Baptism

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Illusive
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Re: Baptism

#11 Post by Illusive » 2 weeks ago

AmosAU wrote: 2 weeks ago Hi Illusive,

Welcome to the forum.

I do agree with your thoughts on baptism. It can be confusing for some in distingishing the difference between John's baptism and the baptism into the christian faith.
The system changed from the time of Pentecost. If one was baptised by John, then they would need to be baptised into Yeshua (Jesus) and received the HS at their baptism. Otherwise, they would possibly not receive the HS, until a second baptism.

Historically, baptism was an accepted procedure in the Jewish faith at the time, it wasn't unique to the the apostles, it was a centuries old ritual. We only need to read the gospels and Acts to see this.

Regards, Amos.

Excellent post friend. Spread light to others.

It is important to know the necessity of baptism for the sake of all Christians.
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AmosAU
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Re: Baptism

#12 Post by AmosAU » 2 weeks ago

Hi Illusive,

You might find that I think outside the box. I've done years of research into many things that most others have never heard of, or are to afraid to investigate for themselves.

I'm very interested to see what else you may bring to the forum.

Regards, Amos.

Kerry Huish
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Re: Baptism

#13 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 weeks ago

Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago I understand you may disagree, I am also certainly claiming that the idea originated from the Anabaptists, but there is an easy way to rebuke my claim. You can go and try to find a single 1st century Christian who wrote that there are multiple baptism as you suggested in your post. I do not believe you will find one, I say this because I have read their writings. But you should read them yourself and decide what you think.
Yes, I disagree.

Water baptism is a symbol of repentance.
A symbolic burying of the old person and a raising of a new.

In the first century there was just the one brand of Christianity. After the Apostles died many sects and offshoots of Christianity sprang up.

So it depends on what you have been taught but in some cases, a persons water baptism may be wrong or based on false teaching so a further repentance and rebaptism may be necessary.

For example...

If I was water baptised as a Protestant, then would I be accepted into the Catholic Church as a brother, even if I refused Catholic baptism?

Could I be water baptised as a Catholic and walk into the Mormon faith as a brother, even if I refused Mormon baptism?

Yes, the scriptures do say there is one faith, one Lord and one Baptism but we behold a world that has many Lords and many faiths and each faith offers their own brand of baptism.

Each faith views itself as being the one faith but this cannot be right...

If a person gets baptised when they were part of Babylon the Great, when they were on the broad and spacious road, then would they need to be baptised again as a symbol of repentance of what they practiced when part of Babylon the Great?

I am sure the honest hearted would feel a loathing over such things and as part of getting out of Babylon the Great would seek a rebaptism, a proper one.

Its a matter of maintaining a clean conscience.

However, with regards the spirit baptism, this is a one time event as it is from a true source.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

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Illusive
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Re: Baptism

#14 Post by Illusive » 2 weeks ago

Kerry Huish wrote: 2 weeks ago
Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago I understand you may disagree, I am also certainly claiming that the idea originated from the Anabaptists, but there is an easy way to rebuke my claim. You can go and try to find a single 1st century Christian who wrote that there are multiple baptism as you suggested in your post. I do not believe you will find one, I say this because I have read their writings. But you should read them yourself and decide what you think.

If I was water baptised as a Protestant, then would I be accepted into the Catholic Church as a brother, even if I refused Catholic baptism?

Could I be water baptised as a Catholic and walk into the Mormon faith as a brother, even if I refused Mormon baptism?

Forgive me I cannot reply to your whole post now as I must go and do something.

But to answer this question while I can, since I am Roman Catholic...

The Roman Catholic Church accepts the baptism of most Protestants as valid as long as it is done in the trinitarian form, which is in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as Christ commanded we baptize.in Matthew 28:19.

So you would not have to refuse Catholic baptism, because Catholics hold that people are can still be honest Christians even if they are not Catholic. It does mean that where we disagree with protestants we say Catholics are right and Protestants are wrong. But being wrong about some things doesn't mean you are not Christian.

Baptism is a universal Christian teaching and it has always been the ancient teaching that water baptism is the same as the holy spirit baptism, they are not different things. I'd implore you to read the ancient Church Fathers on this.

Most Protestants have valid baptism and are Christians.

Orthodox Christians also have valid baptism and are Christians.

Baptism, as long as it is done the way Christ commanded, is valid. Only someone who is in grave error would try to deny a valid baptism.
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Kerry Huish
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Re: Baptism

#15 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 weeks ago

Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago
Kerry Huish wrote: 2 weeks ago
Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago I understand you may disagree, I am also certainly claiming that the idea originated from the Anabaptists, but there is an easy way to rebuke my claim. You can go and try to find a single 1st century Christian who wrote that there are multiple baptism as you suggested in your post. I do not believe you will find one, I say this because I have read their writings. But you should read them yourself and decide what you think.

If I was water baptised as a Protestant, then would I be accepted into the Catholic Church as a brother, even if I refused Catholic baptism?

Could I be water baptised as a Catholic and walk into the Mormon faith as a brother, even if I refused Mormon baptism?

Forgive me I cannot reply to your whole post now as I must go and do something.

But to answer this question while I can, since I am Roman Catholic...

The Roman Catholic Church accepts the baptism of most Protestants as valid as long as it is done in the trinitarian form, which is in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as Christ commanded we baptize.in Matthew 28:19.

So you would not have to refuse Catholic baptism, because Catholics hold that people are can still be honest Christians even if they are not Catholic. It does mean that where we disagree with protestants we say Catholics are right and Protestants are wrong. But being wrong about some things doesn't mean you are not Christian.

Baptism is a universal Christian teaching and it has always been the ancient teaching that water baptism is the same as the holy spirit baptism, they are not different things. I'd implore you to read the ancient Church Fathers on this.

Most Protestants have valid baptism and are Christians.

Orthodox Christians also have valid baptism and are Christians.

Baptism, as long as it is done the way Christ commanded, is valid. Only someone who is in grave error would try to deny a valid baptism.
As this is why we see this so differently.
I reject the trinity teaching.
I see the trinity 'teaching' regarding the father, the son and the spirit as being a distortion of truth.
The teaching of the trinity came in AFTER the Apostles had died - it was something new. It was not something that the Apostles or Jesus taught.
The warnings regarding this deviation were clear.

Matthew 13:24 He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left.

Acts 20:29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness,

2 Timothy 4:3, 4 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.

2 Peter 2:1 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.

Back to Baptisms...

If I was baptized as a trinitarian and later came to view the trinity as being false then I would need to abandon the course I was on, repent and embrace new truths.
I would view the trinitarian baptism that I received as being a lie, a counterfeit.

This door swings both ways.

If I was baptized as a non-trinitarian and later came to view the trinity as being true then I would need to abandon the course I was on, repent and embrace new truths.
I would view the non-trinitarian baptism that I received as being a lie, a counterfeit.

Hence, in a genuine honest search for truth a person may need to reevaluate and in some cases even start again...

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

investigate
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Re: Baptism

#16 Post by investigate » 2 weeks ago

Apologies on reply Amos, no, I do not believe we all must be martyred, though a Christian should be willing to.

Was reading Acts 10, the holy spirit was poured out on the Gentiles before they were baptized. And yet in vs 47 they were afterwards baptized in water. With the Ethiopian eunuch, he was baptized in water after having the scriptures explained, with no reference to an outpouring. This seems to indicate that there actually are two events, as Kerry mentioned.

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Illusive
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Re: Baptism

#17 Post by Illusive » 2 weeks ago

Isn't it the case that despite not believing in the trinity the command to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit still is the case as per the command in Matthew 28:19?

Or am I not understanding something.
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investigate
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Re: Baptism

#18 Post by investigate » 2 weeks ago

Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago Isn't it the case that despite not believing in the trinity the command to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit still is the case as per the command in Matthew 28:19?

Or am I not understanding something.
Yes. Being baptized WITH holy sprit can’t be by any human though.

Also baptism can be figurative (Luke 12:50)

In all cases it seems to indicate a new purpose or creation

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Illusive
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Re: Baptism

#19 Post by Illusive » 2 weeks ago

investigate wrote: 2 weeks ago
Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago Isn't it the case that despite not believing in the trinity the command to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit still is the case as per the command in Matthew 28:19?

Or am I not understanding something.
Yes. Being baptized WITH holy sprit can’t be by any human though

Are you of the opinion then that water baptism has to be separate from holy spirit baptism because a human is performing the part where they are submerged or applying water?

Because Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize people in John 4:1-3 and we know their baptism was the same, one baptism that the Apostle Paul talks about in his letter to the Ephesians 4:5
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Kerry Huish
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Re: Baptism

#20 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 weeks ago

Illusive wrote: 2 weeks ago Isn't it the case that despite not believing in the trinity the command to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit still is the case as per the command in Matthew 28:19?

Or am I not understanding something.
Baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy spirit involves knowing fundamental truths regarding them, a base if you wish on which to build.
Jesus felt this was of upmost importance, hence the command.

If I believed the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were Isis, Osiris and Horus - would that matter?
If I believed the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit were all the same person - would that matter?
What about if I believed the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was Satan, Gog and Magog - would that matter?

John 4:23, 24...the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

Baptism is a start, a clean start if you will.
Better to get it right...

By following the pattern and traditions of what happened with Christianity AFTER the Apostles died is not a good start.

1 Timothy 4:1-3 However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron. They forbid marriage and command people to abstain from foods that God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.

Kind regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

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