Why do we 'drink' the wine and not 'pour' it? (Lord's Supper)

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Proselytiser of Jah
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Why do we 'drink' the wine and not 'pour' it? (Lord's Supper)

#1 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 1 month ago

So, this is something that's been on my mind, a small curiosity.

In the Old Testament we know sacrifices were offered up to Yehovah for sins. The priests would then eat the meat of these sacrifices but would pour the blood on the ground because the "life" was in the blood and was sacred (also assumingly for health reasons on part of God's instructions). Leviticus 6:26

So, seeing that the blood was poured out and the body eaten only, and the lamb of sacrifice foreshadows Jesus, why are we commanded to eat the body (bread) 'and' drink the blood (wine)? I would have thought that he would have said "eat this it is my body, and pour the wine on the ground for it is my blood which is a sin offering", assuming that the eating of the Lord's supper is meant to be symbolic of "eating the sin offering" like the priests did? Unless I'm drawing false lines and the eating of the Lord's supper isn't meant to be connected with the physical eating of the sin offering? As I realise this is mainly in "remembrance" of him (1 Corinthians 11:25).

Not that I'm saying it's wrong, for Jesus commanded it, and on this I can only refer to John 6:52-59,68

So this is just a curiosity on my part, or perhaps trying to find deeper meaning and reason behind this.

Perhaps possibly because the "life is in the blood" that consuming the animal blood (of which was an imperfect sacrifice) wouldn't have been right as it "binds one's life with the animal's" as it were? Whereas drinking Jesus' "blood" represents putting "his life" "in us"? Which is everlasting life? Which is why it's not poured on the ground in this case?
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

Bobcat
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Re: Why do we 'drink' the wine and not 'pour' it? (Lord's Supper)

#2 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

In this web article it explains a little about the history (past and modern) of wine making in Israel. But in the second paragraph there is a link to another article (of Jewish viewpoint) that discusses why there are four cups of wine in the Passover celebration.

The cups of wine were not part of the original Passover. At least there is no mention of such in the Exodus instructions. (Ex 12:1-20) Although, it is probably safe to say that the Israelites most likely had wine at their dinners, as such a thing was more common where fresh water might be more difficult to have on hand. The thought of drinking Jesus' blood was employed by Jesus earlier in his ministry. (John chapter 6; Incidentally, Jn 6:4 places the chapter near to a Passover. The NWT's gospel parallel appendix [A7-D] places Jn chap. 6 near the Passover of 32 CE.) So that, at the last supper the disciples would have already been 'primed' (if you will) for the concept of drinking the wine which Jesus compared with "the blood of the covenant." (Incidentally, the blood inaugurating a covenant would have been splashed on the persons involved. See Ex 24:4-8.)

So from that, the point I was alluding to was that drinking wine at the Passover was not directly linked with blood sacrifices. It would appear that Jesus used what had become custom at the Passover and adapted it to the New Covenant and the shared experience of his disciples.

Having said all that, I am also looking forward to any other thoughts others might have on this topic.

For cross-reference purposes, this post and thread are cross-linked to here.


Bobcat

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Why do we 'drink' the wine and not 'pour' it? (Lord's Supper)

#3 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote:
1 month ago
So, this is something that's been on my mind, a small curiosity.

In the Old Testament we know sacrifices were offered up to Yehovah for sins. The priests would then eat the meat of these sacrifices but would pour the blood on the ground because the "life" was in the blood and was sacred (also assumingly for health reasons on part of God's instructions). Leviticus 6:26

So, seeing that the blood was poured out and the body eaten only, and the lamb of sacrifice foreshadows Jesus, why are we commanded to eat the body (bread) 'and' drink the blood (wine)? I would have thought that he would have said "eat this it is my body, and pour the wine on the ground for it is my blood which is a sin offering", assuming that the eating of the Lord's supper is meant to be symbolic of "eating the sin offering" like the priests did? Unless I'm drawing false lines and the eating of the Lord's supper isn't meant to be connected with the physical eating of the sin offering? As I realise this is mainly in "remembrance" of him (1 Corinthians 11:25).

Not that I'm saying it's wrong, for Jesus commanded it, and on this I can only refer to John 6:52-59,68

So this is just a curiosity on my part, or perhaps trying to find deeper meaning and reason behind this.

Perhaps possibly because the "life is in the blood" that consuming the animal blood (of which was an imperfect sacrifice) wouldn't have been right as it "binds one's life with the animal's" as it were? Whereas drinking Jesus' "blood" represents putting "his life" "in us"? Which is everlasting life? Which is why it's not poured on the ground in this case?
Hello Proselytiser.

It has to do with Jesus always referring to himself as the Son of man. He never referred to himself as the Messiah/Christ see the discussion, Why did Jesus refer to himself as the Son of Man, here

If you read Jhn 6:1-63 in context, you will see that after he had fed the 5,000 men as well as women and children with 5 loaves and two fishes, this great crowd was determined to make him the King but he withdrew from them. Satan had already offered him the kingdoms of the world and he had refused him. And he had also sternly warned his disciples not to call him the Christ/Messiah, (Mt 16:20), because for him to acknowledge himself as being the Messiah would have pre-empted the heavenly court of Dan 7:13,14, and he could not do this.

The next day when the great crowd, (Jhn 6:10), found him. Jesus castigated them saying ..."Most truly I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs, but because you ate from the loaves and were satisfied. Work not for the food that perishes, but for the food that remains for life everlasting... (Jhn 6:22-27, 63). In other words, they were to do their utmost to grasp the meaning of God's words, the true bread from heaven.

Then he says something odd that they also did not understand. Referring to this true bread from heaven he says: ...for upon this one, [Jesus as the giver of the true bread from heaven], God has put a seal of approval.. Seals, in scripture, are used to seal up, to keep secret, as at Rev 6:1-12, these seals were opened when the sacred secret was about to be revealed ...but in the days of the seventh angel, when he is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish, (Rev 10:7)

So what had Jesus meant when he had said to that crowd for upon this one God has put his seal of approval, (Jhn 6:27 b). To understand its meaning, we have to dig deep and fully comprehend the irony of what he said next.

Jews had a deep-seated aversion to eating flesh with its blood. And yet Jesus told them ...I am the bread of life ... Most truly I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in yourselves, (Jhn 6:14-53). He was deliberately goading them and they figuratively shut their ears and turned away in disgust much like the Jews of Mt 13:15 did. He then asked the twelve ..."Does this stumble you?... For he knew from the beginning who were the ones not believing, (Jhn 6:61-64).

Jesus had deliberately embedded the idea of eating his flesh and drinking his blood into the minds of his disciples, where in reality, as he himself said, the flesh is of no use at all, the sayings I have spoken are spirit and are life, (Jhn 6:63).

So what was it about Jesus the Father had sealed/made secret, (Jhn 6:27)?

At Mt 1:23 Jehovah's angel told Joseph that the child would be called Immanuel, (Mt 1:23). Immanuel occurs in only two other places in scripture ...Therefore Jehovah himself will give you men a sign: Look! The maiden will actually become pregnant and she is giving birth to a son and she will certainly call his name Immanuel.
And at Isa 7:14 it says: ...Butter and honey he will eat by the time that he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good. And He will actually flood and pass over ... to fill the breadth of your land/earth O Immanuel ... and he must become a sacred place, and a stone to strike against, and as a rock over which to stumble to both houses of Israel, [Jews and spiritual Jews].

And Isaiah said concerning him ...Wrap up the attestation, put a seal upon the law and the prophets among my disciples/taught ones!, (Isa 8:8,14).


Jesus carried out his role as a stone for stumbling to perfection. When John the Baptist who believed him to be the Messiah sent his messenger to him, he asked: "Are you the coming one, or are we to expect a different one? He was puzzled by his behaviour, i.e. his eating with drunkards and tax collectors, (Mt 9:11). Jesus told him ... The blind are seeing again, and the lame are walking about, and the lepers are being cleansed, the deaf are hearing and the dead are being raised up and the poor are having the good news declared to them, ...happy is he that finds no cause for stumbling in me, (Mt 11:2-5).

He was well aware of what had stumbled him, but the role he had been sent to play was to be a stumbling block to both houses of Israel.
LRW~

Marina
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Re: Why do we 'drink' the wine and not 'pour' it? (Lord's Supper)

#4 Post by Marina » 1 month ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
1 month ago
So what was it about Jesus the Father had sealed/made secret, (Jhn 6:27)?

At Mt 1:23 Jehovah's angel told Joseph that the child would be called Immanuel, (Mt 1:23). Immanuel occurs in only two other places in scripture ...Therefore Jehovah himself will give you men a sign: Look! The maiden will actually become pregnant and she is giving birth to a son and she will certainly call his name Immanuel.
And at Isa 7:14 it says: ...Butter and honey he will eat by the time that he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good. And He will actually flood and pass over ... to fill the breadth of your land/earth O Immanuel ... and he must become a sacred place, and a stone to strike against, and as a rock over which to stumble to both houses of Israel, [Jews and spiritual Jews].

And Isaiah said concerning him ...Wrap up the attestation, put a seal upon the law and the prophets among my disciples/taught ones!, (Isa 8:8,14).


Jesus carried out his role as a stone for stumbling to perfection.
Hi CI - interesting that you use this scripture in Isaiah. Before I was thrown out for saying the 3rd year of Jehoiakim's reign really and truly was the 3rd year of Jehoiakim's reign (Dan 1:1), I went to see the elder to whom I was closest. I wanted to see if there was any help left for me in WT. He said to me "you cannot be sure that it really was Jehoiakim's 3rd year of rulership." I replied, "I am sure." That stunned him and for a split second he was at a loss. Then he said what he probably did not want to say (because it gave his game away). "Then you are irrational," he said. "You cannot know because of the years of..."and he said the name of a king beginning with J. He said the wrong one, I think he said Jehoahaz and maybe meant Jehoash.

Now without going into detail, what he was referring to was irrelevant to the 3rd year of Jehoiakim/1914 issue I was speaking to him about. But I knew what he was talking about - there is a part in the Bible where you are trying to work out the length of a king's rulership and it is impossible. That does affect the timeline from Adam to Hezekiah. And it is only a few years. But if you are trying to count exactly from Adam to Jesus, then the matter becomes important.

I haven't tested it yet but I think the answer lies with those words "BY THE TIME he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good." If so what a very carefully locked up secret from the first to the last Adam.

(1 Corinthians 15:45) . . .“The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. . .
Marina

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Why do we 'drink' the wine and not 'pour' it? (Lord's Supper)

#5 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 month ago

Marina wrote:
1 month ago
coccus ilicis wrote:
1 month ago
So what was it about Jesus the Father had sealed/made secret, (Jhn 6:27)?

At Mt 1:23 Jehovah's angel told Joseph that the child would be called Immanuel, (Mt 1:23). Immanuel occurs in only two other places in scripture ...Therefore Jehovah himself will give you men a sign: Look! The maiden will actually become pregnant and she is giving birth to a son and she will certainly call his name Immanuel.
And at Isa 7:14 it says: ...Butter and honey he will eat by the time that he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good. And He will actually flood and pass over ... to fill the breadth of your land/earth O Immanuel ... and he must become a sacred place, and a stone to strike against, and as a rock over which to stumble to both houses of Israel, [Jews and spiritual Jews].

And Isaiah said concerning him ...Wrap up the attestation, put a seal upon the law and the prophets among my disciples/taught ones!, (Isa 8:8,14).


Jesus carried out his role as a stone for stumbling to perfection.
Hi CI - interesting that you use this scripture in Isaiah. Before I was thrown out for saying the 3rd year of Jehoiakim's reign really and truly was the 3rd year of Jehoiakim's reign (Dan 1:1), I went to see the elder to whom I was closest. I wanted to see if there was any help left for me in WT. He said to me "you cannot be sure that it really was Jehoiakim's 3rd year of rulership." I replied, "I am sure." That stunned him and for a split second he was at a loss. Then he said what he probably did not want to say (because it gave his game away). "Then you are irrational," he said. "You cannot know because of the years of..."and he said the name of a king beginning with J. He said the wrong one, I think he said Jehoahaz and maybe meant Jehoash.

Now without going into detail, what he was referring to was irrelevant to the 3rd year of Jehoiakim/1914 issue I was speaking to him about. But I knew what he was talking about - there is a part in the Bible where you are trying to work out the length of a king's rulership and it is impossible. That does affect the timeline from Adam to Hezekiah. And it is only a few years. But if you are trying to count exactly from Adam to Jesus, then the matter becomes important.

I haven't tested it yet but I think the answer lies with those words "BY THE TIME he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good." If so what a very carefully locked up secret from the first to the last Adam.

(1 Corinthians 15:45) . . .“The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. . .
Yes, one can tell from the Aid book that Br. Franz and co. worked hard to try and make the narrative conform to the WT Soc. dictates.

But from Jehovah's viewpoint, it's always been about sorting the wheat from the chaff. That is why he put the tree of knowledge of good and bad in the garden of Eden. That's why he allowed the serpent to tempt Eve. That's why he didn't destroy the Levites who instigated making an image of Hathor, but is biding his time until the 8th beast has dashed the power of the holy ones to pieces. He gives everyone enough rope to hang themselves with, if that's what they want to do.

He's been ahead of the play all along. And it's not until the 1000 yr. rule is at an end that the serpent the Devil is finally destroyed, thrown into the lake of fire where both the wild beast and the false prophet already are, (Rev 20:10).
LRW~

Marina
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Re: Why do we 'drink' the wine and not 'pour' it? (Lord's Supper)

#6 Post by Marina » 1 month ago

coccus ilicis wrote:
1 month ago
But from Jehovah's viewpoint, it's always been about sorting the wheat from the chaff. That is why he put the tree of knowledge of good and bad in the garden of Eden. That's why he allowed the serpent to tempt Eve. That's why he didn't destroy the Levites who instigated making an image of Hathor, but is biding his time until the 8th beast has dashed the power of the holy ones to pieces. He gives everyone enough rope to hang themselves with, if that's what they want to do.
Yes and it is about freedom because the way God has done everything is the exact opposite of brain washing. He is making you search for him. The mind has got to work, it has got to draw information through, think about it (or process it/calculate). The person must think for themselves and draw their own conclusions. Then they make a decision based on what they think. Not what someone else has told them to think.

(Matthew 23:8-11) . . .But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers.

(John 8:31-32) . . .“If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.. . .
Marina

QuestionsFromReaders
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Re: Why do we 'drink' the wine and not 'pour' it? (Lord's Supper)

#7 Post by QuestionsFromReaders » 4 days ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote:
1 month ago
So, this is something that's been on my mind, a small curiosity.

In the Old Testament we know sacrifices were offered up to Yehovah for sins. The priests would then eat the meat of these sacrifices but would pour the blood on the ground because the "life" was in the blood and was sacred (also assumingly for health reasons on part of God's instructions). Leviticus 6:26

So, seeing that the blood was poured out and the body eaten only, and the lamb of sacrifice foreshadows Jesus, why are we commanded to eat the body (bread) 'and' drink the blood (wine)? I would have thought that he would have said "eat this it is my body, and pour the wine on the ground for it is my blood which is a sin offering", assuming that the eating of the Lord's supper is meant to be symbolic of "eating the sin offering" like the priests did? Unless I'm drawing false lines and the eating of the Lord's supper isn't meant to be connected with the physical eating of the sin offering? As I realise this is mainly in "remembrance" of him (1 Corinthians 11:25).

Not that I'm saying it's wrong, for Jesus commanded it, and on this I can only refer to John 6:52-59,68

So this is just a curiosity on my part, or perhaps trying to find deeper meaning and reason behind this.

Perhaps possibly because the "life is in the blood" that consuming the animal blood (of which was an imperfect sacrifice) wouldn't have been right as it "binds one's life with the animal's" as it were? Whereas drinking Jesus' "blood" represents putting "his life" "in us"? Which is everlasting life? Which is why it's not poured on the ground in this case?

Was the Passover Lamb a sin offering?

Who were saved by the Passover Lamb's blood splashed on the doorway?

Who is the door through which the sheep enter and then exist to the Promised Land?

Is there a correspondence to the group saved at Passover to Christians then and today?

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Why do we 'drink' the wine and not 'pour' it? (Lord's Supper)

#8 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 4 days ago

QuestionsFromReaders wrote:
4 days ago

Was the Passover Lamb a sin offering?

Who were saved by the Passover Lamb's blood splashed on the doorway?

Who is the door through which the sheep enter and then exist to the Promised Land?

Is there a correspondence to the group saved at Passover to Christians then and today?

Well Jesus is called the lamb of God, and his death is commemorated on the same event as Jewish passover, right? So it stands to reason that there is a connection of some kind there. I assumed the lamb represented a sacrifice.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

Kerry Huish
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Re: Why do we 'drink' the wine and not 'pour' it? (Lord's Supper)

#9 Post by Kerry Huish » 4 days ago

The Lord's evening meal is a communion meal.
In a communion meal the worshipper partakes of the offering.
This is why we eat the bread and drink the wine - it is a communion meal.

If you reject a communion meal after it has been provided for you then you are also rejecting peace with God and showing contempt for His set table.
Peace with God is obtained by the sin offering and whole burnt offering that precedes a communion meal. Faith in said offerings is what gives peace.
After peace is obtained then a worshipper partakes in a communion meal.

Revelation 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

To reject the meal is bad, but to partake of the meal unworthily is likewise bad.
To eat - when you have no peace - is to show contempt for the communion.

1 Corinthians 11:27-31 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

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Re: Why do we 'drink' the wine and not 'pour' it? (Lord's Supper)

#10 Post by AmosAU » 4 days ago

For what it's worth;

I believe the original Passover in Egypt consisted of their evening meal, in a prepared state to escape.

The last supper was also a proper meal and finished with the institution of a new kingdom covenant.

Luk 22:14 And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him.
Luk 22:15 And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
Luk 22:16 For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
Luk 22:17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, "Take this, and divide it among yourselves.
Luk 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
Luk 22:21 But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table.
Luk 22:22 For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"
Luk 22:23 And they began to question one another, which of them it could be who was going to do this.

Luk 22:24 A dispute also arose among them, as to which of them was to be regarded as the greatest.
Luk 22:25 And he said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those in authority over them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves.
Luk 22:27 For who is the greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves.
Luk 22:28 "You are those who have stayed with me in my trials,
Luk 22:29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom,
Luk 22:30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


In my belief, the WTS version of their memorial has almost no likeness to the last supp-er, as quote above.

Regards, Amos.

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