Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

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menrov
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#21 Post by menrov » 6 years ago

I was again thinking about this as written in Luke and Matthew.
Let's have a look at verse Mat. 24:45,46 (NASB):
45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.

And Luke 21:42,43 (NASB)
42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?
43 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes

Both verses indicate that the Master will come back and verify if his slave is doing what he was tasked to do. If, according to JW doctrine, this verification by the master happened between 1914-1919, when did this master give the task to the slave and who was that slave then?
I know that Peter was asked by Jesus to feed and support His lambs and sheep. But after Peter, the master was gone, so who else did He ask to act as slave, the slave that will be validated/reviewed 1900 years later?

My point: according to JW doctrine, this is a prophetic parable and the Master is Jesus who came with HIs Father in the period 1914 - 1919 to see which slave was doing the work and They found that Russell / Rutherford was doing the feeding of the household.
But that is not what is written. It says that the Master has tasked the slave before He left. As the master represents Jesus, it means that Jesus has put a slave in charge of the the household/servants before He left (otherwise He could not review the performance of the slave when returned. First assign, then review) That could not be the WBTS as they did not exist when the Master was still around. They were not put in charge of the household/servants.
The parable does not say Jesus would come back and SEARCH for a slave (among all slaves) who was feeding. It says that the Master would return to check on the slave He has put in charge before He left.

As no-one can prove he was put in charge of the household/servants by the Master, the more reason that this was just a parable, a lesson, not to be taken as a prophecy or blueprint for a future event. If It is was to be taken as a true future event, then only Peter can claim he was put in charge of serving / feeding the household / servants. However, Peter died before Jesus returned and nowhere the bible teaches that the role of one slave is automatically passed on to a slave that wants to succeed him. Nor do we read anywhere in the bible that accountability of Gods people was given to an organisation or group of slaves. It was always a named individual and later a named individual to succeed the former individual.

Bobcat
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#22 Post by Bobcat » 6 years ago

Agreed, Menrov. The WT interpretation requires Jesus to return again in 1914, make his selection of a faithful slave, then go away yet again for a period of time until some future return where he judges his appointed steward.

It becomes a very tangled mess if one looks at it with even a little bit of a critical eye.

Another tangled detail in the WT interpretation is in the reward phase. The GB is supposedly the appointed slave. And in the parable it is this slave that is rewarded upon the Master's return. But in the WT interpretation all anointed are given the reward, not just the GB.

The WT interpretation makes the most sense when one sees it for what it is: a blatant ploy to hold on to their power base. The interpretation is not intended to make sense except to support that end.

Bobcat

qspf9
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#23 Post by qspf9 » 6 years ago

Sometimes I wonder if the "Governing Body" sees the irony in the title it has given to itself, since it also views itself as the Faithful and Discreet Slave. We only need consider Jesus' words at Luke 22:27: "For which one is greater, the one reclining at the table or the one ministering? Is it not the one reclining at the table? But I am in YOUR midst as the one ministering." And we also have the words of Paul at 2 Corinthians 1:24: "Not that we are the masters over YOUR faith, but we are fellow workers for YOUR joy, for it is by [YOUR] faith that YOU are standing."

A slave, or fellow worker, ministers to others, but a Governing Body governs over, and is a master over others. And, as we well know, Jesus told us we cannot slave for two masters. This body of persons is either a slave, or a master. They cannot both be true; the Governing Body can't have it both ways.

My main difficulty is when they try to incorporate the evil slave into the discussion. Here is the whole passage from Matthew 24:

45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.

48 “But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.

The problem is that WT considers the F&DS to be a prophecy, but the evil slave as a parable. (See the WT 7/15 2013, p. 24.) Some key points from the article are, "Was Jesus foretelling that there would be an evil slave class in the last days? No." and "Notice that Jesus introduces the warning with the words “if ever.” One scholar says that in the Greek text, this passage “for all practical purposes is a hypothetical condition.” " In other words, the evil slave is a parable.

Thus, to believe the interpretation that the F&DS is a prophecy, but that the evil slave is a parable, the very same passage is written in two completely different styles - one as a prophesy and another as a parable. What other passage of scriptures is written in such a "mixed" style? I cannot think of a single one.

There is another problem with the passage about the evil slave. What does this evil slave DO? He says, 'My master is delaying'. How could the evil slave possibly believe such a thing? Would it not stem from presuming a time at which the master will return, and then feeling disappointment when the master did not arrive as the evil slave predicted? Note that the evil slave does not merely BELIEVE that the return will happen at some given time, but he is SAYING IT in his heart. And, as Jesus reminds us, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

Who in modern times has not only believed the master would return at some predicted time (1874, 1914, 1925, 1975, etc.) but has publicly said so? Is it not the self-proclaimed "faithful and discrete slave"? Does that not suggest the "faithful" slave is in fact "evil"?

Note Jesus' language when he describes these groups.

He starts out by saying, "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave". We could put it another way: If a slave were REALLY faithful and discrete, they would conduct themselves thus and so.

But the very next verse says, "But if ever THAT evil slave should say in his heart ...". It is noteworthy that the subject of "slaves" (good or bad) is confined to this area in chapter 24. There are no other references to "slave" in all of chapter 24. That makes the reference to "THAT slave" appear to be a reference back to the only other "slave" under discussion - the supposedly "faithful" one.

Could it be that the "evil" slave is actually the supposedly "faithful" one - who fails to prove that he "really is" faithful?

As Jesus notes in Matthew 6:23, "If in reality the light that is in you is darkness, how great that darkness is!" In like manner, if the "faith" and 'discretion' of the F&DS is in reality "evil", how great that evil is, since it is an evil that has deceived many millions of people.

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menrov
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#24 Post by menrov » 6 years ago

HI qspf9 , I enjoyed this post.

AmosAU
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#25 Post by AmosAU » 6 years ago

This brought to mind the following verses from 1 Peter 5;

1Pet. 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Regards, Amos.

peely
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#26 Post by peely » 6 years ago

You have used wonderful rationale, qspf9; I have reasoned the same myself - I just can't put it into words like you can. Amos, I see that your scripture applies perfectly in that it says, “Neither as being lords over God's heritage”

In light of qspf9’s words, Could it be that the "evil" slave is actually the supposedly "faithful" one - who fails to prove that he "really is" faithful?,
1 Pet 5 goes on to say:

Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world. 1 Pet 5:8,9

Satan projects his evil into others, in this case, to the sell-out Harlot, the evil slave who is also none other than Wormwood. Rev 8:11

qspf9 - Who in modern times has not only believed the master would return at some predicted time (1874, 1914, 1925, 1975, etc.) but has publicly said so? Is it not the self-proclaimed "faithful and discrete slave"? Does that not suggest the "faithful" slave is in fact "evil"?

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God,(God’s heritage) proclaiming himself to be God." 2 Thess 2:1-4

Ah yes, this self-proclaimed “faithful steward” has, at her (The Harlot’s) bidding, enabled another identity to become lord "over God’s heritage” – the man of lawlessness. Rev.11:2; Dan.8:13,10; 13:7,18; Jer 12:9-11

The man of lawlessness (those who run, and are at the heart of the organization) has taken a seat in the temple of God with what seems like crowns of gold (elders, considered princes blessed with Holy Spirit). Rev 9:7 “God’s heritage has been profaned by these “foreigners”, “uncircumcised” ones, who pass judgment over His own inheritance. Rev 9:7; Lam.1:10; Eze.44: 6-9; Dan.11:31)

What entity did the Jewish religious leaders use to get to Christ? John 19:15 It was the uncircumcised Romans, “standing”( to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything) in the holy place. Matt 24:15. This was an abomination, a disgusting thing, lording it over God’s Temple. I see the historic pattern of rule happening today through the organization. The self-proposed “faithful steward” has given these “foreigners” power to spiritually “kill” any anointed one who challenges the wicked slave’s authority – God views it as a disgusting thing within His Temple. Rev 8:10,11; Rev.9:1-3; 11:7; Ps 144:11

The “faithful slave/steward” who conveniently teaches that the “wicked slave” as “just a warning” is in fact, the sharp reality of the “wicked slave” in all its insidiousness and intriguing presence.

Can it really be all that bad? Isn’t this organization just another of many in the line of religious rule? The only other place to venture on a fulfillment of Revelation and BEASTS is the worldly nations. That is where most eyes fall for fulfillment and the meaning of the coming end. Could Satan “outwit” us in our endeavor to understand? 2 Cor 2:11. Could he set an unbelievable snare gilded with “peace” to lead us in? Prov 1:10-19; Jer 6:14; Mic 3:5; 1 Thess 5:3; Luke 17:20

We beg the Father to grant us the spirit and truth needed for the vital discernment necessary as events unfold. Matt.16:17; 13:11; Luke 10:21; John 7:16; 8:47

Thus says the LORD concerning all my evil neighbors who touch the heritage that I have given my people Israel to inherit: “Behold, I will pluck them up from their land, and I will pluck up the house of Judah from among them. And after I have plucked them up, I will again have compassion on them, and I will bring them again each to his heritage and each to his land. Jer 12:14,15

And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. 1 Pet 5:10; Rev 11:7-15

http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.c ... -stay.html

love,
peely

Bobcat
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#27 Post by Bobcat » 6 years ago

On an earlier post on this thread (here) I supplied a link to a page that has examples of the Society's view of the F&DS parable over the years. In looking at that link again I saw the author's description/summation of the parable and I thought his take on it was interesting in comparison with the experience most of us have with the WT:
Christ has appointed teachers or pastors to feed the flock. When their Lord and Master returns he finds them doing what is right and they will be rewarded. It is an encouragement to all ministers of the gospel, it is the church that is the household. Jesus is not singling out any particular person to be appointed over his church. Any person can become faithful and wise by serving faithfully. This is juxtaposed with the unfaithful servant who abuses people and has others serve him.
The interesting part I am referring to is his description of the 'evil slave':
This is juxtaposed with the unfaithful servant who abuses people and has others serve him.
Bobcat

leaving_quietly
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#28 Post by leaving_quietly » 6 years ago

There is another problem with the passage about the evil slave. What does this evil slave DO? He says, 'My master is delaying'.
I would add that this evil slave does not say this outwardly.

But if ever that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and he starts to beat his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and he will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his place with the hypocrites. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be.

There is no one on earth who can know what the evil slave is thinking or feeling. However, the thought/feeling of that slave would be followed by actions: beating his fellow slaves and eating and drinking with the confirmed drunkards. How might the evil slave "beat" his fellow slaves? Abuse comes in multiple forms.
1. Physical
2. Verbal
3. Emotional
4. Psychological

I recently learned from researching divorce and separation issues (in case it ever comes up for me) that simply the act of intentionally blocking someone's path so they can't exit a room or go through a doorway is considered abuse by human courts.

An emotional and psychological abuser might tell his/her spouse often that they are not good enough. That they're not doing enough. That they can't get things right. They may not say it outright. It's often subtle.
"You're pretty, no matter what anyone else says." (a compliment followed by a dig... this could be abuse)
"Why can't you get dinner done on time?" (controlling)
"I want <x, y and z> done by the time I get home." (controlling)
"You're not doing it right. Here, let me help you." (said often enough and about enough things, this could be abuse)
"Where are you going? How long will you be gone? Who are you going to be with?" (normal questions, but if asked every time the victim goes out, this could be abuse)
"I won't let you..." (controlling)
etc.

How might the evil slave "eat and drink" with drunkards? I can think of a few ways:
1. Literally, physically
2. Spiritually
3. Commercially (the phrase, "drunk with power" comes to mind)

Regarding the JW version of the F&DS, it would actually be impossible for the GB to be that. The GB did not exist in 1919. What they described in the July 2013 WT amounts to apostolic succession. Rutherford, then Knorr, then Franz, then the GB (can't recall the line exactly... but you get the point.) Of this, I'm reminded of what Christ said to the Ephesian congregation in Revelation 2:2: "I know your deeds, and your labor and endurance, and that you cannot tolerate bad men, and that you put to the test those who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them to be liars." It is not absolutely appropriate to test anyone who claims to have the highest position in Christ's congregation. After all, per the hierarchy found at 1 Cor 12:28, apostles are "first". Thus, the GB, while not claiming to be apostles, are placing themselves in this first position. Thus, they open themselves, and properly so, to scrutiny. This isn't "speaking abusively of glorious ones". This is simply testing them out to see whether they truly are apostles (or "sent forth ones") or not.

leaving_quietly
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#29 Post by leaving_quietly » 6 years ago

Meant to say, It is absolutely appropriate to test anyone who claims to have the highest position in Christ's congregation. (Not "It is not...")

Bobcat
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Re: Faithful and discrete slave - Luke

#30 Post by Bobcat » 6 years ago

Good point(s), LQ! And thanks for referencing 1 Cor 12:28 & Rev 2:2. At the KH, anyone 'daring' to question the GB (or, nowadays, even to quote from a non-WT publication) brings the evil-eye of apostate leanings and/or the terrible 'disease' of independent thinking.

Bobcat

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