Personal scriptural musings on The Trinity

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Get out of her
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Re: Personal scriptural musings on The Trinity

#101 Post by Get out of her » 3 weeks ago

gogtherefore wrote:
This seems to be the case, yes. Yet my point was/is, you seem to determine that the word "archangel" describes or is only one chief prince/primary messenger.
There are more than one Chief/primary/foremost archangels (Daniel 10:13)
Yes gogtherefore. If you take a closer look at particularly the last paragraph of the post you are referring to you will find I am conceding only that Michael has been assigned as the chief angel or "foremost prince" specifically over the EARTH or "mankind." Ancient writings such as some ascribed to Enoch actually go into more detail on other angels who have relatively tremendous levels of power and authority in heaven. One by the name of Azazel was actually mentioned as among these chieftains, and in fact identified at some point as specifically the one that later became satan.

This becomes even more interesting in light of what we find at Leviticus 16:6-26. Moreover in view of what we read at Ezekiel 28:12-19, it begins to appear as if Michael was at some point chosen as a REPLACEMENT of Azazel as the "foremost prince" over the earth. This notion appears to be supported by other ancient writings as well, and in fact this includes the indication that what was in fact a TREMENDOUS level of respect for this angel on the part of ALL the others contributed greatly to his success in influencing MANY to rebel against Jehovah along with him.
Regarding the word "Christ"; it is generally accepted among believers of Jesus Christ, that Jesus is the only Christ. Followers of Jesus the Christ are commonly referred to as Christians (with an "s") or Anointeds.....with an "s". For you to state: "...the Christ is not even a PERSON or an individual in the first place.", I feel is confusing. It seems your view of the word Christ describes a collective, whereas in scripture the word Christ is reference to the one Christ/Anointed/savior/Redeemer, Jesus (THE) Christ.
Once again gogtherefore I'm afraid you are giving me credit that I cannot accept. Even if I wanted to take credit for the statements you are referring to, these are direct quotes from ones like the Apostle Paul and Peter. This is why I immediately cited these scriptures after quoting from them.

Now if basically all the ministers that are currently on the earth teach something contrary to what the Bible has to say while at the same time claiming that the Bible is their point of authority, would this not simply serve as yet another confirmation of the scriptural truth I pointed out to Johnamos yesterday? namely that a broken holy covenant quickly transforms even the true ministers of Jehovah into nothing more than "magic practicing priests."? This is regardless of their various motives, and in fact we can find this phenomenon of "double faced divination" being explicitly associated with Jehovah's own nation in accounts like Ezekiel 12 in yet another setting of a complete apostasy on the part of what now WAS Jehovah's nation. (Eze 12:21-25) What WAS God's nation in these settings of national "apostasy" is now much more like a "DAUGHTER of his people" that is born from the adulterous spiritual relations of a broken holy marriage covenant.(Jer 8:11) (Eze 23:1-4) (Isa 1:21) (Da 11:30-32) This is in fact a "daughter" which repentant ones must once again "get out from among" and in fact even "FLEE" from if they would ever even HOPE for Jehovah to once again "take them in." (2 Cor 6:17) (Re 18:4) (Mt 24:15, 16)

You see we are once again dealing with the precise definition of the word "antichrist" which literally means –counterfeit replacement spirit or anointing, and as the Apostle John explicitly states, it involves "MANY" false ministers or anointed ones. ("Christs") (Strong's #473 #5547) (1 Joh 2:18) (Da 11:31) (1 Sa 16:14) Once again just as Paul explicitly states in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, this situation or "apostasy" which was "already at work among…" also the first century manifestation of Jehovah's nation as early as around 51 or so CE is precisely what always creates the NEED for yet another foretold "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and its corresponding "day of Jehovah," or what is also referred to with terms such as a "birth of the barren woman." (Jer 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5)

In other words the "holy covenant" that this "apostasy" completely violates is precisely what always establishes the very EXISTENCE of true worship on the earth. For that very reason yet another very Christ-like ministry of "two witnesses" or prophets of Jehovah is required to renew this broken covenant just as explicitly foretold also by the Apostle John in accounts like Revelation 11:3, 7, 11, 12. This particular one is associated specifically with the rise of the sixth foretold "king" (world power) or sixth "birth of the barren woman" that would unfold during the period identified as the "gentile times" or "appointed times of the nations" prior to the Millennial Reign. (Re 9:13 11:2 17:10) (Lu 21:24) (Da 4:23, 32)

The seventh foretold ministry to "Christ's domestics" or "brothers" is prophesied in Revelation 12 and this very same "reaping" or resurrection to heaven of these "two witnesses" that ALWAYS immediately precedes a GENERAL "harvest" or even MASS spiritual "exodus" out of "what in a SPIRITUAL sense is called Sodom and Egypt" is actually foretold in the symbolic words of Revelation 14. (Re 11:8 12:1, 2, 5 14:15-20) Verse 20 in particular is confirming something that was illustrated for us also in the prophetic drama of the exodus out of ancient Egypt. This is namely the complete destruction of any and all who would continue to oppose what was once again a renewed or reborn nation of Jehovah.

It may be helpful for us to understand that the term Christ or Messiah (evidently Mishayach in ancient Hebrew) was one that the Hebrew culture was very familiar with even many centuries prior to the first century. The term was in fact often associated with the ancient priests. (Le 4:3, 5, 16) Once again the word simply means anointed, and of course this Holy Spirit was also endowed upon the prophets as well as the judges and kings. Now when one of these messiahs would become more DIRECTLY involved in assisting Jehovah with furnishing SALVATION or deliverance for people, (such as was the case with ones like Moses or Joshua), this name or even title was extended to Mishayach Yahawashi. In English this would of course be –Christ JESUS. The name Joshua in fact would have been rendered evidently as Yahawashi in ancient Hebrew and something like Yeshua in more modern Hebrew. (Once again Jesus in English)

We would all do well to understand that the people in the early part of the first century who were eagerly anticipating the coming of a messiah were actually thinking much more in terms of their NEXT foretold messiah. This is particularly important in view of the fact that everything to do with the ancient FLESHLY manifestation of Israel was designed to serve as a "typical representation and shadow…" of the things that would unfold with SPIRITUAL Israel. (He 8:5) WHO CARES about mere "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine," no matter HOW pervasive or prevalent they might be? (Mt 15:9) The SCRIPTURES make it perfectly clear that ALL of the foretold arrivals of the "two witnesses" qualify as a "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Th 2:1) This is precisely why the two witnesses whose ministries resulted in the renewing of the holy covenant in ancient Babylon were also assigned titles like the "son of man." (Eze 2:1)

With that said, NONE of this information should recognized as taking anything away from a certain uniqueness and SPECIAL honor that should rightfully be assigned to ONE of the "two witnesses" or even messiahs who appeared in the first century. The one given the name of both Immanuel and Jesus was evidently not ONLY an unusually glorious angel even BEFORE he was manifested in the flesh, but the PERFECT and by extension PRICELESS human blood that was produced by means of HIS particular priestly sacrifice enabled Jehovah to "inaugurate" or otherwise apply the atoning value of this distinct blood even retroactively to ALL the renewed holy covenants. (He 9:16-18)

The problem here is that just as "typified" with the "copper serpent" on the pole that Jehovah commanded to be "lifted up in the wilderness" to atone for yet more rebelliousness against him and deliver or save (salvation) ones from the adverse judgments that ALWAYS result from it, Satan always tries to take advantage of opportunities like this to fool people into idolatrous false worship. (Joh 3:14) (Nu 21:7-9) (2 Ki 18:4) As we can see here in 2 Kings, at some point King Hezekiah even felt compelled to destroy this ancient relic outright since too many people wanted to actually worship it. We can be certain this same tendency towards idolatrous false worship had everything to do also with how intent Satan was to get his hands on the body of the deceased Moses. (Jude 9)

Rest assured if we have already fallen into idolatrous false worship also of what was prefigured by this copper serpent, Satan could not care less about whether or not we accept the Trinity doctrine as it is explicitly rendered. He has already accomplished the goal he had with this false doctrine in the first place.

Agape love;
Sol

goghtherefore
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Re: Personal scriptural musings on The Trinity

#102 Post by goghtherefore » 3 weeks ago

Hi Get out of her

Thank you for your reply.

Re: "Jesus was evidently not ONLY an unusually glorious angel even BEFORE he was manifested in the flesh,"

So to be clear, you are teaching that the Word (Logos) was an angel (that created all things), became the archangel Michael, then Jesus Christ, then Michael again ...(not to mention Abaddon (the angel of the abyss), as well)?

Regards, goghtherefore
“This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

AmosAU
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Re: Personal scriptural musings on The Trinity

#103 Post by AmosAU » 3 weeks ago

Hi goghtherefore,

I agree with your thoughts in your last few posts.

I can no longer accept that Jesus is Michael, OR a created angel. There simp0ly isn't any real evidence for this false teaching anywhere in the scriptures.

Did he have a beginning? Possibly.

There just isn't enough concrete information about this in the bible. UNLESS it's been edited in sometime after the original autographs were composed. It must be understaood that until several centuries after the time Jesus walked the earth, it was an oral society and NOT a society that was dependant on written transmission of information. Most writings were for historical decrees and/or purchase and sales of property. Whereas, the NT was passed down orally from congregation to congregation.

This is a major reason why caution simply must be excercised when looking into many of the doctrines and teachings of (particularly) Christianity.

The doctrine of the trinity, was not even considered until the end of the second century AD. It was NEVER a part of the early disciples OR apostles teachings. This has been discussed here often in the past, yet it still rears its ugly head again and again.

There have been many, many things written into the NT by theologians, scribes and translators. Many modern translations have in fact become almost commentaries of the manuscripts used in their creation.

Regards, Amos.

johnamos2.0
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Re: Personal scriptural musings on The Trinity

#104 Post by johnamos2.0 » 3 weeks ago

I can no longer accept that Jesus is Michael, OR a created angel. There simp0ly isn't any real evidence for this false teaching anywhere in the scriptures.
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled
the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. the armies in heaven were following him on white horses,

he is called by the name The Word of God.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:

AmosAU
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Re: Personal scriptural musings on The Trinity

#105 Post by AmosAU » 3 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote: 3 weeks ago
I can no longer accept that Jesus is Michael, OR a created angel. There simp0ly isn't any real evidence for this false teaching anywhere in the scriptures.
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled
the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. the armies in heaven were following him on white horses,

he is called by the name The Word of God.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:
I've noticed lately that you are posting scriptures alone. And you also seem to have your own version of some verses and also mix verses together that aren't related.

This is quite a problem 2.0! It seems like you grasp at straws to try to bolster your own personal viewpoint.

johnamos2.0
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Re: Personal scriptural musings on The Trinity

#106 Post by johnamos2.0 » 3 weeks ago

This is quite a problem 2.0!
Where is the problem?

Apparently, you don't understand that the Scriptures speak for themself and that you should compare them with each other.

I challenge you to give me any examples of what you claim are my own versions of them and what Scriptures are not related.

AmosAU
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Re: Personal scriptural musings on The Trinity

#107 Post by AmosAU » 3 weeks ago

johnamos2.0 wrote: 3 weeks ago
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,2 who bore witness to the word of God and to ethe testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches.


Jehovah gives the revelation to his angel, Jesus. Jesus in turn is the one that presents/makes known this revelation to John. John writing/telling these things shown to him is acting as Jesus' angel/massager and witness. The angel seen at 5:2 is not relevant has to whom it is...the fact that John sees it is because of the angel (Jesus) that is showing him (John) a vision. It is this angel that is showing this to John that John falls down to worship.
By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, 11 saying: “What you see, write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations 12 I turned to see who was speaking with me, and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,+ 13 and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man,+ clothed in a garment that reached down to the feet and wearing a golden sash around his chest. + 19 So write down the things you saw, and the things that are, and the things that will take place after these.8 Well I, John, was the one hearing and seeing these things. When I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing me these things.
Please explain how you arive at Jesus being the angel in this quote from Revelation 1?

Here it is from the KJV; Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 

It's obvious that the revelation was given to Jesus, who then sent his (Jesus) angel to John. This is the accepted reading of this verse.

And again; Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. 
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 

And please give some serious thought to this next one; Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 
Jos 5:14  And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15  And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. 

My question to you, who could this commander of the army be that requied Joshua to do an act of worship by removing his sandal?

johnamos2.0
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Re: Personal scriptural musings on The Trinity

#108 Post by johnamos2.0 » 3 weeks ago

Please explain how you arive at Jesus being the angel in this quote from Revelation 1?
Rev 1:1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God (Jehovah) gave him (Jesus), to show his (Jehovah's) slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he (Jehovah) sent his (Jehovah's) angel (Jesus) and presented it in signs through him (Jesus) to his (Jehovah's) slave John, 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, yes, to all the things he (John) saw.....5 Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,”+ “the firstborn from the dead,”+ and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.”+ To him who loves us+ and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood+—

Follow along:

12 I (John) turned to see who was speaking with me, and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,+ 13 and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man,+ clothed in a garment that reached down to the feet and wearing a golden sash around his chest. 14 Moreover, his head and his hair were white as white wool, as snow, and his eyes were like a fiery flame,+ 15 and his feet were like fine copper+ when glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars,+ and out of his mouth a sharp, long, two-edged sword+ was protruding, and his countenance* was like the sun when it shines at its brightest.+ 17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First+ and the Last,+ 18 and the living one,+ and I became dead,+ but look! I am living forever and ever,+ and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.*+ 19 So write down the things you saw, and the things that are, and the things that will take place after these

That is a description of the angel that was speaking to John. Now compare:

11 I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse.+ And the one seated on it is called Faithful+ and True,+ and he judges and carries on war in righteousness.+ 12 His eyes are a fiery flame,+ and on his head are many diadems.* He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word+ of God. 14 Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword+ with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron.+ Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.+ 16 On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.+

johnamos2.0
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Re: Personal scriptural musings on The Trinity

#109 Post by johnamos2.0 » 3 weeks ago

Does that show you that Jesus is the angel that was speaking to John? I know it does not show that Jesus is Michael, and perhaps they are not the same. Let's say they are not.

This is what we got:

An angel = first creation of Jehovah's. Referred to as THE Word of God, the Lamb (who was slaughtered and with his blood bought people for God), the Christ, the Lord, the faithful witness, first born of the dead, son of man, Jesus. Is said to have a sharp sword from his mouth. His hair was white as white wool, as snow, and his eyes were like a fiery flame, and his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters. Is said to be seated on a white horse, carries on war in righteousness and the armies in heaven were following him on white horses.

An angel = Michael, said to have angels and battle with Satan in the war that broke out in heaven. Is said to be 'one of the foremost princes', an archangel.

An angel = Satan, said to have angels. Referred to as devil, serpent, dragon.


Anything else name wise or description wise that anyone could add to these 3 separate angels?

johnamos2.0
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Re: Personal scriptural musings on The Trinity

#110 Post by johnamos2.0 » 3 weeks ago

An angel = Gabriel. He was sent to Daniel to make known to him what he was seeing.

Something that Daniel saw was:
I looked up and saw a man clothed in linen,+ and around his waist was a belt of gold from Uʹphaz. 6 His body was like chrysʹo·lite,+ his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like fiery torches, his arms and his feet looked like burnished copper,+ and the sound of his words was like the sound of a multitude.
Then I, Daniel, looked and saw two others standing there, one on this bank of the stream and one on the other bank of the stream.+ 6 Then one said to the man clothed in linen,+ who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens...
Is this man/angel, Gabriel, Jesus, or Michael?

Whomever it is, the angel that said the following is not Michael because he talks about Michael. So, who said the following:
12 He then said to me: “Do not be afraid,+ O Daniel. Your words have been heard from the first day that you gave your heart to understanding and to humbling yourself before your God, and I have come because of your words.+ 13 But the prince+ of the royal realm of Persia stood in opposition to me for 21 days. But then Miʹcha·el,*+ one of the foremost princes,* came to help me; and I remained there beside the kings of Persia. 14 I have come to make you understand what will befall your people in the final part of the days,+ because it is a vision yet for the days to come.”+.......
20 Then he said: “Do you know why I have come to you? Now I will go back to fight with the prince of Persia.+ When I leave, the prince of Greece will come. 21 However, I will tell you the things recorded in the writings of truth. There is no one strongly supporting me in these things but Miʹcha·el,+ your prince.+
And is there a connection with the opposition for 21 days with the mourning Daniel did for 21 days (3 weeks)?
In those days I, Daniel, had been mourning+ for three full weeks. I ate no rich food, and no meat or wine entered my mouth, and I did not put any oil on myself for three full weeks.
But the prince+ of the royal realm of Persia stood in opposition to me for 21 days.

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