Command to Rebuild Jerusalem

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Marina
Posts: 2676
Joined: 6 years ago

Command to Rebuild Jerusalem

#1 Post by Marina » 2 weeks ago

There are different views on when the word went forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.

(Daniel 9:25) . . .And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times. . .

Personally I consider that word to have gone forth in the 1st year of Cyrus.

But WT states it was the 20th year of Artaxerxes.
*** w57 11/15 p. 678 Identifying the Messiah ***
God’s Word shows that the command to restore and build Jerusalem went forth in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes (III), which secular history shows to be the year 455 B.C. Counting 483 years from that time we come to A.D. 29, the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar. This was the very year that Jesus appeared as the promised Messiah.—Neh. 2:1; Luke 3:1.
It is important to know when the word went forth because it is the starting point for the countdown to the coming of the Messiah. Dates are involved and I do not know enough about Persia history to withstand a challenge in relation to dates. But I can structure data and bring clearly into view the facts stated in the Bible.

To that end I have constructed a website called OLAM2. This is an early view of it. More work will be done and more features added. But if this is a subject that interests you, I hope you will find this early view of the website useful. And no you can't log in yet and alter all the dates. But logins will be available at some point. Sorry the Bible loads slowly - I got to fix that but it's not going to happen immediately because there are some things I just don't know how to do yet.

Tadua, who some of you know, is giving attention to this and may eventually write up his views. He is especially good at dates and history.

I'm off to curl up in a small ball and recover from coding overload now.

OLAM2

Ezra 1:1-4
Marina

Orchid61
Posts: 678
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Command to Rebuild Jerusalem

#2 Post by Orchid61 » 2 weeks ago

Hi Marina,

I am very interested and I hope you took a good night sleep to restore your strenght.

Love Maria 🌷

Marina
Posts: 2676
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Command to Rebuild Jerusalem

#3 Post by Marina » 2 weeks ago

I understand the link to the olam2 website is going to blank DTT page? Hmm didn't do that in Preview.

So here is the link written out.

www.olam2.com

Hope you like it Maria. Yes I did sleep well thank you.
Marina

Orchid61
Posts: 678
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Command to Rebuild Jerusalem

#4 Post by Orchid61 » 2 weeks ago

Hi Marina,

That’s amazing 👍

Thank you for all your zealous work!

Love Maria🌷

Bobcat
Posts: 4115
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: Command to Rebuild Jerusalem

#5 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

Hi Marina,

I fixed the link in your post above. There were some formatting issues. Your site looks like it will be interesting when it gets set up good.


Regarding 'the going out of the word' (Dan 9:25) to begin the 7 + 62 weeks of years:

The WT Society's dating (455 BCE = 20th year of Artaxerxes; based on Neh 2:1-8) is wrong because the 20th year of Artaxerxes is, historically, 445 BCE. The WT uses 455 BCE because that is what works for their math. Their math works like this:
29 CE (when Jesus is baptized and anointed) - 62 weeks (62 x 7 = 434 years) - 7 weeks (7 x 7 = 49 years) = 455 BCE.

In a calculator this comes to 454 BCE, but we have to negate the zero year which doesn't exist. This makes the math equal 455 BCE as Artaxerxes 20th year. (It would actually be 454 + a fraction of a year on the start side.)

So the WT bends the history to make 455 BCE become Artaxerxes' 20th year. They do give an off-the-cuff explanation for 455 BCE that works for any who aren't interested in checking the facts themselves. And they use their unquestioned authority among the R&F JWs to make it work. This is why every non-JW historian would point out the clear falsehood of the WT's calculation. And every JW (except for the few 'mentally diseased apostates') remain quietly accepting of what the WT says. (It's the same with 607 BCE vs. 587 BCE.)

In other words, the WT just flat out makes up their own matching history. And then dares any JW to question it. If they do, their out. Out of house and home and family and friends, etc. I get some respite knowing that Rev 21:8 will eventually be fulfilled.


You mentioned the 1st year of Cyrus. And I pointed out the WT's start date above (455 BCE), which is based on Neh 2:1-8. But their is another possible workaround:
Ezra 7:1, 6, 7, 8 has Ezra arriving at Jerusalem in the 7th year of Artaxerxes. What follows in Ezra chapter 7 is the official letter/decree from the king. This 7th year is historically 458/457 BCE. The letter directs that Ezra is to do whatever he feels necessary in connection with the temple.

From this letter, one could also surmise that the city itself would need to be rebuilt in order to serve as the home for the temple.

On the plus side for this dating (458/457 BCE):
  • Constable's Notes points out regarding Ezra and Nehemiah:
    The walls of the city had lain in ruins since 586 B.C. At that time Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, breached them, entered Jerusalem, burned the temple, carried most of the remaining Jews off to Babylon, and knocked the walls down. Consequently the few Jews who remained could not defend themselves (2 Kings 25:1-11). The returned exiles had attempted to rebuild the walls in or shortly after 458 B.C., but that project failed because of local opposition (Ezra 4:12, 23).

    The returned exiles had received permission to return to their land and to reestablish their unique national institutions as much as possible. Therefore they needed to rebuild the city walls to defend themselves against anyone who might want to interfere with and to interrupt their way of life.

    The reason I quote this above is because one could argue that the prophecy in Dan 9:25 points out that the rebuilding of the walls would be done during a "troubled time." And thus, the whole history of Ezra and Nehemiah describes that entire process. Which could argue that the 458 BCE starting date helps one to see how that was fulfilled.
  • The book of Ezra/Nehemiah was one book in the Hebrew (for which see this post). And note how Ezra's and Nehemiah's return are in parallel positions in the chiasm in the link. This might argue that it was both of these men who were involved in the fulfillment of Dan 9:25. (Score one for the benefits of looking at Hebrew literary structure. :D )
  • 458 BCE + 7 + 62 weeks of years comes very close to 29 CE. And it should be noted that a number of scholars hold that Jesus was baptized in 26 CE, which would make the math (458 - 483 = 26 [remember, no zero year]) work quite nicely. But there is still some debate about the exact history of 26 vs 29 CE. (The main issue is when Herod the Great died. Most scholars are divided between 4 BCE and 1 BCE. See here for a Wikipedia article on the topic.
  • With the official government letter included in Ezra chap. 7, one could argue that if the Bible was trying to prove the dating and application of Dan 9:25, this is a clear way of doing it. The NAC-Daniel commentary (Stephen R. Miller, p. 263) points out regarding the command Nehemiah received in the 20th year of Artaxerxes:
    Actually, this does not seem to have been a formal decree but involved permission for Nehemiah to visit Palestine (Neh 2:5-8).

    Also note that Neh 2:3 has him (in 445 BCE) depressed because the city walls and gates are still in a ruined state. This sudden depression would seem odd if Nehemiah was talking about the city's destruction in 587 BCE. But it would make a lot more sense if he is depressed because efforts to rebuild the city walls had been ongoing since 458 BCE (or for the last 13 years) with little apparent progress.

    This view, although debatable, might explain why the official decree in Ezra 7 works better as an official starting date. And see again the link to the chiasm of Ezra/Nehemiah which places the return of both Ezra & Nehemiah in parallel, which could argue that it was the efforts of both that helped comprise the 49 years (7 weeks of years) portion of the prophecy.
  • Since the prophecy of Dan 9:25 breaks the time period into 7 + 62 (instead of just 69), one might argue that there is a little wiggle room regarding when the 7 ends and the 62 begins. In other words, it might suggest that there is something significant to the end of the 7 weeks, and before the 62 weeks begins counting. Or it might be argued that the prophecy itself intended to add a little ambiguous dating on purpose. The end of the 7 weeks (49 years, and starting from 458/57) takes us to 409/08 BCE. Regarding 409 BCE, the NAC-Daniel commentary (p. 266) again posits:
    Daniel separated the first sixty-nine sevens into two parts: seven sevens and sixty-two sevens. Evidently something significant was due to occur seven sevens (forty-nine years) after the sevens begin. If the decree was given in 458 BC, the date of this event would be 409 BC. Since the restoration of the city under Nehemiah and Ezra is specifically alluded to in the latter part of Dan 9:25, the completion of their rebuilding projects apparently marked the end of the first seven sevens or forty-nine years. In the Elephantine Papyri another man is stated to be governor of Judah in 407 BC, indicating that Nehemiah had passed from the scene by that time. (C.f. ANET, 491-92) Thus a date of 409 BC for the end of Nehemiah's work [and the seven sevens] is possible.

    409 BCE could also be 408 BCE if 458 is 457. So there is a small amount of play in the whole calculation. The issue of 26 CE vs. 29 CE would still exist though, leaving, again, some ambiguousness to the prophecy. A small amount, at any rate.

    Why, possibly, might God want some ambiguous dating about the Messiah? I'm just speculating, but one possibility is that the arrival of the Messiah would test the hearts of Israelites. (Mal 3:1-3; 4:5, 6; Lu 2:34-35) Having an exact and clear cut dating that could be proved beyond doubt might take away from allowing that to happen. The ambiguous dating, even though small, would leave any who wanted to reject the Messiah a reason that seemed plausible to themselves. (Compare Jn 7:50-52)

Anyways, when I started this post I wasn't intending to go into this amount of detail. But that is essentially where I am at regarding the dating of Dan 9:25. And I wanted to throw that out there in connection with your efforts.


Bobcat

Marina
Posts: 2676
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Command to Rebuild Jerusalem

#6 Post by Marina » 2 weeks ago

Hi Bobcat - thanks for sorting out the link.

Lot to take in re Ezra and Nehemiah. I'll have to read through what you have written several times.

My way of doing it is to lay it out as I have done here (nowhere near finished yet). If you click the links and scroll to the bottom of the page you'll see the scripture.

https://olam2.com/staff/timeline/sectio ... ptures.php

From previous research I think the key to the timing this lies in Ezra chapter 3. The central thing to Jehovah is the altar and Jesus Christ. Also notice the 2nd month and look at the Flood and the 2nd month. That 2nd month gives continuity, a marker, every year before and after the Flood.

(2 Chronicles 3:2-3) . . .Accordingly he started to build in the second month on the second [day], in the fourth year of his reign. 3 And these things Solomon laid as a foundation for building the house of the [true] God,. . .

https://olam2.com/staff/timeline/sectio ... ptures.php

So the Jews leave Babylon and they are back in Jerusalem. From the 1st day of the 7th month they are offering up burnt offerings but the foundations of the temple are not yet laid. Also they are holding the festival of booths in this 7th month. So the 7th month is Tishrei, which means the 2nd month is Ziv and there is no scriptural evidence that Ziv was ever the 8th month.

This is the kind of detail which ultimately gives answers. I haven't stepped through it all yet but the altar, the festivals, the Levites, all that is important to Jehovah is what gives you the answers. Darius, Cyrus and Artaxerxes are sort of but pushed out of the picture. They are not God's people. They are not that important and they are only being used to time anything because Judah and Israel behaved SO badly.
Marina

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