Anybody agree that Daniel 8:11 is about the WT org?

This is the place to discuss anything to do with scriptural doctrine. It is the primary purpose of this site, and most discussions will be here.
Forum rules
Matt 18:6; Eccl 7:9; 1 Pet 4:8 (If you're not sure what they say then please hover over them with your mouse or look them up in your own Bible before posting)
Message
Author
Marina
Posts: 2442
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Anybody agree that Daniel 8:11 is about the WT org?

#11 Post by Marina » 1 month ago

Hi Kosonen

Yes WT was way better than all the other 'Christian' organisations. It was outstanding at teaching the Old Testament and showing how the prophecies of the Messiah relate to Jesus Christ.

Then they slipped Jesus out of the picture and put themselves, the GB, into Jesus' position.

NIV Bible is used by other to put Lucifer in Jesus' position.

Zionism replaces Jesus with a Messianic Age. Hence it is like Communism.

WT is Communist insofar as it sets 1914 as the start date for this New Age.

WTs false doctrines can be traced back to Theosophy and it was the Theosophists who set up the Lucis (Lucifer Trust) which is represented at the UN.
Marina

Kosonen
Posts: 336
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Anybody agree that Daniel 8:11 is about the WT org?

#12 Post by Kosonen » 1 month ago

Kerry, these scriptures do not talk about Jesus' death, but about the persecution of Jesus' followers.

Some of "the army and the stars" that will fall and be trampled refer to Jesus' followers.

Daniel wanted to understand what this vision meant. So Gabriel explained the visions to Daniel. The end of the chapter, especially verses 23-25 explane what is the horn and what it will do in the final days to the "people of the Holy One''.

Kerry Huish
Posts: 337
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Anybody agree that Daniel 8:11 is about the WT org?

#13 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 month ago

Kosonen wrote:
1 month ago
Kerry, these scriptures do not talk about Jesus' death, but about the persecution of Jesus' followers.

Some of "the army and the stars" that will fall and be trampled refer to Jesus' followers.

Daniel wanted to understand what this vision meant. So Gabriel explained the visions to Daniel. The end of the chapter, especially verses 23-25 explane what is the horn and what it will do in the final days to the "people of the Holy One''.
Daniel 8:10 It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.

This causing of some of the Army and some of the Stars to fall seems be a reference to the many sons of Israel that were killed when Herod was trying to exterminate the future King of Israel. The Herod’s were a dynasty that ruled over the Jews by appointment from Rome: -

Mathew 2:16-18 Then Herod, seeing that he had been outwitted by the astrologers, flew into a great rage, and he sent out and had all the boys in Bethʹle·hem and in all its districts killed, from two years of age and under, according to the time that he had carefully ascertained from the astrologers. Then was fulfilled what was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, who said: “A voice was heard in Raʹmah, weeping and much wailing. It was Rachel weeping for her children, and she was unwilling to take comfort, because they are no more.”

Yes, some of the Army (Israel) and even some of the Sons of Judah (Stars) were made to fall to the Earth because of Herod. But Jesus, the true Son of God, the true Prince of the Army initially escaped this slaughter: -

Matthew 2:13 After they had departed, look! Jehovah’s angel appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying: “Get up, take the young child and his mother and flee to Egypt, and stay there until I give you word, for Herod is about to search for the young child to kill him.” So Joseph got up and by night took along the young child and the child’s mother and went into Egypt. He stayed there until the death of Herod. This fulfilled what was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Later, Rome would exalt over the Prince of the Army and be instrumental in his death and in removing the Constant Feature: -

Daniel 8:11 It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down.

This is also alluded to in Daniel 8:25, as is a bold statement that the King would not be broken or conquered by a human hand: -

Daniel 8:25 And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand.

Rome was never conquered by another nation.

viewtopic.php?p=47483#p47483

Kind Regards

Kerry

Kerry Huish
Posts: 337
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Anybody agree that Daniel 8:11 is about the WT org?

#14 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 month ago

Kosonen wrote:
1 month ago
Daniel wanted to understand what this vision meant. So Gabriel explained the visions to Daniel. The end of the chapter, especially verses 23-25 explane what is the horn and what it will do in the final days to the "people of the Holy One''.
Actually, this final part of the days that is mentioned, this is in relation to the last days or the final part of the days of the 4 Kings that arose from Alexanders Kingdom.

Dan 8:23 New International Version
“In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

Dan 8:23 King James Bible
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Dan 8:23 Holman Christian Standard Bible
Near the end of their kingdoms, when the rebels have reached the full measure of their sin, an insolent king, skilled in intrigue, will come to the throne.

Rome absorbed both the King of the North and King of the South.
The 4 Kingdoms that arose from Alexander, over time shrank to 2 and these final 2 were brought under control and complete dominance by Rome.

Rome then went onto stand up against the Prince of princes and throw down the sanctuary which triggered the 2300 days.

Kind Regards

Kerry

Kerry Huish
Posts: 337
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Anybody agree that Daniel 8:11 is about the WT org?

#15 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 month ago

Hi Kosonen,

If you can appreciate that the temple, its sanctuary and all its observances was but a shadow or a copy of even greater realities.
Then a greater truth becomes observable from examining accounts such as Daniel 8.

Hebrews 8:5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

Jesus clearly referred to his body as being a temple when on earth and not just 'a' temple either: -

Matthew 12:6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.

I am not saying that the vision does not have perhaps many minor fulfillments in relation to its copies or shadows, but all these minor fulfilments would just amount to chasing shadows and copies, not the real thing. Yes, the Romans did later destroy the physical temple sanctuary, that served as a mere copy, but they threw down the true spiritual sanctuary first in 33 CE when they executed Jesus.

Which one of these was raised up again in 3 days, the physical copy or the spiritual reality?

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” 20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

Kind Regards

Kerry

Kosonen
Posts: 336
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Anybody agree that Daniel 8:11 is about the WT org?

#16 Post by Kosonen » 1 month ago

Ok Kerry, I see that you have a completely different understanding of how those scriptures should be understood.
So I will not try more to convince you. But I will continue in my understanding and be looking after how those scriptures will get their fulfillment in our time.

Marina
Posts: 2442
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Anybody agree that Daniel 8:11 is about the WT org?

#17 Post by Marina » 1 month ago

Ages ago WT logo looked like White House logo used by Obama. Someone pointed this out to me - think it was before 2019.

Also Jared Kushner bought WT's old NY buildings - bit of a connection there.

WT connects to UN via some network?

WT wants to step into role of world religion for New World Order?

I don't know but I can see the possibility because WT sits alongside those with with Civil Rights agenda but with those who are so far left-wing they become the right-wing Big Brothers of 1984.
Marina

Kerry Huish
Posts: 337
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: Anybody agree that Daniel 8:11 is about the WT org?

#18 Post by Kerry Huish » 1 month ago

Kosonen wrote:
1 month ago
Ok Kerry, I see that you have a completely different understanding of how those scriptures should be understood.
So I will not try more to convince you. But I will continue in my understanding and be looking after how those scriptures will get their fulfillment in our time.
Peace be with you as you work through what are shadows and realities.

Kind Regards

Kerry

Kosonen
Posts: 336
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: Anybody agree that Daniel 8:11 is about the WT org?

#19 Post by Kosonen » 1 month ago

Yes, the WT organization has serious spiritual problems. That is why Daniel 8:12 says:"And an army was given over, together with the constant feature, because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success."

In addition in the parallel prophecy in Daniel 11:32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he (the US head of State) will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively.

It looks like the WT organization are making compromises of faith when confronted by the US State.
Examples of that could be that all bethelites in US has been vaccinated against Covid. Also a few days ago on jw.org frontpage was an article warning generally against conspiracy theories. Yes that is what the US government want.
And why has the WT requested every JW to allow them to put them into an electonic data base? About 30 ago the WT org prohibited elders to have lists of personal information of congregtion members so that authorities could not in case of persecution easily arrest them all.

Unfortunately there is so much wrong with the GB. But that in itself does not hinder scriptures to apply to them.

Marina
Posts: 2442
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: Anybody agree that Daniel 8:11 is about the WT org?

#20 Post by Marina » 1 month ago

WT is in a very curious position.

My angle on this is that they are the Knight's Templars, they are Moslem. They are also Zionists and Communists. In letter from Ray Franz, he noted the similarities to the Catholic Church.

It's the same pattern. You have what look like two sides

Crusaders v Moslem - but they were both the same.

Believers in God, who gave them Israel v atheists who connect to Israel - but they are both on the same side.
Note Communists are supposed to have a special relationship with Islam because they never fought in the Crusades.

The irony - Watchtower claim to be Jehovah's Witnesses - they most certainly are not. They are apostate to Jehovah.

Does Watchtower lead people into apostacy? Yes all the time and if... if the person is in it for the 'right' reasons (ie they are fully taken in) they believe they are doing God's will. Some see through the scam. But, they like what they can get out of the organization. These become like the Pharisees.

WT points to all the others and says 'they are fake Christians' while all the time, they, WT out-fake every other Christian denomination.
Marina

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests