Baptism

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investigate
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Baptism

#1 Post by investigate » 1 month ago

Just wanted to share something I looked into today. Nothing as deep or profound as something Bobcat might post, but here we go.

1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism is closely linked to Noah being in the ark, so baptism is indicated as being necessary for salvation (although others in the family could be saved, according to 1 Cor 7:14). And that the baptism saves us *through the resurrection of Jesus*.

There is, of course, only one baptism. (Eph 4:4, 5). There is not a baptism only of water, unless you were one of John's disciples.

Looked through Strong's concordance of βάπτισμα, and there isn't much to add, but there is an interesting passage at Romans 6:3-11. The 1984 Reference Bible even has a footnote from 1 Peter 3:21 back to here.

As the WT says as recently as 12/20, "The Corinthians needed to realize that being anointed Christians meant that they would face daily trials and die before they could be resurrected. Being “baptized into Christ Jesus” involved being “baptized into his death.” (Rom. 6:3) Their figurative baptism resulted in a course that would lead to their literal death and resurrection to heaven."

Of course Jesus was resurrected to Earth, then later taken up into heaven, he wasn't "resurrected to heaven". With their own words and footnotes the WT shows that those receiving only a water baptism, thus not being baptized into Jesus, would not qualify for salvation or be in the "ark".

AmosAU
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Re: Baptism

#2 Post by AmosAU » 1 month ago

Hi Investigate,

Good topic and thoughts. I've often visited the same thoughts myself.

If we consider the meaning of these verses, it may not demand that ALL must die to be included in Christs death. When we are baptized in his name, I believe this is when we are baptized into his death. (at our own baptizm) Otherwise it would make a mockery of Paul's other reasoning at;

1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

1Th 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

What say ye?

Regards, Amos.

Kerry Huish
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Re: Baptism

#3 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 month ago

Water baptism and a baptism in Holy Spirit are two very separate things.

Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

A person may undergo multiple water baptisms in their search for truth, even as some did in the first century: -

Acts 19:3-6 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Now regarding the baptism in a name of...
Depending on what you have been taught or believe then a rebaptism in water may be necessary.
For example, you may have once believed that Jesus and the Farther are the same person, praying to and worshipping Jesus as being the same or equal to the Father.
If your fundamental understanding changes and you see the Son and Father as distinctively separate and different to what you once believed when an initial dedication and water baptism was made then further repentance and rebaptism may be necessary in order to maintain a clean conscience.

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

But...
A baptism in Holy Spirit is a one time event.
It is this one Baptism - a baptism in Holy Spirit - that I believe Ephesians 4:5 is specifically referring to, not water baptism: -

Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

A proper water baptism is essential but so is a baptism of spirit.

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Marina
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Re: Baptism

#4 Post by Marina » 1 month ago

Tadua's writing on the subject of baptism.

Here's the link to the article he posted yesterday.

Christian Baptism In Whose Name - Part 3
Marina

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Illusive
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Re: Baptism

#5 Post by Illusive » 1 week ago

Kerry Huish wrote: 1 month ago Water baptism and a baptism in Holy Spirit are two very separate things.

Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

A person may undergo multiple water baptisms in their search for truth, even as some did in the first century: -

Acts 19:3-6 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Now regarding the baptism in a name of...
Depending on what you have been taught or believe then a rebaptism in water may be necessary.
For example, you may have once believed that Jesus and the Farther are the same person, praying to and worshipping Jesus as being the same or equal to the Father.
If your fundamental understanding changes and you see the Son and Father as distinctively separate and different to what you once believed when an initial dedication and water baptism was made then further repentance and rebaptism may be necessary in order to maintain a clean conscience.

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

But...
A baptism in Holy Spirit is a one time event.
It is this one Baptism - a baptism in Holy Spirit - that I believe Ephesians 4:5 is specifically referring to, not water baptism: -

Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

A proper water baptism is essential but so is a baptism of spirit.

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Kind Regards

Kerry

The idea that Water Baptism and Holy Spirit baptism are two separate things, is an idea that originated with the anabaptists roughly 500 years ago. It has never been the distance of the Apostles, or the students of the Apostles that they are separate things. You should look into the origins of the idea that water baptism is separate from the baptism of the Holy Spirit and you shall discover that they do not exist in the ancient teachings of the early Church of the 1st century, 2nd century, 3rd century, or any of those.

As for the idea that Johns baptism proves that there is a separation between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of water, this cannot be held to be the case. Johns baptism was ritual cleansing with water, a practice of ancient Judaism that has even been preserved today in so-called Orthodox Judaism. You can read about those in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and even Exodus if I'm not mistaken. But one must not make the mistake of believing that the ritual cleansing of John, is the same as the one baptism taught by Christ.

It is an error to say that the disciples that Saint Paul spoke to went under "multiple water baptism" in the sense that your post seems to suggest in search for the truth, since the baptism of John was merely a ritual washing.

In Ephesians 4:5, the Apostle Paul writes of course as you pointed out, that there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. There are not multiple baptisms, but one baptism. If you contend that the baptism of water is basically as good as Johns ritual cleansing this is an error because of what Christ says about the matter.

John 3:5

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit


Christ therefore states that both are necessary for salvation, if it were the case that only "Holy Spirit baptism" was necessary without the water, he would not have said that one needs to be born of water. But rather he says that unless you are born of water and the spirit you cannot be saved.

In the very next chapter John 4:1-2 it says Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples). We know that Christ did not baptize people with the ritual washing that St John the Baptist did. Because Christs baptism can be none other than the one baptism that is necessary for salvation, without which nobody can enter the Kingdom of God as he taught Nicodemus.




Furthermore, consider the case of Saint Philip in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles.

Acts 8:30-39

So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless some one guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the passage of the scripture which he was reading was this:

“As a sheep led to the slaughter
or a lamb before its shearer is dumb,
so he opens not his mouth.
In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken up from the earth.”

And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, pray, does the prophet say this, about himself or about some one else?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus. And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?” And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.


When asking about how to be baptized, the Eunuch from Ethiopia doesn't receive a response from the Apostle Phillip that he needs to receive the Holy Spirit baptism separate from the Water baptism. Apostle Philip rather regards them as one and the same, and we can presume with good conscience and trust that the Apostle Phillip baptized the eunuch with the one baptism that is talked about by the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 5:4



Looking forward to any response you or others may have, and any objections as well.
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Kerry Huish
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Re: Baptism

#6 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 week ago

.
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

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Re: Baptism

#7 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 week ago

Illusive wrote: 1 week ago The idea that Water Baptism and Holy Spirit baptism are two separate things, is an idea that originated with the anabaptists roughly 500 years ago. It has never been the distance of the Apostles, or the students of the Apostles that they are separate things. You should look into the origins of the idea that water baptism is separate from the baptism of the Holy Spirit and you shall discover that they do not exist in the ancient teachings of the early Church of the 1st century, 2nd century, 3rd century, or any of those.
Are you really saying that the Apostles and students of the Apostles in the first century did not know that water baptism and spirit baptism were two separate things and that both were necessary?

Matthew wrote this: -

Matthew 3:11 I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire.


Jesus told his Apostles this and they also experienced it: -

Acts 1:5 because John, indeed, baptized with water, but YOU will be baptized in holy spirit not many days after this.”

Seems Peter knew full well that water baptism and spirit baptism were seperate things:-

Acts 2:38 Peter [said] to them: “Repent, and let each one of YOU be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of YOUR sins, and YOU will receive the free gift of the holy spirit.

Case in point: -

Acts 8:14-17 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Sa·marʹi·a had accepted the word of God, they dispatched Peter and John to them; and these went down and prayed for them to get holy spirit.  For it had not yet fallen upon any one of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.  Then they went laying their hands upon them, and they began to receive holy spirit.

The teaching originated in the scriptures and the apostles and disciples knew it full well.

You also seem to be contradicting yourself.

You start off by saying that the idea that Water Baptism and Holy Spirit baptism are two separate things was a concept of the anabaptists that originated roughly 500 years ago. And was something that the original Apostles and disciples knew nothing about...

But then you go on to say: -
Illusive wrote: 1 week ago John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit


Christ therefore states that both are necessary for salvation, if it were the case that only "Holy Spirit baptism" was necessary without the water, he would not have said that one needs to be born of water. But rather he says that unless you are born of water and the spirit you cannot be saved.
You start off by implying that a separate water baptism and holy spirit baptism was not something that was taught in the 1st century, then by the end of your post you seem to be saying that Jesus taught it quite clearly?

You are saying that Jesus himself said BOTH are needed?

You do believe that the Apostles at least received both, how else could they sit with Jesus in the Kingdom?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Surely if the Apostles experienced both baptisms then they would know about it and be able to teach about it with authority?

Its quite puzzling how you have concluded that the Apostles themselves knew nothing of both water and spirit baptism...

It is truly bizarre..

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

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Re: Baptism

#8 Post by Illusive » 1 week ago

Kerry please forgive me, I am not sure if you have understood what I was stating to be the case. But if I have misunderstood you please inform me and I will correct my error. I never held or suggested the position that the Apostles were lacking in understanding of what baptism is. The Apostles of course, had the authority of God on earth by the grace of his majesty.

Likewise, I do not hold that they did not know what baptism of water and the holy spirit are. Rather, I am telling you that the Apostles knew of them, but regarded them as being one and the same. I am stating that Jesus taught that you must be baptized by water and the spirit, but he did not teach these as separate things, if there were two separate baptisms it would contradict what the Apostle Paul says in Ephesians 4:5 when he states there is only one baptism.


I am also certainly claiming that the early first century, second century, and third century Christians(also 4th, 5th and 6th) held to there only being one baptism and not multiple baptisms, and that baptism of water and the spirit are not separate things, but one and the same.

I understand you may disagree, I am also certainly claiming that the idea originated from the Anabaptists, but there is an easy way to rebuke my claim. You can go and try to find a single 1st century Christian who wrote that there are multiple baptism as you suggested in your post. I do not believe you will find one, I say this because I have read their writings. But you should read them yourself and decide what you think.
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Re: Baptism

#9 Post by Illusive » 1 week ago

Also check out this Baptismal Font. I am sharing because I think it looks cool.

Image
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AmosAU
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Re: Baptism

#10 Post by AmosAU » 1 week ago

Hi Illusive,

Welcome to the forum.

I do agree with your thoughts on baptism. It can be confusing for some in distingishing the difference between John's baptism and the baptism into the christian faith.
The system changed from the time of Pentecost. If one was baptised by John, then they would need to be baptised into Yeshua (Jesus) and received the HS at their baptism. Otherwise, they would possibly not receive the HS, until a second baptism.

Historically, baptism was an accepted procedure in the Jewish faith at the time, it wasn't unique to the the apostles, it was a centuries old ritual. We only need to read the gospels and Acts to see this.

Regards, Amos.

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