Free Will

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Marina
Posts: 2142
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Re: Free Will

#281 Post by Marina » 1 year ago

Stranger wrote:
1 year ago
BTW, I read the article that you posted on Gustave Le Bon, very interesting type of guy he was.

That picture of him in 1914 was interesting as well, especially the curtains he was standing in front of.
What about the curtains?
Marina

Stranger
Posts: 1901
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Re: Free Will

#282 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

Marina wrote,
You want to check what exact time period Bobcat is referring to.

Hopefully it's when he was every boy's hero and every lady's dream. But I'm afraid to ask. :lol:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=anvz-AES2cY


Stranger

Marina
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Re: Free Will

#283 Post by Marina » 1 year ago

Stranger - If you found Le Bon interesting - you will similarly find Wilfred Trotter interesting too. Note he wrote about the herd instinct and took an interest in beehives.


Trotter argued that gregariousness was an instinct, and studied beehives, flocks of sheep and wolf packs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilfred_Trotter
Marina

Marina
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Re: Free Will

#284 Post by Marina » 1 year ago

I have found out a little more about Smurf Girl - her attitude is that of someone who views Jehovah as bad because of what the WBTS has done in Jehovah's name. That troubles me and upsets me.

On the other hand there are certain things she says that sound like they could be true. After all, my own experience shows that WBTS is apostate to Jehovah and I have known congregations close down due to child abuse. The abuse was being covered over for some time, then some brothers stepped in to sort things out.

I guess its a real mixed up mess and I apologise for stirring things up.

And yes Karl, I know the Free Masons are a business network in part but some also have roles such as Grand Wizard. I also know they can be kind and charitable. A worshipful master used to buy ice creams for poor children and give away his belonging to the poor. He became a mason, I think, because like his friends he didn't want to see another war and wanted to be part of building a better society, one where widows and orphans were cared for. At a certain point in his life, business difficulties meant he could not afford to pay those who worked for him their wages. Letting the men down was devastating to him. He had lost his faith in the Bible and went off and killed himself because of this.

I have been told that this man would definitely had listened to me if he had lived long enough and waited for me to grow up and I would have shaken him until his teeth rattled to get some sense into him and help him revive his faith in God. Cause I really loved my dad.
Marina

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Re: Free Will

#285 Post by Stranger » 1 year ago

Marina wrote,
I have been told that this man would definitely had listened to me if he had lived long enough and waited for me to grow up and I would have shaken him until his teeth rattled to get some sense into him and help him revive his faith in God. Cause I really loved my dad.
Hi Marina,

Such a touching experience to share Marina, I had to look for the Kleenex, yes to wipe a tear('s) off my cheeks. I'm honestly humbled at your experience, and now even more so at your strength and integrity to carry on. I feel sure that your Dad will one day be able to see what a fine little girl you turned out to be, and that will be a glorious day, for you and him.

From what I know, you have been battle tested and battle proven!

Thank you for being the lady you are.


Respectfully,


Stranger

Phoebe
Posts: 950
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Re: Free Will

#286 Post by Phoebe » 1 year ago

Marina.....no words, but my sisterly love....winging its way across the oceans ❤️

We will all hold each other’s hands when Heaven meets Earth in the ultimate reconciliation and Our Lord’s will done, His work victorious - truly!
He has/is/will undo the works of the lie ☀️

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Bruno
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Re: Free Will

#287 Post by Bruno » 1 year ago

Marina wrote:
1 year ago
He had lost his faith in the Bible and went off and killed himself because of this.

I have been told that this man would definitely had listened to me if he had lived long enough and waited for me to grow up and I would have shaken him until his teeth rattled to get some sense into him and help him revive his faith in God. Cause I really loved my dad.
Hi Marina,

I don't doubt you would have brought him to his senses. As Daniel12 said it's a crazy and confused world we live in. It's very easy to lose our way.
Thankfully once lost doesn't mean always lost.

Luke 15:24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

There are no shortage of bright lights on hand to help the lost find their way again. https://images.unsplash.com/photo-15274 ... =1000&q=80

Matthew 5:15 You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a basket. Instead, they set it on a lampstand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.…
Karl

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Bruno
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Re: Free Will

#288 Post by Bruno » 1 year ago

If you can forget about the fact this man is part of the Catholic church and just listen to his words he makes some very good points.

There are certain intellectual and moral truths which define us, and we will find our authentic freedom by aligning ourselves with these fundamental truths.
He talks about how we can be delightfully free while at the same time constrained by objective rules. He uses the idea of the joy we get playing a musical instrument or playing a sport to illustrate his thought.

He talks about it around the 14:55 minute mark

https://youtu.be/Pa_1GQHaGq4?t=955
Karl

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Bruno
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Re: Free Will

#289 Post by Bruno » 1 year ago

Here is an interesting article which explains how some of the early church fathers viewed the struggle between free will and God's love. (The green bits are me :) )

It's either Primacy of God's love over primacy of the will or as Vox Ratio believes (I think) primacy of the will over the primacy of God's love.

Seeing is not only believing: for Paul (as for Plato before him) seeing is finally loving!

John 20:28-29 Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Vox Ratio replied, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”…


Apokatastasis – Ultimate Redemption

For the church fathers—and arguably Christ and Paul—a higher faculty than will reigns in both God and his children. The Greek word for this was nous. The Greek nous on the God-side is similar to the idea of logos—the ordering principle of the universe, the divine mind, but not as it so often mistranslated, mere ‘reason.’ This is to read the Greeks through the rationalist lenses of the Enlightenment, as if Plato et al were pre-incarnate Cartesians (i.e. disciples of Rene Descartes).

Rather, the Apostle John and St Paul, along with their disciples, especially in the Alexandrian school, regarded love as the very essence of God’s nature. I.e., “God is love”—in and by and through this love, the logos/nous created, ordered and permeates the universe. Then, of course, this same divine logos/nous became flesh to reveal God as love and love as God’s primary disposition to the world.

Corresponding to the divine nous, church fathers like Gregory of Nyssa taught that the image of God in every human being—the thumbprint of his God’s nous— establishes the human nous (sometimes translated mind, heart or spirit). This nous is the spiritual organ that turns towards and receives the overtures of divine love. That is, God created each of us with a human nous that naturally corresponds, responds and interacts with God’s nous. In other words, God has given us hearts that respond by nature to His Heart for us. He has planted within every one of his children a capacity for love that is perfectly designed to respond to God’s love when we encounter it. This is the default mode of the true humanity: not a neutral freedom of will to respond to or reject God, but a responsive propensity—a willingness of heart—to love the Lover when we see that Love for who and what he is.

The biblical metaphors for the nous are either the heart that loves or the eye that sees—these are one and the same. Seeing is not only believing: for Paul (as for Plato before him) seeing is finally loving. For Paul, conversion is turning to see and thus, to love. Repentance isn’t just re-thinking, but re-seeing and therefore, re-loving. When the nous is freed (unchained) to turn and behold, it does not choose—does not will— to believe or to love. It just does what it was always created to do: it sees, it believes, it loves.

Of course, in this epoch, there’s a problem. In New Testament literature, the eyes of the heart are variously described as ‘veiled’ so that we cannot believe; or ‘blinded’ so that we cannot see; or diseased such that we need ‘eye salve, so that we can see.’ Elsewhere they are gazing in the wrong direction and need to turn (repent, convert) in order to ‘behold’ the glory of God in the face of Christ, who says ‘Let there be light’ in our hearts so that we ‘see’—we love and respond.

When the God-given eyes of the nous are unveiled, healed and turned toward the Sun of Love, we do not merely revert to a state of immature innocence like Adam and Eve. Rather, we are empowered to see the truth of Love without the delusions and illusions that formerly distorted our vision. We aren’t merely restored to some kind of neutral ‘free will’ that comes or goes as it desires, but rather, to a native state of desire fulfilled in the One whom are hearts were created to desire.

Taking Paul as our model, I see very little ‘will’ at play in his conversion. When he ‘saw the light,’ God did not make him believe (overriding his will), nor did Paul choose to believe (exercising his will). The entire conversion transcended the faculty of will—Paul simply saw, and seeing, was transformed. He went from hating to loving, from willful to willing, and from unbelieving to believing.

Now imagine this: at the coming of the Lord, Isaiah says ‘every eye shall see him!’ Not the physical eyes gazing at a literal Warrior flying across the sky overhead or across our flat screen TV’s on cable news. But rather, what if the eyes of every heart (nous) shall be opened, unveiled and healed to see Christ as Paul saw him? What would happen? Wouldn’t every knee bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, just as Paul did? In such an encounter, would God violate our wills and force us to our knees? NO. Or would we choose whether or not to bow the willing knee in worship? I doubt it. Paul himself imagines us all falling to our knees as he did, because we too will see the truth, and in seeing the truth, our spiritual eyes (our hearts), finally free, will do what they were created to do—they will respond in love.

This implies that our resistance to the Gospel now is a failure of—or damage to— our eyes/hearts/nous to perceive the truth of the love, truth and beauty of our Saviour. When the love of God removes the veil over our hearts, when his love heals our diseased and blinded eyes—we shall see him, love him and remarkably, ‘become like him, for we shall see him as he is.’ As author Caleb Miller pointed out to me from 1 John 3, beholding is becoming and theosis is realized.

This, then, is how someone like Paul the Apostle or Gregory could imagine universal redemption (apokatastasis) without stumbling over the issue of free will. They saw the nous enlightened by Love to love – as a result of a revelation of Jesus, as opposed to coercion by election. In this model then, the will is secondary to love and serves love, rather than choosing to love or not to love.

This latter view appeals to me. For both biblical and ecclesial reasons, I still personally still hold to my hopeful inclusivism. Yet I feel it’s important to recognize an important truth here: that some universalists, especially some of the early fathers, predate our obsession with the primacy of the will. They taught an ultimate reconciliation that circumvented the problems associated with unilateral election. For this reason, I believe we can affirm them as conversation partners without assuming the problem of the will must be a deal-killer in our discussions with universalists.

https://www.ptm.org/free-will-nous-and-divine-judgmen
Karl

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Bruno
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Re: Free Will

#290 Post by Bruno » 1 year ago

Here is a great talk about the powers on the internet which have been very successful at influencing all of us. If you think you are free to choose you may need to think again. forewarned is forearmed. Protect that heel :)

https://www.ted.com/talks/carole_cadwal ... edcomshare
Karl

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