Daniel 12:2. Michael the Archagel and the Resurrection. How, when and why?

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Strazh
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Daniel 12:2. Michael the Archagel and the Resurrection. How, when and why?

#1 Post by Strazh » 2 weeks ago

Hi :)

Daniel's prophecy about the end of the last king of the north ends with a completely unexpected moment - the resurrection of the dead:

...And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people... And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt. (Daniel 11:44-12:2; DBY)

In the days of Jesus, He directly hinted to his contemporaries that they did not understand Daniel's prophecy (Matthew 24:15). Perhaps Jesus' contemporaries believed in their spiritual resurrection in the same way that Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the invisible presence of Christ.

Although the doctrine of the resurrection refers to the beginnings of the teaching of Christ, the most interesting point in this prophecy is the mention of Michael the Archangel in the context of the resurrection. There is nothing in the local context that could explain his role to us. The history of the Maccabees and even the history of the first century also gives nothing to understand how the dead could rise in those days - 'some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt'? It seems to me that no one has risen to everlasting life. No one but Jesus. Interestingly, the angel says about the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. It seems Jesus Christ repeated this prophecy:

...an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall go forth; those that have practised good, to resurrection of life, and those that have done evil, to resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28,29, DBY)

Jesus added that the dead would rise at the sound of His voice. Also the Apostle Paul writes that the dead rise at the sound of the voice of archangel:

for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. (1 Thessalonians 4:16, DBY)

Daniel also writes that (archangel) Michael is present at the resurrection (see above Daniel 12:1,2).

Perhaps it is difficult for English-speaking readers to understand why Paul does not use the defined articles for the Greek words-tituls god and archangel. This is a topic for another conversation. If this prophecy refers to a global context, everything is clear. But if this prophecy has nothing to do with the global context, let's go back to the local context and try to understand:

Нow did the resurrection predicted by Daniel? How and when?
Why is Michael the Archangel mentioned specifically in the context of the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous?
I don't speak English, so sorry for the mistakes and style.

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Daniel 12:2. Michael the Archagel and the Resurrection. How, when and why?

#2 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

I know some believe Micheal to be Jesus, and this is not unique to JWs. John Calvin (one of the reformation leaders) and several others thought this. However, they did not link Michael in Daniel to the Archangel, they thought Jesus/Michael and Archangel Michael were two different things.

Whilst others (like the JWs) think they are all the same thing. And others think Michael merely acts on behalf of Jesus through "proxy" (in the same way non-trinitarians read the scriptures in regards to some of the shared titles between God and Jesus).

So it's all very much in the air on just what the real meaning is. Maybe that's why the early Christians did get it either.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

Bobcat
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Re: Daniel 12:2. Michael the Archagel and the Resurrection. How, when and why?

#3 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

Regarding the basis for a Christian era 'waking up from the dust of the ground' (Dan 12:2), see note # 1 in this post.

I put it there because it is related and useful to my thread. It's apparent to me that Dan 11:36-12:12 has both a fulfillment involving the first century, and a greater one at the end of the age (or "system of things").


Bobcat

Strazh
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Re: Daniel 12:2. Michael the Archagel and the Resurrection. How, when and why?

#4 Post by Strazh » 2 weeks ago

Proselytiser of Jah wrote:
2 weeks ago
I know some believe Micheal to be Jesus, and this is not unique to JWs. John Calvin (one of the reformation leaders) and several others thought this. However, they did not link Michael in Daniel to the Archangel, they thought Jesus/Michael and Archangel Michael were two different things.

Whilst others (like the JWs) think they are all the same thing. And others think Michael merely acts on behalf of Jesus through "proxy" (in the same way non-trinitarians read the scriptures in regards to some of the shared titles between God and Jesus).

So it's all very much in the air on just what the real meaning is. Maybe that's why the early Christians did get it either.
Hi PoJ.

Jehovah's Witnesses really believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael. But they do not accept the explanation given above, although it is the most complete and logical. This explanation will destroy their chronology of 1914, because the role of the archangel in the resurrection is part of the system-forming biblical teaching "The Gentile Times are THE TIME OF THE END!" (the time of completion of this system of things).

Earlier I reasoned that the Archangel Michael was one of the three Angels who appeared to Daniel in his last vision. He had helped the angel sent to Daniel before. It seems in Daniel's last vision, Michael stood in the middle of the river and was absolutely similar to Jesus Christ, who appeared to John in the book of the Apocalypse. Unfortunately, this my article was in Russian, and I don't have the strength to translate it into English.
I don't speak English, so sorry for the mistakes and style.

Strazh
Posts: 51
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Re: Daniel 12:2. Michael the Archagel and the Resurrection. How, when and why?

#5 Post by Strazh » 2 weeks ago

Bobcat wrote:
2 weeks ago
Regarding the basis for a Christian era 'waking up from the dust of the ground' (Dan 12:2), see note # 1 in this post.

I put it there because it is related and useful to my thread. It's apparent to me that Dan 11:36-12:12 has both a fulfillment involving the first century, and a greater one at the end of the age (or "system of things").

Bobcat
Thank you, Bobcat. Excellent research. It seems that all sincere researchers follow almost parallel paths. This research remains only to add the role of the Archangel Michael in the resurrection and explain more clearly how those who were allegedly resurrected (in the first century to shame and eternal contempt) died and ended up in tombs earlier. It is unclear why they were resurrected for judgment in the first century, if there is another resurrection of judgment is ahead. It is quite possible that Daniel 12:1,2 does not refer to the first century at all, as well as a some of other things of the context.

Truly, the words of Daniel 12:4(b) must come true even today :)
I don't speak English, so sorry for the mistakes and style.

Bobcat
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Re: Daniel 12:2. Michael the Archagel and the Resurrection. How, when and why?

#6 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

Try thinking of the good news throughout the Christian era like the parable of the dragnet describes. It scoops up people of all sorts who get sorted afterwards. People are affected by how they respond to the good news, even in this life.

For some, their positive response to the good news ends up with them attaining everlasting life. (Jn 5:24, 25) For some, their bad response results in "shame and everlasting contempt." Either way, the end result is not right away, not in this life. (Compare Heb 9:27) But those are the only two end results. Eventually, exposure to the good news results in one of the two results described in Dan 12:2. For some, the end result has to wait until Rev 20:7-10. For others, the end result comes before that time.

There are many people throughout history who never came in contact with the good news. They also will have that opportunity during the millennium. (Rom 2:14-16; Jn 12:47-48)

(Incidentally, "those who practice good things ... those who practiced vile things" in Jn 5:29 is a rhetorical device known as a merism. I have a definition link for that in this post. And regarding a recent change in the WT's understanding of Jn 5:29, see this post.)

On the subject of "Michael, the great prince who watches over your people" (Dan 12:1): In both a first century fulfillment of Dan 12:1, wherein it would be Christians who were the ones who "escaped," and/or in an end of age fulfillment, wherein, again, it would be Christians who would be the ones 'escaping,' there is only one person who fits that description: Mt 28:20. And as far as we know, he only received the name "Jesus" starting in the first century. Others in the Scriptures received name changes as their roles changed (e.g. Abraham, Sarah, Eve).

Rev 12:5 avoids naming the "child" that gets caught away to God's throne. If it had named him Jesus, that would have created a contextual separation between Jesus and Michael in Rev 12:7. Leaving the "child" unnamed allows for identifying "Michael" with who we now know as "Jesus."

That the "child" is Jesus and not the 144,000 or "the kingdom" (as the WT interprets) can be seen in that the woman and her seed go on to being persecuted following the child's being caught away to God's throne.

(On the other hand, for "the kingdom" to be caught away to God's throne is a rather absurd idea. But I guess that's the best the WT can do and hold onto it's 1914 nonsense.)


Bobcat

johnamos2.0
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Re: Daniel 12:2. Michael the Archagel and the Resurrection. How, when and why?

#7 Post by johnamos2.0 » 2 weeks ago

Truly, the words of Daniel 12:4(b) must come true even today :)
[Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.”]
So true. And to add to that it is said that there will be those that have insight among the people that they will impart understanding to many.

[32 “And those who are acting wickedly against the covenant,+ he will lead into apostasy+ by means of smooth words.+ But as regards the people who are knowing their God,+ they will prevail+ and act effectively. 33 And as regards those having insight+ among the people, they will impart understanding to the many.+ And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering,+ for many days.]

That 'apostasy' spoken of there is the 'apostasy' that Paul said had to come first before Jesus would come. And the 'he' there that would lead those into the 'apostasy' is speaking of the 'KOTN' here, but Paul refers to him as the 'MOL'. The being made to stumble for many days by those means is the 'time of great distress' that will occur.

[However, brothers, respecting the coming+ of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,...Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy+ comes first and the man of lawlessness+ gets revealed,]

[36 “And the king (KOTN) will actually do according to his own will, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak marvelous things.]

[4 He (MOL) is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god]

[31 ... “And they (the arms) will certainly put in place the disgusting thing (KOTN) that is causing desolation.]

[“Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing (KOTN) that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place,]
____________________

[24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]

[it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]

[Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’]

[the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword.’]

[19 “To you, O Jehovah, I shall call; for fire itself has devoured the pasture grounds of the wilderness, and a very flame has consumed all the trees of the field.]

[Is it to do much plundering that you have congregated your congregation, in order to carry off silver and gold, to take wealth and property, to get a very great spoil?”’]

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Daniel 12:2. Michael the Archagel and the Resurrection. How, when and why?

#8 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

Strazh wrote:
2 weeks ago
. Unfortunately, this my article was in Russian, and I don't have the strength to translate it into English.
I can help with that....

https://strazh-org-ua.translate.goog/mi ... tr_pto=nui

Now all you have to do is copy and paste (and maybe check for minor errors as translators are not always perfect, but so far it looks good to me :) ).
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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coccus ilicis
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Re: Daniel 12:2. Michael the Archagel and the Resurrection. How, when and why?

#9 Post by coccus ilicis » 1 week ago

Strazh wrote:
2 weeks ago
Hi :)

Daniel's prophecy about the last king of the north ends with a completely unexpected moment - the resurrection of the dead:

...And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people... And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt. (Daniel 11:44-12:2; DBY)

In the days of Jesus, He directly hinted to his contemporaries that they did not understand Daniel's prophecy (Matthew 24:15). Perhaps Jesus' contemporaries believed in their spiritual resurrection in the same way that Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the invisible presence of Christ.

Although the doctrine of the resurrection refers to the beginnings of the teaching of Christ, the most interesting point in this prophecy is the mention of Michael the Archangel in the context of the resurrection. There is nothing in the local context that could explain his role to us. The history of the Maccabees and even the history of the first century also gives nothing to understand how the dead could rise in those days - 'some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt'? It seems to me that no one has risen to everlasting life. No one but Jesus. Interestingly, the angel says about the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. It seems Jesus Christ repeated this prophecy:

...an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall go forth; those that have practised good, to resurrection of life, and those that have done evil, to resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28,29, DBY)

Jesus added that the dead would rise at the sound of His voice. Also the Apostle Paul writes that the dead rise at the sound of the voice of archangel:

for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. (1 Thessalonians 4:16, DBY)

Daniel also writes that (archangel) Michael is present at the resurrection (see above Daniel 12:1,2).

Perhaps it is difficult for English-speaking readers to understand why Paul does not use the defined articles for the Greek words-titles god and archangel. This is a topic for another conversation. If this prophecy refers to a global context, everything is clear. But if this prophecy has nothing to do with the global context, let's go back to the local context and try to understand:

When did the resurrection foretold by Daniel occur?
Why is Michael the Archangel mentioned specifically in the context of the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous?
Hello Strazh

Good questions.
Here is the entry from helps word-studies:
Jesus said: For just as the Father has life in himself he also granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of Man he is,(Jhn 5:26,27). He said: "I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative, for just as I hear I judge; and the judgment I hear is righteous because I seek not my own will, but the will of him that sent me." He then says concerning John the Baptist: "That man was for a short time a burning lamp, and you were willing to rejoice greatly in his light. But I have a witness greater than that of John the Baptist, for the very works the Father assigned me to accomplish, these works themselves bear witness about me ...Also the Father who sent me, has himself, borne witness,(Jhn 5:36,37).

YOU have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his figure; and you do not have his word remaining in you because the very one he dispatched to you, you do not believe. "You are searching the scriptures because you think by means of them you will have everlasting life, and these are the very ones that bear witness about me ...I do not accept the glory of men, but I well know that you do not have the love of God in you(Jhn 5:35,36) ...How can you believe when you are accepting the glory of one another and you are not seeking the glory that is from God. ...Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father, there is one that accuses YOU, Moses, in whom you have put your hope. In fact if you believed Moses you would believe me. for that one wrote about me, (cf. De 18:15).
LRW~

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FriendlyDoggo
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Re: Daniel 12:2. Michael the Archagel and the Resurrection. How, when and why?

#10 Post by FriendlyDoggo » 1 week ago

Hello everyone :wave: I'm sorry if that's a silly question, but what does Jesus being Michael have to do with 1914? I can't see a connection.
My english isn't very good, sorry any inconvenience.

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