the word 'spiritual' convey to you. Google says: relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things... relating to religion or religious belief. Or is your definition something more than that, and if so could you please explain.
That’s a good question. The answer is simple: whatever is “spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14).

First, I would NEVER define Biblical words or concepts using Google (“of the flesh” John 3:6).

Google cannot distinguish between what is from Jehovah God and Spiritism (Rom. 8:6, 7). As Christians, the ONLY “spiritual” we are interested in is what is controlled by God’s Holy Spirit. So, please do not use Google as an authority (1 Cor. 2:14).

The Bible ALWAYS answers itself, “interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual” (1 Cor. 2:13, 14). And truly, WHO cares what the “flesh” thinks or says, right?! So, what does the Bible say?

The Bible places “spirit” in opposition to the “flesh”:
  • “You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him” (Rom. 8:9).
  • “no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God” (1 Cor. 2:11).
  • Compare: “Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Mat. 16:17).
  • “These things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God” (1 Cor. 2:10).
So, my answer is simply, after prayerfully reading the Scriptures and writings of Christian men who are faithful to the Scriptures and not human opinions, and when I ‘hear’ the Lord’s voice (John 10:27; compare Job 12:11), then I believe that I ‘hear’ the “spiritual” meaning. Does this sound “foolish” to the flesh? Good! (1 Cor. 2:14; 1 Cor. 1:18).

The “world” and the “flesh” CANNOT receive ANYTHING truly spiritual (John 14:17).
lamesa wrote: 3 months ago [Note: I'll reply in two parts, since you asked two good questions and each deserves its own treatment.]
coccus ilicis wrote: 3 months ago The first question that must be answered is, 'What does the word 'spiritual' convey to you. Google says: relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things... relating to religion or religious belief. Or is your definition something more than that, and if so could you please explain.
That’s a good question. The answer is simple: whatever is “spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14).

First, I would NEVER define Biblical words or concepts using Google (“of the flesh” John 3:6).

Google cannot distinguish between what is from Jehovah God and Spiritism (Rom. 8:6, 7). As Christians, the ONLY “spiritual” we are interested in is what is controlled by God’s Holy Spirit. So, please do not use Google as an authority (1 Cor. 2:14).

The Bible ALWAYS answers itself, “interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual” (1 Cor. 2:13, 14). And truly, WHO cares what the “flesh” thinks or says, right?! So, what does the Bible say?

The Bible places “spirit” in opposition to the “flesh”:
  • “You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him” (Rom. 8:9).
  • “no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God” (1 Cor. 2:11).
  • Compare: “Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Mat. 16:17).
  • “These things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God” (1 Cor. 2:10).
So, my answer is simply, after prayerfully reading the Scriptures and writings of Christian men who are faithful to the Scriptures and not human opinions, and when I ‘hear’ the Lord’s voice (John 10:27; compare Job 12:11), then I believe that I ‘hear’ the “spiritual” meaning. Does this sound “foolish” to the flesh? Good! (1 Cor. 2:14; 1 Cor. 1:18).

The “world” and the “flesh” CANNOT receive ANYTHING truly spiritual (John 14:17).
Hello Iamesa

When you say
The Bible ALWAYS answers itself
You are correct, but when you say
The Bible places “spirit” in opposition to the “flesh”
You are wrong.

The Hebrew word for spirit is Ruach 7307. ruach - breath, wind, spirit as at Gen 1:2, is also present in animals, see the right-hand column of the link above. Jehovah said: As for me here I am bringing a deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the spirit of life is active from under the heavens ... and everything in which the spirit of life was active in its nostrils, namely all that were on dry ground died... Gen 6:17; 7:15. Num 16:22 informs us of yet another facet of God's spirit, it says: O God, the God of the spirits, [plural], of every sort of flesh, will just one man sin and you become indignant at the entire assembly. Spirit occurs 377 times in the OT, if you want to understand what it says about it in the OT, here is the complete OT list.

What about the NT?

Jesus called the twelve together and gave them power over all the demons and to cure sickness so he sent them forth to preach and heal, (Lu 9:1,2). After which he sent them ahead of him when he was on his way to Jerusalem. But when they arrived at a Samaritan village, the villagers would not let them pass through. At that the apostles asked Jesus: Do you want us to tell fire to come down from heaven and annihilate them? But He turned and rebuked them, [and said], “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of, see Lu 9:55 NASB 1995, KJV, Amplified Bible, Douay, LSV, New Heart, WEB, Youngs Literal Translation. The twelve had God's spirit and yet were about to annihilate an entire village. Their spirit was not aligned with God's spirit, even as Peter's spirit was not aligned with God's spirit when he used it to kill Ananias and Sapphira.

The spirit that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about at Jhn 3:5 concerns the spirit that came down on Jesus at the time of his baptism, and referring to this spirit, he said: The wind blows where it wants to ... So is everyone born of the spirit, (Jhn 3:8). Paul understood that the Pentecostal spirit was only a token of what is to come that is the spirit in our hearts, (2Cor 1:22). See snip below to make sure that token or downpayment, is the correct rendering of this verse.

Image
(highlights, underscore & arrow mine)

So what was this spirit in our hearts that was not present in Paul's day?

Jesus speaking of the time when he is about to return said. If I go my way to prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself ... and I will request the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, the spirit of truth ... "While remaining with you I have spoken these things with you. But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.", (Jhn 14:3,16,17,25, 26).

This is the spirit Paul was looking forward to when he said: Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with, whether there are tongues, they will cease, whether there is knowledge it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and prophesy partially, but when that which is complete arrives [complete knowledge as at Jhn 14:26] that which is partial will be done away with, (1Cor 13:8,9).

Google only gives us the accepted definition of spiritual. And as you rightly said
The Bible ALWAYS answers itself
But one must first check what the Bible does say about it before forming an opinion that is similar to what Google says. You will find the list of the 383 occurrences of spiritual in the NT here.
LRW~

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