Judging the twelve tribes

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investigate
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#11 Post by investigate » 2 weeks ago

Thank you both. I need to ponder over this a little more.

Rev 20:4 - those that did not receive the mark ruled as kings with Christ. Those that did receive the mark are not in the book of life. Or are you saying the role of judging is different than the role of being king and priest?

I can agree with the "two class" in the new system because there will be unrighteous resurrected. I need to think a little more about what happens to the sheep/goats -- I reread your article PoJ and can see that just a simple timing issue doesn't make much sense on who gets a 2nd chance or not. I'm having difficulty reconciling a two tier class system of Christians that do not receive the mark of the beast.

Especially in the light of what Jesus promises to the 7 congregations, to those who conquer. One of the promises for those who conquers is to sit down on the throne with Jesus, another is to shepherd the nations, and yet another is that if one proves faithful to death, they conquer. And then we have 1 John 5:4 *Everyone* born of spirit overcomes/conquers the world. We can't pick and choose the promises that Jesus gives to those who conquer.

Now if we said that there are Christians who are not born of spirit, that would make a lot of sense. But then we go round and round and we're back to Christians who are not born of spirit, even though it is a free gift and Jesus goes with anyone opening the door (Rev 3:20)

The only thing that seems to make sense would be if there are those who survive Armageddon/have God's mercy, but are not spirit-begotten Christians (in the same standing as unrighteous resurrected ones). Which is basically what the WT says the great crowd is now.

Kerry Huish
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#12 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 weeks ago

investigate wrote:
2 weeks ago
Especially in the light of what Jesus promises to the 7 congregations, to those who conquer. One of the promises for those who conquers is to sit down on the throne with Jesus, another is to shepherd the nations, and yet another is that if one proves faithful to death, they conquer. And then we have 1 John 5:4 *Everyone* born of spirit overcomes/conquers the world. We can't pick and choose the promises that Jesus gives to those who conquer.
The promises were made, not to the congregations but to the Angel of each congregation.
There is a secret regarding these ones, spoken of as being in Christ's right hand.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Revelation 2:1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:...
Revelation 2:8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:...
Revelation 2:12 “To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:...
Revelation 2:18 “To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:...
Revelation 3:1 “To the angel a of the church in Sardis write:...
Revelation 3:7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:...
Revelation 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:...

Everyone who is born of the spirit will indeed conquer the world.
But... there are those that are first and as such these have a firstborn's portion.

Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

The first 12,000 born out of each of the 12 spiritual tribes of Israel are taken as being firstborn or first fruits.

Exodus 13:2 “Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether human or animal.”
Revelation 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

This is why these ones in particular are called away to the throne.

Revelation 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” a And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Revelation 2:26, 27 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

This can only truly be appreciated if one accepts that there are indeed two classes.
If two classes is rejected in favor of a more Korah like approach, then things do not fit, frustration ensues and progress will be halted.

Numbers 16:3 They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, “You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the Lord’s assembly?”

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#13 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

investigate wrote:
2 weeks ago
Thank you both. I need to ponder over this a little more.

Rev 20:4 - those that did not receive the mark ruled as kings with Christ. Those that did receive the mark are not in the book of life. Or are you saying the role of judging is different than the role of being king and priest?
No, I meant that there are two definitions of the word "judged", in English this is one word, but Greek had many different variations. There is "judgement" as to "judge" as the kings and priests do, as to "make a choice" on something, then there is JUDGED as in "condemned".

The scriptures say that all Christians will be judged, but not JUDGED. Which explains any "surface" contradictions that Christians won't be judged yet will be judged.

The 12 tribes will be judged, but not JUDGED. Make sense?

Based on my reading of scripture, this allows for Christians to not have to recieve the mark of kingship in order to "live". We have to remember, there will be others in the book of life/will live forever in the future who do not have the mark of kingship (the ones the 144,000 will rule over and "judge", not "JUDGE").
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

investigate
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#14 Post by investigate » 3 days ago

Hi PoJ -- I came across another scripture in regular reading the other day I think that has bearing on this. Romans 9:27 -- although the sons of Israel would be like the sand of the sea, only a remnant would be saved. The saved remnant is a frequent theme in the OT as well. I still hold that *all* conquerors would receive the mark of kingship, based off Rev 20:4, Rev 3:21, and 1 John 5:4. But just as there has been some recent discussion on the identity of the woman in Revelation 12, and the merging John does of Jewish imagery with Christian, the same could apply here in Rev 7. John *hears* a complete number of a remnant (keep in mind the Diaspora had begun with the destruction of Jerusalem), then *sees* that this remnant is not only Jewish, but actually a great crowd out of all nations. Thus after seeing the great crowd he is able to identify the 144K with the lamb in Rev 14 when he *sees* them.

They would then judge the twelve tribes of Israel either by proving themselves to be part of the remnant (see: John 12:31), or at the end time, or by the definition of judging you pointed out that they would be part of the separating work of the unrighteous in the future. None of these unrighteous, even if they accept Jesus, will have been able to say they proved faithful until death, or stood victorious against the mark of the beast, until the end of the 1000 years and the final test.

I did a brief search over usages of "Israel" in the NT, and interestingly it isn't really used for Christians as a group either. Paul says the opposite in fact, that we are *Abraham's* seed, not just Israel, as the promise was to Abraham and not Israel.

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#15 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 3 days ago

investigate wrote:
3 days ago


I did a brief search over usages of "Israel" in the NT, and interestingly it isn't really used for Christians as a group either. Paul says the opposite in fact, that we are *Abraham's* seed, not just Israel, as the promise was to Abraham and not Israel.
Is Abraham's seed not Israel? I thought they were correlated as one thing? Since Paul also says those who are in Christ are "Israel".
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

investigate
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#16 Post by investigate » 3 days ago

You are right in that last comment - I misspoke. Wish I could edit out that last line. (Gal 6:16)

Get out of her
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#17 Post by Get out of her » 1 day ago

Investigate wrote:
Reviewed the memorial talk outline in preparation for any counter arguments to partaking, and the text at Matt 19:28 is an interesting one.
Scriptures like Matthew 7:1 appear to many as a direct contradiction to ones like Matthew 19:28, 1 Corinthians 6:2, or for that matter Acts 5:1-10 where we consider not only what was clearly a case of judging on the part of the first century Apostles, but obviously a rather ADVERSE judgment in this case. Much more importantly however it was unquestionably a case of judging that had Jehovah's support.

Rather than a contradiction, what we are actually dealing with here is simply another of a seemingly endless stream of examples that can be pointed to in the scriptures to demonstrate that we all very much need to get into a habit of paying much closer attention to extremely critical and often even rather sudden changes in the setting and context of any particular scriptural account we might be considering at the moment. I can assure you (investigate) that this is among the things that will soon very much diminish the struggle you are currently experiencing in understanding scriptural subject matter such as this if you would actually take this recommendation to heart. And by the way I likely could not express the level of respect and appreciation I have for the fact that you are taking a very humble and honest approach to this struggle.

But getting back to the topic at hand, as I've pointed out many times before we have all actually been heavily programmed to overlook these extremely pivotal and significant changes in the setting and context of the various scriptural accounts, and rest assured this was designed by satan for the very PURPOSE of keeping us confused and in the dark. But what exactly was the change in setting we are dealing with in this specific case?

This change which actually occurred very shortly AFTER Jesus spoke the words we find in Matthew 7:1 was exactly what was recorded for us in Luke 22:28, 29. You see in order for God's nation to actually do ANYTHING, INCLUDING judging, it must first actually EXIST, and what always HAD and always WOULD bring God's kingdom into existence after a BROKEN covenant transforms Jehovah's theocratic shepherds essentially into wicked scribes and Pharisees, is a RENEWED covenant with "REPENTANT" ones who for all practical purposes are actually AMONG these figurative pharisees if not among LITERAL ones such as was the case with Saul of Tarsus. (Ac 26:5) (Mt 3:2)

Now while the Apostle John made it perfectly clear that this particular covenant had been fully violated by the end of the first century with the "apostasy" that Paul himself had already been warning the new Christian nation about just a few decades earlier, and it was destined or foretold to experience TWO MORE very brief births even PRIOR to the Millennial Reign, nevertheless Bobcat would be perfectly in line with scripture to encourage you to focus more on that very thing (the Millennial Reign) in connection with the scriptures you are pondering in this case. (1 Joh 2:18) (Re 17:10) (2 Th 2:1-8) Why is this?

The fact is that at least some extent or other ALL "SEVEN" of the "births of the barren woman" foretold to occur in the setting in the setting of the "gentile times" or otherwise this succession of seven foreign world powers that would hold God's people in a form of "captivity and exile" were little more than a prophetic picture or drama of what would occur on a MUCH grander scale with the advent of the Millennial Reign. (Jer 15:9) (1 Sa 5:2) (Da 4:23, 32) Nobody understood that BETTER than the Apostle Paul which is precisely what accounts for statements he expressed in scriptures like 1 Corinthians 4:1, 8-13 or Romans 11:25.

It's quite likely that most people don't even begin to grasp the level of power and authority that the Apostles were actually dealing with in the first century since ANY legitimate manifestation of it is of course ultimately from Jehovah. However Paul understood that the EXPRESSION of this power and authority in the hands of mere sinful and imperfect humans SOME of whom were ALREADY by that time getting rather "puffed up" over it was almost INSIGNIFICANT next to what would come at some point with the "last trumpet." (I Cor 4:18 15:51-53) Prideful rulers very soon begin to ENSLAVE their subjects, and as you very correctly pointed out, JEHOVAH largely appoints judges and for that matter even kings to do just the opposite! (Lu 4:18, 19) (Mt 11:29, 30) In view of this very sinful tendency toward pride that obviously plagued even full fledged Apostles at the time, Paul was strongly encouraging his fellow shepherds to acquire or otherwise maintain a MUCH more humble and modest view, NOT actually of their position, but of THEMSELVES. And this actually brings me to your next statement here. (No reflection on you)
That, or we go back to two class christianity?
Particularly in view of scriptures like James 2:4, we would do well to recognize that every time we hear terms such as the "slave class" or the "John class" or "anointed class," there actually doesn't even seem to be a Greek equivalent to such a word, or at least not in the scriptures. (Perhaps strahz or someone with more knowledge of Greek than myself can offer more insight on this.) In the koine Greek writings, the word JESUS used when distinguishing the appointed shepherds of Jehovah's nation from the flock they would be assigned to "MINISTER" to was evidently–aule, which in THIS context at least would be translated to "fold" in English. (Joh 10:16) It is only "puffed up" elitists like those among the governing body of the Watchtower organization who wish to "lord it over" others that begin using terms like "John class" or "anointed class." (Mt 20:25-28)

There would OF COURSE be at least SOME kind of significant distinction between these two groups based on the fact ALONE that if ALL God's people were to end up as the heavenly 'kings and priests" spoken of in accounts like Revelation 5:10, obviously they wouldn’t even HAVE people to shepherd in the first place! But just in case these appointed shepherds might be inclined to begin thinking a bit too much of themselves, Jesus here in Matthew 10 is reminding them that THEY are actually the ones in the role of the lowly servant here, since they would in fact be the ones "MINISTERING!" Moreover in accounts like Genesis 48:17-20 which happens to be among MANY designed to help us understand this very same distinction, we find that this much smaller shepherding fold is ALREADY being led to this much more humble perspective. Yes, Poj is absolutely correct in what he is beginning to discover about the "usages of Israel in the NT." By its very DEFINITION the word- Christian points much more specifically to the SHEPHERDING fold of Jehovah's people since by a SCRIPTURAL definition it points only to the anointed or what ones like Paul and Luke also distinguished as "Jews" rather than simply Israelites. (Ro 2:28, 29) (Ac 18:24-28)

Once again however it is the specific SETTING or prophetic TIME FRAME that we should primarily be focusing on here. The fact is NEITHER of these sheep "folds" even EXIST in a setting of a broken kingdom covenant, which in turn is ALWAYS the setting that REQUIRES another of the foretold "comings of the kingdom." (2 Th 2:1-4) Until the moment it can once again be renewed and inaugurated with a ministry and subsequent "killing" and "calling to heaven" of the two prophets or "witnesses" that Jehovah ALWAYS appoints in these time frames, these two entities actually exist only in the form identified or described by ones like the prophet Ezekiel in the 23rd chapter of his book. (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12) (Eze 23:1-4) (Isa 1:21)

It is largely for that reason that I would VERY strongly encourage a seemingly small but in fact extremely significant adjustment in your approach to this issue of whether or not to partake at the next upcoming Memorial observance. I would lovingly and respectfully suggest that what you might RATHER be focused on for the moment is getting completely away from ALL organized religion, INCLUDING any and all of their memorial observances. (Re 18:4) (2 Cor 6:17) (Mt 24:15, 16) If there would be ANYONE discouraging you or for that matter even ENCOURAGING you to partake at a memorial it should be you YOURSELF along with perhaps some rather prayerful consideration of accounts like 1 Corinthians 11:27-32. The other reason I am offering this counsel is because among the divine rewards for actually obeying the divine commands found in the above scriptures is that you will soon NO LONGER be struggling to comprehend such scriptural or spiritual things. (Mt 13:11)

Is any of this making sense to you investigate?

Agape love;
Sol

investigate
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#18 Post by investigate » 1 day ago

Thank you as well, youve given me a lot to think about.

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