The Great Tribulation of Rev 7:14

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Bobcat
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Re: The Great Tribulation of Rev 7:14

#11 Post by Bobcat » 3 weeks ago

Part 3 is now in place. Starting to work on part 4 now.


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Re: The Great Tribulation of Rev 7:14

#12 Post by Bobcat » 3 weeks ago

"The Sign of the Son of Man in Heaven"


Introduction

This thread has, as its original aim, to explain in detail the events of "the great tribulation" of Rev 7:14. But in aiming for that, it requires laying a foundation that involves the great tribulation that befell the Jews in the first century. My understanding of the events of the future great tribulation requires seeing the pattern of events in the first century one. The tribulation that befell the Jews in the first century follows a general pattern that is to be repeated in the one to come.

But having said that, there are some things different in the first century tribulation due to it being a localized event, that will not be repeated in the future one. And there are some things in the future one, due to its being a worldwide event, that did not occur in the first century one. When one tries to directly apply the description of the first century event to the one to come, this results in a distorted understanding of what is to come. And we want an understanding that is not distorted.

As I have argued so far in this thread, the events described in Mt 24:4-35, Mr 13:5-31 and Lu 21:8-33 are Jesus' answer to the disciples' question about when the Temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed. (Mt 24:1-3, Mr 13:1-4, Lu 21:5-7) This was discussed in part 1. Common objections to a first century only fulfillment were covered in part 2, as well as a brief discussion of the opening of the Jewish-Roman War that began in 66 CE. Part 3 focused on "the tribulation of those days" and what happened "immediately after." (Mt 24:29, Mr 13:24-25, Lu 21:25-26) Parts 2 and 3 have also pointed out how, in part, Daniel 11:36-12:12 forms the basis of Jesus' description of what was to befall the first century Jewish nation.
This mention of Daniel chapter 12 should not be interpreted to mean that there won't be a further fulfillment of that prophecy after the first century. Jesus hints at a yet further fulfillment when he alludes to Dan 12:3 in Mt 13:43. The context of the parable of the wheat and weeds puts Dan 12:3 after the end of the present age. (Mt 13:40-42) Thus, for example, the passage in Dan 12:2 could have a literal fulfillment during "the last day," as well as a figurative fulfillment in this age where Mt 24:31 is paralleled with Dan 12:2-3, along with Mt 22:8-10 in the parable of the wedding banquet. See also the discussion here, and extending down to post # 9 in that thread. It is in connection with what Jesus said in Jn 5:25 and its relation to Ezek 37:1-28.

In case the reader is new to this thread, the index link at the bottom of this post will allow for rapid movement between the main articles in this thread. With these things in mind, the discussion that follows will focus on Mt 24:30.


The Context of Matthew 24:30

A first step in understanding the fulfillment of Mt 24:30 is seeing the context within which it occurs. Mt 24:1-2 has Jesus stunning statement that the temple built by Herod, which was the center of true worship at the time, that it would be violently flattened (Mr 13:1-2, Lu 21:5-6). Matthew 24:3 (and Mr 13:4 & Lu 21:7) has the disciples asking when will "these things" happen. On the other end of the prophecy that Jesus gives, which includes Mt 24:30, he gives a summary illustration in which he says that "all these things" will take place before "this generation" passes away. (Mt 24:32-35, Mr 13:28-31, Lu 21:29-33) So, the first context markers are these two bookends, if you will, which surround Mt 24:30. (In rhetorical literary style, this is called an inclusio.) They argue that Mt 24:30 was intended to be part of the prophecy about the destruction of the Temple.

Another context indicator is Matthew's (or rather, Jesus') use of temporal markers throughout the prophecy. We have already discussed these in previous parts. Mt 24:14 has the good news being preached, "and then (Gk kai tote) the end will come." A sign to watch for is given in Mt 24:15. "Then" (tote) the disciples are to flee to safety (Mt 24:16-20). "For then" (gar tote) there will be great tribulation (Mt 24:21). "Then" (tote) they were to watch out so as not to be misled into thinking this tribulation involved some sort of secret or hidden parousia (Mt 24:23-25, 26, 27). "Immediately after" in Mt 24:29 served as another temporal marker showing the progression of events. And now, in Mt 24:30 (as well as the parallels in Mr 13:26 & Lu 21:27) Jesus introduces the sign of the Son of Man with, "and then ..." (kai tote). The natural way to understand this is that Mt 24:30 is a follow on event from Mt 24:29. It is part of the sequence of events leading to Jesus' description of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

The discussion in part 3 of Mt 24:29 (as well as Mr 13:24-25 & Lu 21:25-26), and its fulfillment in the Roman civil war of 68-69 CE also serves as an historical marker. We know from history that the siege of Jerusalem began in February 70 CE and lasted until July. So that, from this historical perspective, the siege of Jerusalem is the next major event to take place in the Jewish-Roman War.

And finally, the language used in Mt 24:30 is climactic in nature. In reading the prophecy, one naturally gets the idea that the climax is being described in Mt 24:30. Granted, it is in highly symbolic or figurative language. But all these other indicators place it in the first century judgment upon the Jews.


The Rendering of Matthew 24:30

An objection that might be raised concerning a first century application of Mt 24:30 is that there is no historical evidence of a "sign of the Son of Man" appearing in heaven over Jerusalem during the Jewish-Roman War. Moreover, there is no evidence that "the tribes of the earth" lamented back then. Nor did anyone see Jesus "coming on the clouds of heaven" back then. So how could it be said that Mt 24:30 was fulfilled back then?

As already pointed out above, all the contextual markers point to such a first century fulfillment. So, how do we solve this problem?

The problem involves centuries of Christian interpretation of this verse. Interpretation that has affected how the verse is typically rendered. Interpretation that believes Mt 24:30 is describing an end of the age event, rather than a first century one. The problem also involves understanding the OT allusions that lie behind the verse. What we will do is to take the verse apart, phrase by phrase.


The Opening Phrase of Matthew 24:30

Here are some typical renderings of Mt 24:30 from several fairly literal translations:
Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man. (ESV)
Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven. (NWT, NET)
But note what a word-for-word translation of the first phrase of the Greek text of Mt 24:30 looks like:
And then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven. (KIT literal rendering)

Now compare the differences: The ESV has moved "in heaven" from the end of the text to right after the verb "will appear." This has the effect of causing the verse to describe where the sign will appear. It appears "in heaven," that is, in the sky. The NWT and NET do the very same thing, only in a different way. They leave "in heaven" at the end of the verse, but move the verb, "will appear," to right before "in heaven." All three examples, then, cause the verse to describe where the sign will appear. And they do this because this is how they understand the verse to be fulfilled.

But in contrast, look again at the KIT literal rendering. In this instance, the verse is describing a "sign" that "will appear." And the "sign" is something that indicates that "the Son of Man" is "in heaven." When seen this way, the verse isn't describing how or where the "sign" "will appear." It is only saying that it "will appear," and that those who see this "sign" will know that "the Son of Man" is "in heaven." (See also note # 2 below for a survey of the use of "in heaven" in the book of Matthew.)

Thus, a person who argues that there was no sign that appeared in the sky in 70 CE, that person is unwittingly making a circular argument. They think the verse is foretelling a sky-based "sign," when in fact, the translators made the verse say that. And they made it say that because that is how they believe it will be fulfilled.

For comparison, Rev 12:1 IS describing a heaven or sky-based sign. A word for word rendering of the text says, "And sign great was seen in the heaven, woman ..." (KIT literal rendering of Rev 12:1). In this instance, "in the heaven" occurs right after the verb "was seen," so as to give the location of the sign. But Mt 24:30 has "will appear" and "in heaven" at opposite ends of the phrase. In Mt 24:30, "in heaven" is not describing where the sign "will appear." Rather, it is describing where "the Son of Man" is.

Understanding Mt 24:30 in this literal way makes all the more sense when you recall what Jesus told the Sanhedrin during his trial:
"From now on you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Mt 26:64 NWT, see also Mr 14:62, Lu 22:69)
In the years following Jesus' death, his persecutors continued on in their apostate ways. Jesus' followers continued reminding the populace that judgment was coming upon the city and Temple. But as far as the Jewish religious leaders and citizens were concerned, Jesus was long dead. And when they chased Cestius Gallus away in 66 CE, they were probably inclined to think that God would never let Jerusalem and its Temple suffer like it did in the days of Babylon. So when General Titus and his forces returned in February 70 CE, they served as a "sign" that Jesus was in a position of great power, fully able to see to it that his predictions about the Temple would come true.


"All the Tribes ... Will Beat Themselves in Grief"

A second argument that one might raise in an effort to say that Mt 24:30 is a yet future event is:
There is no historical evidence that "all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation" in 70 CE.

The problem with this argument is the same as the problem with the first argument. The word "earth" is chosen by translators because they believe that Matthew 24:30 is a future event.

The Greek word rendered "earth" is gēs. (See here.) According to the definition of the word at BibleHub the word can mean, "the earth, soil, land, region, country, inhabitants of a region." Thayer's Lexicon lists, as one of its meanings, "5. a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region; simply, when it is plain from the context what land is meant, as that of the Jews." And Thayer gives Luke 21:23 as an example where the context requires that the word take on the meaning of "land."

Thus, according to how one understands the context of Mt 24:30, it could just as well read, "and then all the tribes of the land (meaning, the territory of the Jews) will beat themselves in lamentation." This way of translating gēs in Mt 24:30 would agree with all the other indications, that is, the temporal connectives, the historical timeline, and the summary illustration of Mt 24:32-35 which describes "all these things" as happening to "this generation." It would also agree well with Luke 21:23 where he has Jesus saying that, "there will be great distress upon the earth (or "land"; Greek gēs) and wrath against this people." The fact that "earth" or "land" is paired with "this people" (i.e. the Jews) makes it clear that the "earth" or "land" being referred to is the country of the Jews. (Compare also Lu 21:20)

Understanding gēs as meaning the 'land of the Jews,' and understanding Mt 24:30 as having taken place in 70 CE would mean that that part of Mt 24:30 could be historically established since all the tribes of the Jews in the Jewish homeland did 'lament' over the catastrophe that befell them when Titus besieged Jerusalem.

As described on this link (par. 13 specifically), many Jews who survived Vespasian's campaign in Galilee (from 67-68 CE) fled to what they perceived to be the only safe haven, Jerusalem. And thus, Jews from all of their "tribes" were on hand when Titus began his siege of the city in February 70 CE. (For further discussion of this middle phrase of Mt 24:30, see this post.)


"Coming on the Clouds of Heaven"

For the sake of shortening this post, see this post, with included links, discussing the final phrase of Mt 24:30 and its fulfillment in the first century.


Regarding Matthew 24:31

I've already briefly touched on Mt 24:31 above and in the sub-title, The Counter-Arguments, in part 2 of this thread. When Mt 24:4-31 is seen as being fulfilled in the first century, Mt 24:31 then follows the pattern of events described in the parable of the wedding banquet in Mt 22:1-14. Specifically, the parable describes the early invited guests rejecting their invitation to the wedding (Mt 22:3, 5, 6). In anger, the king kills them and sets their city on fire. (Mt 22:7) Then the king sends out his slaves on an extended search for more wedding guests. (Mt 22:8-10) So that, if Mt 24:30 fits the description of Mt 22:7, then, Mt 24:31 would fit the description of Mt 22:8-10.

I intend to make a separate post with some reference material on Mt 24:31 which I will try to link to here when I do so. (For which, see part # 5 in this thread.)


Conclusion

With this background and discussion of the first century "great tribulation, I think I am ready to move on to the coming "great tribulation," and make effective us of the pattern that was set.


Bobcat

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Notes:
1. "This generation" in Mt 24:34 (and Mr 13:30 & Lu 21:32) has been the subject of various interpretations over the years. Probably the main reason it has had such a variety of interpretations is due to trying to interpret the prophecy beyond its first century context. When the prophecy is understood as being fulfilled in the first century, then, "this generation" takes on its natural meaning, that of Jesus' contemporaries. So that the reader can see for him/her self how the Greek word genea (often rendered "generation") is used in the NT, and especially in the gospel accounts, what follows is a listing of every occurrence of genea (Strong's # 1074) in the NT. Just hover over each verse to see what the verse actually says:
Mt 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34 (13x); Mr 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30 (5x); Lu 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 16:8; 17:25; 21:32 (15x); Ac 2:40; 8:33; 13:36; 14:16; 15:21 (5x); Eph 3:5, 21 (2x); Php 2:15; Col 1:26; Heb 3:10. (43x)

See the links in this post for discussions of various aspects of the parable of the fig tree.
2. All the verses in Matthew where "in heaven" or "in the heavens" occur:
Mt 5:12, 16, 45; 6:1, 9, 10, 20; 7:11, 21; 10:32, 33; 12:50; 16:17, 19; 18:10, 14, 18, 19; 19:21; 22:30; 24:30; 28:18.
I'll develop this part later. But its purpose is to show further evidence that the placement of "in heaven" at the end of the first phrase of Mt 24:30 favors its application to "the Son of Man," as opposed to the verb "will appear."

From what I have been seeing so far consulting the interlinear rendering of these verses is that, without exception, the phrase "in (the) heaven(s)" is always located close to whatever is being described as being there. The result of this analysis is that, in Mt 24:30, "in heaven" would naturally be understood as referring to "the Son of Man," not he verb "will appear." The reason for placing it with "will appear" has everything to do with how the translator is interpreting the verse.

Bobcat
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Re: The Great Tribulation of Rev 7:14

#13 Post by Bobcat » 3 weeks ago

5. Additional Reference Regarding Matthew 24:31


Comparing the Parallel Verses

For comparison, below are how the three parallel verses read:
And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity. (Mt 24:31 NWT)

And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity. (Mr 13:27 NWT)

But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.” (Lu 21:28 NWT)
A detailed comparison results in:
• Luke omits this "gathering" detail altogether and replaces it with encouragement.

• Matthew starts with, "And ..." (καὶ); Mark with "And then ..." (καὶ τότε)

• Matthew says, "he will send out his angels"; Mark says, "he will send out the angels"

• Matthew adds, "with a great trumpet sound"; Mark omits this.

• Matthew: "and they will gather" (ἐπισυνάξουσιν); Mark: "and will gather" (ἐπισυνάξει)

• Matthew: "from one extremity of the heavens"; Mark: "from earth's extremity"

• Matthew: "to their other extremity"; Mark: "to heaven's extremity"
(Just as a side note, it appears to me that Matthew has borrowed from Mark and made slight adjustments, and not the other way around. This would be a possible indication that Mark's account came before Matthew's.)


Reference Comments

From the NICNT-Matthew commentary on Mt 24:31 (Richard France, pp. 927-28):
The sequel to the enthronement of the Son of Man as king [Mt 24:30] is the gathering together of the subjects of his kingdom, his "chosen people" (see on Mt 22:14 and cf. Mt 24:22, 24). [Mt 24:31] They will come not only from Judea but from all over the world. As in Mt 24:29-30, the language continues to be drawn from OT prophecy. The gathering of God's people from the ends of the earth is a recurrent OT theme (see on Mt 8:11-12), but the passages most closely echoed here are Deut 30:4, which speaks of God "gathering" his people who were scattered "from the end of heaven to the end of heaven," and LXX Zech 2:10, where God says to his scattered people, "I will gather you from the four winds of heaven." The "great trumpet blast" echoes another such regather prophecy in Isa 27:13. These were, of course, in their original context, prophecies of the regathering of scattered Israel, but again Jesus' discourse takes passages about the OT people of God and applies them to the "chosen people" of the Son of Man. We saw the same pattern in the OT allusions in Mt 8:11-12, where those who would come "from east and west" would no longer be the scattered tribes of Israel but those whose faith in Jesus enabled them, like the Gentile centurion, to become members of God's international kingdom.

The agents of this gathering will be "his angels"; see on Mt 13:41 and Mt 16:27 for the idea that God's angels also serve the Son of Man in his heavenly glory (and cf. Mt 26:53). In human terms the ingathering of the chosen people may be expected to be through the work of human "messengers," and it would be possible to take angeloi here in that sense, which it carries in Mt 11:10. But in all other uses in Matthew (including Mt 16:28, which is also based on the vision of Dan 7) it denotes heavenly beings, and in this context of the heavenly authority of the Son of Man it probably refers to the spiritual power underlying human evangelization. The "great trumpet blast" which Matthew alone includes at this point suits a more supernatural dimension to this ingathering.

Personal Analysis

If the "desolating abomination" of Mt 24:15 is drawn from Dan 12:11, and the tribulation of Mt 24:21 is drawn from Dan 12:1, then, Mt 24:31 would have its roots in Dan 12:2, 3. Not the wording itself, but in the sequence of the action. The awakening would be along the lines of Jn 5:25 and Ezek 37:1-14. The fact that some in Dan 12:2 would 'awake to life' and 'some to shame,' this would also correspond to the wheat and weeds of Mt 13:24-30, 36-43. It would also correspond with the parable of the dragnet scooping up fish of all kinds, some suitable, and some not so suitable. (Mt 13:47)

And yet, Jesus' allusion to Dan 12:3 in a post end of the age context (Mt 13:41-42, 43) would seem to imply another fulfillment of Dan 12:3 during the Millennium. In which case, Dan 12:2 would take on literal meaning. It might also imply that Dan 12:1 will be fulfilled again in the coming "great tribulation. And this also has me wondering about the time periods in Dan 12:7, 11-12. (Compare also this thread.) (Interestingly, Dan 12:2 LXX is borrowed again in Revelation 20:9. See this post for discussion of that.)

As an interesting aside, see this post (and included links) regarding Dan 12:4 and its possible relationship with Mt 24:14 and 24:31. Understanding Mt 24:31 as described above results in Mt 24:14 & 24:31 being complimentary of each other. At the time the Olivet Discourse was given, the disciples were had been instructed to preach only within Israel. (Mt 10:5-7) Mt 24:14 predicts that the gospel would have reached the extent of the Roman Empire by the time of the Jewish-Roman War. Mt 24:31 then predicts its extension throughout the entire planet.


Bobcat

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Notes:
1. Commenting on the background of Jn 5:29, the Commentary on the NT Use of the OT (G K Beale & D A Carson, p. 442) says:
Jesus' reference to the resurrection in Jn 5:29 ("those who have done what is good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment") may hark back to Dan 12:2 ("some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt")
Jesus made another astonishing statement just before his statement about those in the memorial tombs in Jn 5:28-29. In Jn 5:25 he said, "Truly, truly I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." The same reference as above says:
Jesus' words at Jn 5:25, "The dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have heard it will live," are reminiscent of Ezekiel's vision of the valley of dry bones (Ezek 37; cf. Rom 4:17; Eph 2:1-5). This is one of several instances in this Gospel [i.e. John] where the book of Ezekiel looms in the background (cf. Jn chap. 10, esp. Jn 10:16). (p. 442)
John 5:25 would relate more closely with Ezek 37:1-14. And Jn 10:16 would hint at Ezek 37:15-28.

Thus, Jn 5:25, as well as Rom 4:17 & Eph 2:1-5, would form the basis for understanding Dan 12:2 in a Christian era setting. Jesus alludes to Dan 12:3 in a eschatological setting. In doing so, it would imply that Dan 11-36-12:12 would have some sort of end of the age fulfillment, along with a fulfillment tied to the Jewish-Roman War. Dan 12:2 in the post age setting would describe a literal resurrection. But during the Christian era fulfillment it would be along the lines of Jn 5:25, Rom 4:17 & Eph 2:1-5.

The phrase, "some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" would be understood as a purpose clause. They don't immediately receive 'everlasting life' or 'everlasting contempt.' Rather, their waking up leads to those two eventual outcomes. (Compare also Jn 5:24.)

For additional discussion and links regarding the 4th gospel's use of Ezekiel, see this post (and on down to post # 9).

For some additional discussion and links regarding Jn 5:29 and Dan 12:2, see this post.

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Re: The Great Tribulation of Rev 7:14

#14 Post by AmosAU » 3 weeks ago

Hi Bobcat,

Excellent research.

I've just started to read the article and have saved it in a document so I can read it offline.

With all else on my plate, it could take a couple more days to finish it.

Thanks for your efforts.

Regards, Amos.

Bobcat
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Re: The Great Tribulation of Rev 7:14

#15 Post by Bobcat » 3 weeks ago

Thanks for the encouragement Amos.

You might want to re-copy the material in a couple of days. I have edited some spelling and added to the material a little bit. For example, under the sub-title, In Matthew 24 & Mark 13, I added some material about Luke 21:20-24 (here).


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Re: The Great Tribulation of Rev 7:14

#16 Post by Bobcat » 2 weeks ago

The "Gentile Times" of Luke 21:24


Due to the size of this article, and because the topic itself is of interest beyond just this thread, it has been given its own thread. The index for that article can be found here.


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Notes:

Bobcat
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Re: The Great Tribulation of Rev 7:14

#17 Post by Bobcat » 1 week ago

What Kind of Tribulation Does Revelation 7:14 Refer To?


Note to the reader: This article was formerly main article number 6. It has been moved to main article number 7. The index below will take the reader to its replacement for main article number 6.

This article is still being prepared.


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Notes:
1. One of the curious things I found while researching for this thread is related to Rev 3:10 and "the hour of test." A number of references connect the phrase with Dan 12:1 & 10. For example:
That John has in mind a spiritual protection of Christians as they go through tribulation is evident from noticing that Rev 3:10 may well be alluding to Dan 12:1, 10 LXX, where "that hour" is immediately described as "that day of tribulation" (cf. Rev 7:14) when "many are tested and sanctified and sinners sin." This suggests that the "testing" here in Rev 3:10 has the double effect of purifying and strengthening believers while being at the same time a divine punishment on unbelievers (likewise Alford 1866:586) (Commentary on the NT Use of the OT; G K Beale & D A Carson, p. 1097)
Regarding Rev 3:10, the BECNT-Revelation commentary (Grant R Osborne, p.193) has this to say:
A decision on the meaning of τῆς ὥρας τοῦ πειρασμοῦ (tes horas tou peirasmou, the hour of trial) is essential to the meaning. 20 The consensus view is that it refers to the final end time trials that precede the eschaton. This is differentiated by the local "ten-day tribulation" of Smyrna (Rev 2:10) by its involvement of "the whole world" (τῆς οἰκουμένης ὅλης, tes oikoumenes holes) and so connotes a worldwide conflagration, the messianic judgments of the rest of the book (cf. Dan 12:1-2; Mt 24:21-22; 2Th 2:1-12). ... the verse itself makes this a trial related to "the whole world" and uses the same μελλούσης (mellouses, about to) that in eschatological contexts elsewhere (Rev 1:19; 8:13; 10:7; 12:5; 17:8) refers to the final events preceding the parousia. ... Here the universality of the event makes an apocalyptic thrust probable. Also, the purpose is πειράσαι τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς (peirasai tous katoikountas epi tes ges, to try those who dwell on the earth). The term "earth-dwellers" (cf. Rev 6:10; 8:13; 11:10; 12:12; 13:8, 12, 14; 17:2, 8) is important in the book and always refers to the unbelievers. They are the same group referred to by "the whole world" above. Finally, in Rev 3:11 there is a connection with the second "coming" of Christ.
Footnote # 20 says (in part):
ὥρας (hour) does not refer to a period of time but to an event [the article before "hour" is what causes this meaning - Bobcat]. It is "the time when God will try" the earth.

See the links in point # 1 in this post for a discussion relating "the hour of test" to the parable of the sheep and goats, and to the survivors referred to at Zech 14:16.

As an interesting aside, the 1984 NWT had Mt 24:21 (which itself is drawn from Dan 12:1) in the reference column for Rev 3:10 and "the hour of test." But the 2013 revision has that reference removed.

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Re: The Great Tribulation of Rev 7:14

#18 Post by Stranger » 1 week ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 week ago
As an interesting aside, the 1984 NWT had Mt 24:21 (which itself is drawn from Dan 12:1) in the reference column for Rev 3:10 and "the hour of test." But the 2013 revision has that reference removed.

Hi Bobcat,

Why do you think "they" removed it? Did it become non applicable all of a sudden?

Also if you'll notice in the NWT (1984) in chapter 3 of Rev. in versus 8,9 and 12 the WT has added lines in them, I didn't look through every scripture in Rev but I did look at a bunch of them and I didn't notice the lines in any of them except these. What is the purpose of these lines?


Stranger

Bobcat
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Re: The Great Tribulation of Rev 7:14

#19 Post by Bobcat » 1 week ago

Hi Stranger,

As far as Mt 24:21 and why it was removed from the reference column in the NWT: I think the answer lies in the fact that the reference column scriptures in the original NWT was purchased. So that it contained references that weren't always in line with WT doctrine. The 2013 revised NWT reference column has been 'scrubbed' somewhat.

WT teaching says that the "hour of test" is in the time period since 1914. What WT calls "the last days." But contrast this post which uses the NT to identify "the last days" with the time period starting with Jesus' first advent (c. 29-33 CE).

Regarding the dashes in Rev 3:8, 9 & 12. As far as I can tell, they are simply literary devices in Rev 3:8 & 9. In each case the dash comes before "Look!" I'm guessing that the translators did this for effect.

Interestingly, in Rev 3:8 NET the phrase that follows the dash in the NWT is taken as a parenthetical phrase. In Rev 3:9 NET, the NET uses a dash in the same place as the NWT. Rev 3:9 ESV does also. So it appears to me that it is just being used as a literary device, much like an exclamation point might be used. Only, in this case, the dash gives a suddenness to the "Look" that follows.

In Rev 3:12 the literal phrasing would become somewhat redundant and a bit abrupt in English if rendered literally ("The one conquering I will make him ..."). My guess is that the NWT uses the dash to bring out the sudden change from "The one conquering" to "I will make him ..." The NET (Rev 3:12 NET) simply leaves "him" untranslated.

I reckon it is all part of the difficulty that goes with translating.


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Re: The Great Tribulation of Rev 7:14

#20 Post by Bobcat » 1 week ago

I added a sub-title to main article # 6, What Did This Mean For Jerusalem. I had forgot to include it when I made the post. It is towards the bottom of the post, just before the conclusion.


Bobcat

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