Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#61 Post by coccus ilicis » 6 months ago

Bobcat wrote: 6 months ago CI, they invented vowel pointing, but they had a previous basis for the system they came up with, they invented them based on how Hebrew was already spoken. They merely came up with a system to address the lack of vowels in a language that already had a long history.

Everybody else who deals with Hebrew can see this. But not you. And yet you imagine that somehow you are right and everybody else has been fooled. You are a typical Internet "scholar."

Like I said a couple posts above, you are imagining that you, and only you, have solved some problem that never really existed. And then you run with it and come up with all these wacky conclusions that no one else has ever dreamed of. But in doing so you put other people's faith at risk.

Go on with your thread. I won't waste my time with you any longer. IMO, you are beyond reasoning with.

Bobcat

Bobcat, you don't have to worry, if my conclusions are so whacky then it will only put the faith of those who have not received the spirit of truth at risk. Those who do receive that spirit of truth that teaches them all things, stand firm as long as they don't cave in under the pressure of the opinion of the majority, (Jhn 14:15,16,17,25,26).

PS: what's a typical, "internet scholar?"
LRW~

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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#62 Post by Stranger » 6 months ago

coccus ilicis wrote: 6 months ago PS: what's a typical, "internet scholar?"

Hi Coccus,

I would say it is someone who learns everything off the internet and then becomes a legend in their own mind.


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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#63 Post by coccus ilicis » 6 months ago

The Appointed Time of the End, Dan 8:9-27
part 1

What does the prophecy Daniel received in the 3rd year of the last king of Babylon say about the final part of the denunciation in the appointed time of the end? Dan 8:17,19.

Daniel saw a two-horned ram making thrust to the west, the north and the south. This ram pictured the Medo-Persians who conquered Babylon not long thereafter. Next, he saw a one-horned goat, Greece, that battled with the ram and conquered it. On becoming great its horn, Alexander the Great, was broken and four of his generals divided up his kingdom amongst themselves. They fought for ascendency and ultimately two kingdoms prevailed. The Seleucid in the north, and the Ptolemies ruling from Alexandria in the south, (Dan 8:1-8). It was during their kingdoms that the small horn rose up and started to make inroads in the religious sphere toward the east and the decoration. It was this horn that concerned Daniel and concerns those living in the appointed time of the end, (Dan 8:17,19). Concerning this horn, it says: it kept getting greater all the way to the kingdom of the heavens so that it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth and it went trampling them down. (Dan 8:9,10).

After the Jews had returned to Jerusalem and rebuilt the temple, the Persian king Artaxerxes appointed Ezra, a skilled copyist/sopher/scribe to set up an administration to govern Israel. The king ends his decree with these words ... "And you "Ezra according to the wisdom of your God that is in your hand appoint judges that they may continually judge all the people beyond the river even all those knowing the laws of your God and those not knowing them you men will instruct, (Ez 7:1-26). It was at that time that Ezra set up a school of sopherim/scribes to make copies of the Law. And that is when he introduced changes to the holy writings.
Out of extreme (but mistaken) reverence for the Ineffable Name "Jehovah", the ancient custodians of the Sacred Text substituted in many places "Adonai" (see Appendix 4. viii. 2). These, in the A.V. and R.V., are all printed "Lord". In all these places we have printed it "LORD*", marking the word with an asterisk in addition to the note in the margin, to inform the reader of the fact. The official list is given in the Massorah, (§§ 107-115, Ginsburg's edition), contains The 134 Passages where the Sopherim Altered "JEHOVAH" To "ADONAI". The list of these changes can also be found in the 1984 NW Translation with References, Appendix, 1B, page 1562.

This was the start of the growth of this little feminine horn that got greater toward the sun rising and toward the decoration. And she kept getting greater all the way to the army of the heavens so that she caused some of the stars to fall to the earth ... And all the way to the Prince of the army he put on great airs, [she became a dominant he, cf Ezk 16:30], [and from him, [the Prince of princes], [the constant feature was taken away and the established place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an army, [fem.], is given over together with the constant feature because of transgression and she kept throwing truth to the earth, and she did all this and prospered, (Dan 8:9-12).

So what did the replacement of Jehovah with Adonai have to do with the constant feature, and what is the constant feature?

When the Jews inaugurated the rebuilt temple with the Passover, (Ez 6:16,17, 19), they did so in harmony with what it says at Lev 23:5 ... In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month between the two evenings, [cf Ex 12:6], is the Passover to Jehovah. And at Ex 12:14 it says concerning the Passover. And this day must serve as a memorial for you and you must celebrate it as a festival to Jehovah throughout your generations. As a statute to time indefinite, you should celebrate it.

Was this the constant feature referred to at Dan 8:12?

The conversation between two holy ones gives us a clue. One asks, "How long will the vision be of the constant [feature] and the transgression causing desolation to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on." And the other one addresses Daniel, saying: "Until two thousand evenings , [as at Lev 23: 5], and mornings, [as at Gen 1:5 & Ex 12:6], and the holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition, (Dan 8:13,14).

Note: he does not say two thousand three-hundred days, which has been inserted in the Biblehub Interlinear and is also present in some modern translations,i.e. And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed," NKJV.

Image (highlights, arrows & added text mine)
see, 1242. Boqer/mornings,here.

So the constant feature of Dan 8:12 that was given over, was the Passover festival. And the 2300 evenings and mornings the holy ones speak about are 2300 Passover years.

But when did this transgression causing desolation become full-blown, and start? And how does it manifest itself in the appointed time of the end?
LRW~

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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#64 Post by coccus ilicis » 6 months ago

The Appointed Time of the End Dan 8:9-27
part 2

In part 1, above, I asked these questions:
But when did this transgression causing desolation become full-blown, and start? And how does it manifest itself in the appointed time of the end?
And how is it connected with replacing God's name Jehovah with Adonai?
The holy one explains, saying to Daniel: “Understand O son of man that the vision is for the time of the end … Here I am causing you to see in the final part of the denunciation for it is for the appointed time of the end, (Dan 8:17, 19).

And after referring to the four kings that took over from Alexander he says: And in the final part of their kingdom. This refers to when the Seleucid empire and the Ptolemaic kingdom were the only states of any consequence that remained at that time. The Seleucid Empire was a Greek state in Western Asia, during the Hellenistic Period, that existed from 312 BC to 63 BC ... The Ptolemaic Kingdom was an Ancient Greek state based in Egypt during the Hellenistic Period. It was founded in 305 BC by Ptolemy I Soter, a companion of Alexander the Great, and lasted until the death of Cleopatra VII in 30 BC, Wikipedia.

In the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressings , [a plural participle verb, referring to the transgression of Dan 8:13], come to a completion there will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings, (Dan 8:23). This king was Ptolemy II. ...expanding the library at Alexandria, Ptolemy II commissioned a Greek translation of the Hebrew law in what became known as the “Translation of the Seventy,” or more simply, the Septuagint, Ptolemy, Serapis, and the Septuagint.

The Greek Septuagint completed the transgression of the Sopherim in that it removed Jehovah's name entirely, which meant that the Passover no longer commemorated God's name as they were instructed. And has served to subjugate the army of the heavens. They inserted days at Dan 8:14 in the biblehub interlinear, aligning it with the Greek Septuagint. Compare Lev 23:5; Ex 12:13,14; Dan 8:14 in the biblehub interlinear with the biblehub Apostolic Diaglott. From that time onward the Passover only served as a memorial to an unnamed God or LORD.

Even as with the date of the flood, the exact date when this happened is unknown, but it is thought to have been circa 282 BCE.

Image

If the transgressings came to a completion in 282 BC, then that is the date when the count of the 2300 Passover years begins; therefore 283 BC plus 2300 Passover years, brings us to 2018, when the holy place is brought into its right condition, (Dan 8:14).

It says concerning this king. And in a wonderful way he will cause ruin and he will certainly prove successful and do effectively. And he will actually bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones. And according to his insight, he will certainly cause deception to succeed in his hand. And in his heart, he will put on great airs and during freedom from care, he will bring many to ruin. And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without a hand he will be broken.

And after describing the effect this transgression would have in the appointed time of the end, the angelic holy one confirms what he had said earlier about the 2300 Passover years, saying: “And the thing seen concerning the evening and morning is true. And you should keep secret the vision because it is yet for many days, (Dan 8:26). And at Dan 12:4 Daniel is told make secret the words of the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about and the [true] knowledge will become abundant. That time is now.

Even though biblical dating at best is iffy, adding 2300 years to 282 BC we arrive at 2018, exactly 70 years from 1948 when the 8th beast ascended out of the abyss, (Rev 17: 8,11), when the U.S, recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital. See, End Times: Trump and Jerusalem Donald Trump and Jerusalem: US Embassy and Third Temple May 14, 2018: U.S. President Donald Trump honored his promise for the Promised Land and on Israel's 70th anniversary moved the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem. Unlike the presidents before him, Trump is following through. That is their side of the story.

And just as Daniel was told ...until the end there will be war, what is decided upon is desolation. ...Upon the wing of disgusting things will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will keep pouring out, (Dan 9: 26,27). We are indeed living in the straits of times (Dan9:25) even more so than they did prior to WW1 because another World War would mean the end of life on earth. Jehovah will not let that happen, but the world at large does not know this ... Here is where it means endurance for the holy ones, (Rev 13:10).

We know there are two sides to every dispute. And we need to examine the other side of the story in order not to be sucked in. And always keep in mind that the bottom line for news is ratings, which translates into money. And that news purveyors sensationalize, which, at a time such as this translates into public hysteria.

Here are a few articles telling the other side of the story:

Putin explains why Ukraine attack went beyond Donbass. The current crisis in Ukraine started with a revolution in 2014, How Ukraine’s ‘Revolution of Dignity’ led to war, poverty and the rise of the far right

The Nuclear deal with Iran has now been finalized all that is needed is for it to be ratified. But the impending sanctions against Russia might prevent that. Russia says West's sanctions create a 'problem' for Iran nuclear deal 6/3/2022. And just to hand today, 7/3/2022, US Dismisses "Irrelevant" New Russia Demands On Iran Nuclear Deal

Another fly in the ointment is Israel's nuclear weapons: Israel's assumed nuclear weapons program, and the history surrounding it, is characterized by ambiguity. Thus far, that ambiguity has been effectively tolerated. Any formal recognition or acknowledgement of Israel's weapons program could upset the current uneasy balance in the region, potentially spurring nuclear proliferation across the Middle East. Israel's Nuclear Inventory
Also read this pdf file, Israel's Nuclear Weapons Israel's involvement with nuclear technology starts at the founding of the state in 1948. Many talented Jewish scientists immigrated to Palestine during the 1930s and 1940s, in particular, Ernst David Bergmann. He would become the director of the Israeli Atomic Energy Commission and the founder of Israel's efforts to develop nuclear weapons. And that is why Israel is obsessing about Iran obtaining nuclear weapons and may yet make a pre-emptive nuclear strike against Iran, whether the Iran nuclear deal goes through or not.

You might think "This is all politics," but the bible is full of politics with, man dominating man to his injury from time immemorial, (Ec 8:9). However, it also reassures us, because it says concerning this eighth king: But it will be without a hand that he is broken, (Dan 8:25).
LRW~

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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#65 Post by AmosAU » 6 months ago

Hi CI,

Thanks for this information. I need to do some digesting of the many points you bring to light.

Unless we do the digging, we will never understand how many of the texts have been adulterated.

It's also how some words and phrases have had their meanings changed over the many centuries, even from the time of the printing press revolution.

Take for instance the difference in the Hebrew language from the time of Moses until the destruction of Solomon's Temple and the release from Babylonian captivity. Every time a nation has prolonged association with a different culture, some or many things rub off on them. The returning captives, are no exception. If we read the books of Nehemiah and Ezra we can see this was a very real situation in their days.

Regards, Amos.

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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#66 Post by coccus ilicis » 6 months ago

AmosAU wrote: 6 months ago Hi CI,

Thanks for this information. I need to do some digesting of the many points you bring to light.

Unless we do the digging, we will never understand how many of the texts have been adulterated.

It's also how some words and phrases have had their meanings changed over the many centuries, even from the time of the printing press revolution.

Take for instance the difference in the Hebrew language from the time of Moses until the destruction of Solomon's Temple and the release from Babylonian captivity. Every time a nation has prolonged association with a different culture, some or many things rub off on them. The returning captives, are no exception. If we read the books of Nehemiah and Ezra we can see this was a very real situation in their days.

Regards, Amos.
Hi Amos,
Yes, as you say,
Unless we do the digging, we will never understand how many of the texts have been adulterated
And the digging is hard work. But each spadeful reveals a shard of information we may have so far put in the too-hard box. I am currently working on the mountain of decoration as at Dan 11:16,45, and have an inkling it might refer to Mt Ararat of Gen 8:4. The Aid book says ...applied to a region and also a mountain range in what is now eastern Turkey, lying close to the borders of Iran and the USSR. It fits in with the ongoing crisis in Ukraine, but I've still got quite a bit of ground to work over.
LRW~

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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#67 Post by AmosAU » 6 months ago

Hi CI,

Thanks for your reply.
I've just come across this short video that might just shed some loight on the subject at hand.

https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/alphabet ... habets.htm

Geoff Benner talks about the Samarian and Hebrew alphabet.
I have a copy of the Samaritan Pentateuch in Englsh. I've found some differences between the two versions of the Torah. The book form has tbe Samaritan and Hebrew side by side. It includes any difference highllted in bold writing. Some wording is quite subtle and can change, or partially change the meaning of some verses.

It emphasizes what I said yesterday about the Israelites absorbing differences they obseved during their captivity.

Regards, Amos.

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#68 Post by coccus ilicis » 6 months ago

AmosAU wrote: 6 months ago Hi CI,

Thanks for your reply.
I've just come across this short video that might just shed some loight on the subject at hand.

https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/alphabet ... habets.htm

Geoff Benner talks about the Samarian and Hebrew alphabet.
I have a copy of the Samaritan Pentateuch in Englsh. I've found some differences between the two versions of the Torah. The book form has tbe Samaritan and Hebrew side by side. It includes any difference highllted in bold writing. Some wording is quite subtle and can change, or partially change the meaning of some verses.

It emphasizes what I said yesterday about the Israelites absorbing differences they obseved during their captivity.

Regards, Amos.
Hi Amos,

If you have the side by side version of the Samaritan Pentateuch, one way you could check to see if the English rendering has been altered to conform with the status quo or not is to look up some of the verses I have posted above and compare. The 1984 NWT with References still conforms to the status quo to some extent but indicates in its footnotes the variations of different texts it has used, so you could also use that for comparison. The problem lies with how the Hebrew or Aramaic text has been rendered in English, not the original text itself.
LRW~

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#69 Post by coccus ilicis » 6 months ago

coccus ilicis wrote: 6 months ago
AmosAU wrote: 6 months ago Hi CI,

Thanks for your reply.
I've just come across this short video that might just shed some loight on the subject at hand.

https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/alphabet ... habets.htm

Geoff Benner talks about the Samarian and Hebrew alphabet.
I have a copy of the Samaritan Pentateuch in Englsh. I've found some differences between the two versions of the Torah. The book form has tbe Samaritan and Hebrew side by side. It includes any difference highllted in bold writing. Some wording is quite subtle and can change, or partially change the meaning of some verses.

It emphasizes what I said yesterday about the Israelites absorbing differences they obseved during their captivity.

Regards, Amos.
Hi Amos,

If you have the side by side version of the Samaritan Pentateuch, one way you could check to see if the English rendering has been altered to conform with the status quo or not is to look up some of the verses I have posted above and compare. The 1984 NWT with References still conforms to the status quo to some extent but indicates in its footnotes the variations of different texts it has used, so you could also use that for comparison. The problem lies with how the Hebrew or Aramaic text has been rendered in English, not the original text itself.
LRW~

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Re: Revelation – Where we are in the stream of time​

#70 Post by coccus ilicis » 6 months ago

Dan 11:44,45

In post 64 above I said:
Even though biblical dating at best is iffy, adding 2300 years to 282 BC we arrive at 2018, exactly 70 years from 1948 when the 8th beast ascended out of the abyss, (Rev 17: 8,11), when the U.S, recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital. See, End Times: Trump and Jerusalem
That is their side of the story. So where are we in the stream of time?

At Dan 11:44 it says that reports would disturb the king of the north. This was the king of the north after WW2.

Image

Since the collapse of communism in 1991 the U.S. has ruled the roost using sanctions to bully all nations to conform to its rule, (Dan 11:40-43; Rev 13:14-16). Now that Russia and China have recovered and become self-sufficient economic powerhouses they threaten U.S supremacy whose continued dominance is based on the Petrodollar, see post 49, here. But all sanctions have blowback, see How Russia Will Counterpunch the U.S./EU Declaration of War. It is these reports that disturb the king of the north, and he goes forth in a great rage, [using NATO], in order to annihilate and to devote many to destruction. And he will plant his palatial tents [military accoutrements] between the seas,[plural], and the holy mountain of decoration. Where is that?

The current conflict concerns this region of Ukraine.
Image

Which is located here Might the holy mountain of decoration be Mt. Ararat?

Image

In post 51 I indicated that humankind has arrived at its most critical time since its creation because Jesus had said, for then there will be a great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short no flesh would be saved, (Mt 24:21,22). Flesh was saved in Noah's day and at that time God had said that he would never again destroy all living things on man's account. We are now at a juncture when humankind has the power to destroy all flesh. That time is foretold at Dan 9:26,27, see post 64 above. So in what way does what happened in Noah's day synchronise with Dan 11:45.

And in the seventh month on the seventeenth day of the month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat,(Gen 8:4). And Noah built an altar and sacrificed animals to thank God for his deliverance. And when Jehovah smelled the restful/soothing odour he made a covenant with mankind, saying: never again shall I deal a blow to mankind just as I have done ... For all the days the earth continues, seed sowing and harvest ...will never cease ... My rainbow I do give to you for the generations to time indefinite ... and it must serve as a sign of the covenant between me and the earth ...I shall certainly remember my covenant which is between me and you and every living soul among all flesh, (Gen 8:4,20-22; 9:12-17). This is an unconditional covenant or contract God has made with all mankind to time indefinite. And since humankind is now at the brink of destroying all flesh, God steps into man's affairs and cuts this time short. Thus, the mountain of decoration refers to Ararat

And that is why it says at Dan 11:45 that when the king of the north plants his military accoutrements between the seas and the mountain of Decoration ...he will have come all the way to his end and there will be no helper for him. In other words, he will not be allowed to wage a war that would destroy all flesh (cf. Mt 24: 21, 22), because such an action would invalidate Jehovah's covenant with all flesh. To hear what Putin has to say about his incursion into Ukraine watch this, Putin explains why Ukraine attack went beyond Donbas, (Donetsk).

But what about the covenant he made with Abraham and Israel, (Gen 22:18;32:28)? The one the king of the north, the U.S. invoked by recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital. And since Jerusalem is legally mandated as international territory, his actions imply that Jerusalem is the world's capital. What about that covenant and that ark that enshrined it, (Rev 11:19)?
LRW~

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