Baptism

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investigate
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Re: Baptism

#21 Post by investigate » 2 weeks ago

Small concordance of interesting scriptures that have bearing on the subject:
Mark 10:39
Acts 8:15, 16
Acts 10:47
1 Corinthians 12:13
Galatians 3:27, 28

There is one baptism, as identified at Ephesians 4:5. However, receiving the spirit, and being baptized in the name of Christ, are two separate things (Acts 8:15, 16). The "baptism" Paul referred to is being baptized into the body of Christ (Galatians 3:27, 28), which, incidentally, means that none of the JW great crowd can claim to have been baptized according to the NT. However, Paul did say in 1 Corinthians 12:13 that in one Spirit we were baptized into one body. Any thoughts on reconciling this? The only way I can think of now would be that baptizing *in the name* of the spirit is different than *receiving* the spirit.

Kerry Huish
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Re: Baptism

#22 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 weeks ago

investigate wrote: 2 weeks ago Paul did say in 1 Corinthians 12:13 that in one Spirit we were baptized into one body. Any thoughts on reconciling this? The only way I can think of now would be that baptizing *in the name* of the spirit is different than *receiving* the spirit.
Paul was not speaking to just any Tom, Dick or Harry.
Paul was specifically addressing spirit anointed Christians in Corinth who had been baptized in holy spirit.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Baptism

#23 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

I believe what Illusive fears, is that some churches have forgone water baptism altogether via the belief of "baptism of Holy Spirit". I think rest assured though, we all believe here that water baptism "is" a commandment, and we all practice this. Nobody here I believe thinks that we can skip the water immersion and just have the "spirit only" (which I know is one of Illusive's concerns).


I know Illusive, we've interacted a long time before he came to this forum, he's a friend, and we often discuss and debate scripture, that's how he came to know this forum :)


I believe that, Catholics insist that "water baptism" 'is' the baptism of spirit, due to being done by an ordained minister, who receives the power to "bless the water" which "infuses it" with Holy Spirt (akin to Holy Water and alike, if I am not mistaken).


I myself do not subscribe to this, but I do think there is reason to believe Holy Spirit comes down "upon us" during or after our water baptism, and therefore could be seen as one and the same "event" or "baptism".


I do think Kerry makes an interesting point about people being baptised in Jesus' name (implying they have been baptised as Christians), yet did not receive Holy Spirit, but was "given to them" by the Apostles, as they were granted the power of miracles (the use of the HS to accomplish amazing feats).

Of course, this "receiving of Holy Spirit", may not have been reference to a "baptism of HS/fire" at all, but rather, was just the "granting of spiritual gifts" perhaps, and perhaps indeed they had "received the one baptism" (which was of water and spirit simultaneously).


But for a certainly, John's baptism I feel, was not a Christian baptism, but a Jewish baptism, but he was making the way for Jesus nonetheless, and echoed the Christian baptism, which is why some people had to be "baptised again", into Jesus.


On the debate about "being baptised properly" one could reason, if they did not have a proper baptism as outlined by scripture, they may not have received the Spirit (as it would be a seal of God's approval of your baptism), however, one could also say, they have received it, because the person's "heart" was in the right place, in that they were being baptised into Jesus, for the repentance of their sins and salvation through Jesus' death, washing away the sinful man, and rising a new (aka being "born again"), and that one's "belief system" may change, but their baptism may remain valid, because it was a baptism of one's "personal faith in Jesus", though their understanding of Jesus may change over time, based on their Bible interpretations.

For example, I had a JW baptism, but I can swear that I felt I had an experience which I could only put down to Holy Spirit (and was not a mere emotional thing), thus, I feel that it is possible that God sees my baptism as valid, though I do still pray for an answer from God in specific ways, just in case it isn't, and that I'd need a fresh baptism (which I admit is a saddening though, as though I disagree with the JW teachings, my baptism is still a fond memory for many various reasons, but of course, I would still do what is needed if it was required of me by God).
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

investigate
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Re: Baptism

#24 Post by investigate » 2 weeks ago

Welcome anyway Ilusive -- having non WT background viewpoints will be interesting!

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Illusive
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Re: Baptism

#25 Post by Illusive » 2 weeks ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 2 weeks ago
I believe that, Catholics insist that "water baptism" 'is' the baptism of spirit, due to being done by an ordained minister, who receives the power to "bless the water" which "infuses it" with Holy Spirt (akin to Holy Water and alike, if I am not mistaken).
Nah. We don't think it's baptism of the spirit due to being done by an ordained Priest or Minister. Thats not what makes it valid. In theory, a valid baptism can be done by even an non-believer in an emergency as long as it's done in the correct form, that is, with water and in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as Christ commands it done.

Imagine that you were baptized and later found out that the baptism was performed on you by an evil person who really loves Satan or something. Does that make your baptism invalid? Certainly not because even though the man may perform a baptism on you, it is not really him that gives you the graces of the spirit through that baptism since baptism is a sacrament instituted by the Lord Jesus Christ. God bestows his grace on us through these things, but it is not because of a man, or whether a man has a certain title.

Everything else you said I think is correct, we cannot say that water baptism is separate from baptism of the Holy Spirit, because there is only one baptism for the remission of sins.
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Illusive
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Re: Baptism

#26 Post by Illusive » 2 weeks ago

investigate wrote: 2 weeks ago Welcome anyway Ilusive -- having non WT background viewpoints will be interesting!
I appreciate the warm welcome.
Latin Catholic. Professional Super-Villain. Founder of Cerberus. Follower of the Shepherd who is the savior of humanity. Dank meme enjoyer

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Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Baptism

#27 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago
Proselytiser of Jah wrote: 2 weeks ago
I believe that, Catholics insist that "water baptism" 'is' the baptism of spirit, due to being done by an ordained minister, who receives the power to "bless the water" which "infuses it" with Holy Spirt (akin to Holy Water and alike, if I am not mistaken).
Nah. We don't think it's baptism of the spirit due to being done by an ordained Priest or Minister. Thats not what makes it valid. In theory, a valid baptism can be done by even an non-believer...

Ahh yes, my mistake, I remember you saying.

But yeah, I thought it was something like that.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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