Worship Jesus

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goghtherefore
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Re: Worship Jesus

#31 Post by goghtherefore » 2 weeks ago

Hi Illusive

Regarding post #24: "Divine Simplicity cannot answer how God created things. There is no one who can do that."

Jesus answered:

"But Jesus answered them, To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.”
John 5:17: (Berean Study Bible)


I do not understand scriptures I have quoted to be contradictions of YHVH; only to be understood in different context to Numbers 23:19.



Regards,

goghtherefore
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

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Illusive
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Re: Worship Jesus

#32 Post by Illusive » 2 weeks ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 2 weeks ago
Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago

If you say God took something away from himself and that there are now two uncreated eternal things, one of which is not God. You're going to find yourself in the same dilemma as Euthyphro. If you're worried about being boxed in, the limitation is this: You're not allowed to be anything other than a monotheist, and you are not allowed to believe contradictions. There is only one eternal nature. It does not make sense that there would be two eternal natures. I doubt Arius would dare to say that God can change, I got the idea that one of his contentions was that accepting the trinity would indicate a change in God, but perhaps I'm mistaken and he was a polytheist.

Either way it is sacred scripture that says God does not change. He is immutable. Can you really say out loud to yourself "God is mutable"? There is no monotheist who would dare say that.

You're not understanding me.

I never said God himself "changes". Nor did I say there are two eternal beings. You're saying "God taking part of his substance to create his son is God changing", but it doesn't have to be. That's assumption, it's arbitrary. We know God is unchanging, but we don't know in "what manner", or the "mechanics" behind it.
Would you agree that the word "change" can be defined as - a transition from one state to another?
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Stranger
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Re: Worship Jesus

#33 Post by Stranger » 2 weeks ago

goghtherefore wrote: 2 weeks ago I do not understand scriptures I have quoted to be contradictions of YHVH; only to be understood in different context to Numbers 23:19.
Way to go Gogh,

This thread has went way out yonder way of it's title, man your wheel, and steer it back straight. :D



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goghtherefore
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Re: Worship Jesus

#34 Post by goghtherefore » 2 weeks ago

Hi Proselytiser of Jah

Re: Post #30: "...I would have to subscribe to either option 1 or 3."

I, on the other hand, appreciate how you have presented option 2. 😎


Regards,

goghtherefore
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Worship Jesus

#35 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

Stranger wrote: 2 weeks ago
goghtherefore wrote: 2 weeks ago I do not understand scriptures I have quoted to be contradictions of YHVH; only to be understood in different context to Numbers 23:19.
This thread has went way out yonder way of it's title, man your wheel, and steer it back straight. :D
It's why I tried to direct it to the DS thread to respect the OP :lol:
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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Re: Worship Jesus

#36 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago
Would you agree that the word "change" can be defined as - a transition from one state to another?
I don't see anything wrong with that. Alternatively, God may have "variation" within the realms of his "unchanginness".

For a certainty, God's moral standards and persona do not change. Eternally he is love, power, wisdom, etc. He will never suddenly "become evil" or "become a liar". However, his "unchanging nature" may contain "internal changeability/adaptability". Like a Rubix cube.

We might say, "the Rubix cube hasn't be changed since it was released in 1974", but in what way? In that, its colour combinations can't be switched about? No, rather, its design and nature has remained consistent.

Therefore, for all we know, God's "unchangingness", may not refer to the things we assume them to mean. Maybe God "can" take from himself, from his substance, perhaps that is one of his "unchanging abilities"? The ability to do that, without being diminished somehow... who knows.

It's all contextual. Right?
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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Illusive
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Re: Worship Jesus

#37 Post by Illusive » 2 weeks ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 2 weeks ago
Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago
Would you agree that the word "change" can be defined as - a transition from one state to another?
I don't see anything wrong with that. Alternatively, God may have "variation" within the realms of his "unchanginness".

For a certainty, God moral standards and persona do not change. Eternally he is love, power, wisdom, etc. He will never suddenly "become evil" or "become a liar". However, his "unchanging nature" may contain "internal changeability/adaptability". Like a Rubix cube.
Either God changes, or he doesn't. God cannot be both changing and unchanging at the same time and in the same respect, that's called a contradiction, and if we are accepting contradictions, then you shouldn't have a problem with heretical so-called trinitarians saying that God can literally be both three and one at the same time and in the same respect. It's the same contradiction that makes no sense.

The reason God cannot be literally three and one at the same time, is because that violates two laws of logic known as the law of identity and the law of non-contradiction. Contradictions can never be the truth. For God to be both changing and unchanging at the same time and in the same respect would also violate the law of non-contradiction.

You're going to have to decide whether you believe God can change or not for this and contemplate the logic behind it. You can't have both.


If God changes, then I'm going to ask you this question:

Does God love goodness because it is good, or is something good because God loves it?
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Re: Worship Jesus

#38 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago
Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 2 weeks ago
Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago
Would you agree that the word "change" can be defined as - a transition from one state to another?
I don't see anything wrong with that. Alternatively, God may have "variation" within the realms of his "unchanginness".

For a certainty, God moral standards and persona do not change. Eternally he is love, power, wisdom, etc. He will never suddenly "become evil" or "become a liar". However, his "unchanging nature" may contain "internal changeability/adaptability". Like a Rubix cube.
Either God changes, or he doesn't. God cannot be both changing and unchanging at the same time and in the same respect, that's called a contradiction
You've still missed the point. It's not a contradiction. It only is to your eyes.

Again I will repeat "In what manner" is God unchanging? That is the real question. His persona? His substance? Both? It need not be a contradiction, because "unchanging" can be contextual.

I agree. God "is" his qualities, he does not "contain them", for that would mean they came from somewhere else.

However, I do not think this limits him on his potential ability to self perpetuate and beget his substance into a separate creation at the same time. That need not be a "change" in himself, but something that is "part of his nature" that he can do. You've locked yourself in to a specific paradigm and don't seem to be able to see in a different perspective on the potentialities (that wasn't a DS joke).

I make no statement on God's nature, because I can't conceive of it. I only point to scripture and its potential interpretations, and if something "appears" contradictory, but is in fact scriptural fact (not that I say it is), then it is what it is.

But I have a feeling this conversation is exhausted, I can see we're beginning to go in circles.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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Re: Worship Jesus

#39 Post by Stranger » 2 weeks ago

Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago If God changes, then I'm going to ask you this question:

Does God love goodness because it is good, or is something good because God loves it?
Seems like everyway you tell your side you have God going in one direction and is incapable of circling or doing whatever His Will is and will be.

Were Jesus to be present with us here now, I would bet his Words to you would be:... "Quit Jamming Me". "(Don't waste your time with this kind of worship)"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy_l6Kj ... w&index=25


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Illusive
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Re: Worship Jesus

#40 Post by Illusive » 2 weeks ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 2 weeks ago
Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago
Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 2 weeks ago

I don't see anything wrong with that. Alternatively, God may have "variation" within the realms of his "unchanginness".

For a certainty, God moral standards and persona do not change. Eternally he is love, power, wisdom, etc. He will never suddenly "become evil" or "become a liar". However, his "unchanging nature" may contain "internal changeability/adaptability". Like a Rubix cube.
Either God changes, or he doesn't. God cannot be both changing and unchanging at the same time and in the same respect, that's called a contradiction
You've still missed the point. It's not a contradiction. It only is to your eyes.

Again I will repeat "In what manner" is God unchanging? That is the real question. His persona? His substance? Both? It need not be a contradiction, because "unchanging" can be contextual.

I agree. God "is" his qualities, he does not "contain them", for that would mean they came from somewhere else.

However, I do not think this limits him on his potential ability to self perpetuate and beget his substance into a separate creation at the same time. That need not be a "change" in himself, but something that is "part of his nature" that he can do. You've locked yourself in to a specific paradigm and don't seem to be able to see in a different perspective on the potentialities (that wasn't a DS joke).

I make no statement on God's nature, because I can't conceive of it. I only point to scripture and its potential interpretations, and if something "appears" contradictory, but is in fact scriptural fact (not that I say it is), then it is what it is.

But I have a feeling this conversation is exhausted, I can see we're beginning to go in circles.
Alright, so I think we need to both be clear on what is meant by "change" to continue this. Because either I'm misunderstanding you or you are saying contradictions are possible without giving a reason, and I don't think you would do that. To be clear, unless you can offer an explanation as to why God being unchanging and changing at the same time and in the same respect, it is a blatant contradiction, not just in my eyes. You cannot say "it's just a contradiction in your eyes" and not offer an alternative line of logic. You have to present a reason why it is not a contradiction.

If you try to appeal to my humanity and say I'm only using human logic, I have to remind you that God gave us the ability to use logic so that we could reason these things out and avoid being polytheists and follow monotheism. He has given us the means to know that contradictions can never be reality. Something cannot both be true and false at the same time. God cannot be both unchanging and changing at the same time in the same respect.

1: If God has ever changed in any respect - that logically means that God is a being that changes and has potentiality. You may say he changes in a respect different to all of humanity and that's fine, you may even use the word 'unchanging' to describe attributes of his that you think never change, but the fact would remain that he would change in some respect, and if you believe he does that then just say so.

2: If God has never changed in any respect - that logically would mean God is unchanging and is purely actual without potentialities. He would be a being that never changes in any respect, and we could properly say that.

I am presenting you this binary option and you are saying there's a third option where he changes like a rubix cube or something we "don't understand because we're human" or something. But that is not a third option because it would still fit into option 1, meaning, God would change in some respect, rendering him a changing being, which means he would also have parts of himself that possess a created beginning. I have seen so-called trinitarians try to use this line of reasoning, that I am limiting God by saying it is illogical for him to be three in one. Do not make the same mistake.

So when I speak of change, I'm refering to a transition from one state to another. So when I say God does not change, I am referring to that definition.

Meaning, that with what you've said, the following must have happened.

1: God had eternal substance

2: He separated himself from some of his eternal substance

3: He gave that separated eternal substance to Christ.


It is at point two that I'm saying a change happened. Which by the definition I've been using is, a transition from one state to another. God went from being unseparated to his eternal substance, to being separated from his eternal substance. That is where the change occurred, in your idea.

Which is why I ask you, do you think God can change? By definition I'm using? It really is a simple Yes or No question.
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