The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

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Bobcat
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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#11 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

Hi David,

Just a little follow on regarding Dan 7:25, 26. It occurred to me that this 3 ½ times during which the 11th horn of Dan 7 makes war with the holy ones may be the backdrop of the parable of the sheep and goats. Assuming this horn is "the false prophet"/"two-horned lamb" of Rev 16:14, 16; 13:13-18, the gathering of all the nations against "Jerusalem" (from Zech 14:1, 2) is something Jehovah says he will do.

In the parable of the sheep and goats it is Christ who says he will gather the nations, basically the same thing. But the parable has a backdrop of Jesus' disciples in sore straits, needing help. (Mt 25:35, 36, 42, 43) This might be seen as coinciding with the nations making a combined effort against "the holy ones," led, in part, by the 11th horn of Daniel 7.

I could see where it would be possible for this situation to accomplish two things: (1:) The situation might be used to cast unprepared/unproductive disciples out of the master's household (Mt 24:48-51; 25:10-13, 30). And (2:) This situation would constitute "the hour of test" (Rev 3:10) that would serve to separate people of the nations (non-Christians) into either survivors or the condemned.

As an aside, I see on exJW sites where some judge God/Christ thinking that merely one's date of birth could result in eternal destruction as a "goat" or being resurrected later on. That is, in their thinking, if one happens to die before the end (and he didn't serve God), he might be resurrected. But if one had the misfortune of being alive when the end comes (and he hasn't served God), the same lifestyle would produce eternal condemnation.

But, if the "hour of test" is as above, it would provide an opportunity for someone who wasn't a disciple to survive based on his treatment of Jesus' disciples during the 3 ½ times of the nations making war against "the holy ones." And it would eliminate the idea that God and Christ would decide someone's eternal fate based merely on when they happened to be born.

For reference: Links to various aspects of the sheep & goats parable here.


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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#12 Post by Stranger » 4 months ago

Bobcat wrote:
4 months ago
It occurred to me that this 3 ½ times during which the 11th horn of Dan 7 makes war with the holy ones may be the backdrop of the parable of the sheep and goats.
Hi Bobcat,

How do we know for sure that the times in time, times and a half time is actually two?



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Bobcat
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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#13 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

Hi Stranger,

I haven't forgot about your question. An answer is coming.


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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#14 Post by Stranger » 4 months ago

Take your time Bobcat, I know that's a tough one.


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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#15 Post by Stranger » 4 months ago

Stranger wrote:
4 months ago
Hi Bobcat,

How do we know for sure that the times in time, times and a half time is actually two?

Another question that came to mind is: Are we to automatically assume that these terms run consecutively?





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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#16 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

Hi Stranger,

To make it easier on the eyes, I've broken the post into sub sections:


How Much Is "Time, Times, and Half a Time"?

Concerning the phrase, "a time, times, and half a time" (Dan 7:25; 12:7), you wanted to know how one can be sure that "times" equals two times (and not any other number of them). And you asked how we would know that the "time, times, and half a time" would run consecutively (that is, as a whole 3 ½ "times" I presume).

Probably the great majority of Bible reference works understand this phrase as meaning 3 ½ times (that is, 3 ½ years). Many of them (including various ones who post on this site) have various interpretations as to whether these 3 ½ times are prophetic for years, where each day of the 3 ½ year period equals a year in time. Using a 30 day Hebrew calendar month, 3 ½ times/years would equal 1260 days. And thus, if one views them as "a day for a year," one would get 1260 years.

If the 7 times of Dan 4:16, 23, 25 are 7 years, this also would lend credence to the 3 ½ times being half of that. And one can also go to Revelation chapters 11 thru 13 and find 3 ½ times being equated with 1260 days and 42 months. That also is seen by various reference works as confirming the 3 ½ times being equated with 3 ½ years. (On the "seven times" of Dan 4, see under the sub-title, Let Seven Times Pass Over It in this post.)

With that said, I think you should know that this thread is somewhat of an exploratory thread and a container for whatever I might find in connection with the thread's title.


1290, 1335, and 2300 Days in the Jewish-Roman War of 66-73 CE

Some time back I had discovered that the 3 ½ times of Dan 12:7, and the 2300 evenings and mornings of Dan 8:13-14, and the 1290 & 1335 periods of days in Dan 12:11-12 literally fit certain parts of the Jewish-Roman War of 66-73 CE (and a period of time starting prior to that war in the case of the 3 ½ times of Dan 12:7. In this post I try to chart out how those periods of time fit into the Jewish-Roman War time period. And in this post, items # 6 thru 8 have links to discussions of what I found in connection with those time periods and the 66-73 CE war.

In the case of the 2300, 1290, & 1335 days I found that they could fit significant periods of that war when one took them as literal days. The starting point for all three periods was the event Jesus foretold in Mt 24:15. This can be dated to about Nov 14/15, 66 CE. This is historically the date Cestius Gallus inexplicably pulled back from his assault on the Temple.

Counting from this date in days, 1290 takes one to mid-June 70 CE which is when the Romans renewed their assault on the Temple. 45 days later (1290 + 45 = 1335) the Temple was demolished (a date the Jews still commemorate today - July 29/30). 2300 days after Nov 14/15, 66 CE brings one to Apr 8th, 73 CE, almost to the day that the Romans overran Masada and ended the Jewish War. (Once inside they found all but 2 women and five children dead from suicide.)


The 3 ½ Times of Daniel 12:7 in the Jewish-Roman War of 66-73 CE

In the case of the 3 ½ times of Dan 12:7, the time period fits quite closely with the persecution of Nero against Christians which started after the great fire in Rome in July of 64 CE.

The problem with that period of persecution is the fact that Nero had become so monstrous in his dealings with others towards the end of his reign that he killed off the very people that could have provided a first hand account of the history of Nero's time. All the history of Nero that is extant is second hand or after the fact. Even so, there is much about his history that is quite sure. The fire in Rome is quite settled (July 64 CE). And Nero's death is most likely June 68 CE (some have July). This leaves a period of 47 months within which to fit the 3 ½ times (or 42 months) of Dan 12:7. (On Nero's persecution see here and here.)

When Nero died in June of 68 CE the Great Roman Civil War of 68-69 CE broke out. (I discuss that in the link in point # 9 in this post.

The problem I have with the 42 months of Neronian persecution is that there is (so far) no definite and clear start date for it. The limited historical research I could find says that about a month after the fire Nero had a few Christians rounded up and tortured for additional names of Christians. And the persecution spread like that. In time, other provinces also took up the persecution so that it became largely empire wide. But it is difficult to put a definite start date to it (at least with the references available to me).

The end date of the 42 months is also problematic. Nero's time of death is quite sure. But several months before his death his reign became troubled. He saw the civil war coming and had started to make plans to move his throne to Alexandria, Egypt. But before he could carry out any of that the Senate declared him an enemy of the state and he fled, only to end up committing suicide. (Dan 11:45b) So it is possible to see the 42 months of persecution coming to an end before he actually died. (Compare also Dan 12:7 ESV with Dan 12:7 NET. The different renderings leave open the idea that his actual death date may not be the significant ending of the persecution.) The best I can say right now is that the 3 ½ times is a very close approximation. ("Good enough for government work." :D ) It fits within the great fire of Rome and Nero's death. But there is a little room for the beginning and end to be shifted back or forth - a little.

At any rate, it was all that research that has given me the feeling/hunch (if you will) that the 3 ½ times of Dan 7:25 is also meant to be a literal 42 months (or possibly a close amount of time to that so that 3 ½ times is seen as a close approximation or round number).


The Future and the 3 ½ Times of Daniel 7:25

So this is what has given me some confidence about Dan 7:25. That and the fact that there are such close parallels in the events of the 1st century and Rev 16:16-21 as the chart in one of the links above shows. But I do understand that 'your mileage (and that of others) may vary.'

I take the little horn of Dan 7 to be the Anglo-American world power. Some have different views on that. But at this time I am holding to that. The 3 ½ times during which he wars against the holy ones appears to me to be the last 3 ½ years of his being the preeminent world power. And so the recent unsettled nature of politics in the USA has made for some interest in this, for me at least.

If the parallel with Nero's time holds (at least in general terms) I would expect some of this persecution to be before the coming "great earthquake" (of Rev 16:18). And some to extend into that event (Rev 16:16 is before; Rev 16:19a is after it starts).

The part of the Jewish-Roman War (Lu 21:25, 26) that parallels the 'falling of the cities of the nations' in Rev 16:19 (the middle part) is when Rome nearly was broken up as an empire. So for the moment, the middle part of Rev 16:19 is when I am expecting the 7th world powers' rulership to be taken away. It doesn't cease to exist at that time. (Compare Rev 19:20) Rather, it loses its leadership position in some definite way, causing the "10 horns" to seek another power to invest in, in the then ongoing catastrophe. (Rev 17:16) They, along with the scarlet beast (the then new 8th king) see Babylon the Great as somehow responsible and are moved to "hate the harlot" and take action. (Rev 17:17; If the "10 horns" is an allusion to the 10 horns of Daniel 7, which I believe it is, then they are mostly of European descent. These comprise the 7th world power's closest allies. They make up the bulk of NATO. In recent years there has been some rift between them. So these developments are interesting to watch in connection with the above. But I can't see where the 3 ½ years/times of persecution on the part of the 7th world power of Christians can be said to have started yet. So I keep watching for how things may develop.)


The Future and the 1290, 1335, & 2300 Days

In connection with the other time periods in Daniel (2300 & 1290 & 1335 days) my gut is telling me that they also have some similar application in the time ahead. But exactly how is hard to pinpoint yet. In the 1st century they all had their starting period at Mt 24:15. Revelation's parallel to Mt 24:15 is Rev 16:16. It remains to be seen how that will pan out. But the nations are gathered to Armageddon before the 7th bowl is poured out. And the "mountain of Megiddo" would figuratively put the location in a threatening position with regard to God's people, not Babylon the Great. Thus, there is a possible symbolic link between the Rev 16:16 and the 11th horn of Dan chapter 7 (which I take to be the same as the "False Prophet" of Rev 16:14; 19:20) 'warring against the holy ones for 3 ½ times.' (On the term "Armageddon, see this post. On the identity of the "great city of Rev 19:16a see this thread.)

At any rate, this is how my understanding of this seems to be forming. But I'm still on the watch for further developments and what further research will show.

Sorry for the length of this post. Originally I did not intend for it to be this long.


Bobcat

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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#17 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

I have added a little bit to the previous post Stranger. Again, apologies for the length of it.


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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#18 Post by Stranger » 4 months ago

Bobcat wrote:
4 months ago
If the parallel with Nero's time holds (at least in general terms) I would expect some of this persecution to be before the coming "great earthquake" (of Rev 16:18). And some to extend into that event (Rev 16:16 is before; Rev 16:19a is after it starts).
Bobcat wrote:
4 months ago
But there is a little room for the beginning and end to be shifted back or forth - a little.

Nice work Bobcat, you have even considered and employed measures for seismic hazards, you would make a great engineer if you are not already. WTG!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seismic_hazard



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Dajo1
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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#19 Post by Dajo1 » 4 months ago

That reminded me of these.

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. (Joel 3:16)

For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land. And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts. (Haggai 2:6-7)

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (Matthew 24:29)

And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (Mark 13:25)

Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things, which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (Luke 21:26)

Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. (Hebrews 12:26)

If you have been in an earthquake, many of us here have, the most disconcerting thing is
1. You do not know if it will get stronger.

2. You do not know how long it will go on for.

The only certain thing is you are still breathing.

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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#20 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

Referencing an article that may be related to this thread: Here.

There is nothing particularly groundbreaking in the article, but it may be part of a trend. So it seemed worth cataloging it.

Here is another article from NPR news. This one shows how other issues have been shoving religious freedom aside in the USA.


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