Worship Jesus

This is the place to discuss anything to do with scriptural doctrine. It is the primary purpose of this site, and most discussions will be here.
Forum rules
Matt 18:6; Eccl 7:9; 1 Pet 4:8 (If you're not sure what they say then please hover over them with your mouse or look them up in your own Bible before posting)
Message
Author
Proselytiser of Jah
Posts: 336
Joined: 5 months ago
Contact:

Re: Worship Jesus

#41 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago

So when I speak of change, I'm refering to a transition from one state to another. So when I say God does not change, I am referring to that definition.

Meaning, that with what you've said, the following must have happened.

1: God had eternal substance

2: He separated himself from some of his eternal substance

3: He gave that separated eternal substance to Christ.


It is at point two that I'm saying a change happened. Which by the definition I've been using is, a transition from one state to another. God went from being unseparated to his eternal substance, to being separated from his eternal substance. That is where the change occurred, in your idea.

Which is why I ask you, do you think God can change? By definition I'm using? It really is a simple Yes or No question.
By that definition, no. Because God is already "everything" so what can he change into? He has nothing to gain and nothing to lose.


(I actually opened a new subject on this whole thought process if you want to see my thread on that "Jesus' creation/Begetting". I discuss these potential ideas and the definitions of "change" and "sameness", I thought it was better to have a dedicated thread and get this one back on its OP track).
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

goghtherefore
Posts: 210
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Worship Jesus

#42 Post by goghtherefore » 2 weeks ago

A great audio visual presentation, imo:

Jehovah’s Witnesses Say it is Wrong to Worship Jesus, but Are Happy to Worship Men

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61MrudwPEOo


...
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

Get out of her
Posts: 1090
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Worship Jesus

#43 Post by Get out of her » 2 weeks ago

Let's by all means address these two video presentations on these various Greek words that are at times translated as worship in the New Testament.

With regard to this first video presentation, (post# 1) did we all notice what just happened here yet again on Hebrews 1:6 when she opened up her Bible word dictionary to the Greek word proskuneo? Like almost everyone else she chooses to completely ignore ALL the definitions except the one listed as the LAST possible option! But what made things even much worse is that just prior to this she herself right in front of our faces was so bold as to read Matthew 4:10 word for word or otherwise one of MANY scriptures that make it perfectly clear that this particular definition is NOT an option in the case of Hebrews 1:6! As far as I'm concerned she might as well have just spit directly in Jehovah's face!

Personally I would not be surprised if at the time the New Testament was penned the word worship was not even confused with or equated with the concept of obeisance or respectful submission, or otherwise not recognized AT ALL as one of the prospective meanings of proskuneo. Scriptures like Matthew 4:10 and Revelation 22:8, 9, 16 that DIRECTLY contradict the notion of actual worship being directed towards Jesus seem in fact to strongly support this notion. It’s a well established fact that over time new meanings somehow manage to be added to various words. It wasn't that long ago that the word gay simply meant happy.

With regard to Meleti's video on this same topic:

While I'd have to insist that the greater portion of what he covered is in perfect harmony with the Holy Scriptures and that I believe he has nothing but the best of intentions, here is the problem/conflict or even contradiction I see with the scriptures and in fact also his line of reasoning on the Greek word proskuneo as it relates to Jesus.

As compelling as BOTH these video presentations might initially appear to many people, it really boils down to this: IN VIEW of scriptures such as the above, HOW exactly do we NOT worship Jesus and at the same time WORSHIP him? Obviously this ALREADY should appear as a rather glaring contradiction. But (not to be harsh or disrespectful) it gets even worse when we endeavor to factor in his reasoning on how this would allegedly be possible.

Basically his position or approach to this dilemma is for people to begin recognizing specifically or even exclusively the word proskuneo (among the various words translated at times as worship) as a different KIND of worship, which in this case would be defined as respectful submission and obedience, and respect even to the degree of bowing to someone. What would I suggest is the problem with this approach?

Well first of all, this very thing is commanded in the scriptures also of children with respect to their parents, or even wives in relation to their husbands. (1 Cor 11:3) Are we to begin understanding that children are commanded by Jehovah to actually worship their parents? And if we were to take the position that this respectful appreciation would not be at the LEVEL of proskuneo, then how do we begin reconciling things such a how the ancient Sarah was praised for obeying her husband Abraham while even calling him Lord! (1 Pe 3:6)

Now if we were to argue perhaps that we would draw the line at actually BOWING in connection with this assigning of great honor to avoid actual worship, then wouldn't this mean that everyone who bows to a king or a magistrate is guilty of actually WORSHIPING them? In fact as I've mentioned before, in the Japanese culture people routinely bow to virtually EVERYONE on a daily basis. In their case this is merely a greeting along with a gesture of respect and appreciation, certainly NOT an act of worship!

Upon endeavoring to invest just a bit more thought and scriptural analysis into this issue, could we really recognize that this approach would qualify as "rendering our sacred service with our power of reason" and "carefully searching the scriptures as to whether these things are so"? (Ro 12:1) (Ac 17:11) Once again IN VIEW of scriptures like Mathew 4:10, would it not make much more sense to simply recognize that there are often SEVERAL definitions for various words which in fact happens to be the CASE with proskuneo, and that the specific CONTEXT we are considering would determine which definition we should choose? (1 Pe 2:17) Wouldn't a more careful consideration of these things make it clear that it would ultimately be the specific MOTIVES behind our actions that would draw the line between respectful obedience and actual worship?

If in our own case we simply CANNOT seem to work out the actual distinction between these two things that passages like Revelation 22:8, 9, 16 absolutely DEMAND, then perhaps we are among ones who would very much benefit by cultivation the habit of learning to rely much more on the scriptures themselves rather than their "own understanding." (Pr 3:5) Scriptures such as1st Peter 2:17 seem to do perfectly well in delineating the distinction between rendering obeisance to someone as opposed to actual worship:


"Honor men of all sorts, have love for the whole association of brothers, be in FEAR of GOD, have HONOR for the KING."


Agape love;
Sol

Get out of her
Posts: 1090
Joined: 5 years ago

Re: Worship Jesus

#44 Post by Get out of her » 2 weeks ago

Perhaps an even more effective way in which the Holy Scriptures help us to avoid idolatrous false worship when it comes to assigning the proper degree of honor to Jesus while at the same time rendering actual worship "exclusively" to Jehovah is to simply consider the role that Jesus was assigned as a "mediator." (Ex 20:5) (1 Ti 2:5)

I imagine all of us could at least agree that prayer is among the things that would qualify as an actual form of worship as opposed to merely the assigning of great honor and respect to someone, and even someone we might be wholly obedient to. I believe we could also agree that anyone we are actually directing that prayer TOWARDS would at the very least qualify as OUR god or perhaps even ONE of our gods (as alarming as that may sound) if not the one TRUE God. With that in mind we might do well to consider the following questions:

Could we point to even one scripture in the entire Bible in which we ever instructed or commanded to pray to Jesus; or even Jehovah's provision of salvation (the very definition of this name) as OPPOSED to Jehovah himself? In fact since the "son" was CREATED by the father, would not that fact alone mean that any worship directed towards this "son" would qualify as "rendering sacred service to the creation rather than the one who created"? (Col 1:15) (Pr 8:22) (Ro 1:25)

Yes we would all have to concede that we were only instructed to pray THROUGH Jesus as opposed to praying TO him. (Joh 16:23, 24) This is of course AMONG the reasons he is also clearly identified in the scriptures as our "MEDIATOR" as opposed to MERELY our king and leader, or even our "head." (Eph 1:22, 23) Once again we find here also in Ephesians that the true Christian congregation of Jesus' fellow anointed "brothers" is in fact the very "BODY" of this "head" or "foundation cornerstone" of Jehovah's spiritual "temple." In the case of the anointed ones at least or otherwise the very DEFINITION of Christ, are we not once again actually considering SELF worship when it comes to the notion of praying TO Jesus as opposed to THROUGH him as we have always been commanded? (Mt 25:40) (1 Pe 2:6) (1 Cor 3:16, 17)

Yes in relation to Jehovah himself at least, a mediator is a mere channel, a conduit or go-between, certainly not the one we are praying TO or otherwise "rendering sacred service" TOWARDS. Jesus himself made it perfectly clear that we are to pray "IN HIS NAME" while ultimately directing our prayers to his "FATHER." (Joh 14:13, 14) (Mt 6:9) In this manner we clear up any confusion over what distinguishes things like "obeisance" or even submissive obedience from actual worship, and by extension we avoid the sin of idolatry.

Agape love;
Sol

johnamos2.0
Posts: 158
Joined: 4 months ago

Re: Worship Jesus

#45 Post by johnamos2.0 » 2 weeks ago

7812. shachah
Definition: to bow down

4352. proskuneó
Definition: to do reverence to
Usage: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship.


Reverence - deep respect for someone or something.

Venerate – a feeling of awe, respect; reverence

Adoration - the act of paying honor, as to a divine being; worship.

bow down - bend one's knee or body, or lower one's head;

just - Precisely; exactly

exactly - in every respect; just

Hebrews 1:6 But when he again brings his Firstborn+ into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels (4352) him.”

Isaiah 60:14 The sons of those who oppressed you will come and bow down before you; All those treating you disrespectfully must bow down at your feet, And they will have to call you the city of Jehovah, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.+

Jeremiah 7:2 “Stand in the gate of the house of Jehovah and proclaim there this message, ‘Hear the word of Jehovah, all you people of Judah who enter these gates to bow down to Jehovah.

Philippians 2:10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground

Psalm 95:6 Come, let us worship and bow down; Let us kneel before Jehovah our Maker.+

Matthew 2:11 And when they went into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and falling down, they (4352) him.

John 5:23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.+

Revelation 5:11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads* and thousands of thousands,+ 12 and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered+ is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.”+ 13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth+ and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne+ and to the Lamb+ be the blessing and the honor+ and the glory and the might forever and ever.”+ 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and (4352)

goghtherefore
Posts: 210
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Worship Jesus

#46 Post by goghtherefore » 2 weeks ago

Hi Get out of her

Thank you for your responses and in particular reference to Colossians 1:15-17 ESV

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Imo the phrase: "firstborn of all creation" does not mean first created. The phrase describes the firstborn after which he(the Word/Logos),created "all things" (including angels). The Word/Logos was "before all things" (except YHVH). It seems the word "worship" is being defined differently by every individual. The word "worship" used about or toward Jesus does not mean the exact same as using the word "worship" about or toward our Heavenly Father.

JW's as part of their worship sing songs of praise to the "faithful slave"/governing body.

The song "The Shulammite Remnant" comes to mind. Other examples: 43 Stay Awake, Stand Firm, Grow Mighty – “Stay awake, and keep your senses, Always ready to obey. Staying alert to Christ’s direction, through his faithful slave to day. Heed the counsel of the older men, Who protect his sheep and truth defend.”

63 Ever Loyal – “Ever loyal to their guidance. When our brothers take the lead, When they give us clear directions, May our mind and heart give heed.”

84 I Want To – “Oh, what help Jehovah God gave, when he sent the faithful wise slave, With whom we serve with joy, Our powers employ, that meek ones we might help to save.”

116 The Light Gets Brighter – “Our Lord has appointed a trustworthy slave, Through whom He gives food in due season. The light of the truth has grown brighter with time, Appealing to heart and to reason. Our path ever clearer, our steps ever firm, We walk in the brightness of day.”

125 Loyally Submitting to the theocratic Order – “God provides his steward and his active force. These will ever guide us in our Christian course. So may we be steadfast, seeking God to please, Loyally proclaiming all his wise decrees!”

I find singing praises (worship songs) toward and or about HYVH and our Lord Jesus Christ most appropriate. Songs of worship to any other(s) is most inappropriate (the phrase "anti-Christ" comes to mind).


Regards,

goghtherefore
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

goghtherefore
Posts: 210
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Worship Jesus

#47 Post by goghtherefore » 2 weeks ago

Hi johnamos2.0

Thank you so much for presenting scriptures.

Scriptures indicate the appropriateness of bowing to Jesus Christ. The Revelation Climax book "instruct" that the "faithful slave" must be bowed to (spiritually speaking).

If you teach Jesus is Michael, one of the angels and Abaddon, "Destroyer"/angel of the abyss in revelation; do you see yourself bowing to Michael and Abaddon? (as you do see them/acknowledge them as Jesus as well). Would you even consider praying in the name of Michael or Abaddon (because you understand them to be Jesus Christ)?

Regards,

goghtherefore
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

goghtherefore
Posts: 210
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Worship Jesus

#48 Post by goghtherefore » 2 weeks ago

Hi Get out of her

Pertaining to exclusively approaching YHVH, thank you for posting the link to John 14:13, 14

Jesus states at verse 14: "If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it."

Paul also spoke to (prayed/asked/pleaded) Jesus. And Jesus answered.

2 Corinthians 12:8–9
The New International Version

"Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me."


Regards,

goghtherefore
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

johnamos2.0
Posts: 158
Joined: 4 months ago

Re: Worship Jesus

#49 Post by johnamos2.0 » 2 weeks ago

Exodus 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother,+ so that you may live a long time in the land that Jehovah your God is giving you.+

John 4:44 Jesus himself, however, bore witness that a prophet has no honor in his own homeland.

John 8:49 Jesus answered: “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me.

John 5:23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.+

2 Kings 4:37 And she proceeded to come in and fall at his (Elisha) feet and bow down to him to the earth,+ after which she lifted up her son and went out.+

1 Samuel 25:23 When Abʹi·gail caught sight of David, she at once hastened and got down off the ass and fell upon her face before David and bowed+ to the earth.

1 Samuel 24:8 So David rose up afterward and went out from the cave and called out after Saul, saying: “My lord+ the king!” At this Saul looked behind him, and David proceeded to bow low with his face to the earth+ and prostrate himself.

2 Kings 5:18 But may Jehovah forgive your servant for this one thing: When my lord goes into the house* of Rimʹmon to bow down there, he supports himself on my arm, so I have to bow down at the house of Rimʹmon. When I bow down at the house of Rimʹmon, may Jehovah, please, forgive your servant for this.”

Daniel 3:5 that when you hear the sound of the horn, pipe, zither, triangular harp, stringed instrument, bagpipe, and all the other musical instruments, you must fall down and worship the image of gold that King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar has set up

Matthew 4:9 And he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.

Revelation 22:8 Well I, John, was the one hearing and seeing these things. When I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing me these things.

Clearly, bowing down and paying honor (adoration) is associated with worshipping one, not all bowing down and paying honor is worshipping one.

johnamos2.0
Posts: 158
Joined: 4 months ago

Re: Worship Jesus

#50 Post by johnamos2.0 » 2 weeks ago

If you teach Jesus is Michael, one of the angels and Abaddon, "Destroyer"/angel of the abyss in revelation; do you see yourself bowing to Michael and Abaddon? (as you do see them/acknowledge them as Jesus as well). Would you even consider praying in the name of Michael or Abaddon (because you understand them to be Jesus Christ)?
When have I ever stated that Jesus was Abaddon?

I have said that IMO it seems Jesus is Michael and I have also said maybe he is not and have separated the two as though they were different in order to compare the two.

Do you know what angel John fell down at the feet to worship?
Revelation 15:1

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot], Semrush [Bot] and 1 guest