Interesting Stuff

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Bobcat
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Re: Interesting Stuff

#261 Post by Bobcat » 3 weeks ago

Alex Trebek has passed.





Bobcat

AmosAu3
Posts: 420
Joined: 1 year ago

Re: Interesting Stuff

#262 Post by AmosAu3 » 3 weeks ago

Hi Bobcat,

Thanks for these last few posts with information. Much appreciated.

Regards, Amos.

Bobcat
Posts: 3099
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Interesting Stuff - Proverbs 8:22

#263 Post by Bobcat » 3 weeks ago

First, I will mention that there might be a better thread for this post (or just a new separate thread), but, until I find one I will just post this here.

A poster on reddit posted some commentary on Proverbs 8:22 that seemed to have some merit to it. At the very least, it is an interesting (and different) take on Pr 8:22 if you are of a JW background. Below is a copy/paste of it. The poster's screen name is dazzachat01:
2. Proverbs 8:22ff: “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.” JW Interpretation: Pr 8:12 identifies “wisdom” as the one speaking in this passage. “Wisdom” is Jesus who says he was “produced” by God and became his “master worker” (Pr 8:30). He was involved in the creation process, after he himself was created since he was “the earliest of his achievements.”

First point out that neither Jesus nor any of the writers of the New Testament apply Proverbs 8 to Jesus. Next, point the JW to verse one in the same chapter where wisdom is also talking.

Does not wisdom keep calling out, and discernment keep giving forth its voice?

Ask: If “wisdom” is an actual person (Jesus) in this text, then who is “discernment” in verse 1? And who is “shrewdness” in verse 12 with whom “wisdom” is said to reside?

I, wisdom, I have resided with shrewdness ...

At this point, the JW usually does not have an answer except to ask how you understand these verses. Solomon is using a figure of speech called “personification.”[5] He attributes the qualities of being a person to character qualities in order to make the reading more enjoyable and to have a greater impact. This is obvious throughout Proverbs.[6] Consider Pr 7:4-5.

Say to wisdom: “You are my sister;” and may you call understanding itself “Kinswoman,” to guard you against the woman stranger, against the foreigner who has made her own sayings smooth.[7]

Solomon teaches that if we are intimately acquainted with wisdom and understanding in our lives, we will not be ensnared by the enticements of the adulteress described in verses 6 and following.

Finally, point out that the purpose to which Solomon wrote Proverbs was

... for one to know wisdom and discipline, to discern the sayings of understanding, to receive the discipline that gives insight, righteousness and judgment and uprightness, to give to the inexperienced ones shrewdness, to a young man knowledge and thinking ability. (Proverbs 1:2-4)

We would expect Solomon, therefore, to talk about these qualities. A history of Jesus would be out of place, totally unrelated to the rest of Proverbs.[8] Moreover, just a few verses after Solomon states his purpose behind writing Proverbs 1:1-6, he personifies wisdom (Pr 1:20ff). That wisdom is personified as a figure of speech is apparent in Proverbs 9 where folly is likewise personified alongside of wisdom.

In another of his books, Solomon tells his readers that he has used literary tools throughout his writings:

And besides the fact that the congregator had become wise, he also taught the people knowledge continually, and he pondered and made a thorough search, that he might arrange many proverbs in order. The congregator sought to find the delightful words and the writing of correct words of truth. (Ecclesiastes 12:9-10)

In Proverbs 8, Solomon is telling his readers that if God used the quality of wisdom to create the universe, think of how it can be used in your own life for avoiding pitfalls and being successful at your endeavors. Wisdom, therefore, is not referring to Jesus. So we still have no Scriptures that indicate Jesus was created.

Bottom Line: The New Testament writers never employ Proverbs 8 in reference to Jesus. If “Wisdom” in Proverbs 8 is in fact “Jesus,” who is “Shrewdness” in verse 1 and “Discernment” in Pr 8:12? Finally, referring to Jesus in this passage is both out of place and goes against what Solomon is trying to teach. Solomon is not referring to Jesus in Proverbs 8, but is simply using a figure of speech called personification, as he does throughout Proverbs in order to be creative.

Note that I changed some of the scripture references so that they will work with the RefTagger app. Otherwise, the post is as I found it. (Actually, this was just a portion of a larger post that discussed several texts that are unrelated save for the fact that they each have unique WT applications.)


Bobcat

Get out of her
Posts: 848
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Interesting Stuff

#264 Post by Get out of her » 3 weeks ago

Bottom Line: The New Testament writers never employ Proverbs 8 in reference to Jesus. If “Wisdom” in Proverbs 8 is in fact “Jesus,” who is “Shrewdness” in verse 1 and “Discernment” in Pr 8:12? Finally, referring to Jesus in this passage is both out of place and goes against what Solomon is trying to teach. Solomon is not referring to Jesus in Proverbs 8, but is simply using a figure of speech called personification, as he does throughout Proverbs in order to be creative.
Upon considering the context of this eighth chapter of Proverbs there is no question that qualities such as wisdom and discernment are being addressed or even highlighted. However when we begin to factor in things like the fact that Solomon himself was actually recognized (at least initially) as a personification of such qualities as well as yet another prophetic/symbolic picture of Jesus (also referred to as "the greater Solomon"), we already begin to be directed to the idea that these verses of Proverbs are among countless other scriptures that point also to expanded meanings. (Mt 12:42) However unless we want to take the position that God's written word contradicts itself, this notion is actually confirmed for us upon comparing Proverbs 8 (and particularly it's statements like--"Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way"..."the earliest of his achievements of long ago"...) with scriptures such as the following:

Col 1:13-17
He 1:12
1 Cor 8:6
John 1:1-3

Clearly this notion or concept of the firstborn of Jehovah's creation as well as even its role in assisting him with all other creations is also consistently identified with Jesus throughout the scriptures. In fact if we insist on narrowing down the meanings here merely to qualities as opposed to also persons or things that are rightly recognized as personifications of such, then we are sure to run into great difficulty with scriptures like 1 John 4:8 or even passages such as verse 31 right here in Proverbs 8. Here in Proverbs 8:31 we find WHATEVER is being addressed as also taking PARTICULAR delight in mankind and all its related things. If anything (up until the present at least) this portion of Jehovah's creation has obviously been associated with the LEAST amount of wisdom and discernment. Yes a PERSON or even an entity (such as a "body of MANY members") that would ultimately DEMONSTRATE genuine wisdom is ALSO being addressed in the symbolic spiritual language of accounts like Proverbs 8. (1 Cor 12:12) (Pr 27:11)

Agape love;
Sol

AmosAu3
Posts: 420
Joined: 1 year ago

Re: Interesting Stuff

#265 Post by AmosAu3 » 3 weeks ago

Hi Bobcat,

Thanks for posting the article on Proverbs 8. I would tend to agree with the thoughts expressed in the article.
The studies I've been doing the last few years have been sorting through the common JW and other denominational mainstream beliefs. It has become abundantly clear that there has been an agenda behind much of the theology. It hasn't been straight forward and transparent.

The only evidence that I've ever seen presented for most of the questionable doctrines OR views.......is generally of the strawman variety.

Thanks again for posting.

Regards, Amos.

Bobcat
Posts: 3099
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Interesting Stuff - WT CSA News

#266 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

Thanks Amos.

Article in the Today's Times about WT resistance to CSA investigations and reporting in the UK: Here.


Bobcat (Shaking my head. No doubt Satan will be blamed for these "lies.")

Get out of her
Posts: 848
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Interesting Stuff

#267 Post by Get out of her » 2 weeks ago

I appreciated the article you posted here Bobcat regarding the manner in which the JW organization continues to respond to these child abuse investigations and I wanted to share what I find most interesting about it.

As always I'll insist that what we should primarily be focusing on is the prophetic patterns involved in such things and the manner in which they can assist us not only in predetermining the final outcome, but also how WE can land on the correct position or place when it comes to how we PERSONALLY view and respond to such matters.

When it comes to the issue of these foretold "conclusions of a system of things" (which we are obviously once again experiencing) and the corresponding "births" of the figurative "barren woman" or "comings of the kingdom" that are always commensurate with them, we would do well to take note of one of the FIRST phenomenons that were recorded for us in connection with them. (Mt 13:39) (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) (Isa 66:7, 8) More specifically I am referring to one of the things that would always unfold after a spiritual DEATH of God's nation would occur, and once again this was always identified with the moment Jehovah's HOLY covenant would essentially be replaced or substituted with a NEW formal agreement or alliance with SATAN'S system of things. (Da 11:30-32) Compare (Mt 24:15, 16)

In the books of 2 Kings and Chronicles, we find that in this very setting after Jehovah's nation began to enter into a spiritually adulterous formal agreements with foreign nations, or otherwise had begun to subjugate themselves to THEM as apposed to Jehovah, it was not long before they began to REBEL against these foreign entities that they had just crawled into bed with. (2 Ki 23:31-35 24:1) (2 Ch 36:2-6) Not only do we find that what now WAS Jehovah's nation (a very critical distinction) soon begins to feel the wrath of these foreign powers, but ultimately to an extent that proves completely devastating. But there are additional things brought out also in this same account that we should find rather noteworthy, and particularly when we observe this same prophetic pattern in prophecies such as at Revelation 17 in connection with OUR OWN time period.

Here in verses 2-4 of 2 Kings 24, we find that it is ultimately JEHOVAH that is behind the very adverse judgements that this very unfaithful or even spiritually adulterous entity now begins to experience. Not only do we once again find this very same situation mentioned also there in Revelation 17:17, but even with this same eventuality of complete and utter destruction for this unfaithful or even "harlot"-like entity. (Re 17:15, 16) (Isa 1:21)

The first thing that this prophetic pattern should help us to appreciate is that things will ultimately end very badly for the Watchtower organization, and this should in turn help us to better understand why it is so important for us to "get out of her." (Re 18:4) But the fact is that a closer examination of such scriptural accounts CONTINUES to reveal not only some ADDITIONAL things of interest, but even things that are absolutely CRUCIAL for us to grasp in these prophetic time frames or "conclusions of a system of things." (Mt 13:39)

First of all the fact is that in ALL the foretold "births" or arrivals of genuine theocratic authority and power on the earth, it never was SIMPLY what HAD BEEN Jehovah's nation that experiences his wrath or judgements in this "apostate" setting. (Isa 10:6) The entities that she had crawled into bed with ALSO begin to experience these things, which in turn is precisely why these "chastisements"/"strikings" or even "times" are also referred to as a "conclusion of an [entire] SYSTEM of things." (Le 26:18, 23) (Da 4:23, 32) Compare (Mt 26:31) Yes due to the fact that these new bedfellows are also identified as a "wild beast," and this "wild beast" in turn is always under the control or influence of "the dragon," this in turn means that these entities will experience Jehovah's wrath right along with what NOW qualifies as a "FALSE prophet." (Re 13:1, 2 16:13) Once again however a closer examination of such accounts and their reference scriptures will furnish us even with some rather interesting DETAILS involved with this ongoing phenomenon, ones in fact that make things like this article Bobcat posted all the more interesting.

Let's go back for a moment to this issue of how WHILE the spritually adulterous relations involved in violating Jehovah's holy kingdom covenant always result in an alliance between "the dragon, the wild beast and the false prophet," this unification is always soon followed with DIVISIONS or even "REBELLIONS" between these same entities. (2 Ki 24:19) In the case of the FINAL foretold death and rebirth or "baptism" of Jehovah's nation that we are already now witnessing, this division is expressed with terms such as --"and the great city was split into three parts." (Re 16:19) (2 Ki 5:14) You see a careful examination of accounts like Revelation 17 will reveal that AS ALWAYS, the utter devastation that this "three part great city" experiences is ultimately a SELF destruction, even if Jehovah is now behind the scenes working as a kind of puppet master. The WHOLE SYSTEM becomes increasingly divided AGAINST ITSELF until it is essentially no more. Moreover, we have been witnessing this very thing for some time already. What we may have have overlooked however is that Jehovah has gone so far as to inform us to some degree even on the PRECISE MANNER in which he accomplishes all this division and chaos that we are already witnessing! What exactly am I referring to?

In other words, granted we already realize that (as John words it in Revelation)-- Jehovah "HIMSELF" would "put it into their hearts to carry out"... what would ultimately comprise this complete self destruction; but have we overlooked that we have already been furnished millenniums ago with at least SOME details a to HOW Jehovah accomplishes this?

Once again in the books of Kings and Chronicles we find a prophetic drama that appears to point strongly to something interesting occurring at the time in which Jehovah separates or "splits" off the demons from this "three part great city." Evidently once the demons are removed from the picture, Jehovah's own angels begin to furnish the "false prophets" or even "magic practicing priests" of Satan's system with some very divisive information that soon leads to their utter demise. (1 Ki 22:19-22) (2 Chr 18:21, 22) (Eze 12:22-25) (Da 1:20)

Yes just as Jehovah worded it through his prophet Ezekiel, what we are now witnessing and experiencing with Satans system of things is the "matter of EVERY VISION" that we find recorded in the holy scriptures. (Eze 12:23) Or as the Apostle Paul worded it, --"ALL things written aforetime were written for our instruction..." (Ro 15:4)

Agape love;
Sol

Bobcat
Posts: 3099
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Interesting Stuff - WT UN Affiliation Letter

#268 Post by Bobcat » 1 week ago

In response to numerous requests, the UN has (re)posted a letter about WT's 1992-2001 affiliation with the UN as a NGO. The letter can be seen here at the UN's website.

This page at JWFacts has more detail of what made this scandalous.


Bobcat

Bobcat
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Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Interesting Stuff - Mortality Graphic

#269 Post by Bobcat » 1 week ago

Someone on Reddit posted a graphic that shows how life expectancy and child mortality (and a few other measures of progress) have changed from about the year 1900 until 2016. It can be seen here.

I think the purpose of the graphic was to show that modern times can not really be described as the worst of times. Or, alternatively, saying that 'recent times are the last days because we are living in the worst of times' is a false argument.

At any rate, make of it what you will. It is an interesting graphic.


Bobcat

Bobcat
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Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Interesting Stuff - Selling Water Rights

#270 Post by Bobcat » 1 week ago

Marina has a thread on selling water rights (here) that I am linking to for cross-reference purposes.


Bobcat

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