“A wild beast with ten horns and seven heads.”—Revelation 13:1.

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Sevenz
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“A wild beast with ten horns and seven heads.”—Revelation 13:1.

#1 Post by Sevenz » 1 month ago

The challenge: To determine precisely how the horns are arranged.

I’m sure that many of you here are quite familiar with the 13th chapter of Revelation. The part that I would like to focus on is the first verse. Here is what the verse says according to the New World Translation (2013 Revision):
And it [the dragon] stood still on the sand of the sea. And I [John] saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten diadems, but on its heads blasphemous names.
The question I would like to pose is: How were the horns arranged?

Are you up to the challenge? Do you think the ten horns were distributed among the seven heads, with some of the heads having a single horn and other heads having two? Or do you think that John saw all ten of them protruding out of just one of the heads?

Have you found that there are other scriptures that assist or provide clues that help in determining exactly how the horns were placed? Perhaps the 17th chapter of Revelation, for example? Or maybe the book of Daniel—chapters 2, 7 and 8?

What have you learned about this from your years of Bible study? If you have arrived at what you believe to be an accurate understanding of this matter, would you kindly share it with the rest of us? Please explain the basis for your understanding, Also, please explain why having a correct understanding of this is useful.

Thanks for any input that you have to offer.

Sevenz

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Re: “A wild beast with ten horns and seven heads.”—Revelation 13:1.

#2 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

Sevenz wrote:
1 month ago
Are you up to the challenge? Do you think the ten horns were distributed among the seven heads, with some of the heads having a single horn and other heads having two? Or do you think that John saw all ten of them protruding out of just one of the heads?
Hi Sevenz,

Numbers don't lie, numbers don't always tell the truth. Are you with me so far?

Translations don't lie, translations don't always tell the truth. Have you been there and done that?

The translation you used says or leads the reader to believe that the heads all had different names of the same kind. So using that one for now, if you could figure out their names, you would have a better chance on placing the horns on the appropriate head.

A favorable translation has it with only one name for all the heads, so for now, until I know if I'm cooking with Crisco, or generic lard I will not accept the challenge.
If you care to clarify this matter first, then I would gladly accept a good challenge.


Stranger, (Rev 13:7 KJV)

Bobcat
Posts: 3454
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: “A wild beast with ten horns and seven heads.”—Revelation 13:1.

#3 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

Hi Sevenz,

I hadn't really given it much thought except for the WT artwork in the Revelation Climax book that many of us JWs had gone over 3 or 4 times. I used to conduct the Book Study in my home during those years. And by the last time I used to keep a non-WT commentary open for comparative reference for myself. (I remember some having a somewhat nervous and/or disapproving look on their faces about that.) And I grew increasingly pensive about the conclusions the WT was putting forth. I distinctly remember by the last time wanting the Book Study out of my house. But I digress . . .

The RC book has the horns distributed somewhat randomly among the seven heads, two each on three of the heads, one each on the other four. The publication takes the ten horns to be representative of all the individual nations in existence at the time of Rev 17's fulfillment. "Ten" being taken as a number meaning earthly completeness.

Much of the beast imagery in Rev 13:1-2 is drawn from Daniel 7. The one difference is that in Rev 13 it is one beast with seven heads connected to it (Rev 13:1) that are then described in terms reminiscent of Dan 7:3-6 (which has separate beasts). But, considering how the ten horns are referred to later in Revelation (Rev 17:3, 12-14, 16-17) and described as, "who have not yet received a kingdom" (Rev 17:12), this reminds me that it is alluding to the ten horns that spring up from the fourth beast in Dan 7:7, 8). (IMO, the small 11th horn that comes up among the ten horns in Daniel 7:8 would be represented by the two-horned lamb in Rev 13:11-12. This one becomes the 7th king of Rev 17:9-10. In Dan 7:11-12, 23-24, 26 this 11th horn is described as having "dominion" ["ruling authority" - NET] just like the other four beasts.)

Given that, IMO, the ten horns would more likely have been seen on this 6th head of the beast in Rev 13:1-2. But having offered that opinion, Revelation itself makes no specific mention of how the ten horns are arranged, making the arrangement of the horns a bit moot as far as understanding Revelation goes. But I definitely believe that the phrase, "who have not yet received a kingdom" makes for the allusion to the ten horns of Dan 7:7-8 rather than WT's 'earthly completeness' idea. WT's earthly completeness' idea for the ten horns falls short because if the ten horns did picture all the individual nations, then, some of them had already "received a kingdom" in past times (e.g. Egypt=Egypt, Babylon=Iraq, Persia=Iran, Greece=Greece, Rome=Italy). (I mention some of this in this thread.)

My opinion, of course. "Your mileage may vary."

Another digression: Someone told me that they mentioned on the JWTalk forum about the possibility that the ten horns were an allusion to the ten horns of Dan 7:7-8 rather than the 'earthly completeness' idea and that he received a warning from the mods for disagreeing with what "the slave" has revealed. Like Bruno has said, the place sounds like an echo chamber. But I digress . . .


Bobcat

Stranger
Posts: 2010
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Re: “A wild beast with ten horns and seven heads.”—Revelation 13:1.

#4 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 month ago
I distinctly remember by the last time wanting the Book Study out of my house. But I digress . . .

Sounds like that "Elderberry wine" was turning bitter Bobcat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpAebawrv4w



Stranger, (Hos 11:8 KJV)

Bobcat
Posts: 3454
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: “A wild beast with ten horns and seven heads.”—Revelation 13:1.

#5 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

I was in the process of finding out that 'something was rotten in Denmark.'

When I was growing up I used to have all of Elton John's vinyl records.


Bobcat

Stranger
Posts: 2010
Joined: 3 years ago

Re: “A wild beast with ten horns and seven heads.”—Revelation 13:1.

#6 Post by Stranger » 1 month ago

Bobcat wrote:
1 month ago
I was in the process of finding out that 'something was rotten in Denmark.'
At least you found out in the Den of Lions the mark of the Beast!
Bobcat wrote:
1 month ago
When I was growing up I used to have all of Elton John's vinyl records.
When did you stop growing up?


Stranger, (Ps 78:5-6)

Sevenz
Posts: 15
Joined: 2 months ago
Location: Texas

Re: “A wild beast with ten horns and seven heads.”—Revelation 13:1.

#7 Post by Sevenz » 1 month ago

Hey Stranger,
A favorable translation has it with only one name for all the heads, so for now, until I know if I'm cooking with Crisco, or generic lard I will not accept the challenge.
If you care to clarify this matter first, then I would gladly accept a good challenge.
I agree that each of the 7 heads has the same name written on them. But do you know what that "name" is? If you don't, then I'll give you a few hints.

Hint #1: "Blasphemy" is not name.
Hint #1: A name written on the head always indicates who the head's owner and god is.
Hint #2: It's the name of a an angel.

Sevenz knows the answer.

Sevenz
Posts: 15
Joined: 2 months ago
Location: Texas

Re: “A wild beast with ten horns and seven heads.”—Revelation 13:1.

#8 Post by Sevenz » 1 month ago

Correction.

Hint #1: "Blasphemy" is not name.
Hint #2: A name written on the head always indicates who the head's owner and god is.
Hint #3: It's the name of a an angel.

Sorry about that! I never claim to be perfect.

Seven

Sevenz
Posts: 15
Joined: 2 months ago
Location: Texas

Re: “A wild beast with ten horns and seven heads.”—Revelation 13:1.

#9 Post by Sevenz » 1 month ago

Hey Bobcat!

Thank you very much for replying. I see by looking at some of your other posts that you are a diligent student of the Bible and you have delved deeply into the subject that I have brought up. I commend you for the seriousness that you have exhibited. However, I do see places where you need to adjust your views, and I hope you don't mind me saying so. I honestly don't intend to offend anyone here. I'll be back later when I'm not so pinched for time.

Sevenz

Bobcat
Posts: 3454
Joined: 7 years ago

Re: “A wild beast with ten horns and seven heads.”—Revelation 13:1.

#10 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

There is an interesting footnote (# 4) on Rev 13:1 NET and the phrase, "and on its heads (plural) a blasphemous name (singular)" (Compare Rev 13:1 ESV):
sn Whether this means a single name on all seven heads or seven names, one on each head, is not clear.

tc ‡ Several mss (A 051 1611 1854 2053 2344 2351 M) read the plural ὀνόματα (onomata, “[blasphemous] names”), while the singular ὄνομα (onoma, “name”) has somewhat better support (P א C 1006 1841 2329 M). The plural reading seems motivated by the fact that what is written is written “on its heads.” In the least, it is a clarifying reading. NA puts the plural in brackets, indicating doubts as to its authenticity.

And Constable's Notes includes this comment about the blasphemous name:
The blasphemous names reflect the beast’s opposition to God (cf. Rev 13:5-6; 2 Thess. 2:4).

There is also an interesting comparison/contrast between the beast out of the sea in Rev 13:1 and the dragon in Rev 12:3. The beast has its ten diadems on its ten horns. The dragon has its seven diadems (same Greek word - here) on its seven heads.

Another interesting contrast is that the dragon has "seven heads and ten horns," whereas, the beast has "ten horns and seven heads" (reverse order). The BECNT-Revelation commentary takes this as an indication that the heads are the more prominent feature of the dragon, and the horns are the more prominent feature of the beast. It comments:
That the diadems are on the horns of the beast indicates that while the dragon is the king of the evil empire, the beast is the military arm of the king, a parody of the "seven horns" of the Lamb in Rev 5:6.

Constable's Notes similarly posited that the diadems being on the horns of the beast might possibly indicate that it expresses its authority through force.

(The scarlet beast of Rev 17:3, which is the "image" of the beast out of the sea, is described as "full of blasphemous names and has seven heads and ten horns." This reverses the order of horns and heads from the beast in Rev 13:1, despite the scarlet beast being an image of the beast. There is no mention of diadems on either its heads or horns. This might open the possibility that the horns on the beast of Rev 13:1 have a little different significance than the ten horns on the scarlet beast of Rev 17:3. If so, then, I might have to retract my comment about the horns on the sea beast in my post above. Perhaps the lack of diadems in Rev 17:3 is indicative of the ten horns having "given their power and authority" to the scarlet beast for one hour. - Rev 17:13, 17)

At any rate, I'm looking forward to seeing what you've come up with sevenz.


Bobcat

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