The Last Memorial?

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Marina
Posts: 2142
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The Last Memorial?

#1 Post by Marina » 3 years ago

In the January 2018 WT Study Edition article Pleasant Unity and The Memorial, I notice WTBS is saying that the last Memorial is observed prior to the gathering of the anointed to heaven. Given they already say the anointed who have died are in heaven, all that needs to be done to do away with the Memorial is say there are no more genuine anointed on the earth. Of course there are loose ends to this argument but when did that ever stop WTBS publishing such information?

Doing away with the Memorial means one less time Jesus' name has to be mentioned. Further, the eradication of the Memorial still leaves the great tribulation about to happen.

Of course some might object saying that doing away with the Memorial is contrary to common sense. But objectors can be painted as troublemakers opposed to unity. Additionally, WTBS has been promising to issue instructions that seem contrary to common sense for some time. Alternatively maybe all this is just another teaser to keep people hanging on. Start a rumour that this might be the last Memorial ever.
A FINAL MEMORIAL​—WHEN?

15. How do we know that there will be a final Memorial?

15 One day the Memorial will be observed for the last time. How do we know? In his first inspired letter to the Corinthians, Paul wrote to anointed Christians that by commemorating Jesus’ death each year, they “keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he comes.” 1 Cor. 11:26) The word “comes” here refers to the same event as the “coming” that Jesus mentioned in his prophecy about the time of the end. Regarding the great tribulation just ahead of us, he said: “The sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And [Jesus] will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.” (Matt. 24:29-31)( This ‘gathering of chosen ones’ refers to the time when all anointed Christians who still remain on earth will receive their heavenly reward. It will happen after the initial part of the great tribulation has passed but before the battle of Armageddon. Then all of the 144,000 will share with Jesus in conquering the kings of the earth. (Rev. 17:12-14) The last Memorial that is observed prior to this gathering of the anointed to heaven will be the final one, for Jesus will have ‘come.’

16. Why are you determined to be present at this year’s Memorial?

16 May we be determined to benefit ourselves by attending the Memorial on March 31, 2018. And let us ask Jehovah to help us keep contributing to the unity of his people! (Read Psalm 133:1.) Remember, someday the Memorial we observe will be the final one. Meanwhile, may we do our utmost to be in attendance, and may we treasure the pleasant unity experienced at the Memorial
I find their wording very odd. Why say 'how do we know that there will be a final Memorial?' Isn't it obvious how we know? Jesus returns, end of Memorial. It seems like a whole lot of unnecessary explanation which allows you to interpret 1 Cor 11:26 as 'keep proclaiming the death of the Lord until the anointed are gather to heaven because that'll mean Jesus has come but not the war of the great day of God the Almighty (Rev 16:14,15,16) nor will Jesus have come as a thief.

I wonder if these verses might gradually get overlooked?

(Revelation 6:12-17)

:roll:
Marina

Bobcat
Posts: 3316
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: The Last Memorial?

#2 Post by Bobcat » 3 years ago

Hi Marina,
“keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he comes.” (1 Cor. 11:26)
I wouldn't count on their reasoning holding up. For example, Jesus said, "And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Mt 28:20 rNWT)

Does this mean that Jesus WON'T be with them after that?

Looking at Paul's words again, could it be possible that after Jesus "comes," the focus of the "proclaiming" at the Lord's Evening Meal (during the Millennium) might change? Before Jesus "comes," that is the event Christians are looking forward to. After Jesus has arrived the focus might shift to the progress of the 1000 years with Christ actively ruling. Resurrected people (non-Christians) will still need to put faith in Jesus. (I'm thinking of Revelation chapters 21-22 with the New Jerusalem and with the nations needing to be healed with the provisions from that city. Also compare Zech 14:16-17)

What I'm saying is that it is possible that the symbolism represented in the Lord's Evening Meal would still be valid during the 1000 years. I could see it ending after Jesus hands over the kingdom at the end of the 1000 years.

On the other hand, the WT's view is terribly skewed by their false ideas about who is supposed to be anointed.
I find their wording very odd.
I find their arrogance and cocksureness very odd.

Anyways, that's Bobcat's thoughts, for what they are worth.

Bobcat

Marina
Posts: 2142
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: The Last Memorial?

#3 Post by Marina » 3 years ago

Hi Bobcat
Bobcat wrote:
3 years ago

I wouldn't count on their reasoning holding up.
Its been a long time since I counted on their reasoning :) I wonder if they are trying to get Armageddon out of the picture and replace it with any old war but ideally the Great War of 1914 (WWI).

Sometimes I become aware of teachings and beliefs that indicate WTBS is not teaching that Armageddon will take place but a new invisible age has surreptitiously arrived. The source of this teaching is not the Bible. But through the words of WTBS this teaching is regularly mixed with Biblical teachings.

For example, this is from the Dec 17 Christian Life and Ministry (used to be Kingdom Ministry)
Jehovah formed “a very great valley” in 1914 when he established the Messianic Kingdom, a subsidiary “mountain” to his universal sovereignty. Since 1919, God’s servants have found safety in “the valley of the mountains” ...

Anyone outside the symbolic valley will be destroyed at Armageddon
What takes place via their literature/media is a gradual grooming. Unsuspecting Christians are attracted to the message delivered by WTBS. They join, hear some slightly odd things and are told WTBS is not dogmatic, if any teachings are wrong they'll change. As we know, they do change teachings but not from incorrect to correct but from incorrect to whatever suits them. Within this passive-dogmatic environment of mixed teachings, a true Christian waits on Jehovah, hoping the teachings will be amended. Christian tolerance is being deliberately misused because those higher up the Ladder of Privilege know that true correction will not be forthcoming. But every so often the volume is turned up on the non-Christian teachings about the invisible New Age. Some become outraged and leave but others remain for whatever reason.

Therefore what I'm suggesting is that the very Memorial itself is an Albatross round their neck. During it, emphasis has to be placed on Jesus Christ and not on them. The Memorial is a condemnation of the Invisible Presence teaching because the fact it takes place means that Jesus has not come.

The article I quote from raises a question I have never heard anyone ask 'will there be a final memorial?' Its a bit like asking 'did Jesus have hair?' Then going on to write paragraphs about why he must have had hair. Why do it unless you are grooming someone? Perhaps to shave their beard off or teasing them?

The article was in a study edition of the WT. In days gone by that used to be for deep thinking Christians , who would have been well past ever asking such a simplistic questions. Nowadays there are two WTs, the study edition and the edition for the public. If such a question had been in the public edition, it could almost have been understandable.
Bobcat wrote:
3 years ago

I find their arrogance and cocksureness very odd.
Maybe they all have all been indoctrinated with Nietzsche's Will To Power. Maybe there are questions asked of GB candidates and providing they answer with sufficient levels of Nietzchism they get the golden ticket to Powerland.

:flowers:
Marina

John S
Posts: 1159
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: The Last Memorial?

#4 Post by John S » 3 years ago

Nowhere in scripture is the Memorial supposed to terminate...but Christians are to keep it as an observance right up until they are brought to heaven. Even then, a Great Crowd of people live on earth; having survived the GT and Armageddon, who owe their salvation to the Lamb...as well as all humankind to be born into eternity..... they all will without a doubt, offer praise to God and his Son that day ever after . Nissan 14 will be the main event every year from now on, among spirit - born and earth-dwelling Christians who have God's spirit.

As Marina intimates....JW writers do not love, nor honour Jesus, and are stealing more of his glory as they have done for decades. They are not ,'One' with him...and prevent others from becoming so, too. (Luke 11:52) They avoid Jesus' teachings like the plague, and continue to steer members to Old Testament prophecies rather than Jesus' new covenant and new creation themes. The New Covenant, and Re-creation, and abolition of the Jewish era is the 'old wine' that had to be kept in old wineskins...the Law, etc. The new wine of going to heaven for Christians, and being born of the spirit, burst the old wineskins, just as Jesus' teachings blew the mind of the old -fashioned traditionalists; who had fear-controlling power...same as WT and disfellowshipping today. Witnesses do not dare to even utter questions many times for fear of being tagged as apostate. Only those who love God and Jesus enough to get out and expose WT lies REGARDLESS of reprisals (fear of men and congregational 'death' by DF'ing) will be granted full spiritual blessings, IMO. But it does take time to get the facts and the courage to finally make your move.

Thanks, Marina for revealing to us how WT is 'filling up the cup', and will continue to show their true colours as time goes on. (Matt. 23:32)

leaving_quietly
Posts: 761
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: The Last Memorial?

#5 Post by leaving_quietly » 3 years ago

The proclamation of Christ's death is until he comes. After he come, though, the Memorial still continues in some fashion. Christ said so:

Matt 26:26-29: "As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf, and after saying a blessing, he broke it, and giving it to the disciples, he said: “Take, eat. This means my body.” 27 And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of you, 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. 29 But I say to you: I will by no means drink again any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the Kingdom of my Father.” "

leaving_quietly
Posts: 761
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: The Last Memorial?

#6 Post by leaving_quietly » 3 years ago

Regarding my last post, on further thought, that Christ said he would drink with them in the Kingdom doesn't necessarily mean the Memorial would continue. He simply said he would drink it with them new in the Kingdom. That's all. (I gotta stop reading more into this than is actually said.)

Marina
Posts: 2142
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: The Last Memorial?

#7 Post by Marina » 3 years ago

Hi JohnS and LQ

I must admit I'm taking the view that the Memorial ends at Armageddon/Christ's return. Thereafter things will change radically. Perhaps the Memorial will continue or maybe Jesus Christ himself reigning will be a sufficient reminder. I don't know.

That aside, I have never heard anyone speak of the last Memorial except in the sense of brothers and sisters saying 'this may be the last one before Armageddon.' What WTBS seems to be doing in that article is laying a groundwork; providing reasons to imagine there is no need for the Memorial anymore because something other than Armageddon happened.

They used to celebrate Christmas, then they did away with it as a mistake. Maybe the Memorial will be done away with as a mistake in the light of some new/revisited/reversed/revised light about the start of the resurrection. They could say 'brothers, for excellent reasons we have celebrated the Memorial to-date but it is a burden to you and GB would add no further burden to you except these necessary things...therefore you have one less meeting to arrange. Are you not deeply grateful for this thoughtful consideration...'

Members of the congregation will respond :e_clap: :problem: :silent: :clap: :shrug:

Below are several quotes showing their view on the start of the resurrection.
*** re chap. 27 p. 177 par. 2 God’s Kingdom Is Born! ***
John now sees a great sign—one of outstanding interest for God’s people. It introduces a thrilling prophetic vision, the meaning of which was first published in the March 1, 1925, issue of The Watch Tower in an article entitled “Birth of the Nation” and then again in 1926 in the book Deliverance. This brilliant flash of Bible understanding became a historic marker in the advancement of Jehovah’s work. So let John describe the drama as it starts to unfold: “And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, and she was pregnant. And she cries out in her pains and in her agony to give birth.”—Revelation 12:1, 2.

*** re chap. 27 p. 179 par. 11 God’s Kingdom Is Born! ***
The appointed time for the nations to rule without interruption by God came to an end in 1914. (Luke 21:24) Then, right on time, the woman bears her child: “And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.”

*** re chap. 27 p. 184 par. 25 God’s Kingdom Is Born! ***
Similarly, starting in 1919, Jehovah brought forth the seed of the woman as a spiritual nation. This is not to be confused with the Messianic Kingdom that has been ruling from the heavens since 1914. Rather, this new nation is made up of the remnant of anointed witnesses on earth, who were brought into a glorious spiritual estate in 1919. Being provided now with “their measure of food supplies at the proper time,” these were strengthened for the work that lay ahead.—Luke 12:42; Isaiah 66:8.
*** w09 5/15 p. 18 Questions From Readers ***
Another factor to consider is the resurrection of anointed Christians, which—as Scriptural evidence indicates—began soon after the establishment of the Kingdom. (Rev. 20:6) Since none of Christ’s anointed brothers are spoken of as accompanying Jesus in the battle with the dragon and its angels, the war in heaven and the ousting of Satan and his demons would have been completed by the time the resurrection of Christ’s brothers got under way.

So, then, the Bible does not reveal the exact time when Satan and his demons were expelled from heaven. Nevertheless, it is evident that this event closely followed the enthronement of Jesus Christ in heaven in 1914
Getting the Anointed Jesus out of the picture and replacing him with the Anointed themselves may not be the full goal. How often do we hear 'Jehovah causes to become whatever he needs to to achieve his purpose'? Sometimes this statement is followed by 'and he causes us to become whatever we need to to achieve his purpose.' That almost sounds like the end justifies the means. Us/We are close to being defined as God. In the case of the true God, of course He will do His will. He is righteous in all his ways and his ways are higher than ours. But he will not carry out injustice. However a body of people directed by imperfect men seeing themselves as 'he causes to become' is different. It sounds like a collective consciousness almost calling itself Jehovah. Very Transcendental.

For information, although he turned away from them, C T Russell did have an interest in Oriental religions.
*** jv chap. 5 p. 43 Proclaiming the Lord’s Return (1870-1914) ***
Turning away from church creeds and searching for truth, Russell examined some leading Oriental religions, only to find these unsatisfying.
Marina

apollos0fAlexandria
Posts: 3333
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: The Last Memorial?

#8 Post by apollos0fAlexandria » 3 years ago

They will never do away with the memorial as an event.

The "last memorial" thing is simply a carrot / stick to be ensuring that members fear missing the last one because their lives might depend on it. They can't win the battle of convincing people that they need to attend every meeting each week for fear of being outside the ark (even though they have tried that approach at times). But they have a huge audience who attend once a year in a kind of "Pascal's wager" type arrangement, and they very well know that. Some of those people trickle through to become regular again by using the memorial as a kickstart. That's why for several years now they include the announcement that tries to persuade people to come again - if only for the special talk initially.

The memorial is way too much of a good thing for the WT for them to consider tinkering too much with it. As far as featuring Jesus they already dial it back sufficiently by making most of the talk about the "two hopes". They CAN continue to tinker with that, but not with holding of the event itself.

leaving_quietly
Posts: 761
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: The Last Memorial?

#9 Post by leaving_quietly » 3 years ago

I must admit I'm taking the view that the Memorial ends at Armageddon/Christ's return.
I tend to agree with this myself, after re-reading the relevant passages, though I'm glad the "product of the vine" will be present in the Kingdom. :P

What gets me is that they think the Great Tribulation is longer than it really is, with it culminating at Armageddon (they call the Great Tribulation the "first phase" or "initial phase"). Matt 24:29-31 makes it pretty clear that following the tribulation is not Armageddon, but signs in the heavens, and then Christ comes and gathers his chosen ones. Therefore, ALL anointed who are alive "come out of the great tribulation", because they don't get gathered until AFTER the tribulation ends. It stands to reason then, that the gathering that follows the great tribulation is when the first resurrection starts, also. If 1 Thess 4:15-17 is looked at in combination with Matt 24:29-31, it would appear the sequence is: great tribulation ends, Christ comes, first resurrection occurs, finally chosen ones still alive gathered. It doesn't appear to be possible that the resurrection has started because Christ has not descended from heaven with that commanding call, an archangel's voice and God's trumpet.

As far as them grooming the R&F for ending the Memorial, I tend to think that would be too much of a shock for everyone to handle if they did it before the Great Tribulation even started. It would be less shocking for them to say everyone should partake than to just get rid of it altogether. They could easily use many of the lines of reason that many of us here and elsewhere have already outlined about why partaking is proper for all Christians, and it would be readily accepted, I would think. If it comes from the GB, accept. If it comes from elsewhere, reject. That's all it amounts to.

Marina
Posts: 2142
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: The Last Memorial?

#10 Post by Marina » 3 years ago

Hi Apollos and LQ
apollos0fAlexandria wrote:
3 years ago
The memorial is way too much of a good thing for the WT for them to consider tinkering too much with it. As far as featuring Jesus they already dial it back sufficiently by making most of the talk about the "two hopes". They CAN continue to tinker with that, but not with holding of the event itself.
At this year's convention the full moon was visually featured a lot in the Wife of Lot (no pun intended). Maybe that will become more significant as they tinker with the memorial. I take your point that it is an important event for them. But when your back is against the wall and all you have left to play is your highest card, that card might get played. Imagine the excitement that could be generated by this announcement:

'Friends, this could be the last memorial.'

Then true to form nothing happens except - the Watch Tower stops being printed. Or:

'Friends, this is the last memorial celebrating Jesus Christ's death. Next year there will be a memorial but it will be in memory of Christ's invisible arrival in Oct 1914. This is a more appropriate thing to celebrate. The memorial will now take place in October. Friends are requested to discourage interested persons from bringing pumpkin heads. This is not a celebration of Halloween...yet.'
leaving_quietly wrote:
3 years ago
What gets me is that they think the Great Tribulation is longer than it really is, with it culminating at Armageddon (they call the Great Tribulation the "first phase" or "initial phase").
They can pause the first phase, say its happened and are awaiting the second phase. 1914 used to be when Armageddon had happened, then it was stopped to let the Great Crowd out.
leaving_quietly wrote:
3 years ago
As far as them grooming the R&F for ending the Memorial, I tend to think that would be too much of a shock for everyone to handle
They've already promised the resurrection and defaulted. Millions now dead were convinced King David was going to hop onto the platform at a particular convention along with Noah, Abel and maybe even Shelah and Serug. The brothers and sisters were surprised when this didn't happen. Instead they were told 'oh the Princes of the Earth you were expecting to see resurrected today, that's not happening. But don't be disappointed because we've redefined the Princes of the Earth to mean all the elders. Elders would you please stand up for a round of applause.' All clapped :clap: so I'm told. But as they did so, some felt :crazy: :sick: :think:

There is a saying 'you can never underestimate the stupidity of people.' There are people who believe this and strive to exploit it.
Marina

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