What does it mean to be “Born Again”? (The New Birth or Regeneration)

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lamesa
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What does it mean to be “Born Again”? (The New Birth or Regeneration)

#1 Post by lamesa » 4 months ago

[This article was written for JWs, whose doctrines contain enough truth to be as dangerous as the old snake was in the garden. Keep in mind, Satan was speaking “truth” when he said: “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” But his goal was to deceive. This is how to look at all of the JW doctrines. They are truly of the devil. All three of the major American cults, Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists and Watchtower, were incorporated in the late 19th century. Get out and get her out of your head completely. Like Nicodemus, you need a new birth. Not a reformation, but a regeneration. I wasted 25 years in attempting to reform my beliefs until I learned to purge/question everything and start over. You likely don’t have 25 years to waste. Lesson 1: Historic Christianity did not begin as a cult corporation. Historic Christianity is Christ’s church, comprised of wheat and tares. Until I understood this, I could not make progress.]

“Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God’” (John 3:3).

Jesus clearly emphasized the importance of the new birth when he said “Most assuredly” and “unless.” A Christian, by definition, must be born again.

Not a reformation, that Nicodemus’ mistake. He came to Jesus to gain more knowledge, the Pharisee acknowledged Jesus as a “teacher.” Jesus’ response was that he must be “born again.” Nicodemus couldn’t understand why HE would need a reformation? “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” (v. 4). Jesus then repeated his statement about being “born again” and added:

“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again’” (John 3:5-7).
Now Nicodemus is confused, “How can these things be?” (v. 9).

“Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, ... If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? ...And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life” (vv 10-15).

In order to “see” (v. 16) and believe spiritual things a man must be made spiritual. The “natural man” may hear about them, and have an idea of the doctrine of them, but he cannot experience them, or find his joy in them (1 Cor. 2:13-15; 2 Thess. 2:10). No one can “hear” the “voice of Christ” (Rev. 3:20) until a radical change takes place, a “new birth into a living hope” (1 Pet. 1:3 NIV).

On Nicodemus:
http://www.tapesfromscotland.org/Audio6/6967.mp3

Get out of her
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Re: What does it mean to be “Born Again”? (The New Birth or Regeneration)

#2 Post by Get out of her » 4 months ago

The scriptures make it clear that there is straight out witchcraft/spell casting involved in this deception or what Ezekiel referred to as "double faced divination." (Eze 12:24, 25) That certainly would explain why it takes many of us (like myself for example) so long to "catch sight" of this "disgusting thing" that ones like Jesus and the prophet Daniel speak of in accounts like Daniel 11:30-32 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8. (Mt 24:15, 16) Passages like these point out that the demons are allowed to overthrow and occupy the holy "sanctuary" or "temple" the moment Jehovah's appointed earthly shepherds "leave the holy covenant" with an act of spiritual adultery. This is namely the "apostasy" that ALWAYS transforms what WAS a kind of "faithful town" into a great spiritual "prostitute." (Isa 1:21) (1 Cor 6:15) Of course from the year 33 CE forward this "temple" would actually comprise the one spoken of in accounts like 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17.

Among the things they quickly begin to veil with this sorcery however are ones such as the fact that as early as 51 or so CE the Apostle Paul made it clear that yet another of these demonic overthrows was already in the making. (2 Th 2:5-8) In turn (the moment we genuinely begin to understand the symbolic spiritual language at least) accounts like 1 John 2:18 and Revelation 17:10 bring out that by the end of the first century this "apostasy" being spoken of by Paul had indeed unfolded for the fifth of the "seven times" it was foretold to for this period of foreign "exile and captivity." (Lu 21:24) (Da 4:23, 32) (Jer 1:3)

Yes Jesus was after all speaking prophetically there at Matthew 24:15, 16, and this would certainly account for the confirmations I already covered as well as others such as found at Hebrews 9:26-28, Revelation 11:3, 7, 11 ,12 12:5 and 13:7, 8. The fact is that throughout the entire history of Jehovah's nation the scriptures consistently pointed ultimately to "SEVEN births" of a figurative "barren woman" in connection with Jehovah's holy nation or kingdom during the time frame of the "appointed times of the nations" ALONE, and by extension seven opportunities for repentant people to SHARE in these births. (Jer 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5) (Isa 54:1-4 66:7, 8)

The FINAL opportunity for humble and repentant humans to become "born again" which was foretold to unfold during the time of an "EIGHTH king" would be distinct from the initial seven largely in the sense that it would have nothing whatsoever to do with human rulership AT ALL, let alone FOREIGN rulers. (Re 17:11) We of course refer to this as the Millennial Reign, and its "pangs of distress" upon this figurative "pregnant woman" are obviously well under way at this very moment. (1Th 5:1-3) Regardless of how well or thoroughly programmed we have been to understand things differently, the fact is that these phenomenons of becoming "born again" ALWAYS coincide with these "births of the barren woman" or what are also referred to as the "comings of the kingdom."

You see lamesa if satan and the demons could succeed in continually keeping these very demonstratable scriptural truths from being revealed or even ACCEPTED by what always qualify as "sleeping" anointed "virgins" and "widows" in these time frames as opposed to "brides of the lamb," they know that these ones would never truly embark on the humble and repentant actions that are ALWAYS required in these post-apostasy/pre-kingdom time frames to once again become "born again." (Mt 3:1, 2 25:1, 2, 5, 10) (La 1:1, 4) (Re 21:2, 9) For the most part the demons in fact actually DO succeed in this deception, which is basically why the ones who ultimately make it all the way to the next foretold "marriage feast" or renewal of this broken holy marriage covenant are described as "few" by Jesus. (Mt 22:14 25:10) (Lu 22:28, 29) These are of course specifically the ones who will have a share as actual RULERS among this holy nation. (Re 5:10 20:6)

Agape love;
Sol

lamesa
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Re: What does it mean to be “Born Again”? (The New Birth or Regeneration)

#3 Post by lamesa » 4 months ago

Hi again,

While I agree with much of what you wrote (since you are wisely following the scriptures), your conclusions are based on assumptions that I no longer agree with. For example:

Dispensationalism: interpreting prophecies using systematic chronology (most use charts). For example, most Dispensationalists believe the 8 kings of Revelation refer to 8 periods (dispensations) of time. Also, Dispensationalists believe the millennium of Revelation 20:6 is literally one thousand years. While Dispensationalists interpretations vary widely (JWs are ultra-dispensationalists), Dispensational theology relies upon a literal approach to interpreting prophecy. JN Darby (1800-1882) is considered the father of modern Dispensationalism and the Scofield Bible (with notes) by CI Scofield (1843-1921) popularized Dispensationalism in America. Mainstream Dispensationalists divide the Bible into that which refers to the Kingdom (Israel) and that which speaks of the church.

Dispensationalism did not exist until the 1830s. Most people consider JN Darby (1800-1882) as the father of Dispensationalism, but his ideas originated from a from a Roman Catholic Jesuit Spanish writer, named Manuel Lacunza. His book, "The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty," was translated by Edward Irving (1792-1834) in 1827. You likely know of Irving because of his influence on Charles Russell.

Stranger
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Re: What does it mean to be “Born Again”? (The New Birth or Regeneration)

#4 Post by Stranger » 4 months ago

lamesa wrote: 4 months ago Re: What does it mean to be “Born Again”? (The New Birth or Regeneration)

Hi lamesa,

Good topic, one that's hard to explain with and without religion, but I personally believe that when one is born again the religion goes away and one winds up without it, It becomes unnecessary while in the safe confines of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and direction of the Holy Spirit. The Very living Word of God becomes you're complete Authority. Sol has some good points about the devil and his demons and how they fool people, but in the Words of the Late Billy Graham "that's why we memorize scripture, so that we can quote scripture to the devil and his demons in our hour of temptation. (Dallas, Tx. 1972)



Stranger, (1Pet 2:15)

lamesa
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Re: What does it mean to be “Born Again”? (The New Birth or Regeneration)

#5 Post by lamesa » 4 months ago

lamesa wrote: 4 months ago re Dispensationalism
Dispensationalism is off topic so I started a new post, "Why I am not a Dispensationalist" ;)

Get out of her
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Re: What does it mean to be “Born Again”? (The New Birth or Regeneration)

#6 Post by Get out of her » 4 months ago

Hello again lamesa:

I am happy to see you are interested in sharing in these Bible discussions. Nothing could be more important than the divine messages contained in them really in ANY time period, and if anything particularly in the time frame we immediately find ourselves in, at least in my estimation.

I read over your reply to my post, but I'm afraid I don't recognize my personal understandings or teachings of the scriptures as falling into any of the categories that you listed. I suppose this is another way of saying I'm not really sure what it is exactly that you agree OR disagree with. More than happy to dig further into it with you nonetheless.

With that said I tend to assume you realize I am not here to try and force anyone to adopt my understandings or otherwise accept what I have to share on scriptural things. As the name of this website suggests, open and free "discussion" of the scriptures is the approach being advocated here, and we at least most often do our utmost to perform these discussions in a loving, respectful and constructive manner. From everything I can see so far that is your approach as well, and that is partly why I am excited to have you here with us.

gape love;
Sol

lamesa
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Re: What does it mean to be “Born Again”? (The New Birth or Regeneration)

#7 Post by lamesa » 4 months ago

Get out of her wrote: 4 months ago From everything I can see so far that is your approach as well, and that is partly why I am excited to have you here with us.
Thank you! Agreed! As JWs we weren't exposed to contrasting and differing ideas. Even though we wholly believe the Scriptures, we understand things differently. This is wonderful! "Iron sharpens iron" (Prov. 27:17). Under the inspiration of Holy Spirit, the apostle Peter wrote of the apostle Paul's letters (equally inspired of the Holy Spirit): "His letters contain some things that are hard to understand" (2 Pet. 3:16), which is to say, Peter and Paul did not understand everything the same way.

lamesa
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Re: What does it mean to be “Born Again”? (The New Birth or Regeneration)

#8 Post by lamesa » 4 months ago

Get out of her wrote: 4 months ago
Yes Jesus was after all speaking prophetically there at Matthew 24:15, 16, and this would certainly account for the confirmations I already covered as well as others such as found at Hebrews 9:26-28, Revelation 11:3, 7, 11 ,12 12:5 and 13:7, 8. The fact is that throughout the entire history of Jehovah's nation the scriptures consistently pointed ultimately to "SEVEN births" of a figurative "barren woman" in connection with Jehovah's holy nation or kingdom during the time frame of the "appointed times of the nations" ALONE, and by extension seven opportunities for repentant people to SHARE in these births. (Jer 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5) (Isa 54:1-4 66:7, 8)

The FINAL opportunity for humble and repentant humans to become "born again" which was foretold to unfold during the time of an "EIGHTH king" would be distinct from the initial seven largely in the sense that it would have nothing whatsoever to do with human rulership AT ALL, let alone FOREIGN rulers. (Re 17:11) We of course refer to this as the Millennial Reign, and its "pangs of distress" upon this figurative "pregnant woman" are obviously well under way at this very moment. (1Th 5:1-3) Regardless of how well or thoroughly programmed we have been to understand things differently, the fact is that these phenomenons of becoming "born again" ALWAYS coincide with these "births of the barren woman" or what are also referred to as the "comings of the kingdom."
So, what I was trying to point out is that we do not share the same views on eschatology (the study of end times).

As a JW, I wrongly believed the Scriptures teach that Christ will/did (?) return, then fight Armageddon, and then rule the earth for 1,000 years, and then return again (a third coming?) to unbind the devil and wage a final war before throwing the devil and all of his followers into the Second Death. I was unaware that the JW doctrine is a hyper form of Dispensationalism (also "PreTrib" or "Pre-tribulation," as the JW believe the rapture already occurred, i.e., before the Great Tribulation).

When considering eschatology, almost all Christians agree on these three things:

1) There is coming a time of a great finale tribulation such as the world has never seen,
2) After the tribulation, Christ will return to establish His kingdom on earth,
3) There will be a Rapture—a “catching away” from mortality to immortality—for believers as described in John 14:1-3, 1 Cor. 15:51-52, and 1 Thess. 4:16-17. The question is the timing of the Rapture: when will it occur in relation to the Second Coming?

I believe the Millennial Reign is not a literal 1,000 years (but a symbol or sign, like all the other numbers in Revelation), and it began at Christ's first coming when he "bound" (Mark 3:27) the devil, ultimately at his crucifixion.

Six times Rev. 1-7 mentions a period of "a thousand years." An angel binds Satan for "a thousand years" (vv. 1, 2). The result is that Satan cannot deceive the nations for "a thousand years" (v.3). John sees certain souls living and reigning with Christ "a thousand years" (vv. 4, 6). The rest of the dead lived not again until the "thousand years" were finished (v. 5). When the "thousand years" expire, Satan is loosed, deceives the nations, and makes war against the saints (vv. 7).

I believe all of this occurs between Christ's first coming and his last.

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Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: What does it mean to be “Born Again”? (The New Birth or Regeneration)

#9 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 4 months ago

lamesa wrote: 4 months ago

Six times Rev. 1-7 mentions a period of "a thousand years." An angel binds Satan for "a thousand years" (vv. 1, 2). The result is that Satan cannot deceive the nations for "a thousand years" (v.3). John sees certain souls living and reigning with Christ "a thousand years" (vv. 4, 6). The rest of the dead lived not again until the "thousand years" were finished (v. 5). When the "thousand years" expire, Satan is loosed, deceives the nations, and makes war against the saints (vv. 7).

I believe all of this occurs between Christ's first coming and his last.
The problem with this is that it seems the Devil 'has' been deceiving the nations ever since the 1st century, through means of his false churches, world corruption, antichrists, men of lawlessness etc.

The 1000 years (whether literal or symbolic) happen when the first resurrection happens and Christ's chosen elect will rule with him 'upon' the Earth. The first resurrection is'the raising of Christ's kings & priests, which is the same event of the rapture, meeting Jesus in the air, which is followed by the 1000 year reign of a physical presence of Jesus (as the scripture says "on" the Earth), which obviously we are still waiting for (which means everyone is still asleep in the grave, even the Apostles). This reign happens 'after' the first resurrection,a real physical resurrection out the grave, followed by a rapture, which will be witnessed by the whole world, and not before it.

"Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with [the] Anointed One for a thousand years" (Rev 20).
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

lamesa
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Re: What does it mean to be “Born Again”? (The New Birth or Regeneration)

#10 Post by lamesa » 4 months ago

Since End time prophecies (eschatology) is such a huge and highly controversial topic and this thread is on Regeneration, I've opened a new post entitled, "The Millennial Maze."

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