Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

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Daytona
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#11 Post by Daytona » 6 years ago

Thanks for the reply, Bobcat.
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menrov
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#12 Post by menrov » 6 years ago

Some more on the use of the word translated as SLAVE in Matthew (NET):
tn Though δοῦλος (doulos) is normally translated “servant,” the word does not bear the connotation of a free individual serving another. BDAG notes that “‘servant’ for ‘slave’ is largely confined to Biblical transl. and early American times… in normal usage at the present time the two words are carefully distinguished” (BDAG 260 s.v. 1). The most accurate translation is “bondservant” (sometimes found in the ASV for δοῦλος) in that it often indicates one who sells himself into slavery to another. But as this is archaic, few today understand its force.

In Luke, not the word SLAVE is used but Manager and footnote reads:
tn Or “administrator,” “steward” (L&N 37.39)

Different words but in principle the relation between the slave or steward and their master or manager is expressing the same. I have no idea either why the difference in words. The theories already provided can be correct. It is the meaning of the parable that is relevant, not so much the wording I guess.

AmosAU
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#13 Post by AmosAU » 6 years ago

I think the differences are due to the preferences of the translators.
When we check the KJV+Strongs, for both accounts of Matthew 24 & Luke 12, as stated by brother Josh. I believe that Jesus may have used the same words in each instance & yet they have been given a slight difference by translators.

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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#14 Post by Daytona » 6 years ago

The Gospels are not written in careful chronological order one with the other so that time comparisons can be firmly established one with the other. (This becomes quickly obvious when comparing the accounts where Jesus first meets his disciples and we find John's account is very different than the Synoptic writings.) They are accounts in which God's holy spirit has directed the placement of the material, such as in Luke for instance, for a purpose. Luke wrote Steward because God's spirit directed him to write Steward, Matthew wrote Slave because God's spirit directed him to write Slave. Luke wrote "ration", a measured food, and Matthew "food", unmeasured, for the same reason. Matthew by God's spirit places the Slave/food illustration in his Last Days account, Luke by God's spirit does NOT place his Steward/ration illustration in his Last Days account. So, imo, the question is not why each writer personally chose the terms and placement of their illustrations but rather why God directed them each to write different terms and to place them in different in sections of their Gospels.
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Daytona
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#15 Post by Daytona » 6 years ago

AmosAU wrote:
52 years ago
I think the differences are due to the preferences of the translators.
When we check the KJV+Strongs, for both accounts of Matthew 24 & Luke 12, as stated by brother Josh. I believe that Jesus may have used the same words in each instance & yet they have been given a slight difference by translators.

Blessings to all.
Hi Amos,

Below are the Strong's numbers for the terms we have been discussing and their Strong's definitions. I add Thayer and NASEC definitions to 5160 where it appears Strong is somewhat ambiguous.


Steward G3623- oikonomos "From G3624 and the base of G3551; a house distributor (that is, manager), or overseer, that is, an employee in that capacity; by extension a fiscal agent (treasurer); figuratively a preacher (of the Gospel): - chamberlain, governor, steward."

Slave G1401- doulos "From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant."


Ration G4620- sitometron "From G4621 and G3358; a grain measure, that is, (by implication) ration (allowance of food): - portion of meat."

Food G5160- trophē "From G5142; nourishment (literally or figuratively); by implication rations (wages): - food, meat."

From Thayer Definitions: trophē 1) food, nourishment

From NASEC: trophē; from G5142; nourishment, food: - enough *(1), food (13), meals (1), support (1).


Thus the NASB rightly translates:

Luke 12:42, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?

Matthew 24:45, "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
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AmosAU
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#16 Post by AmosAU » 6 years ago

Hi brother Josh,

Thanks for your response. I think that this is the only way we can come to a better understanding of God's Word, by doing a study of the meanings of the words that are used in passages such as this. All too often, we just take the translators words as being correct.

There is another point that Luke was a physician & as such was perhaps more thorough in his recording of the events. Yet another point that I think has been mentioned elsewhere, that this may have still been a parable rather than prophecy. Too many times do certain religious organizations turn parables & other accounts into a prophecy, for personal gain....power & control over their subjects.

Regards, Amos

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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#17 Post by Bobcat » 6 years ago

For any interested, here is some research I did on a comparison of the F&DS parable in the three synoptic gospels:

Background and Comparison of the F&DS Parable From the Synoptic Gospels

The account in Luke is the earliest, that is, it was given earliest in Jesus' ministry. Luke 13 has Jesus still in Galilee (cmp Lu 13:1, 2, 22). So this places the F&DS parable in Luke possibly somewhere between 2-6 months before it was repeated on the Mount of Olives just a couple days before Jesus' death.

You will notice that the version in Luke chapter 12 is the the most detailed, replete with the basic principle upon which the whole parable is based:
"Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him; and the one whom people put in charge of much, they will demand more than usual of him." (Luke 12:48 NWT)
In English it is not as easy to tell, but Luke 12:48 (the "b" part) actually ties back to Peter's question which prompted Jesus to give this parable. In Luke 12:41 Peter asks, "Lord, are you saying this illustration to us (pros hemas) or also to all (pros pantas)? By "this illustration," Peter is referring to Jesus' illustration in Luke 12:35-40.

After giving the parable of the F&DS, Jesus includes the principle upon which the parable is based (Luke 12:48): "Indeed" (which is the NWT rendition of de, literally "but), "everyone" (panti - a form of panta), which Peter used in his question, meaning "all," but in v. 48 of the NWT rendered "everyone."

So, if you see the linguistic connection, Jesus answers Peter's question by saying, in effect, 'Yes, I'm saying this to all,' but he adds the qualification, 'all that have been given much or entrusted with much.' And, of course, in this setting, the things 'given' or 'entrusted' are in connection with being a disciple of Jesus. It is also possible that in citing this principle, Jesus explains what Peter meant by 'us or all.' The "us" in Peter's question may correspond with the 'one who is put in charge of much' - that is, the apostles themselves - in verse 48. And the "all" in Peter's question would correspond with those"to whom much was given" - the rest of the disciples.

Jesus doesn't elaborate further because the parable is designed to cause each individual disciple to contemplate whether that describes himself/herself and to act accordingly.

The version in Mark is the briefest. Mark 13:32-36 closely parallels Matthew's version of the Olivet Discourse leading up to the F&DS parable at Mt 24:36-44. Mark 13:34-36 is also very similar to Luke 12:35-40. But Mark, rather than quote the F&DS parable simply says, "But what I say to you I say to all, keep on the watch." Thus, Mark keeps to the idea that Jesus was trying to get across without quoting the F&DS parable at all. This comparison with Mark's account makes it clear that the parable was meant for application to "all" disciples of Jesus.

Matthew's account has the same setting as Mark, the discourse on the Mount of Olives, a few days before Jesus' death. Most scholars are of the opinion that Matthew's gospel was written later than Mark's (contra the WT). And this is a good example why. Matthew's version (of the Olivet Discourse and of the F&DS parable) expands on the much briefer Markan account. Had Matthew written his account first, there would have been little need for Mark to give his briefer version.

At any rate, Matthew has more of the Luke 12 material than Mark has, but not as much as the account in Luke 12. Matthew's is a trimmed down, retold version. Mt 24:42-44 parallels Luke 12:35-40. Peter's question in Luke 12:41 is omitted in Matthew because Jesus is retelling the material here, whereas, in Luke the F&DS parable is prompted by Peter's question. Thus, in Matthew, the F&DS parable follows directly after the counsel to keep awake in Mt 24:42-44, which is itself a repeat of Luke 12:35-40.

Bobcat

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menrov
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#18 Post by menrov » 6 years ago

Thanks Bobcat, the last post was rather interesting.

Looking back on this topic, I wonder if there is any other religious organisation that has interpreted these verses like the WBTS? If one would not be a JW, would you ever come to this interpretation when you simply read these verses? I doubt it but here we are, doing extensive research on this. :D :D

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menrov
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#19 Post by menrov » 6 years ago

Finally, the WBTS is admitting the FDS verses are a parable. See WT March 2015 study edition, article entitled Be Loyal to Christ Brothers, par. 1, it reads partially:
They have just heard him relate illustrations about the faithful and discreet slave, the ten virgins, and the talents. Jesus concludes his discussion with one more parable
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Bobcat
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#20 Post by Bobcat » 6 years ago

Menrov asked:

I wonder if there is any other religious organisation that has interpreted these verses like the WBTS?
The BECNT-Luke commentary (Vol II, p. 1178) offers this summation of who the parable is directed at:
The key emphasis is seemingly related to stewardship and thus to religious leadership, as Luke 12:48 suggests. In addition, the higher the position the greater the need to heed the admonition. Putting these points alongside the setting, we see that all are responsible to respond properly to the knowledge they have about God. Jesus is admonishing anyone who is expecting the kingdom and who is believing that they are related to it to recognize that he will return with authority. Then he will deal with all people, but those who have knowledge of Christ will be subject to a more careful examination. The passage [Luke 12:42-48] applies to all, but most especially to leaders within the [Christian] community, since all are evaluated by the master on his return.

The application to all Christians, including the GB also, helps one to see that there will be ultimate justice.

On a side note, here is a page that has numerous quotes from the Society's literature over the years (as far back as the 19th century) showing how the Society's position on this parable has morphed.


Bobcat

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