Was Hitler Born Evil or did circumstances push him to be evil

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Daniel12
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Was Hitler Born Evil or did circumstances push him to be evil

#1 Post by Daniel12 » 1 year ago

There is no doubt that under Hitler reign, millions of people were murdered.

But Hitler personally did not gas or shoot any of the captives during the Nazi reign.

Hitler did not invent the hatred of Jews.

Jews in Europe had been victims of discrimination and persecution since the Middle Ages, often for religious reasons. :evil:

Christians saw the Jewish faith as an aberration that had to be quashed. :twisted:

Jews were sometimes forced to convert or they were not allowed to practice certain professions.The origin of Hitler's hatred of Jews is not clear. In Mein Kampf, he described his development into an antisemite as the result of a long, personal struggle.

What we do know is that several Austrian politicians greatly influenced Hitler's thinking. The first, Georg Ritter von Schönerer a German nationalist. He believed that the German-speaking regions of Austria-Hungary should be added to the German empire. He also felt that Jews could never be fully-fledged German citizens.

Others started influencing Hitler's view of the world as an arena for the permanent struggle between peoples. In time Hitler started dividing the world population into high and low races. The Germans belonged to the high peoples and the Jews to the low ones. He also had specific notions about other peoples. The Slavic people, for instance, were cast as inferior, predestined to be dominated.

In time Hitler felt that the German people could only be strong if they were 'pure'.

As a consequence, people with hereditary diseases were considered harmful. These included people with physical or mental disabilities, as well as alcoholics and 'incorrigible' criminals. Once the Nazis had come to power, these ideas led to the forced sterilization and killing of human beings.

Now imagine Hitler was not born in Germany but instead in the USA and he never was introduced to the idea of a pure race of people. Never introduce to the Idea that Jews were vermin. There is not doubt that WW2 and all the atrocities would have never happened.

To get a better understanding just imagine if you were NEVER INTRODUCE TO THE WATCHTOWER, ----How do you thing your life would have turned out?? :o

Better yet, imagine you were born in the middle east under parents, grandparents and husband or wife who were die hard ISIS. How do you think your life would of turn out? Should you be liable to everlasting death if you committed evil atrocities and were taught from birth by your own family and friends and lovers- that such executions of apostates were for the Good of all and approved by God??

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ke8oqeEEkKA/ ... ldiers.jpg

I don't believe Hitler was born evil, I think circumstances led him to a situation that help caused millions of deaths to innocent victims. But others were more responsible for prepping him to be the man he turned out to be and the situation in Germany helped him attain the power to do evil.

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menrov
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Re: Was Hitler Born Evil or did circumstances push him to be evil

#2 Post by menrov » 1 year ago

Hi, I guess it can go both ways if one is born in a violent environment: you either follow or go opposite direction. I believe every born child is innocent and has no intention to be "evil". However, science has shown that people can have a deficiency in their brains, in particular in the part where emotions are developed.As a result, their emotions react differently to harm and pain, both to themselves and others. You have criminals who have no feelings at all about the things they have done. Also, there was some research done into CEO's and that type of leaders. The conclusion: many of them seem to be a type psychopath, insensitive to emotions from others and are very goal driven, their own goals.

I do not know enough about Hitler to make a judgment. What I do see is that millions of innocent people (men, women, children), both religious and non-religious, have suffered incredibly and died. For what purpose? Just because one or a few psychopaths started to pursue their ideas and nothing or nobody could stop them in order to protect the innocent.

Cheers


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Bruno
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Re: Was Hitler Born Evil or did circumstances push him to be evil

#4 Post by Bruno » 1 year ago

Daniel before you go back to work have a read of this book. I believe it is a good investment :)

A monumental theological achievement
Reviewed in the United States on September 9, 2019
Verified Purchase
I came across the Kindle version of David Bentley Hart's "That All Shall Be Saved" after reading Hans Urs von Balthasar's celebrated "Dare We Hope: 'That All Men Be Saved'?"—a book that, even by expressing tepid theological optimism for universal salvation, does not cease to draw the ire of certain conservative Catholics. From Balthasar's book it became clear to me that a set of texts exist in the New Testament which appear to suggest that all persons, at the end of time, will indeed be saved (e.g. John 12:32), but Balthasar believed that these texts needed to be read against others that appear to suggest the possibility of eternal hellfire (e.g. Matthew 3:12).

Hart, by contrast, does not offer his readers a reluctant optimism, but makes an unapologetically full-throated and thoroughly logical argument for the eventual salvation of all. He argues that anything less would be inconsistent with God's very identity as the Good subsisting in itself, insisting that the received view—that a hell does exist where human persons and other rational beings are forever tortured—is nothing less than morally repugnant. Indeed: "Can we imagine—logically, I mean, not merely intuitively—that someone still in torment after a trillion ages, or then a trillion trillion, or then a trillion vigintillion, is in any meaningful sense the same agent who contracted some measurable quantity of personal guilt in that tiny, ever more vanishingly insubstantial gleam of an instant that constituted his or her terrestrial life? And can we do this even while realizing that, at that point, his or her sufferings have in a sense only just begun, and in fact will always have only just begun? What extraordinary violence we must do both to our reason and to our moral intelligence."

Hart offers a series of four meditations to advance his point, each presenting a different argument. The first relies upon the moral implications of creatio ex nihilo, the second draws upon Scripture, the third makes an argument on the basis of personhood, and the fourth challenges the view that hell is a necessary possibility incurred by human freedom. Each of his meditations was earth-shattering in its deconstruction of the prevailing theological wisdom, but it was the last that really shook me. In the theological circles that I frequent, the existence of an eternal hell is typically justified on the basis of God's respecting human freedom—on this view, hell is possible because it is the logical consequence of human freedom, which entails the possibility of rejecting God. Thus, given human immortality, there must be some place to which those who have rejected God descend after death. However, as Hart so gloriously points out, this argument is incompatible with another theological/philosophical idea that those in full possession of their rational faculties will choose the good. Someone with perfect information and free of neuroses and other impediments will choose the good, because rationality is inescapably oriented toward goodness—if a person dying of thirst rejected water, we would not say that that person had made a free, rational choice to do so, but rather that the person was insane. The choice to reject God must only be possible in the context in which some impediment exists to either freedom or rationality, and therefore, the choice to reject God utterly can never be free; it must always be the consequence of some imperfection that, in fact, restricts freedom. Our freedom is oriented toward the all-pervading and transcendent Good, toward God himself; no 'free' choice to reject God can logically ever be made, and thus nobody can ever freely choose hell.

I will have to contemplate and process Hart's theological achievement in this volume for some time longer. Not only does he challenge the received opinion, but does so in a way that clearly offers universal salvation as the most complete, most appropriate, most self-evidently correct culmination to God's act of creating. This is a remarkable volume, an arrestingly compelling challenge to the overwheming theological consensus, that any student of theology should read and contemplate deeply.
Karl

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Re: Was Hitler Born Evil or did circumstances push him to be evil

#5 Post by Bobcat » 1 year ago

Hi Bruno,

Your quote sites Jn 12:32 which refers to "all people" (ESV, NET; Greek πάντας; pantas) being drawn to Christ. But the online Greek dictionary available at NetBible.Org at this verse points out:
The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, . . .

Coincidentally, the NWT has "all sorts of men ..." at Jn 12:32, and it offers this similar marginal note as above:
all sorts of men: Or “people of all sorts.” Jesus declares that he will draw people of all backgrounds to himself, regardless of nationality, race, or economic status. (Ac 10:34, 35; Rev 7:9, 10; see study note on Jn 6:44.) It is worth noting that on this occasion, “some Greeks” worshipping at the temple wanted to see Jesus. (See study note on Jn 12:20.) Many translations render the Greek word pas (“everyone; all [people]”) in a way that indicates that every human will ultimately be drawn to Jesus. This idea, however, would not agree with the rest of the inspired Scriptures. (Ps 145:20; Mt 7:13; Lu 2:34; 2Th 1:9) While the Greek word literally means “all; everyone” (Rom 5:12), Mt 5:11 and Ac 10:12 clearly show that it can mean “every sort” or “all sorts”; in these verses many translations use renderings such as “every sort of; all kinds of.”​—Jn 1:7; 1Ti 2:4.

The author of the quote you used has failed to take that linguistic fact into account in connection with pantas at Jn 12:32, and thus, draws an erroneous conclusion. Although, it does appear that he is also drawing his conclusion based on a false dichotomy: Salvation or Hell Fire. He correctly sees hell fire as opposed to God's personality, but incorrectly thinks that salvation must then be the only possible alternative.

Having said that, I was interested in viewing the three part videos on physics and free will that you linked to. Thanks for linking to them.


Bobcat

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Bruno
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Re: Was Hitler Born Evil or did circumstances push him to be evil

#6 Post by Bruno » 1 year ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 year ago
Hi Bruno,

Your quote sites Jn 12:32 which refers to "all people" (ESV, NET; Greek πάντας; pantas) being drawn to Christ. But the online Greek dictionary available at NetBible.Org at this verse points out:
The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, . . .

Coincidentally, the NWT has "all sorts of men ..." at Jn 12:32, and it offers this similar marginal note as above:
all sorts of men: Or “people of all sorts.” Jesus declares that he will draw people of all backgrounds to himself, regardless of nationality, race, or economic status. (Ac 10:34, 35; Rev 7:9, 10; see study note on Jn 6:44.) It is worth noting that on this occasion, “some Greeks” worshipping at the temple wanted to see Jesus. (See study note on Jn 12:20.) Many translations render the Greek word pas (“everyone; all [people]”) in a way that indicates that every human will ultimately be drawn to Jesus. This idea, however, would not agree with the rest of the inspired Scriptures. (Ps 145:20; Mt 7:13; Lu 2:34; 2Th 1:9) While the Greek word literally means “all; everyone” (Rom 5:12), Mt 5:11 and Ac 10:12 clearly show that it can mean “every sort” or “all sorts”; in these verses many translations use renderings such as “every sort of; all kinds of.”​—Jn 1:7; 1Ti 2:4.

The author of the quote you used has failed to take that linguistic fact into account in connection with pantas at Jn 12:32, and thus, draws an erroneous conclusion. Although, it does appear that he is also drawing his conclusion based on a false dichotomy: Salvation or Hell Fire. He correctly sees hell fire as opposed to God's personality, but incorrectly thinks that salvation must then be the only possible alternative.

Having said that, I was interested in viewing the three part videos on physics and free will that you linked to. Thanks for linking to them.


Bobcat
Hi Bobcat,
I agree with what you said. The word “All” can mean different things depending upon a number of variables. The most important of which is the following.

Hebrews 4:12 New International Version
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

In the same way poetry speaks to people in different ways it is factually true to say that the scriptures also draws out different interpretations from different hearts. To be able to perform this function, the scriptures, just like poetry, need to be written in such a way as to be able to penetrate both the soul and spirit.

I think this becomes very apparent in how different peoples have, over centuries, tried to understand the relationship between the father and the son.
Matthew 11:27 New International Version
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Have a listen to the rational presented by this following lady and also the one provided by NT Wright who follows on from her.
https://youtu.be/ITk_DwjtIpY?t=160
Karl

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Bruno
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Re: Was Hitler Born Evil or did circumstances push him to be evil

#7 Post by Bruno » 1 year ago

On the subject of poetry, I think just like with mathematics if the solution isn't beautiful, then there's something wrong. Now I'm no poet nor am I a mathematician but if there is one thing Danial has taught me its how to recognize beauty,
viewtopic.php?p=34903#p34903

Here is a little wisdom from a man who knows his way around both a math book and poetry book, Apollos :)

Hi Bruno

I'm glad you brought this up. While it's not absolute proof of something to think about it in these terms I personally think it holds a lot of weight.

It seems God create mathematics (at the heart of everything material we know) in such a way that proof tends to be beautiful and elegant. I like the way the second world president of Mensa put it:
"When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty. I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong. "

Buckminster Fuller (1895-1983)
The point you make about God's solution is one that was a great influence for me in breaking free of JW thinking. There was a part of it that on an emotional level didn't jibe. In the closest terms we can relate to it comes down to whether the greatest story ever told is a story of child-sacrifice or self-sacrifice. And since God is arguably setting the perfect example for us in all things only one of these two options makes complete sense.

Apollos

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2864&hilit=bruce&start=10#p34293
Karl

Daniel12
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Re: Was Hitler Born Evil or did circumstances push him to be evil

#8 Post by Daniel12 » 1 year ago

Hey Bruno :)

I have to leave for a while because I'm spending to much time posting on websites and I need to stop and do some other stuff. :D

But one of my sisters had her computer on an I just glanced at some of the websites I visit every day. It's addictive. :(

I did notice something you posted.

viewtopic.php?p=34903#p34903

It says on the link I posted that a year ago. Strange that it has been that long. :shock:

It caught my attention because I was just thinking of that last night in my bed. It was almost word for word that I was thinking the same thing.
So the first thing she would do if she was all powerful and able to do anything she wanted, then on the first day of saving mankind---- she would remove all weapons earth wide. Every Gun, every bomb, ever nuclear missiles would disappear overnight whether in some hidden silo or some submarine deep in the ocean. Fighting armies would wake up the next morning to continue the war only to find all the machine guns, ARs, pistols and weaponized knives have disappeared. People planning to rob a bank would all of sudden find themselves without their guns.

Imagine if this happened in one day EARTH WIDE. Imagine the frenzy chat in all the social networks outlets. Imagine the news earth wide where the news casters asked, “What has happen to all the guns?”

Imagine all the world leaders of every country wondering if they are going to be attack because they still haven’t figured out what is happening. Imagine some countries decide that they need to get on the ball and start manufacturing guns but as soon as they get the machinery going, it disappears into thin air. No one in all the earth is able to manufacture any weapons.

Imagine what the world will be like this first day that God finally intervenes in man’s affairs. There would be confusion but the mass killings of millions that happen every day would stop abruptly and many would have no idea what is happening.

The second day something else extraordinary would happen. Every sick person on the earth, whether with cancer, leprosy, Alzheimer, blind, deaf, mute or whatever ailing disease a person might have, ----It would be gone. This would include any mental illness and delusion because of the brain not being wired properly that affects serial killers. Every single person in every single hospital earth wide would be walking out in good health and reuniting with their family.

Imagine the frenzy in Facebook, twitter, and all social networks as story after story starts being relayed.
There would be a mixture of emotions by this time. Some would have no idea what is happening. There would be your usual men and women with their conspiracy theories with Trump as always. And some would feel God was finally stepping in.

The third day as people started waking up in the morning and going to the bathroom and looking in the mirror, they would be confused as they would see a different person. A person 90 years old and bald and border line on ugliness is now the possessor of perfection.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/fd/bd/7b/fdbd ... ul-men.jpg

No woman on earth ever has to think of why she didn’t inherit beauty, as she saw on this new day, the new body and face that she has been given.

https://www.downgraf.com/wp-content/upl ... on-003.jpg

Remember, when someone inherits beauty and someone else doesn’t, it becomes a cause for jealousy, contention and strife for everyone around especially the husband.

Geneisi 29; Now Laban had two daughters; the name of the older was Leah, and the name of the younger was Rachel. Leah had weak and dull eyes, but Rachel had a lovely figure and was beautiful.

Genesis 49:9 Jacob said to Pharaoh, “The years of my pilgrimage are a hundred and thirty. Few and unpleasant have been the years of my life,

Something else happens on this day. No male and female will have to contend with the struggle of getting a male or female body but with hormones that produce a desire contrary to the body they were given.

Day four, someone knocks on the door. They open the door and this child is standing there;

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXgVTJeWwAEQzzt.jpg

Do you recognize her? It’s the same girl you posted Bruno but in a different situation.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... -Sudan.jpg

So far we are just 4 days into the week. Can you imagine the result this would have on all humans? It’s not perfect yet, but we are getting there.

Banks disappear, White house disappeared, Mansions disappeared, Deeds of property ownership disappeared. Films that portray killing, pornography, violence, etc., just disappear. Churches and websites discussing what God wants and doesn’t want disappear. No more Bruno on this website, because Bruno picks up farming and is to busy planting potatoes and milking cows.

And all WITHOUT having to shed one drop of blood.

Hundreds of years go by and people start noticing that no one is getting old or dying. Now for the first time in human history humans have an opportunity to TASTE what life is like under God’s care. There is no misinformation on what humans are expected to do. There is no human telling another human what God wants for worship or what sacrifice he demands.

Hosea 6:6 Living Bible (TLB) “I don’t want your sacrifices—I want your love; I don’t want your offerings—I want you to know me.

It’s interesting that us mere kids can come up with a better solution in trying to save mankind then some who feel that God has to kill a bunch of humans for not obeying him in a world that is so confusing that you have literally millions of differing views on what God wants.

Why is it that some feel blood has to be spilled before any good comes our way??
You know Bruno, although I am getting to the point of not believing that there is a God out there that cares for humanity,
It sure is nice to meditate on what I wrote a year ago. I has a calming affect on one's soul. :D

It's kind of strange and weird that something I wrote has a calming effect on me . I've never heard of a writer getting comfort by something he himself wrote. :shock:

I decided that even though I personally don't believe anymore, I will comfort my mom and sisters, and anyone I know and love who might die this year, with the idea I wrote a year ago. When I tell them that's what is going to happen in the future, It gives them a lot of comfort and peace. You can see it in their faces. :D

And me seeing the smile on their faces when I tell them that's how it's going to be one day, is worth the price of them not knowing how I really feel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXYvwEeWrm8

See you later on this year Bruno, if we're both still around. :D

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Bruno
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Re: Was Hitler Born Evil or did circumstances push him to be evil

#9 Post by Bruno » 1 year ago

Daniel12 wrote:
1 year ago

See you later on this year Bruno, if we're both still around. :D
Hi Daniel,

Don't disappear just yet! I have a really interesting film you need to watch. Your family may like it as well :) It's a romantic comedy with a very deep underlying message. I'm going to tie it in with quantum physics and the origin of the universe. Why an observer was necessary! It also involves free will, chance, and an observers foresight. It could also say something about the permission of evil. It's a complicated juggling act. Just give me a little time :) Stay tuned...
Karl

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Bruno
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Re: Was Hitler Born Evil or did circumstances push him to be evil

#10 Post by Bruno » 1 year ago

Daniel12 wrote:
1 year ago

And me seeing the smile on their faces when I tell them that's how it's going to be one day, is worth the price of them not knowing how I really feel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXYvwEeWrm8

See you later on this year Bruno, if we're both still around. :D
Hi Daniel,

I'm still around. The thing about this invisible enemy is that it needs a visible host to operate in. Making the invisible enemy visible (Matthew 10:26).

You know David Brent believed he was lying in that video. Without realizing it, he may actually have been speaking the truth. So you just might get away with it Daniel.

Anyway, Mrs Bruno forced me to watch a film recently. In the end I was glad I did as it touched on a lot of different conversations we had here on DTT.

Let me start from the beginning. The prevailing thinking at the moment regarding the origins of our universe is that it’s the product of a quantum wave function. Very simply, a quantum wave can be thought of an infinite source of possibilities from which our particular universe with its very specific set of laws, came out of. This quantum wave could have formed, and according to may cosmologist, did form an infinite number of universes each with a different set of laws unique to them (Multiverse). One of the things which is amazing about the quantum world is that the act of observing the quantum wave has a determining effect on the outcome.

Dave Chalmers explains it briefly here
https://youtu.be/2GGkbForfvo?t=992

Consciousness seems to play a fundamental role in determining the type of universe which we find ourselves in today. It’s a little spooky but everything about the quantum world is kinda spooky.
So what has all this got to do with anything. I want to refer back to the free will thread where I mentioned the following,
God has knowledge of all future events. So He knows all the potential choices we are going to make and all the events which will play a role in influencing why we make those decisions.

Often in order to explain why the universe is so finely tuned to support life physicists postulate a multi universe hypothesis. They claim there may be an infinite number of universes with infinite possible settings. Ours just happens to be the lucky one with all the right settings for life to be possible. One alternative is God knew the precise settings required to produce a universe which can sustain life and so choose to set them correctly.

So God may have used his knowledge of all possible future events in order to select and permit a precise series of events to occur. A series of events which may ultimately result in the maximal number of people that eventually choose to submit to him. God’s permission of what seems to be maximal evil may have been the best route, of all the many available routes, to ultimately save the maximum number of people. Unfortunately the worst may still be to come.
Also God’s nature may have compelled him to select this particular world and its events, as the ends would justify the means, especially if any other version of this world would have resulted in less people choosing submission to God.

I’m going to borrow from Apollos again here

Yes, there is the conditional factor of every knee bending to the Lord (thanks for awesome post @phoebe) so free-will is involved, but if we picture humanity in 6000 years from now, will they know a God who desired to save all but only saved some, or is it possible that this incredibly difficult conundrum of evil and suffering can be explained in hindsight by a high price being paid in order to obtain the highest possible return in universal salvation? And how would we perceive God in hindsight if this highest possible outcome had NOT been obtained despite the highest price having been paid?
viewtopic.php?p=36163#p36163

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=416&hilit=backward+ ... =70#p37386
Daniel this is where I attempt to link all this in with a film which encapsulates the role God plays in choosing the place settings at a banquet (Admittedly that may not be what the director was trying to portray). Out of all the possible options, God may have known exactly how to set the table in order to bring about the best outcome for the greatest number of people (1 Peter 1:20; 1 Corinthians 13:8).
If Love wins in the end, then it may ultimately justify the means. But we may only be able to make sense of the end in light of what happened in the beginning. If you watch the film it will hopefully make more sense :)

The film can be a little naughty in places as It portrays the best and worst within humans as they fumble their way through life. There is even a character who has similar traits to David Brent from the tv series The Office. I noticed you seem to like him :) It has an interesting mix of Irish humour, English awkwardness and of course, a beautiful American democrat ;)

If you think all this is ridicules then you are in good company.
https://youtu.be/clf6cS2qVKI?t=210

Anyway, the film is called Love Wedding Repeat it came out on Netflik a few days ago. Take a break from work and have look.
Karl

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