Judging the twelve tribes

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investigate
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Judging the twelve tribes

#1 Post by investigate » 2 weeks ago

Going to throw this out there, appreciate feedback. Reviewed the memorial talk outline in preparation for any counter arguments to partaking, and the text at Matt 19:28 is an interesting one. There is an interesting article here (https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Q_2228_30)

Also if we think of the book of Judges, the judges werent judging in the sense we think of it, but LIBERATING the Israelites. So Jesus would still do the separation, but those judging the twelve tribes would parallel Daniel 12:3. Or liberating all in the sense of being priests. If this is true, then the twelve tribes both in Matt 19:28 and the 144K out of the twelve tribes could refer to all people. Thoughts?

That, or we go back to two class christianity?

investigate
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#2 Post by investigate » 2 weeks ago

Can’t edit any more(couple minutes ?) but on the flip side it is the same greek root used at 1 Cor 6:2

investigate
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#3 Post by investigate » 2 weeks ago

Small followup -- Matt 19:28 speaks of the time of this being the regeneration. I think there is a tendency to apply all prophecy to the future, but this word παλινγενεσίᾳ also used in Titus 3:5 indicates it is with the outpouring of the holy spirit. The apostles clearly had authority in the 1st century. Perhaps that is all Jesus is referring to here? Or the literal 12 apostles would continue to have eminence (12 foundation stones of New Jerusalem).

If read this way, then Luke 22:30 refers to two separate promises - a promise for a kingdom, and also for a separate promise that they would receive authority then as judges.

Incidentally Matt 19:28 links the regeneration to Jesus sitting on his throne - lending support to the idea that Jesus started ruling with the outpouring of holy spirit.

On the other hand, Revelation 20:4 also says that there were thrones, and power of judging was given. So the same about Jesus' ruling could apply here.

All very difficult.

Bobcat
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#4 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

Hi investigate,

Based on how Mt 19:28 reads (thrones put in place), it sounds like Jesus has the Millennium in mind as the time he is talking about. Rev 20:4 was a good reference in your comment because it has many or all of the features of Mt 19:28. (This post has a link to a thread on Rev 20:4. See in the 'Observations' section, # 2 towards the bottom of the post.)

On the idea of some "regeneration" occurring now (Tit 3:5), it reminded me of the term "Inaugurated Eschatology." There are a number of links about that here. I would think that any regeneration now would be limited to the spirituality of Jesus' true followers, and probably not physical in any way, that is, in any permanent way. (For example, some health problems may be lessened due to being a follower of Jesus and his teachings. But the physical effects of sin continue during this age to their ultimate stage, death.)

There is a certain amount of anti-degeneration effect to Jesus' teachings. (Compare Mt 5:13) But a good bit of that effect has been tempered due to Satan's sowing of weeds in among the wheat. (Mt 13:38, 39)

That's my take on it for now.


Bobcat

investigate
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#5 Post by investigate » 2 weeks ago

Thanks for the references. Although the same greek word is used for regeneration it does seem to be two separate time periods/events, especially with the alternate rendering "new world".

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#6 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

You may have already seen my reasonings, but my interpretation is that 12 tribes = non-elect Christians.

Since the 12 Tribes are made of Jews, spiritually, Christians are Jews. Nowhere in the Bible do we see the "world" or "gentiles" called the 12 tribes or Jews.

I have reason to believe that there is a difference between entering the Kingdom and inheriting the Kingdom. Only those placing faith in Christ will be saved, that much is clear (whether this is before or after the 1000 years is a different matter, but everyone will get that chance). Therefore, if all must become believers in Christ, which is to be a baptised Christian by definition, then I think this means not all Christians will be judges or on thrones, but rather, will be subject to those on thrones on the New Earth.

The 144,000 are taken "from" the "12 tribes". You might reason that means "the world" because we know they will also "judge the world", but if we think of Jesus' words "you will drink my cup and be baptised, but a place at my right and left is for those my father prepared" really tells us word for word that not all spiritual Jews will be on thrones beside Jesus. So I think linking 12 tribes with the world based upon "being judged" is an association fallacy. They are two groups I believe, of whom both will be judged.

The parable of the wedding mentions "guests", whereas another parable mentions "wise virgins with their lamps", being presented to the bridegroom. These passages are linked in theme, but they may also be "different sides of the coin" you might say. The 144,000 = the Bride/virgins. The guests of the wedding = the 12 tribes.

When the world is judged, very much like the 10 plagues of Egypt, they will have chance to repent and put faith in Christ, in that sense, like the Egyptians of Moses day, they "join Israel" in crossing the Red Sea, and become "part of the 12 tribes", to be ruled over by Israel's king(s), judges and priesthood of (new) Jerusalem, in the nation of Israel/kingdom of God.

That's how I currently see things anyway.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

investigate
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#7 Post by investigate » 2 weeks ago

I would go on to argue, as many have done before in better words, that there are no non-elect Christians today. That's the whole point of Romans 8:28-39, and if I understand correctly, would basically be what we have today as two class Christianity (great crowd that are not spirit begotten).

Matt 25:34 - to the sheep he says "inherit the Kingdom", not enter into it. All others are destroyed. The great crowd are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and serve in the naos. Unrighteous resurrected ones would not automatically inherit/enter the Kingdom, they would need to wash their robes first (Rev 22:14), but of course are still "somewhere".

There's an interesting verse at Ezekiel 44:24 - the priests would be judges. Ezekiel 44:23 also closely parallels Daniel 12:3.

What you reason on does make a lot of sense. What if we considered all Christians now as "elect"/chosen/spirit begotten, and then the resurrected unrighteous would automatically be "under the Kingdom"/under spiritual Israel, but obviously not in a priestly capacity. Flesh and blood cannot enter God's Kingdom, so they would need to wash their robes to be able to enter (Rev 22:14). They may not necessarily be chosen ones, as they have not gone through trials, avoided the mark of the beast, or proved faithful until death. So the chosen/spirit begotten would judge those who wash their robes (all of spiritual Israel) *in the new world*/regeneration, not at the time of the sheep/goat separation. (if that's what you said, then apologies!).

Interesting commentary from Cambridge on Mark 10:40 here - https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/10-40.htm
Jesus does not just give out the Kingdom to his friends, but to those who are born of spirit (which had not happened yet). He could have been making a point here that he was not going to show un-merited favoritism.

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#8 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

investigate wrote:
2 weeks ago
I would go on to argue, as many have done before in better words, that there are no non-elect Christians today. That's the whole point of Romans 8:28-39, and if I understand correctly, would basically be what we have today as two class Christianity (great crowd that are not spirit begotten).

Matt 25:34 - to the sheep he says "inherit the Kingdom", not enter into it. All others are destroyed. The great crowd are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and serve in the naos. Unrighteous resurrected ones would not automatically inherit/enter the Kingdom, they would need to wash their robes first (Rev 22:14), but of course are still "somewhere".

There's an interesting verse at Ezekiel 44:24 - the priests would be judges. Ezekiel 44:23 also closely parallels Daniel 12:3.

What you reason on does make a lot of sense. What if we considered all Christians now as "elect"/chosen/spirit begotten, and then the resurrected unrighteous would automatically be "under the Kingdom"/under spiritual Israel, but obviously not in a priestly capacity. Flesh and blood cannot enter God's Kingdom, so they would need to wash their robes to be able to enter (Rev 22:14). They may not necessarily be chosen ones, as they have not gone through trials, avoided the mark of the beast, or proved faithful until death. So the chosen/spirit begotten would judge those who wash their robes (all of spiritual Israel) *in the new world*/regeneration, not at the time of the sheep/goat separation. (if that's what you said, then apologies!).

Interesting commentary from Cambridge on Mark 10:40 here - https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/10-40.htm
Jesus does not just give out the Kingdom to his friends, but to those who are born of spirit (which had not happened yet). He could have been making a point here that he was not going to show un-merited favoritism.
I've thought about the points you've made, and addressed them in my "two classes, two hopes" article on my site.

I believe in two classes, but this still being "one flock".
(on the 144,000) Of course, the number not being literal need not still debunk the idea of two Christian classes within the one flock, for one could still reason that the elect will be an “unknown number of chosen Christians”. Just as an Israelite not being a king, priest or judge in physical Israel did not mean that person was not a part of the “one chosen nation” of God, so could one make the argument that there being a ruling class and a non-ruling class of Christians does not mean that they are no longer “one flock”. This brings me naturally into the next section, defining the 12 Tribes.
On the sheep and goat parable....

But how do we reconcile this with Jesus’ statement of the sheep and goats at Matthew 25? There doesn’t appear to be described a “center position”, but only right and left… So are we to expect that any and all loyal Christians alive during Christ’s arrival are to be automatically considered part of the elect due to mere timing? I highly doubt such as that to me would not line up with Jesus’ words on the ellection being a “special prize” that God, not Jesus, gives out to specific individuals.

It is possible perhaps Jesus’ words were were meant to be understood contextually, in relation to the judgement of the “kingdoms” ruling the nations of this world who oppose him, the judgement of those who knowingly teach false religion (Babylon the Great), and the establishment of his Heavenly Kingdom, consisting of the 144,000. But we cannot just make a statement without any scriptural support.....

...and what about John 5:24 and the apparent contradiction that loyal Christians will not be judged as opposed to the 12 Tribes?

Well, on the ‘basis’ that there can be no other identity for the spritual 12 Tribes other than Christians, and that we know not all loyal Christians are elect according to Jesus’ words about drinking his cup, then it may be possible that this verse is not illuding to “being under judgement”, but rather will not be “judged”, which in this context may be used here as an alternative phrase for “condemnation”, in the same way that we can see in the earlier parable, that the Goats who were judged to everlasting Gehenna is obviously not refering to people who will be raised during the Second Resurrection for “judgement”.

A line of evidence for this may be found in Paul’s words:

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad”.2 Corinthians 5:10

We can see here that there must be more than one definition of “judged” and “judgement”, for Paul’s words here could also be seen to be contradicting John 5:24. Clearly, the term “judgement” gains clarity upon contextual application. In this case, non-elect Christians may be “judged” by the elect, but will not be “condemned in judgement”. Another line of evidence may also be found in the definitions of the specific word used here (Krisis) as seen in the lexicons which can mean not only “to judge” or “make a verdict” but to “condemn”, akin to the word “krima”, where as the word “krino” (which is not the word used in John 5) is more often used to refer to “a verdict” or a “choice between options” which is the word used in scriptures such as Matthew 19:28 which speak of the “judgement” of the 12 tribes.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/19-28.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/5-24.htm

Cognate: 2920 krísis (a feminine noun derived from 2919 /krínō, “to separate, distinguish, judge”) – judgment, emphasizing its qualitative aspect that can apply either to a positive verdict (for righteousness) – or more commonly, a “negative” verdict which condemns the nature of sin that brings it on. See 2919 (krinō).

2919 krínō – properly, to separate (distinguish), i.e. judge; come to a choice (decision, judgment) by making a judgment – either positive (a verdict in favor of) or negative (which rejects or condemns).

J. Thayer comments that “the proper meaning of 2919 (krínō) is to pick out (choose) by separating“ (as also used in Homer, Herodotus, Aeschyl., Xenophon, Plato). 2919 /krínō (“distinguish, judge”) typically refers to making a determination of right or wrong (innocence or guilt), especially on an official (legal) standard. We only judge (2919 /krínō) accurately by intelligent comparison and contrast based on God’s word, i.e. to approve (prefer) what is correct and reject what is inferior (wrong). [2919 (krínō) is used of “bringing to trial” (the trying of fact) in a court of law.

Cognate: 2917 kríma (a neuter noun derived from 2919 /krínō, “to distinguish, judge”) – judgment, emphasizing its result (note the -ma suffix). This is everlasting damnation (torment) for the unredeemed (the usual implication of 2319 /theostygḗs) – or the eternal benefits that come from the Lord’s judgment in favor of the redeemed (cf. Rev 20:4). See 2919 (krinō). 2917 /kríma (“the results of a judgment“) dramatically Links cause-to-effect. Indeed, every decision (action) we make carries inevitable eternal results (cf. Ecc 12;14). – HELPS Word-studies


Thus we have both scriptural support and language definition support to suppose that the meaning of Matthew 5 does not contradict the idea of the 12 Tribes to be identified as Christians who will come under the judgement of the 144,000 Christians to then be declared righteous by them.

But still, do we have any proof that people will be still alive after Christ seperates these “sheep and goats” on Earth before the Second Resurrection? And that the 12 Tribe Christians may indeed not only consist of resurrected ones? Possibly, yes! In the book of Revelation.

Revelation 14:1,6-10, 12, 14-19

If the above passage is in chronological order, then we can see people are still alive on the Earth and are being judged, ‘after’ the elect have been taken from the Earth, for they are at Christ’s side during this time of the judgement of Babylon and the nations, and not only that, we are told that there are “holy ones” who have to “endure” the troubles on the Earth whilst the 144,000 appear to be in Heaven (Mount Zion) with Christ. Thus this may possibly be telling us the context of the parable of the Sheep and Goats, that it does indeed refer to the seperation and judgement of specific groups and institutions, and that not “all” Christians will be taken to Heaven at this time.

Thus, if this is to be the case, and my logic and interpretations are correct, then we could attest that the “sheep and goat” parable of Matthew 25 was perhaps in regards to a specific context, perhaps the Heavenly gathering of the elect, and the judgement of Babylon and the “Wild Beast” which may reperesent the seats of power of the world’s nations and false religions (Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 19:19-21). If such was the case, it would be an appropriate correlation, for the Earth’s wicked governments to be eternally destroyed and replaced with God’s Kingdom ruled by Christ and the elect 144,000.

But alternatively, Revelation 14 may be refering to the “gathering” of the elect, with the 144,000 being by Christ in the opening verse as a visual or symbolic “introduction”, to give context to the following events being described, the “reaping” of the Earth possibly being the same event as the the seperation of the elected Sheep and the condemned Goats. However, the verse does not tell us that these events are ‘not’ a literal description of events in plain chronological order either, so either interpretation may be valid.
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

johnamos2.0
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#9 Post by johnamos2.0 » 2 weeks ago

Luke 22:30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom,+ and sit on thrones+ to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.+

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, in the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.+

Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection;+ over these the second death+ has no authority,+ but they will be priests+ of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.+

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed,* a hundred and forty-four thousand,+ sealed out of every tribe+ of the sons of Israel: (12 tribes)

1 Corinthians 6:20 for YOU were bought with a price.+ By all means, glorify God+ in the body+ of YOU people.

Rev 5:9 And they sing a new song,+ saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood+ you bought+ persons for God+ out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom+ and priests+ to our God,+ and they are to rule as kings*+ over* the earth.”

Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd,+ which no man was able to number, out of all nations*+ and tribes and peoples+ and tongues,...14“These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation,+ and they have washed their robes and made them white+ in the blood+ of the Lamb.

:eek: :?

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#10 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote:
2 weeks ago
Luke 22:30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom,+ and sit on thrones+ to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.+

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, in the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.+

Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection;+ over these the second death+ has no authority,+ but they will be priests+ of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.+

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed,* a hundred and forty-four thousand,+ sealed out of every tribe+ of the sons of Israel: (12 tribes)

1 Corinthians 6:20 for YOU were bought with a price.+ By all means, glorify God+ in the body+ of YOU people.

Rev 5:9 And they sing a new song,+ saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood+ you bought+ persons for God+ out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom+ and priests+ to our God,+ and they are to rule as kings*+ over* the earth.”

Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd,+ which no man was able to number, out of all nations*+ and tribes and peoples+ and tongues,...14“These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation,+ and they have washed their robes and made them white+ in the blood+ of the Lamb.

:eek: :?
Yep.

How I see it is:

12 tribes = Symbolic of Christians (who consist of all the fleshly nations, but spiritually are Jews)
144,000 taken from the 12 tribes = symbolic number of those taken from the spiritual Jews
Great crowd = the fleshly/literal reality of the symbolic 144,000, an unknowable number of elect chosen out of all the Christians of whom consist of all sorts of ethinic groups all over the world (thus granting us context that the 12 tribes/144,000 are only 'symbolically' Jews, and is not referring to physical Israel).
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

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