Who was Paul Praying To? (2 Corinthians 12:8-9)

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Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Who was Paul Praying To? (2 Corinthians 12:8-9)

#11 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 4 months ago

Get out of her wrote: 4 months ago For that same reason I was hoping you might please tell me where it was exactly that you found this information?
Sure, if you look here at the interlinear:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/7-59.htm

Stephen "called out".

On all references of the word used as well as core definitions:
https://biblehub.com/greek/epikaloumenon_1941.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/1941.htm


It's a separate phrase from "prayed", or "prayer".

Examples in scriptures of each word used for prayer:
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/6-18.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/11-1.htm


References:
https://biblehub.com/greek/proseuche_s_4335.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/proseuchomenon_4336.htm

Core Definition:
https://biblehub.com/greek/4336.htm
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

Get out of her
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Re: Who was Paul Praying To? (2 Corinthians 12:8-9)

#12 Post by Get out of her » 4 months ago

Thanks again Paj.

Agape love;
Sol

Get out of her
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Re: Who was Paul Praying To? (2 Corinthians 12:8-9)

#13 Post by Get out of her » 4 months ago

Gogth wrote:
Colossians 1:15

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…"

Scripture also refer the Logos/Word (who became the man Jesus), was begotten.

John 1:14: "... ... his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, ... His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and ..."

To me begotten means: born from; which, imo, is much different than being created. Further to coming into existence by means of (born of/from) the Supreme One; was used to create "all things" (except His (and our) Father and Himself...grin)

.02 goghtherefore

Thank you for your input on this gogth:

It is precisely understandings or views like this (ones that have in fact been programmed into ALL us for essentially our entire lives) that move me to at times encourage my dear brothers and sisters to begin expanding their Bible reading habits to include books which institutions like the Catholic Church have been endeavoring to remove from the Bible canon for millenniums now. These would include ones such as the book of Jasher that is mentioned in accounts like Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18. Obviously if we are to buy into the position that Jasher is "spurious," we might as well toss out the book of Joshua and 2 Samuel while we are at it. Then we are confronted with the question of where exactly does it end, and particularly in view of things such as the fact that even in the 66 books we are all familiar with there are references and even direct quotes from OTHER prophets of Jehovah and THEIR writings, such as the ancient Enoch.

With Enoch in mind in fact, if memory serves he was at least ONE of the ancient prophets who actually identified the first angel that Jehovah ever created as Azazel. Moreover it was it brought out at some point not only that Azazel was the angel who later became known a satan, but the indication was that his status as the first and oldest angel was yet another thing he later allowed to contribute to his prideful fall. If we were already familiar with ancient accounts like this, undoubtedly scriptural passages such as found at Leviticus 16, 8, 10, 26 would make much more sense to us upon encountering them. This is not to mention the impact such knowledge might have on the way we come to understand scriptures like Colossians 1:15 or the opening verses of John. But of course the objective of Satan and his minions is to sow as much confusion and ignorance as possible when it comes to the truth of God's word, and prompting false religious institutions to suddenly declare books like Jasher as no part of the holy writings is merely among MANY ways he has long been doing so. (2 Cor 4:3)

It simply cannot be over-stressed just how important it is for us to understand that this tremendous proliferation of spiritual darkness or "veiling" of genuine scriptural truth along with its devastating effects are ALWAYS part and parcel of the scenario in ANY of the foretold periods in which mankind would be facing another foretold "coming of the Christ" or "kingdom/nation" with its commensurate judgments of Jehovah against Satan's system of things. In fact this incredibly alarming situation is always basically the reason for this divine restoration of Israel and its TRUE teachings and worship in the first place, whether it be spiritual Israel or the fleshly manifestation that served to prophetically and symbolically "typify" it. (He 8:5)

With this in mind, when we read scriptures like Matthew 24:37 which DIRECTLY refer to the PRECISE time frame we have all currently found ourselves in, are we reminded that basically NOBODY paid any attention AT ALL to the ministry or preaching messages of Jehovah's prophet in this prophetic drama of Noah and the ark? Has it EVER been pointed out to us that in this particular case the ministry to Noah's fellow humans was used to symbolize the ministry of the prophets or "son of man"/"two witnesses"/"faithful steward" etc. towards the anointed ones, and the subsequent gathering of all the animals into the ark was in turn representing the PUBLIC ministry to the "other sheep" with an EARTHLY hope that ALWAYS follows? (Eze 2:1) (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12) (He 9:26-28) (Mt 24:45 25:34-40) (Joh 10:16) (Lu 12:32) (Re 7:9) The reason the answer to both of these questions is basically – no is because in ANY of these foretold time frames Satan has been permitted to do all he can to insure that we are dealing with virtually NOTHING BUT "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine." (Mt 15:9)

Assuming brother Gogth that I have actually been able to help you recognize to at least SOME degree that you have long been intentionally and insidiously led to NOT correctly understand scriptures such as the ones you are citing here, perhaps you are now a bit more open to prayerfully considering what the Bible ACTUALLY teaches on this issue. Just recently I have posted yet another article on the topic under the thread entitled—The more unaddressed teachings of Jesus. I am referring specifically to the last two posts in the thread or otherwise #18 and 19 in this case.

Agape love;
Sol

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Re: Who was Paul Praying To? (2 Corinthians 12:8-9)

#14 Post by Stranger » 4 months ago

Get out of her wrote: 4 months ago It is precisely understandings or views like this (ones that have in fact been programmed into ALL us for essentially our entire lives)
Hi Sol,

That's NOT a fact for me and I'm sure a lot of others. The Fact for me is I have absolutely NOT been programmed by anyone. You seem to be saying that you were programmed and have deprogrammed yourself and that you have all knowledge of how to be deprogrammed. Perhaps you would like to reword that.


Stranger, (Ro 8:35)

Get out of her
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Re: Who was Paul Praying To? (2 Corinthians 12:8-9)

#15 Post by Get out of her » 4 months ago

It's very important to understand first of all (Stranger) that the setting there in Romans 8:35 that you cited is one in which God's nation/kingdom had once again been re-established on the earth with yet another ministry of the "son of man" or "two witnesses" (also referred to as "spies"/"inspectors" or "prophets to the nations") and the renewed and inaugurated holy covenant with repentant ones that always follows. (Eze 2:1) (Jer 1:5) (Lu 19:44) (Jos 2:1) (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12) (Lu 22:28, 29) (Ez 17:14, 15)

This is what accounts for scriptures such as Colossians 1:13 which were written around the same time. In other words Paul is addressing his fellow theocratically appointed shepherds in this account or even his fellow Apostles which of course do not exist in a setting such as ours. Just as is pointed out in accounts like Matthew 25:1-10, in a setting when we are once again eagerly anticipating another of these foretold "births of the barren woman" or "comings of the kingdom," even the anointed ones qualify as mere "sleeping virgins" and spiritual "widows" who hopefully are at least humbly and repentantly STRIVING to identify a true prophet of God and conform themselves to what they have to say, so that people may once again BECOME ones that Paul is speaking to in accounts like Romans 8:35. (La 1:1, 4) (Jer 15:9) (Isa 66:7, 8)

Stranger wrote:
You seem to be saying that you were programmed and have deprogrammed yourself and that you have all knowledge of how to be deprogrammed. Perhaps you would like to reword that.
The reason I am constantly directing people's attention to the Holy Scriptures is because MY knowledge which would INCLUDE instructions for becoming "deprogrammed" (if you will) does not amount to anything. Just recently in fact I covered some scriptures on the topic under lamesa's thread entitled –The Revelation Spiritually Understood (And why I'm not a dispensationalist) This was in post #2 and the latter portion of it in particular. I went so far on this occasion in fact as to share a very powerful and rewarding experience I had after I finally managed just a few years ago to actually FOLLOW these divine instructions.

Agape love;
Sol

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Re: Who was Paul Praying To? (2 Corinthians 12:8-9)

#16 Post by coccus ilicis » 4 months ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 4 months ago As I am an Arian Christian, I obviously feel that the Father is the true God alone, and therefore, that prayer also be directed toward him alone.


However, I came across a different perception of 2 Corinthians 12:8-9 tonight, which motivated some deep pondering on my account, on whether God also declared it acceptable to also pray to the Son....


I have always felt that In scripture, it appears that all prayer is to be directed to the God Yah (YHWH) alone, the Father, as taught by Jesus himself in his famous “model prayer”:

“….So then, this is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one”[/i]. – Matthew 6:9-13


This example prayer of Jesus, and seemingly most prayers of his Apostles, were directed to the Father.

However, some also consider it appropriate to pray to Jesus, on the basis of scriptures such as John 14:14, in which Jesus says “if you ask ‘me’ for anything in my name, I will do it”

However, I considered further in scripture, that he explained to his Disciples, that after he ascended, they would no longer ask Jesus for anything, but instead were to ask the Father “directly” for all things in prayer in his name. Which may be therefore a proof of a command from Jesus to pray to the Father alone, just as he did in his model example prayer.

” Jesus went on to say, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.’ At this, some of his disciples said to one another, ‘What does he mean by saying, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,’ and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?’… In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete…. In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father’.” – John 16:16-18, 23-24, 26-28


But I admit, it can be argued strongly that one may also pray to the Son Jesus who has been given all authority in Heaven, on the basis of Paul’s words in 2 Corinthians 12:8-9:

“Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly in my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest on me”.



The “Lord” here, can be argued to either be the Father, or the Son, for we see Paul pleads with “the Lord”, and in response, that Lord said “my power”… of which Paul then cited to be the “power of Christ”, implying that the speaker may have been Jesus, therefore showing that Paul may have been praying or petitioning Jesus directly.

Of course, one may also argue, that the Lord here is the Father, and that the “power of Christ” is the power of God, which is channelled “through” Christ to his followers.


So I'd appreciate some thoughts!

Perhaps I was wrong all this time about prayers to Jesus being inappropriate. I still of course am secure in my belief of him not being God Almighty, but perhaps him having all authority under Heaven, other than over God himself, also allows for prayer to be directed to him.

Nevertheless, I'll likely still pray to directly to the Father, even if praying to Jesus "sounds nice" (as it would be nice to also praise the Son directly as Lord and Master), but based upon his words of asking the Father directly, and the Lord's Prayer, these things make it uncertain for me.
Hello Proselytiser

Thank you for starting this thread, it is an all-important topic.

Jesus had said ...I am going my way to the Father. Also whatever you ask the Father in my name I will do this in order that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son. If you ask anything in my name I will do it.

The common denominator here is the name Yehovah, and the name Yehoshua/Jesus. Yehovah means, 'he comes to be, and Yeshua means 'he comes to be' saves. So the phrase 'Jehovah God,' as at Gen 3:9, literally means He comes to be God. Paul who was fluent in Hebrew and Greek would have known what the phrase 'Jehovah God' meant, and what Jesus had said when he gave us what is now called the Lord's prayer, Mt 6:5-13). The penny dropped for him when he was told, my undeserved kindness is sufficient for you. At that point, it all came together for him.

So let's see if we can understand what Paul understood when he was told my undeserved kindness is sufficient for you.

Jesus referred to himself as the 'Son of Man' and so appropriately included himself when he tells us to pray, Our Father in the heavens. He had told them that they must not pray as the hypocrites do, who like to pray in public places to be seen by others. So a person's attitude, when they pray, is all important. And he also told them not to ask for the same things over and over again because the Father knows you need these things even before they ask, (Mt 6:5-8).

So what is this prayer all about, if it is not about the things the Father already knows we need?

He said to them "You must pray then this way. "Our Father who is in the heavens, hallowed/sanctified be your name. The verb be is an aorist imperative verb, so it is not a request but more of a command or vow, something that must happen. Let your kingdom/rule Come , let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Come and be done are aorist imperative verbs, it is something that must happen. And so Jehovah/HeComesToBe God, comes to be God, when his will is done on earth as it is in heaven. We are in effect telling the Father to make this happen.

Give us our daily bread for this day. Again, the verb, give us, is aorist imperative, we are telling Jehovah to do this. But what is the bread that is here referred to, since Jesus has already told us not to pray for the same things over and over again, for the Father knows we need these things?

When Jesus had spoken to the Samaritan woman at the well his disciples had gone off to buy food/bread. When they returned the disciples interrupted the conversation, saying: "Rabbi, eat", and he told them: "I have food to eat which you do not know," adding, my food is for me to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish that work, (Jhn 4:8,27,31,34). This is the bread we demand when we say: Give us our daily bread for the day. That spiritual bread is different each day, as we approach him about what concerns us most that day. Even as Paul did, and was told ' my undeserved kindness is sufficient for you,'. For instance today. I was at a loss as to what to write on the forum and I demanded the Father give me my bread for this day. I had briefly looked at your thread before, but today when I sat down at my computer I felt the need to read it properly and answer your question in full. Each of us has different things that concern them each day and so the bread he gives is different each day.

After getting our bread, we are to pray: And forgive us our trespasses/debts as also we forgive those who trespass against us. The verb, forgive us, is again aorist-imperative. We are telling the father to follow through on what Jesus had said would happen at Mt 18: 23-33. The second forgive, is a simple aorist verb, it depends to what extent we forgive another that has trespassed against us. We are telling Jehovah to deal fairly with us to the same extent as we deal fairly with others.

But why do we say this immediately after we have been given our bread? Because when we are given our bread, the answer to our prayer, we feel great, so great that we may begin to spout (cf Jhn 4:14), as I am doing here.

To help us regain our balance, get back on an even keel, we ask: Do not lead us into temptation. This is an aorist subjunctive request, a plea. We are in effect saying, 'please do not let me fall into temptation.' Because when we are given our bread we feel special and are inclined to be hubristic, even as was David, when Jehovah killed seventy thousand in Israel, (read 2Sam 23:1 through to 2Sam 24:15). David had overstepped the mark, and become too big for his boots.

This is what Paul understood when he was told 'My undeserved kindness is sufficient for you,' (cf 2 Sam 24:1,3), and this is what he attempted to explain to the Corinthians, (cf 2Cor 12:1-5). He preferred is weaknesses because they held him in check.

The prayer ends with us saying: But deliver us from evil. The verb deliver us is again aorist-imperative. We are telling our Father to do whatever it takes to stop us from falling into the trap of our own making. To bring us back to our senses. Because what happens when we feel special, whether we voice it or not, it makes those to whom we address our remarks feel inferior, and we may become the hypocrite, as in Mt 6:2 & Mt 7:1-5.

So this is a prophetic cautionary prayer, which we pray with ever-increasing intensity as the need for Jehovah's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven, grows more urgent by the day. And as we grow in understanding, we plead with Jehovah to stop us from growing too big for our boots on the one hand, and yet give us the discipline, strength and courage to say what needs to be said.
LRW~

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Re: Who was Paul Praying To? (2 Corinthians 12:8-9)

#17 Post by Stranger » 4 months ago

Get out of her wrote: 4 months ago In other words Paul is addressing his fellow theocratically appointed shepherds in this account or even his fellow Apostles which of course do not exist in a setting such as ours.

Hi Sol,

That's exactly why we should trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, who is never far away from those who hear His Voice. To use a JW term, we are in a setting of "critical times hard to deal with". Whether or not it's the first through seventh setting of a pre/kingdom post/apostasy setting as you call it, we must at all times remember that we are living in present times.


Stranger, (Isa 52:8 KJV)

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