Are Gay People Born Gay?

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Stranger
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Re: Are Gay People Born Gay?

#21 Post by Stranger » 2 years ago

Deborah's Tree Wrote,
Remember we are to love even our enemies. How then can we refuse anyone?
We don't refuse anyone, we don't judge anyone, but we do judge for our own self which lifestyle we choose to live. If you want to believe that the Lord promotes gay lifestyles that's okay and that's your right, but don't judge me for what I Believe the Lord promotes. When I choose not to be a part of gay lib that's not because I'm judging any one in particular except myself which is perfectly fine with Jesus.

Enemies are one thing but evil associations are entirely different!


Stranger, (2Th 3:14)

DeborahsTree
Posts: 1014
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Are Gay People Born Gay?

#22 Post by DeborahsTree » 2 years ago

Stranger wrote:
2 years ago
Deborah's Tree Wrote,
Remember we are to love even our enemies. How then can we refuse anyone?
We don't refuse anyone, we don't judge anyone, but we do judge for our own self which lifestyle we choose to live. If you want to believe that the Lord promotes gay lifestyles that's okay and that's your right, but don't judge me for what I Believe the Lord promotes. When I choose not to be a part of gay lib that's not because I'm judging any one in particular except myself which is perfectly fine with Jesus.

Enemies are one thing but evil associations are entirely different!


Stranger, (2Th 3:14)
Enemies are one thing but evil associations are entirely different!
Who did Jesus brand evil associations? Who did Jesus brand as people we should not associate with?

I'm not promoting a life style. Just saying that Jesus did not shun anyone and he did not refuse to eat with anyone. Neither did he, when teaching, publicly tell sinners, including gays, they could not sit and hear him. Nor that they could not eat with them.

Just as an aside: the only sexual sin in the Ten Commandments is adultery.

LonelySheep
Posts: 174
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: in a handbasket

Re: Are Gay People Born Gay?

#23 Post by LonelySheep » 2 years ago

I do believe that the Bible teaches that engaging in homosexual intercourse is a sin. Some gay people are born gay, yes. And yes that would mean that choosing to abstain from the sin of homosexual intercourse means choosing a life of singleness and abstinence. That is a very sad outcome, but I don't see that the sadness of the outcome changes the clarity of what the scriptures require.

That said, is homosexual intercourse "more" of a sin than any other sin? The Bible doesn't seem to support that. I certainly don't have the right to judge anyone else's sin, whether it is intentional, avoidable, or anything else about it. So I don't have any personal negative feelings toward homosexuals or feelings of superiority to them. Their sins are no worse or better than my own. In fact, I have great sympathy for anyone dealing with that struggle, as it must be an incredibly difficult one, and one that others seem quick to judge or express disgust over.

Should practicing homosexuals be accepted within the Christian congregation? I don't believe the Bible supports that. A practicing homosexual, whether married or not, is saying "I am determined to keep doing something that God says is sin." Being a Christian means TRYING to follow the guidelines that God gives us. Not succeeding, but trying. To just say, "I am going to give up trying" regarding ANY sin, whether homosexual intercourse, gluttony, greed, or whatever, is not showing that we are following a Christian path. Outside the congregation, I have no judgment towards them. I know some believe that they can practice homosexual intercourse and still be approved by God. I don't believe that FOR ME, based on my understanding. But that's between them and God, nothing to do with me.

I do think that sinners of all kinds that fall back into sin and regret it should be allowed to remain in and have the support of the congregation. People should not be shunned or disfellowshipped for ANY sin that they are regretful of, and it is not up to the elders to decide whether regret is real in most cases. Frequent and repeated sin might draw legitimate concern about whether repentance and regret is real, but otherwise if the person says they are repentant, and WANT the help and support of the congregation, they should have it.

AmosAu2
Posts: 440
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: Are Gay People Born Gay?

#24 Post by AmosAu2 » 2 years ago

Hi Lonely Sheep,

I totally support your thoughts. This is my own belief, & has been since being outside the WTS.

I have been meaning to post something along the same lines, but you have covered more than I would have said.

"Hate the sin & NOT the sinner."

Regards, Amos.

Hisclarkness
Posts: 457
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Are Gay People Born Gay?

#25 Post by Hisclarkness » 2 years ago

Hi lonelysheep,

You said that you believe that homosexual intercourse is a sin based on scripture. What do you make of homosexual love? If two men or two women fall in love with each other, is that wrong? What if they get married, live together, and build a life with each other but never have intercourse? Is that wrong? Is it wrong if two men kiss? Or if two women hold hands? Why or why not and based on what understanding? If a gay couple is married and has kids and built a stable family should they break that family up in the name of “following God?”

Hopefully by now you can see the dilemma that presents itself for many gay people and the limits of what the Bible does and does not say on this matter. There is something deeper here than simply “gay sex”. This is deeper than simply “resisting the urge to sin”.

While it might seem like just another sin you are unknowingly condemning many people’s very existence. I understand that you’re effectively saying hate the sin and not the sinner. What I’m saying is that in this particular case it is impossible to separate the two. Yes, people are more than just their sexual activity. But that is my exact point with gay people. Being gay is more than just sex.

You say that you emphasize with anyone in this situation but remain firm on this belief. I wonder if you have ever done anything more than a surface study of this particular subject? I don’t mean to ask that as some sort of attack.

The Bible presents very limited statements about homosexual behavior. Half of those statements are not saying what they appear to say on the surface. This is fact. The other half can be read and interpreted in their contexts in such a way that really is completely separate from the idea of “being gay” as we know and understand it today. I know these are strong statements to make but I am prepared to back them up if the conversation decides to veer in that direction.

Of course each Christian congregation has a right to their own “rules” of fellowship. But isn’t the whole point of Christian fellowship for us to come together despite our differences and praise our Father and be encouraged by each other’s experiences?

I’ve struggled for a while with how exactly to continue responding to this thread. It is a subject that I’ve had to deal with first hand. I know many people who have been deeply hurt and affected by this belief. These people love God just as much as you and I but will testify to you that this is not something that can simply be resisted. It cuts into the very core of a person’s being, not simply their behavior.

Over the past few years I have come to understand this subject in light of the circumcision issue of Acts. Just as circumcision was a hot button topic in the first century that threatened to divide the church I believe the subject of homosexuality is likewise doing the same thing. But I have confidence that just as the Holy Spirit led them to a higher understanding back then it will ultimately do the same today and several years from now this will no longer even be an issue or question.

Erick
Posts: 229
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Are Gay People Born Gay?

#26 Post by Erick » 2 years ago

I think many people get caught up on the word "sin". It of course just means basically "missing the mark" as in shooting an arrow at a target. There is a lot of unnecessary guilt for past deeds as well as a lot of unhelpful condemnation of others. As far as condemning others Jesus clearly told us to mind the rafter in our own eye before giving attention to the straw in the eye of our brother. Also judging others is "missing the mark" as well.

Is the congregation for those who "miss the mark"? Or only for those who do the ideal thing in every situation? Obviously there are no people who do the ideal thing always therefore everyone misses the mark and therefore are sinners. This word "sinner" is such a loaded word that it can cause much confusion. But the church should be for those who are interested in spiritual growth.

Is a homosexual sexual relationship ideal? No. Almost all heterosexual sexual relationships are not ideal either because of lack of harmony between the man and woman. But at least it has the potential to be ideal. This potential is lacking in a homosexual relationship.

Homosexuality is the result of a certain imbalance in the soul of the person. Things like anger, lack of internal peace, addictions, lack of self esteem etc. are also the result of an imbalance in the soul of the person. Therefore if you allow people who lack self esteem into the church homosexuals should be allowed in as well. However homosexuality should never be celebrated as if it were an ideal. Homosexuals need not feel ashamed or guilty but neither should they loudly proclaim their "gay pride". They should be working on their internal imbalances that have resulted in their being homosexual.

John S
Posts: 1159
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Are Gay People Born Gay?

#27 Post by John S » 2 years ago

Here again....

The Bible in the letters and writings of the Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul, who proved by power miracles of which we are aware, even resurrecting a lad who broke his neck falling out of a two story window.....

But:

Some here, who are themselves, “coming out of the closet”, and admitting they don’t accept the 14 letters from Paul as coming from the apostle directly chosen by Christ as the 12th, as a replacement possibly of Judas, because the New Jerusalem in Revelation certainly would have Paul not Matthias as the replacement possibly.

Peter gave positive testimony to Paul’s appointment.

The problem I see with women not accepting the counsel and the reality that the woman should allow the man to make a final decision in a marriage is the attitude of women today and cannot be supported Biblically.

This is why I brought up the Genesis 3 site, to try to help others see the danger they are in from breathing in the rebellious attitude growing among women today.

Men are not who we need to respect in the Biblical manner, we can even marry other women, hate men if we want, and lie, steal, sue their pants off in divorce court, and yell loudly....

We are not accepting God’s laws on homosexuality, subjection of women and children to the husband, any kind of corporeal punishment for the correct upbringing of children...

nay, we will not accept the Biblical teaching that God is going to punish ANYone at all! But everyone will be forced, by reincarnation 1000’s of times if necessary and subject all others to live in an anti- god world while the spoiled brats get to rape and sodomize them and their children, and like in my wife’s hometown, abduct children two last week, to sell as prostitutes in other countries, or murder them for their organs, eyes, etc.

So.....I ask you all.....


How far out of balance will God allow people to act indefinitely...especially you here who wish to inherit the kingdom, while skating into holes in the ice all the while shouting at the children of God...

There are no holes! We are going into the kingdom regardless of what God says!

John S
Posts: 1159
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Are Gay People Born Gay?

#28 Post by John S » 2 years ago

Furthermore,

I don’t believe these people are born gay. They have sex organs that prove what they were born as.

Very simple to see.

John S
Posts: 1159
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Are Gay People Born Gay?

#29 Post by John S » 2 years ago

And I will add,

The attitude of talking down on the Apostle Paul as being uninspired and a nobody who has any business interpreting the scriptures and representing himself as a direct conduit from Christ is in very deep water.

It is, IMO opinion, spinning against the Holy Spirit.

You all had best not burn this bridge, ...seriously.

You may hate men, and never want to marry one, but this attitude of saying Paul is not an inspired Apostle, and joining the gay/homosexual movement puts one an enemy of God.

That you want to teach others to sin in so doing, puts you as an enemy of the Bible truth, and join with others who say,

“You will not die!......” Gen. 2

DeborahsTree
Posts: 1014
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Are Gay People Born Gay?

#30 Post by DeborahsTree » 2 years ago

John S wrote:
2 years ago
The problem I see with women not accepting the counsel and the reality that the woman should allow the man to make a final decision in a marriage is the attitude of women today and cannot be supported Biblically.

(1 Samuel 25:2-35) . . .Now there was a man in Ma′on, and his work was in Car′mel. And the man was very great, and he had three thousand sheep and a thousand goats; and he came to be [engaged] in shearing his sheep at Car′mel. 3 And the man’s name was Na′bal, and his wife’s name was Ab′i·gail. And the wife was good in discretion and beautiful in form, but the husband was harsh and bad in his practices; and he was a Ca′leb·ite. 4 And David got to hear in the wilderness that Na′bal was shearing his sheep. 5 So David sent ten young men and David said to the young men: “Go up to Car′mel, and YOU must come to Na′bal and ask him in my name about his welfare. 6 And this is what YOU must say to my brother, ‘May you be well and also your household be well and all that you have be well. 7 And now I have heard that you have shearers. Now the shepherds that belong to you happened themselves to be with us. We did not molest them, and nothing at all showed up missing of theirs all the days they happened to be in Car′mel. 8 Ask your own young men, and they will tell you, that my young men may find favor in your eyes, because it was upon a good day that we came. Just give, please, whatever your hand may find to your servants and to your son David.’” 9 Accordingly David’s young men came and spoke to Na′bal in accord with all these words in the name of David and then waited. 10 At this Na′bal answered David’s servants and said: “Who is David, and who is the son of Jes′se? Nowadays the servants that are breaking away, each one from before his master, have become many. 11 And do I have to take my bread and my water and my slaughtered meat that I have butchered for my shearers and give it to men of whom I do not even know from where they are?” 12 Upon that David’s young men turned around on their way and went back and came and reported to him in accord with all these words. 13 Immediately David said to his men: “Gird on every one his sword!” So they girded on every one his sword and David also girded on his own sword; and they began to go up after David, about four hundred men, while two hundred sat by the baggage. 14 Meanwhile, to Ab′i·gail, Na′bal’s wife, one of the young men reported, saying: “Look! David sent messengers from the wilderness to wish our master well, but he screamed rebukes at them. 15 And the men were very good to us, and they did not molest us, and we did not miss a single thing all the days of our walking about with them while we happened to be in the field. 16 A wall was what they proved to be around us both by night and by day, all the days that we happened to be with them, shepherding the flock. 17 And now know and see what you are going to do, for calamity has been determined against our master and against all his house, as he is too much of a good-for-nothing fellow to speak to him.” 18 At once Ab′i·gail hastened and took two hundred loaves of bread and two large jars of wine and five sheep dressed and five seah measures of roasted grain and a hundred cakes of raisins and two hundred cakes of pressed figs and put them upon the asses. 19 Then she said to her young men: “Pass on ahead of me. Look! I am coming after YOU.” But to her husband Na′bal she told nothing. 20 And it occurred that while she was riding on the ass and secretly going down the mountain, why, there were David and his men coming down to meet her. So she encountered them. 21 As for David, he had said: “It was altogether for disappointment that I guarded everything that belongs to this fellow in the wilderness and not a single thing of all that belongs to him showed up missing, and yet he repays me evil in return for good. 22 So may God do to the enemies of David and so may he add to it if I shall let anyone of all who are his that urinates against the wall remain until the morning.” 23 When Ab′i·gail caught sight of David, she at once hastened and got down off the ass and fell upon her face before David and bowed to the earth. 24 She then fell at his feet and said: “Upon me myself, O my lord, be the error; and, please, let your slave girl speak in your ears, and listen to the words of your slave girl. 25 Please, do not let my lord set his heart upon this good-for-nothing man Na′bal, for, as his name is, so is he. Na′bal is his name, and senselessness is with him. As for me your slave girl, I did not see my lord’s young men that you had sent. 26 And now, my lord, as Jehovah is living and as your soul is living, Jehovah has held you back from entering into bloodguilt and having your own hand come to your salvation. And now let your enemies and those seeking injury to my lord become like Na′bal. 27 And now as regards this gift blessing that your maidservant has brought to my lord, it must be given to the young men that are walking about in the steps of my lord. 28 Pardon, please, the transgression of your slave girl, because Jehovah will without fail make for my lord a lasting house, because the wars of Jehovah are what my lord is fighting; and as for badness, it will not be found in you throughout your days. 29 When man rises up to pursue you and look for your soul, the soul of my lord will certainly prove to be wrapped up in the bag of life with Jehovah your God; but, as for the soul of your enemies, he will sling it forth as from inside the hollow of the sling. 30 And it must occur that, because Jehovah will do to my lord the good toward you according to all that he has spoken, he certainly will commission you as leader over Israel. 31 And let this not become to you a cause for staggering or a stumbling block to the heart of my lord, both by the shedding of blood without cause and by having [the hand of] my lord [itself] come to his salvation. And Jehovah will certainly do good to my lord, and you must remember your slave girl.” 32 At this David said to Ab′i·gail: “Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel, who has sent you this day to meet me! 33 And blessed be your sensibleness, and blessed be you who have restrained me this day from entering into bloodguilt and having my own hand come to my salvation. 34 And, on the other hand, as Jehovah the God of Israel is living, who has held me back from doing injury to you, if you had not hastened that you might come to meet me, there would certainly not have remained to Na′bal until the morning light anyone urinating against a wall.” 35 With that David accepted from her hand what she had brought him, and to her he said: “Go up in peace to your house. See, I have listened to your voice that I may have consideration for your person.”

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