Saved by grace through faith, or by works?

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Get out of her
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Re: Saved by grace through faith, or by works?

#11 Post by Get out of her » 3 months ago

Paj wrote:
To "believe" doesn't just mean to intellectually believe or acknowledge. Jesus himself said this. As did Apostles James and Paul both.

People take Paul's words out of context that "faith alone" saves (something Peter mentioned in his letters that people don't understand his words, it's just as valid today as it was back then).
These statements rest on a solid scriptural foundation as passages like 1 John 5:3 and James 2:19, 20 make rather clear.

lamesa wrote:
"Jesus answered, 'Very truly I tell you... Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.' Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?' Jesus answered, The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent'” (John 6:26-29).

Particularly with this divine command of obedience in mind which would of course include "believing in the one God has sent," the latter part of this scripture you cited raises a few questions that I hope you don't mind me posing to you lamesa:

In connection with the prophetic words of Jesus in accounts like Matthew 24:45 and those of John in accounts like Revelation 11:3 and 12:5, would we perhaps take the position that we are under no obligation to "believe" or even "believe IN" these "faithful stewards" or "witnesses" since they are not Jesus? It should of course be clear to us that they would be "SENT" by Jehovah as worded there in John, and since they would clearly be anointed and this word in turn is the very DEFINITION of the Christ, they obviously would by extension qualify as among the "many members of the body of the CHRIST." (1 Cor 12:12) But if they do not qualify as Christ JESUS, would that mean we are not required to "believe in" them?

Here is something to factor in or even ponder in connection with these questions, and particularly with prophesies like Hebrews 9:26-28, Revelation 6:11 11:11, 12 12:5 and 13:7, 8 in mind:

In view of the fact that (per such scriptures) sacrificial priestly atonement would ultimately be part and parcel of these ministries as well, or otherwise what is ALWAYS the most pivotal thing involved with Jehovah's salvation, (which in turn is the very DEFINITION of the name -Jesus) are we not once again considering scriptural confirmations that even Christ JESUS is not an individual? And is this not the case even if this "body" does indeed have a "head" that ministered on the earth two millenniums ago alongside a second "witness" by the name of John the Baptist? (Col 1:18) (Re 11:3)

Yes we are all aware that none of the other members of the "faithful steward" or "inspectors" of the "sleeping" spiritual "virgins" would be perfect like their leader, but this is among the reasons that Jehovah would appoint this one as a "HEAD" of this "body" or "foundation cornerstone" of the spiritual "temple" in the first place. (1 Pe 2:6) (1 Cor 3:16, 17) Based alone on the scriptures I have covered so far, there are three things that should be perfectly clear to us regardless of how thoroughly we have been deceived by the "disgusting thing" that ALWAYS overthrows and occupies what WAS Jehovah's spiritual "temple" when his holy marriage covenant has been violated with spiritual adultery; the very situation that always makes another "coming of the kingdom" necessary in the first place. These would be the following:

First of all, it should be clear to us that the moment the fifth foretold priestly sacrificial offering of the "two witnesses" was completed in the early part of the first century; Jehovah would even RETROACTIVELY apply the value of this blood to ALL of the foretold ministries of the "faithful steward" or "son of man." (Eze 2:1) (Mt 26:31) Compare (Le 26:23-25)

Secondly, since it is ultimately the priestly sacrifice at the CONCLUSIONS these ministries of the "two witnesses" that actually furnishes Jehovah's salvation for repentant humans, in at least some sense even the unusually magnificent "faithful steward" of the first century that we always refer to as Jesus did not technically qualify as such until his ministry was successfully completed. (Joh 19:30)

Thirdly, at least in the case of Jesus' anointed "brothers" who are ALWAYS in desperate need of the spiritual "feeding" AND "covering atonement" or figurative "clothing" involved with these ministries of the "faithful stewards" in these time frames of a foretold "bowl of the anger of God" or "days like those of Noah" that we once again find ourselves in, OBEYING scriptures like John 6:26-29 would certainly INCLUDE "believing in" the prophets that Jehovah would be sending to the "sleeping virgins" in these periods. (Mt 24:37, 45 25:1-5, 34-40) (Am 3:7) (Re 16:1)

Once again, Jesus HIMSELF directed our attention to the account there in Daniel 11:30-32 when he prophesied about the times in which his anointed brothers would need to "flee to the mountains" due to the "disgusting thing" that would again come to occupy the "holy place." (Mt 24:15, 16) As we can see there in Daniel, not only is this tragedy all about an "apostasy" that involves "leaving the holy covenant" that Jesus and John the Baptist had just renewed with the anointed "virgins" yet again at that very time, but it also results in the "removal" of what is REPRESENTED or SIGNIFIED by the "CONTINUAL sacrifice." (Lu 22:28, 29) In other words, the atoning VALUE of this sacrifice is "continual" until the moment the holy covenant that always ESTABLISHES it is violated with an "apostasy" on the part of the appointed theocratic shepherds it is formed with. Are scriptures like Hebrew 9:26-28, Revelation 11:11, 12 and 13:7, 8 beginning to make more sense to us?

Rest assured there are very good reasons why Jesus compared our time period to the "days of Noah." (Mt 24:37) AMONG these reasons is the fact that a kind of "ark" is ALWAYS being constructed or even RE-constructed for the salvation of repentant mankind in these post-apostasy/pre-kingdom settings. While scriptures like 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17 help us to understand what the LITERAL ark of Noah's day actually represented in a symbolic/prophetic manner, ones like Joshua 3:3, Genesis 6:18 and Galatians 4:24 on the other hand remind us that a holy "COVENANT" or otherwise a RENEWED one is ultimately what reconstructs these "holy places" of Jehovah's refuge or salvation; "continual sacrifices" that a "disgusting thing" would often "destroy." (1 Cor 3:16, 17 6:15) (Da 11:31) (Mt 24:15, 16) (2 Th 2:1-8) (Isa 1:21)

Agape love;
Sol

lamesa
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Re: Saved by grace through faith, or by works?

#12 Post by lamesa » 3 months ago

One more thought, maybe this will help. Consider the Lord's words about faith at Matthew 17:20:

"He said to them, 'Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, "Move from here to there," and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.'"

Does "faith move mountains"? NO! But only GOD moves mountains.

Your/my faith does absolutely nothing to save you/me. ONLY God's mercy in the shed blood of his son, Jesus Christ.

This is a fundamental point. We are sinners, born in sin because of Adam. (Rom. 5:12). Nothing we can DO will save us.

lamesa
Posts: 64
Joined: 4 months ago

Re: Saved by grace through faith, or by works?

#13 Post by lamesa » 3 months ago

goghtherefore wrote: 3 months ago Hi lamesa
What you are presenting (scriptures) are absolutely correct! However, imo, it is possible to grieve Holy Spirit and it is possible to think say and do things that are pleasing to God. (I'm not saying this amounts to anything toward our sins being forgiven or even declared righteous via our Lord Jesus' shed blood)....I'm simply relying on scriptures that state one can do things that please God and conversely can do things that grieve Holy Spirit.
.02, oghtherefore
Hi oghtherefore,

Thank you! and I agree with half of what you wrote:
  • Yes, we absolutely can grieve Holy Spirit!
“Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God” (Heb. 3:12).
“Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts” (Heb. 4:7).
“It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb. 10:31).
  • On the other hand, until you/I are “born again” (John 3:3), that is to say, “saved by grace” (Eph. 2:5) or to say it another way, “made alive with Christ” (Co. 2:12, 13; Eph. 2:1), we can do nothing. Dead men can do nothing (Eph. 2:1) UNTIL we are “made alive” (Eph. 2:1), or born from above, or born again.
Here’s another way to look at it. We are great sinners and can choose our sins. But we are unable to please God until he saves us by grace and we receive the Holy Spirit. Does this make sense?

lamesa
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Joined: 4 months ago

Re: Saved by grace through faith, or by works?

#14 Post by lamesa » 3 months ago

Hi Sol,
Yes, we all agree on this. It seems you posted moments before my response to Proselytiser of Jah (or maybe my browser hadn’t refreshed because I only saw your post afterwards). Please read my response to PofJ for the complete response.
Get out of her wrote: 3 months ago Paj wrote:
To "believe" doesn't just mean to intellectually believe or acknowledge. Jesus himself said this. As did Apostles James and Paul both.

People take Paul's words out of context that "faith alone" saves (something Peter mentioned in his letters that people don't understand his words, it's just as valid today as it was back then).
These statements rest on a solid scriptural foundation as passages like 1 John 5:3 and James 2:19, 20 make rather clear.

Stranger
Posts: 2602
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Saved by grace through faith, or by works?

#15 Post by Stranger » 3 months ago

lamesa wrote: 3 months ago Here’s another way to look at it. We are great sinners and can choose our sins. But we are unable to please God until he saves us by grace and we receive the Holy Spirit. Does this make sense?

"The devil tempts you, oh ye of little faith". When you make a change to one behavior it will activate a chain reaction and cause a shift in related behaviors, accept the grace of the Blood of the Lord and the Benefits of Holy Spirit instead of slipping and sliding playing dominos. Many things please God and He does Reward.


Stranger, (1Cor 10:13)

lamesa
Posts: 64
Joined: 4 months ago

Re: Saved by grace through faith, or by works?

#16 Post by lamesa » 3 months ago

This is a message to everyone so far: goghtherefore, Proselytiser of Jah, and Get out of her:

What does “SAVED BY GRACE” mean in the Bible?

It occurred to me that we must define what the Bible means when it says that we are "saved by grace" (Eph. 2:8). Note that Paul says we are “saved” in the past tense. All true Christians are “saved by grace” according to the apostle’s definition.

SALVATION = JUSTIFICATION (declared righteous)

“Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified” (Gal. 2:16).

Note again, Paul says we are “justified” in the past tense. All true Christians are “justified,” according the apostle.

So, what is Justification? (declared righteous)?

In biblical terms, justification is a divine verdict of "not guilty—fully righteous." It is the reversal of God's attitude toward the sinner. Whereas He formerly condemned, He now vindicates. Although the sinner once lived under God's wrath, as a believer he/she is now under God's blessing.

Justification is more than simple pardon; pardon alone would still leave the sinner without merit before God. So when God justifies He imputes divine righteousness to the sinner (Romans 4:22-25). Christ's own infinite merit thus becomes the ground on which the believer stands before God (Romans 5:19; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Philippians 3:9). So justification elevates the believer to full acceptance and divine privilege in Jesus Christ.

Therefore, because of justification, believers not only are perfectly free from any charge of guilt (Romans 8:33) but also have the full merit of Christ reckoned to their personal account (Romans 5:17). Here are the realities that flow out of justification:

• We are adopted as sons and daughters (Romans 8:15)
• We become fellow-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17)
• We are united with Christ so that we become one with Him (1 Corinthians 6:17)
• We are henceforth "in Christ" (Galatians 3:27) and He in us (Colossians 1:27)

Why do we need to be Justified (declared righteous)?

While it is true that the Scriptures insist on man’s responsibility, and that God deals with the sinners as accountable; yet it is also true that the Bible plainly and constantly shows that no son of Adam has ever measured up to his/her responsibility, that everyone has miserably failed. This is why there is need for God to work in the sinner, and to do for him what he is unable to do for himself. “They that are in the flesh cannot please God” (Rom 8:8). The sinner is “without strength” (Rom 5:6). Apart from the Lord Jesus, we “can do nothing” (John 15:5). Therefore, we need a Savior, who JUSTIFIES us before God! Amazing grace!

lamesa
Posts: 64
Joined: 4 months ago

Re: Saved by grace through faith, or by works?

#17 Post by lamesa » 3 months ago

One small clarification:

SALVATION = JUSTIFICATION (declared righteous) + NEW BIRTH (made alive in the spirit, 1 Pet 3:18)

lamesa
Posts: 64
Joined: 4 months ago

Re: Saved by grace through faith, or by works?

#18 Post by lamesa » 3 months ago

Oh My! Wrong scripture, here is the correction:

SALVATION = JUSTIFICATION (declared righteous) + NEW BIRTH (made alive in the spirit, Eph. 2:5; Col. 2:13)

lamesa
Posts: 64
Joined: 4 months ago

Re: Saved by grace through faith, or by works?

#19 Post by lamesa » 3 months ago

Good bye. This has been an interesting experience for me because it has confirmed what I have come to realize, which is the JW doctrines and values are pagan, with Christian labels. Now I understand why "Christendom" says the JWs (and the other cults, including Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists) are not Christian. They were right.

This is a good read:
https://banneroftruth.org/us/store/theo ... ic-gospel/

Also, I think you'll really like this about the Narrow Gate (a reading excerpt from AW Pink):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cuzzt3cYjmc

This publisher is excellent , they are faithful and have been blessed by Holy Spirit. You will hear the Lord's voice and find the true church in these books. Here are some of my favorite authors (in random order):

John Calvin (1509-1564)
Arthur W Pink (1886-1952)
William Gurnall (1616-1679) - The Christian in Complete Armour, GREAT BOOK, click here to listen to an excerpt about the Sword of the Spirit
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tc9tpo14eflu7 ... a.mp3?dl=0
Alexander Carson (1776-1844) - One of my favorite books, Confidence in God in Times of Danger
https://www.chapellibrary.org/book/cigi ... nalexander
William Henry Green (1825-1900)
Robert Bruce (1554-1631)
Samuel Rutherford (1600-1661)
William Bridge (1600-1670)
Thomas Manton (1620–1677)
Robert Murray McCheyne (1813-1843)
Richard Sibbes (1577-1635)
Ralph Venning (1622-1674)
Jeremiah Burroughs (1599-1646)
Martyn Lloyd-Jones (1899-1981)
Thomas Shepard (1605-1649)
Benjamin B Warfield (1851-1921)
Walter J Chantry (1938-) - great sermons (also available in books): exposition of the Book of Habakkuk, and Life of David
https://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp? ... xactVerse=

... and so many more at the Banner of Truth website.

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coccus ilicis
Posts: 1004
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Saved by grace through faith, or by works?

#20 Post by coccus ilicis » 3 months ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 3 months ago
lamesa wrote: 3 months ago "Jesus answered, 'Very truly I tell you... Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.' Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?' Jesus answered, The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent'” (John 6:26-29).
To "believe" doesn't just mean to intellectually believe or acknowledge. Jesus himself said this. As did Apostles James and Paul.
... People take Paul's words out of context that "faith alone" saves (something Peter mentioned in his letters that people don't understand his words, it's just as valid today as it was back then) ...
To "believe" means to "obey Jesus", which means to do the "works" Jesus commands, which means obeying God's laws. Our works do not save us from everlasting sin, only Jesus' sacrifice opens that door, but we have to obey the commands of Jesus, or we will die. Jesus saves us from sin alone, but willingly living a life of sin, even if believing in Jesus, will invalidate that salvation.
..."Many will say to me, Lord, Lord... I will say to them, I never knew you".
Well said Proselytiser.

I see belief as a two-fold thing as was the case with those that Jesus addressed in Jhn 6:27,28. Read in context the great crowd, the ones whom Jesus had fed, believed him to be the promised Messiah and wanted to make him king (Jhn 6:10 14,15), And they would have succeeded had he not withdrawn from them up into the mountain all alone. Undeterred they followed, and that is when he said to them "Work not for the food that is perishing, but for food that is enduring into everlasting life which the Son of man will give to you", Jhn 6:27. So their motivation was political, if they made him king it would greatly enhance their lot in life. Their belief/faith was not based on what Jesus taught but on what they thought he would do for them. It is no different for the majority that calls themselves Christian today - they want to be saved - whatever that means to each individual.

All of those who had chased after him that day turned away from him in disgust when he told them ... Unless you shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of Man and unless you shall have drunk his blood you have no life in yourself... The one eating my flesh and drinking my blood has life eternal and I will raise him up in the last day Jhn 6:53,54.

The only ones that remained with him after he had said this were the twelve. And he asked them,
"You do not also want to go, do you?", Peter answered: "Lord to whom shall we go away to? You have the sayings of everlasting life and you are the Holy One of God." They also did not understand but stayed with him because they believe he was the holy one of God. Today it is still much the same for many of those that believe in him. But today the situation is a little different. We have access to the entire bible, not only that, but we can find out what it says in the original language because God has purposed it.

Jesus had told those that had chased after him, Work not for the food that is perishing, but for food that is enduring into everlasting life which the Son of man will give to you, [future]; for the Father, even God, has sealed him (Jhn 6:27. It says will give you. He is speaking to those who are alive in the time of the end.
  • What is that food?
  • And how can we work for it?
  • And what did he mean when he said: 'For the Father, even God has sealed him'?
Before saying all this he had withdrawn again into the mountain all alone. It says again.
  • When had be previously been there and what had happened there to make him speak as he did, which made the bulk of those that had believed in him turn away in disgust?
Is answering these questions the work we must do for the food that is remaining into everlasting life?

Jesus had said concerning the ones that would go to heaven, that the Father would send them the spirit of truth that would remain with them forever, saying: that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you, (Jhn 14:15-17,26). So work and belief go hand in hand. He said that this spirit would teach us, that means learning on our part. This is the work we must do for food that is remaining into everlasting life.
LRW~

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