Judging the twelve tribes

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investigate
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#11 Post by investigate » 2 weeks ago

Thank you both. I need to ponder over this a little more.

Rev 20:4 - those that did not receive the mark ruled as kings with Christ. Those that did receive the mark are not in the book of life. Or are you saying the role of judging is different than the role of being king and priest?

I can agree with the "two class" in the new system because there will be unrighteous resurrected. I need to think a little more about what happens to the sheep/goats -- I reread your article PoJ and can see that just a simple timing issue doesn't make much sense on who gets a 2nd chance or not. I'm having difficulty reconciling a two tier class system of Christians that do not receive the mark of the beast.

Especially in the light of what Jesus promises to the 7 congregations, to those who conquer. One of the promises for those who conquers is to sit down on the throne with Jesus, another is to shepherd the nations, and yet another is that if one proves faithful to death, they conquer. And then we have 1 John 5:4 *Everyone* born of spirit overcomes/conquers the world. We can't pick and choose the promises that Jesus gives to those who conquer.

Now if we said that there are Christians who are not born of spirit, that would make a lot of sense. But then we go round and round and we're back to Christians who are not born of spirit, even though it is a free gift and Jesus goes with anyone opening the door (Rev 3:20)

The only thing that seems to make sense would be if there are those who survive Armageddon/have God's mercy, but are not spirit-begotten Christians (in the same standing as unrighteous resurrected ones). Which is basically what the WT says the great crowd is now.

Kerry Huish
Posts: 411
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#12 Post by Kerry Huish » 2 weeks ago

investigate wrote:
2 weeks ago
Especially in the light of what Jesus promises to the 7 congregations, to those who conquer. One of the promises for those who conquers is to sit down on the throne with Jesus, another is to shepherd the nations, and yet another is that if one proves faithful to death, they conquer. And then we have 1 John 5:4 *Everyone* born of spirit overcomes/conquers the world. We can't pick and choose the promises that Jesus gives to those who conquer.
The promises were made, not to the congregations but to the Angel of each congregation.
There is a secret regarding these ones, spoken of as being in Christ's right hand.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Revelation 2:1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:...
Revelation 2:8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:...
Revelation 2:12 “To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:...
Revelation 2:18 “To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:...
Revelation 3:1 “To the angel a of the church in Sardis write:...
Revelation 3:7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:...
Revelation 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:...

Everyone who is born of the spirit will indeed conquer the world.
But... there are those that are first and as such these have a firstborn's portion.

Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

The first 12,000 born out of each of the 12 spiritual tribes of Israel are taken as being firstborn or first fruits.

Exodus 13:2 “Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether human or animal.”
Revelation 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

This is why these ones in particular are called away to the throne.

Revelation 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” a And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Revelation 2:26, 27 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

This can only truly be appreciated if one accepts that there are indeed two classes.
If two classes is rejected in favor of a more Korah like approach, then things do not fit, frustration ensues and progress will be halted.

Numbers 16:3 They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, “You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the Lord’s assembly?”

Kind Regards

Kerry
Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#13 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 2 weeks ago

investigate wrote:
2 weeks ago
Thank you both. I need to ponder over this a little more.

Rev 20:4 - those that did not receive the mark ruled as kings with Christ. Those that did receive the mark are not in the book of life. Or are you saying the role of judging is different than the role of being king and priest?
No, I meant that there are two definitions of the word "judged", in English this is one word, but Greek had many different variations. There is "judgement" as to "judge" as the kings and priests do, as to "make a choice" on something, then there is JUDGED as in "condemned".

The scriptures say that all Christians will be judged, but not JUDGED. Which explains any "surface" contradictions that Christians won't be judged yet will be judged.

The 12 tribes will be judged, but not JUDGED. Make sense?

Based on my reading of scripture, this allows for Christians to not have to recieve the mark of kingship in order to "live". We have to remember, there will be others in the book of life/will live forever in the future who do not have the mark of kingship (the ones the 144,000 will rule over and "judge", not "JUDGE").
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

investigate
Posts: 31
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#14 Post by investigate » 1 day ago

Hi PoJ -- I came across another scripture in regular reading the other day I think that has bearing on this. Romans 9:27 -- although the sons of Israel would be like the sand of the sea, only a remnant would be saved. The saved remnant is a frequent theme in the OT as well. I still hold that *all* conquerors would receive the mark of kingship, based off Rev 20:4, Rev 3:21, and 1 John 5:4. But just as there has been some recent discussion on the identity of the woman in Revelation 12, and the merging John does of Jewish imagery with Christian, the same could apply here in Rev 7. John *hears* a complete number of a remnant (keep in mind the Diaspora had begun with the destruction of Jerusalem), then *sees* that this remnant is not only Jewish, but actually a great crowd out of all nations. Thus after seeing the great crowd he is able to identify the 144K with the lamb in Rev 14 when he *sees* them.

They would then judge the twelve tribes of Israel either by proving themselves to be part of the remnant (see: John 12:31), or at the end time, or by the definition of judging you pointed out that they would be part of the separating work of the unrighteous in the future. None of these unrighteous, even if they accept Jesus, will have been able to say they proved faithful until death, or stood victorious against the mark of the beast, until the end of the 1000 years and the final test.

I did a brief search over usages of "Israel" in the NT, and interestingly it isn't really used for Christians as a group either. Paul says the opposite in fact, that we are *Abraham's* seed, not just Israel, as the promise was to Abraham and not Israel.

Proselytiser of Jah
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Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#15 Post by Proselytiser of Jah » 1 day ago

investigate wrote:
1 day ago


I did a brief search over usages of "Israel" in the NT, and interestingly it isn't really used for Christians as a group either. Paul says the opposite in fact, that we are *Abraham's* seed, not just Israel, as the promise was to Abraham and not Israel.
Is Abraham's seed not Israel? I thought they were correlated as one thing? Since Paul also says those who are in Christ are "Israel".
"The fruitage of the Spirit is; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..." Galatians 5:22-23

investigate
Posts: 31
Joined: 2 months ago

Re: Judging the twelve tribes

#16 Post by investigate » 1 day ago

You are right in that last comment - I misspoke. Wish I could edit out that last line. (Gal 6:16)

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