The same God in the Old & New Testament? (Article)

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Proselytiser of Jah
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The same God in the Old & New Testament? (Article)

#1 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 months ago

I just thought I'd link this important article here in this thread so more can see it.

https://proselytiserofyah.wordpress.com ... -same-god/

I wrote this subject recently, to counter the claims going around, especially so in the ex-JW community, that YHWH (Jehovah/Yahweh) is not the same God and Father of Jesus in the New Testament. I've noticed this is a rising trend of "modern day gnosticism" in these communities, to a disturbing degree.

I feel this in part is because many ex-JWs haven't been theologically educated (especially the recent generations, with the dumbing down of the Org's teachings), and so are unfamiliar with the Bible, and easily fall prey to these things. In part, it also may be related to many ex-jws developing an "allergic reaction" to the divine name or identity of the OT God, and feel that because the Org uses it so much, that the God of the OT and his name "must be Satanic" or somehow false as well.

Therefore, I've wrote here my thoughts and scriptural observations on why this is not so. Feel free to share or refer with anyone who you might know subscribes to such a doctrine.

This is a very poisonous belief system being peddled by so many ex-jws and other groups, and it needs to be taken on directly.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

lamesa
Posts: 32
Joined: 3 weeks ago

Re: The same God in the Old & New Testament? (Article)

#2 Post by lamesa » 3 weeks ago

Hello again,

This is a very important subject because our Christian faith (and therefore our eternal destiny) stands or falls on our knowledge of God and the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

May I suggest the following author because his writings are full of the fire of faith and Holy Spirit (for one are seeking to "hear [Jesus'] voice," John 10:27). The author is Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg (1802-1869), who was expert in the ancient languages of the Bible and fought against Rationalism (e.g., Kant) in his day. (His books are challenging to read because they contain many Latin, Hebrew and Greek citations.)

From Page 7:
The Angel of the Lord occurs first in Gen. 16. We perceive from this passage, that wherever an appearance of Jehovah is spoken of, we are to consider this as accomplished through the medium of His Angel. In Gen. 16:7, we receive for the later form of expression, "and Jehovah appeared unto him," the supplementary words, "in His angel ;" as also, e.g., in Gen. 28:1. We are also led to the same result by other facts. In Gen. 28:11-22, Jehovah appears to Jacob. In Gen. 31:13, the Angel of God calls Himself the God of Bethel, in reference to the occurrence related in Gen. 28. In Hos. 12:3, He who wrestled with Jacob is called Elohim, as in Genesis, but in ver. 4, " the Angel," [Hebrew]. Since the prophet had surely no intention of introducing a new historical particular, the ground for the mention of the Angel must lie in the presupposition, that all revelations of God occur through the medium of His Angel.

[NOTE re "angel": the Hebrew word, is translated into English either as "angel" or "messenger."]
https://archive.org/details/commentaryo ... 7/mode/1up
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09NRJZ2J9

Yes, he was a trinitarian, but of the school of Augustine, which means he was honest and distinguished the Father from the Son--constantly in his writings. The reason I recommend his book is because he shows how "the angel of Jehovah [or LORD, or YHWH]" is Jesus Christ in the OT.

See also: ORIGINS OF THE NAME JEHOVAH
https://archive.org/details/penteteuchd ... 1/mode/2up
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09PJX8C5V

lamesa
Posts: 32
Joined: 3 weeks ago

Re: The same God in the Old & New Testament? (Article)

#3 Post by lamesa » 2 weeks ago

Hello,

Thank you for your article(s) on this subject. This is very important because our Christian faith (and therefore our eternal destiny) stands or falls on knowing God and his Son, Jesus Christ (John 17:3).

May I suggest the following author because his writings are full of the fire of faith and Holy Spirit (for are seeking to "hear [Jesus'] voice," John 10:27). The author is Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg (1802-1869), who was schooled in the ancient languages of the Bible and fought against Rationalism (e.g., Kant) in his day. (His books are challenging to read because they contain many Latin, Hebrew and Greek citations, but worth the effort.)

From Page 7:
The Angel of the Lord occurs first in Gen. 16. We perceive from this passage, that wherever an appearance of Jehovah is spoken of, we are to consider this as accomplished through the medium of His Angel. In Gen. 18:1, "and Jehovah appeared unto him [Abraham]" and then we receive for the later form of expression, "in His angel ;" as also, e.g., in Gen. 16:7: "and Jehovah found her [Hagar]," then supplementary words, "and the angel of Jehovah" in verse 10. We are also led to the same result by other facts. In Gen. 28:11-22, Jehovah appears to Jacob. In Gen. 31:13, the Angel of God calls Himself the God of Bethel, in reference to the occurrence related in Gen. 28. In Hosea 12:3, He who wrestled with Jacob is called Elohim, as in Genesis, but in ver. 4, " the Angel." Since the prophet had surely no intention of introducing a new historical particular, the ground for the mention of the Angel must lie in the presupposition, that all revelations of God occur through the medium of His Angel .

[NOTE the Hebrew word for "angel" is translated into English either as "angel" or "messenger."]
https://archive.org/details/commentaryo ... 7/mode/1up


Yes, Hengstenberg was a trinitarian, but of the school of Augustine, which means he was honest and distinguished the Father from the Son--constantly in his writings. The reason I recommend this book is because Hengstenberg shows how "the angel of Jehovah" in the OT is Jesus Christ.


Also, in answer to your points regarding the origin of God's name, Jehovah, this is the most thorough and excellent work you can find, see:
ORIGINS OF THE NAME JEHOVAH
https://archive.org/details/penteteuchd ... 1/mode/2up

lamesa
Posts: 32
Joined: 3 weeks ago

Re: The same God in the Old & New Testament? (Article)

#4 Post by lamesa » 2 weeks ago

A final thought. The author (and I agree on this) explains how Jesus is the "Angel of Jehovah" in the OT, but the designation refers to his office as a messenger, not that he is equal to the angels in any way, compare Hebrews 1:13. I'm sure you'll agree, right?

lamesa
Posts: 32
Joined: 3 weeks ago

Re: The same God in the Old & New Testament? (Article)

#5 Post by lamesa » 2 weeks ago

One more final thought. Compare Genesis 16:7: "and Jehovah found her [Hagar]," with the supplementary words, "and the angel of Jehovah," in verse 10. Now compare where Isaiah saw the glory of Christ in John 12:41, where the OT refers to the glory of Jehovah. Christ, as the angel of Jehovah, represents Jehovah and that's why he appears in both. It's not that Christ is Jehovah, but that he is the angel (aka, messenger) of Jehovah.

lamesa
Posts: 32
Joined: 3 weeks ago

Re: The same God in the Old & New Testament? (Article)

#6 Post by lamesa » 2 weeks ago

This is a rewrite of the above post (not permitted to edit or delete). I've corrected errors:

One more final thought. Compare Genesis 16:7: "the angel of the Jehovah found her [Hagar]," with the supplementary words, "she called the name of the Jehovah that spake unto her," Genesis 16:10. (Who spoke to her, the angel of Jehovah or Jehovah? It clearly states more than once that it was the angel of Jehovah.) Also compare where Isaiah saw the glory of Christ in John 12:41, where the OT refers to the glory of Jehovah. Christ, as the angel of Jehovah, represents Jehovah and that's why he appears in both. It's not that Christ is Jehovah, but that he is the angel (aka, messenger) of Jehovah.

goghtherefore
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Re: The same God in the Old & New Testament? (Article)

#7 Post by goghtherefore » 2 weeks ago

Hi lamesa

I understand the general view of the word angel is messenger yet in my view angels have been described as being or accomplishing many things besides being messengers...(Abaddon the angel of the abyss, the angel that killed 185 thousand Assyrians in one one night etc.)

Personally I try and take care to not think of our Lord Jesus as an angel; (The Word (of God) became the man Jesus, who created angels.) Imo it would be not appropriate to view our and Jesus' Father as an angel because He delivered this message: "This is my Son, whom ... love; with him I am well pleased." when he ... honor and glory from God the Father." as an angel because He delivered this message: (2 Peter 1:17...)

Hebrews 1:4...
…"So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father”? Or again: “I will be His Father, and He will be My Son”? And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all God’s angels worship Him.”…

.02 goghtherefore
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

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Re: The same God in the Old & New Testament? (Article)

#8 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

lamesa wrote: 2 weeks ago Hello,

Thank you for your article(s) on this subject. This is very important because our Christian faith (and therefore our eternal destiny) stands or falls on knowing God and his Son, Jesus Christ (John 17:3).

May I suggest the following author because his writings are full of the fire of faith and Holy Spirit (for are seeking to "hear [Jesus'] voice," John 10:27). The author is Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg (1802-1869), who was schooled in the ancient languages of the Bible and fought against Rationalism (e.g., Kant) in his day. (His books are challenging to read because they contain many Latin, Hebrew and Greek citations, but worth the effort.)

From Page 7:
The Angel of the Lord occurs first in Gen. 16. We perceive from this passage, that wherever an appearance of Jehovah is spoken of, we are to consider this as accomplished through the medium of His Angel. In Gen. 18:1, "and Jehovah appeared unto him [Abraham]" and then we receive for the later form of expression, "in His angel ;" as also, e.g., in Gen. 16:7: "and Jehovah found her [Hagar]," then supplementary words, "and the angel of Jehovah" in verse 10. We are also led to the same result by other facts. In Gen. 28:11-22, Jehovah appears to Jacob. In Gen. 31:13, the Angel of God calls Himself the God of Bethel, in reference to the occurrence related in Gen. 28. In Hosea 12:3, He who wrestled with Jacob is called Elohim, as in Genesis, but in ver. 4, " the Angel." Since the prophet had surely no intention of introducing a new historical particular, the ground for the mention of the Angel must lie in the presupposition, that all revelations of God occur through the medium of His Angel .

[NOTE the Hebrew word for "angel" is translated into English either as "angel" or "messenger."]
https://archive.org/details/commentaryo ... 7/mode/1up


Yes, Hengstenberg was a trinitarian, but of the school of Augustine, which means he was honest and distinguished the Father from the Son--constantly in his writings. The reason I recommend this book is because Hengstenberg shows how "the angel of Jehovah" in the OT is Jesus Christ.


Also, in answer to your points regarding the origin of God's name, Jehovah, this is the most thorough and excellent work you can find, see:
ORIGINS OF THE NAME JEHOVAH
https://archive.org/details/penteteuchd ... 1/mode/2up

I agree with many of your thoughts. I've wrote on the topic myself, on the Jewish theology of "agency" and how it explains why several people in the Bible share the same name and are attributed the same actions, despite being different people.

I feel this is one of the things that confuses people the most, and it leads to claims such as "the Bible contradicts itself" is "inconsistent" and things like the Trinity of course.

Likewise, I also agree that angel means messenger and is not the name of a creature.

You'd probably enjoy reading my various theology articles on all these things, as it sounds as if the things you suggested and the various books you've mentioned, are very similar to my own works and research :) I've wrote about the old way of how the term "god" was used and other things, and understanding these things is vital to understanding the Bible more accurately, as we need to put ourselves in the minds of the writers, and 'their' terminology. Much modern theology is based off of anachronistic reasoning/reading.

I'd also recommend the 2001 translation project (which is an ongoing project always being updated based on information and continual research) which seeks to correct these modern day translation deficiencies.

https://2001translation.org/
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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Re: The same God in the Old & New Testament? (Article)

#9 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

goghtherefore wrote: 2 weeks ago I understand the general view of the word angel is messenger yet in my view angels have been described as being or accomplishing many things besides being messengers...(Abaddon the angel of the abyss, the angel that killed 185 thousand Assyrians in one one night etc.)

Hebrews 1:4...
…"So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father”? Or again: “I will be His Father, and He will be My Son”? And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all God’s angels worship Him.”…

.02 goghtherefore
I believe the term used in the Greek scriptures, "angels" as a word for a creature is a later mistranslation, or a result of the evolution of language. I believe the terms where Angels do things in the Bible, besides giving messages, like when they fight the Devil in Revelation, should be translated as either "gods" or "hosts" (Heavenly armies).

However, we should also consider that a "message" does not only refer to the action of speaking words. For example, the angel that killed the Assyrians, was a "messenger" in that it acted as an "ambassador" for God, and his "message" was death. So we shouldn't misunderstand the way these ancient words were used, and falsely attribute something to these words which they don't actually mean.


The Greek term "angel" is used universally in scripture, in regards to humans as well, but in English it's translated as "messenger" in these instances, which shows the inconsistency of the translators over time, as language has evolved. We do well to remember, "angel" is not once used as the "name of a creature" in the Bible, it's always "messenger", be that a message of words, or an action carried about by that person which is a "message" of a different kind.

Later uses, such as in the NT, as I say, which makes the term "angel" look like it's meant to be used as the name of a creature, I feel are likely due to inconsistency of translation over time.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

lamesa
Posts: 32
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Re: The same God in the Old & New Testament? (Article)

#10 Post by lamesa » 2 weeks ago

goghtherefore wrote: 2 weeks ago Personally I try and take care to not think of our Lord Jesus as an angel; (The Word (of God) became the man Jesus, who created angels.)
.02 goghtherefore
Yes! Oh my, yes! You are so right! I'm sorry that I gave the wrong impression. My point was only to support that Jesus is not Jehovah in the OT, as most are confused about this (as noted by Proselytiser of Jah). So, by showing that Jesus is THE angel (THE word) of Jehovah in the OT, many verses are made more clear, including the ones that I cited.

I believe the apostle John was referring to this fact when he referred to Jesus as "the word of God" (John 1:1).

Also, I've been studying Hengstenberg's (the author mentioned above) commentary on the Gospel of John. Interestingly, he is mute on the "word was God" clause. But I've read plenty of other works on the subject (including Jason David BeDuhn's book, "Truth in Translation": the man is an atheist, so I discount him completely, there is NO Holy Spirit there whatsoever) and the Watchtower argument for "a god" is simply not good. Like so many of their doctrines, it's only half-true. The true part: ancient Greek did not include indefinite articles. The misleading part: The indefinite article is part of the noun. Also, some clauses do have an indefinite article added to them, why? For emphasis. The purpose of adding an indefinite article was for emphasis. So, that brings us back to "word was God." An honest question is, why did the Holy Spirit inspire John to write such an ambiguous/controversial statement? Why has Christ allowed his church to believe a Hellenisitic trinitarian doctrine for 17-18 centuries? I don't know, but it's no longer a stumbling block for me. (Compare: "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood...Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?" (John 6:53-61 NIV).

I read the Reformers and Puritans and their works are full of Holy Spirit. Also, it's clear that God the Father wants us to worship his Son, Jesus Christ (John 9:38). [Note the NWT obscures this by using "obeisance" for proskuneó when referring to Jesus, but "worship" when referring to the Devil. Hmm, I believe the GB are devil worshipers but that's another subject.]

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