Zechariah 8:23 & Isaiah 45:14

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Bobcat
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Zechariah 8:23 & Isaiah 45:14

#1 Post by Bobcat » 7 years ago

I was prompted by a comment on the BP site (here) to write this post showing what my personal research has found regarding Zechariah 8:23 and Isaiah 45:14.

Sometimes the WT presents prophecies with an explanation that seems to allow for non-anointed Christians, or what the WT would call ‘friends or companions of anointed Christians.’ Two of these prophecies are:
Zech 8:23, where it mentions 10 gentiles grabbing hold of the skirt of a Jew. (see w09 2/15 p. 27, pars. 13-17)

Isa 45:14, which speaks of the unpaid laborers of Egypt serving as slaves to the Jews. (see w08 1/15 p. 26 pars. 6, 7)

The WT usually mentions these two prophecies in connection with the "great crowd" of Revelation 7 and the need for said "great crowd" to always follow and be subservient to the "anointed" (in practical terms, the GB) .

But what the WT never mentions (at least I have never found a WT publication reference to) is that Paul alluded to a fulfillment of these two prophecies in the 1st century.

In the NWT (both old and new) at 1 Cor 14:25, at the very end of the verse, where it says, "God is really among YOU," the reference column cites Zechariah 8:23 and Isaiah 45:14. The NWT is not being original in citing these two prophecies in connection with 1 Cor 14:23-25. (Even the venerable KJV reference column has these two verses cited at the end of 1Co 14:25.)

In the context of 1Co 14:20-25, the "10 gentiles" and the "unpaid laborers" of Zech 8:23 & Isa 45:14 are, what Paul referred to as, the “ordinary people or unbelievers” (NWT, see other renderings here) who show an interest in Christianity. But once these "ordinary people or unbelievers" become Christian, then, they themselves become part of the Jew(s)/Israel to which subsequent unbelievers seek to associate with.

If these non-Jews in the prophecies of Zech 8:23 & Isa 45:14 were "non-anointed Christians" (i.e the great crowd, as WT understands it), then, there shouldn't be any 1st century application. Nor would it make sense to describe a fellow Christian as an 'ordinary person or unbeliever.' This fact explains why the WT never mentions any such 1st century application.

Concerning 1 Cor 14:25, the Commentary on the NT Use of the OT (G. K. Beale and D. A. Carson, p.742), says, in part:
Part of the solution may be found in the relationship between Paul's quotation of Isa 28:11-12 in 1Co 14:21 and his allusion to Isa 45:14 and Zech 8:23 in 1Co 14:25. While 1Co 14:22 mentions both believers and unbelievers, the illustrations in 1Co 14:23-25 focus exclusively on unbelievers and the way they respond to an encounter with a community that is speaking in tongues or one that is prophesying. . . His [Paul's] allusion to Isa 45:14, on the other hand, relates to a later phase in God's relationship with his people, one when even Gentiles would come to recognize the presence of God in the midst of his people and would worship him for who he really is. . .

. . . In Paul's scenario "it is the church - itself a predominately Gentile community - through which God will accomplish the eschatological conversion of outsiders," and the Corinthian believers have "stepped into the role originally assigned to Israel in Isaiah's eschatological drama." Hence the church is the fulfillment of Isaiah's [chap.45] prophecy about Israel.

The NET Bible, in a footnote (# 10) at Zech 8:23 says similarly:
sn This scene of universal and overwhelming attraction of the nations to Israel’s God finds initial fulfillment in the establishment of the church (Acts 2:5-11) but ultimate completion in the messianic age (Isa 45:14, 24; 60:14; Zech 14:16-21).

[Scripture references in the above quote were reworked so as to be compatible with the RefTagger app. - Bobcat]

Comments, criticism, or further elucidation are most welcome.

For further reference:
1. For cross reference purposes, this thread has a similar discussion of this topic. This article on the BP site also discusses this topic, although, from a little bit different perspective.

2. See post # 3 below (here) for comments on the phrase, "ordinary people or unbelievers."

3. Zech 8:23 says that this situation would take place in "the those days." Regarding what time period NT writers understood "the last days" to be, see this post.

4. See this thread for a discussion of the Great Crowd in relation to the Abrahamic and New Covenants.

Bobcat

Jannai40
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Re: Zechariah 8:23 & Isaiah 45:14

#2 Post by Jannai40 » 7 years ago

Reading Zechariah 8:23 and Isaiah 45:14 and take away the FDS GB and the Great Crowd, brings you back to Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 14:20-25. What an interesting scripture.

Bobcat
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Re: Zechariah 8:23 & Isaiah 45:14

#3 Post by Bobcat » 7 years ago

Regarding the phrase, “ordinary people or unbelievers” (1Co 14:23; Greek ἰδιῶται ἢ ἄπιστοι), the BECNT-1 Corinthians commentary (David E. Garland, p.651) says:
Those who are uninitiated (cf. 1Co 14:16), or as Findlay (1910: 910) aptly renders it, "unacquainted with Christianity," do not belong to a different category from the unbeliever, though the two nouns are listed separately (Schrage 1999: 411). The two terms supplement each other in describing the visitor as an "unbelieving outsider" (Barrett 1068: 324). They are not undecided Christians or seekers, but unbelievers who are ignorant of Christianity. These persons could include the non-Christian spouse (1Co 7:12-15), unconverted slaves, invited guests, or possibly the curious who might wander in.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Vol. II, p. 539) describes the phrase this way:
Furthermore, newcomers (idiotai, those who attended but were not believers) and other unbelievers (apistoi) who were aware of but as yet unconvinced by the gospel message (unlike those of 1Co 14:21-22 who had forthrightly rejected it) . . .

Bobcat

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menrov
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Re: Zechariah 8:23 & Isaiah 45:14

#4 Post by menrov » 7 years ago

Jannai40 wrote:
52 years ago
Reading Zechariah 8:23 and Isaiah 45:14 and take away the FDS GB and the Great Crowd, brings you back to Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 14:20-25. What an interesting scripture.
I was not aware of the explanation by the WT. I jusr read it and seems clear it was a first century fulfilment. I guess that is the difference when one can read the bible sometimes without a reference model. Thanks anyway for explanation.

Anjinsan
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Re: Zechariah 8:23 & Isaiah 45:14

#5 Post by Anjinsan » 7 years ago

Hello,

Tying it in with 1 Cor. 14 : 25, sounds more reasonable to my sense of reason.

Thanks for the research.

With Love.

Bobcat
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Re: Zechariah 8:23 & Isaiah 45:14

#6 Post by Bobcat » 6 years ago

Just linking comments I made on the BP site that relate to this thread: Here.

Bobcat

Bobcat
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Re: Zechariah 8:23 & Isaiah 45:14

#7 Post by Bobcat » 5 years ago

During the WT Study today (2/7/16) paragraph 10 refers to Zech 8:23. The conductor asks 'What time period do "those days" of Zech 8:23 refer to?"

"A brother," who doesn't answer so often was called on and he said that 'Paul alluded to that verse in 1 Cor 14:25 and indicated that it was already seeing fulfillment in his day. You can see it referred to in the reference column scriptures for that verse.'

I suspect that the conductor was not expecting that answer (seeing how Rev 7:9, 10 was listed right beside it in the paragraph). But the conductor took it in stride and acted as if he already knew this. Curious. I saw several looking up the verse as soon as it was mentioned, but heard no feedback whatsoever.


True story.
Bobcat

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menrov
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Re: Zechariah 8:23 & Isaiah 45:14

#8 Post by menrov » 5 years ago

in the NIV the following footnotes are given at Zech. 8:23: Ps. 102:22, Isa 14:1, 45:14, 56:3 and 1 Cor. 14:25. And at 1 Cor. 14:25, it gives Isa 45:14 and Zech. 8:23.

In the online NWT only ISA 45:14 is provided as reference for Zech 8:23. However, for 1 Cor. 14:25, the NWT gives Isa 45:14 and Zech 8:23 as reference.
Strange that Rev. 7:9,10 is mentioned in the article together with Zech 8:23 and none of the bibles make that link. Also, Rev, 7:9,10 is about a future event whereas Zech 8:23 as been fulfilled (depending on the explanation it could be 1st century or 20th century).
My assumption is that the writer of the article wants to give the impression that by following the organization (Jew in Zech 8:23) the great crowd will be saved.

Bobcat
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Re: Zechariah 8:23 & Isaiah 45:14

#9 Post by Bobcat » 5 years ago

You are quite correct Menrov. Per the WT, the "Jew" of Zech 8:23 is an "anointed Christian," of which (according to the WT) there are very few still alive on earth in our time (contra the prediction at Gal 4:26, 27), and of which only the ones taking the lead in Brooklyn (now Warwick) are of any significance. The 'ten men from the nations' can only be the "great crowd" of Rev 7:9, 10 (again per the WT) because it is only in our time that "non-anointed Christians" are gathered. (w09 2/15 p. 27 par. 13 for example - simply look up Zechariah 8:23 in the WT Library publications index for numerous references to this point.)

Going strictly by WT dogma, there cannot be a 1st Century fulfillment of Zech 8:23. So it is quite interesting to see the conductor, and the audience for that matter, simply shrug off the link with 1 Cor 14:25 as blase'.

The "great crowd" are indeed related to Zech 8:23. The fact that they come from "every nation, tribe, tongue, . . ." harks back to the promise to Abraham (Gen 22:17-18) which begins to find its fulfillment in the 1st Century (Gal 3:13-14), but which fulfillment reaches all the way down to the end of the age.

And just as the Galatian Christians "receive[d] the promised spirit through [their] faith" in Christ, there is no difference with the great crowd. (Rev 7:10, 14) So there is no reason to think that there would be any difference between them and the Galatians as far as 'receiving the promised spirit' is concerned. Which puts the WT, with its two-tier Christianity system, in a rather difficult position (Mt 23:13). (For an in depth consideration of the Great Crowd as they relate to the Abrahamic and New Covenants, see this thread.)

Just as an observation, very few at the KH seem to be really analyzing what they hear.


Bobcat

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menrov
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Re: Zechariah 8:23 & Isaiah 45:14

#10 Post by menrov » 5 years ago

Hi Bobcat, you said
As an observation, very few seem to be really analyzing what they hear
Funny you mention this. I agree but in my experience I noticed I am often criticized for paying too much attention to what I hear or read....too detailed...like I am looking for issues....
Well...there is no cook that can satisfy all tastes (or something like that :D )

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