The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

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Bobcat
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The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#1 Post by Bobcat » 9 months ago

This post/thread is admittedly a bit speculative. I wanted to say that from the get-go.

This opening post is specifically related to Daniel 7:25-26. But for reference I will reproduce all the verses in Daniel chapter 7 related to the 11th horn that is seen on the back of the fourth beast:
8 “As I was contemplating the [ten] horns, another horn – a small one – came up between them, and three of the former horns were torn out by the roots to make room for it. This horn had eyes resembling human eyes and a mouth speaking arrogant things. . .

11 “Then I kept on watching because of the arrogant words of the horn that was speaking. I was watching until the beast was killed and its body destroyed and thrown into the flaming fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their ruling authority had already been removed, though they were permitted to go on living for a time and a season. . .

15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed, and the visions of my mind were alarming me. 16 I approached one of those standing nearby and asked him about the meaning of all this. So he spoke with me and revealed to me the interpretation of the vision: 17 ‘These large beasts, which are four in number, represent four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 The holy ones of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will take possession of the kingdom forever and ever.’


An Angel Interprets Daniel’s Vision

19 “Then I wanted to know the meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others. It was very dreadful, with two rows of iron teeth and bronze claws, and it devoured, crushed, and trampled anything that was left with its feet. 20 I also wanted to know the meaning of the ten horns on its head, and of that other [11th] horn which came up and before which three others fell. This was the horn that had eyes and a mouth speaking arrogant things, whose appearance was more formidable than the others. 21 While I was watching, that horn began to wage war against the holy ones and was defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days arrived and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Most High. Then the time came for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom.

23 “This is what he told me: ‘The fourth beast means that there will be a fourth kingdom on earth that will differ from all the other kingdoms. It will devour all the earth and will trample and crush it. 24 The ten horns mean that ten kings will arise from that kingdom. Another king will arise after them, but he will be different from the earlier ones. He will humiliate three kings. 25 He will speak words against the Most High. He will harass the holy ones of the Most High continually. His intention will be to change times established by law. They will be delivered into his hand For a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene, and his ruling authority will be removed – destroyed and abolished forever! 27 Then the kingdom, authority, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be delivered to the people of the holy ones of the Most High. His kingdom is an eternal kingdom; all authorities will serve him and obey him.’ (Dan 7:8, 11-12, 15-27 NET; Other renderings here)

The topic of this thread isn't about every aspect of the "little horn." Rather, my main focus is on Dan 7:25-26. Even so, I quoted all the verses relevant to the "little horn" for some context.

I should also point out that this thread includes some assumptions that not everyone may agree with. These include:
1. That the fourth beast in Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire. (Dan 7:7-7, 23; See also here. On Dan 7:7 and Rome being "different" from previous world powers, see here.)

2. That the 10 horns are lesser kingdoms that arose from the Roman Empire in the centuries that followed. (Dan 7:24)

3. That the 'little horn' is the British Empire which eventually merged with the USA to form the 2-horned lamb of Rev 13:11-18.

4. The "holy ones" mentioned, being in and after the fourth beast would be Christian, not simply natural Jews (although some Christians are natural Jews).

Regarding the "little horn," the prophecy describes it as 'harassing . . . continually' the "holy ones." The word for "harass ... continually" (Dan 7:25 NET) is an Aramaic hapax. Regarding it, the NET's footnote (# 53 at Dan 7:25; here) says:
tn Aram “wear out” (so KJV, ASV, NRSV); NASB, NLT “wear down.”) The word is a hapax legomenon in biblical Aramaic, but in biblical Hebrew it especially refers to wearing out such things as garments. Here it is translated “harass…continually.”

According to the prophecy, this 'continual harassment' of the holy ones appears to be the regular relationship between the "little horn" and the "holy ones." This might seem odd since the Anglo-American Empire in modern times is generally well known for its religious tolerance. Additionally, Christendom was very much a part of the background during the formation of this empire. (Compare here.) England, some time back, was known for its religious intolerance. That is, any belief system outside of the established church (i.e. Church of England) was 'harassed' (if not openly persecuted). This led to people fleeing to the new world for some semblance of religious freedom.

By the same token, religious views outside of the established church in the US have not always been viewed in a tolerable manner either. (Compare here.) This has changed or moderated some in more recent times as western society has become more and more secular in its mindset.

Another factor that may possibly be included in the 'continual harassment' (or "wearing down/out") of Dan 7:25 is the overbearing materialistic/economic nature of the Anglo-American Empire. The pressure involved in this is described in Rev 13:16, 17, 18 (assuming, of course, that one sees a relationship between Rev 13:16, 17, 18 and Dan 7:25a). The description in Rev 13:16, 17, 18 presents the situation as something very detrimental to true Christianity. (Compare Rev 14:9-12; 20:4) And the situation in Rev 13:16-18 is economic in nature. Making a living without becoming absorbed into the economic system seems to be the gist of the problem that Christians would face.

I am presenting this part so far for context. My real focus for this post is Dan 7:25b. The last part of Dan 7:25 describes the "holy ones" being "delivered" into the hand of the little horn for 3 ½ times. At the end of those times the Divine "court" 'removes the ruling authority' of the little horn with the intention of destroying him and giving the everlasting kingdom to the holy ones. (Dan 7:26, 27)

Thus, what I am seeing is that this 3 ½ times is not parallel with the 'continual harassment.' But rather, the 3 ½ times is describing the final 3 ½ "times" of the "ruling authority" of the little horn. If so, it would appear to be saying that the ruling power represented (originally) by the "little horn" takes on a much more radical position towards/against Christianity during this last 3 ½ (year?) period.

What makes this all the more interesting is the political climate in the USA at this time (September 2020). Political views in the country are becoming more and more polarized and extremist as a presidential election looms in the next couple of months. Both main political parties seem to be taking the view that their position is more important than US Constitutional Laws (that include religious protections). (Incidentally, I am not implying any relation between "US Constitutional Law" and the "times and law" of Dan 7:25.) For example (and not to take either side in the political controversy):





So I am just putting this out there for thought. I didn't want to prophecy anything specific. But, depending on how one understands Dan 7 and Rev 13, there appears to be some interesting possibilities as the near future moves ever closer.

Daniel 7:26 has the Divine court removing the little horn's "ruling authority" prior to, and for the purpose of, it's being destroyed. Related to that is Rev 17:12, 13, 17 which has God putting into the hearts of the ten horns to give their "ruling power" to the scarlet beast which is described as being an 8th king and only ruling for "one hour" until it itself "goes off into destruction." (Rev 17:11) And thus, if Anglo-America is the 7th, then the 8th would be his brief replacement. It might also indicate that the removal of the 7th's "ruling authority" by God (a la Dan 7:26) is closely related to God's putting "his thought" into the "ten horns" for the purpose of having them 'give their ruling authority to the scarlet beast for one hour. (Rev 17:17)

Another point of comparison is with Rev 16:16. This has the "false prophet" (the same as the 2-horned lamb) putting forth propaganda to gather "the kings and their armies" to the place that is called in Hebrew Armageddon. This gathering is accomplished during the 6th bowl, with the 7th bowl describing the "great earthquake." (See this thread on the term "Armageddon." And this thread on the "great city" of Rev 16:19.)

I may post more on this thread, but I wanted to put this much out there for now.


Hope everyone is hanging on during the pandemic and upheaval of our times.


Bobcat

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Kosonen
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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#2 Post by Kosonen » 9 months ago

Bobcat: If so, it would appear to be saying that the little horn takes on a much more radical position towards/against Christianity during this last 3 ½ (year?) period.

Yes, that's right.

Kosonen
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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#3 Post by Kosonen » 9 months ago

Bobcat: And the situation in Rev 13:16-18 is economic in nature. Making a living without becoming absorbed into the economic system seems to be the gist of the problem that Christians would face.

Yes, that's it.

Bobcat
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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#4 Post by Bobcat » 9 months ago

A page from the Washington Post that explores the chaotic possibilities the coming presidential election in November 2020 holds: Here.

What those possibilities might hold for Christianity are what I was alluding to in the OP. In Rome in AD 64 the fire that destroyed the city set in motion terrible persecution of Christians. Previously, Christians were mostly indirect targets, seen by Rome as an offshoot of Judaism.


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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#6 Post by Bobcat » 9 months ago

At the bottom of this post are links to other posts and threads I have made regarding the book of Daniel. This thread is linked there also. (Cross-linking for ease of reference.)

The linked post itself shows the chiastic structure of the book of Daniel


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SloanePeterson
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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#7 Post by SloanePeterson » 4 months ago

Interestingly there are only two Daniel prophecies which have repeated descriptions in them and Daniel 7:7-8 and Daniel 7:23-26 is one of them; also present in Daniel 4:10-17 and Daniel 4:20-25, imo, because they have two applications, the historic pattern and that for future "scarlet wild beast" world government "8th King" parallel.
Daniel 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
Since the beasts first mentioned are all saved in Daniel 7:12 "lengthening of life given" (like with the Daniel 4 preserved "rootstock"), for the "time" of the 1260 days and the "season" of Christ's millennial reign into all eternity, the final fourth beast meaning of Daniel 7:11 and Daniel 7:26 are that of the singular described sole destroyed beast parallel of Revelation 19:19-21's "lake of fire" conquest of Christ in the future, imo.

Daniel 7:11 and Daniel 7:26 shows only the fourth beast is "given to the fire". Daniel 7:12 shows the rest of the beasts are preserved in that same segway of Christ's conquest and selective destruction of the one rival sovereign enemy "beast". Obviously, the Roman beast of Daniel 7:7-8 was not the final application of that destruction, for it still exists as a people and nation. (Imo, Russia, China, and the middle east will all fall to 8th King power; but no matter who you apply it to "all the nations" are "gathered" into globalized world government anyway, the whole nation-state system "old world order" will fall for the future finality of application.)

But, only "fourth beast" 8th King world government is what will be terminated forever in this speculation as the nations are delivered by Christ in that hopeful future process. (Matt25:31-40; Rev14:14-16)

So, post-1260 days Daniel 7:26 is the post-1260 days (Dan12:7) Daniel 12:11 1290 days parallel period of that final "8th King" "placed" rival phase, in this speculation.

Bobcat
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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#8 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

On an exJW board that is not so into Biblical discussions (anymore - they used to be), they have an ongoing discussion about what appears to be some loss of freedom of speech as it used to be enjoyed in the USA.

Keeping this post in line with the intent of the thread (the 3 ½ times of Dan 7:25, 26), I personally wouldn't equate some tightening up in that area to necessarily be the same as 'waging war against the holy ones and defeating them.' (Dan 7:21) Nor am I sure about whether the censorship that some posters on the board is claiming is all that real, or just the imaginings of the far right in the USA. But I wanted to post this for possible reference and cataloging. (Jan 31, 2021) We'll see as things develop.


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Dajo1
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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#9 Post by Dajo1 » 4 months ago

I get from this that “something” will cause a critical collapse of the 7th king or world power.
This would need to happen for the 8th to get its one hour.

Bobcat
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Re: The Little Horn of Dan 7:25, 26 & the 3 ½ Times

#10 Post by Bobcat » 4 months ago

Hi Dajo1,

Regarding a possible "critical collapse":

It says in Dan 7:21-22 that he 'makes war with the saints and was prevailing against them' when 'the Ancient of Days renders judgement in favor of the saints.'

Then, in explaining that, Dan 7:25-26 says 'the saints will be delivered into his hand for 3 ½ times, the court convenes, and his ruling authority is removed.'

The NWT at Dan 7:26 says something like, "they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely." This rendering suggests that the removal of his rulership comes before he is destroyed. (A point that a CO once got quite angry with me over. The WT says that the 7th remains a world power until he is destroyed, regardless of what the NWT says at Dan 7:26. Go figure. :shrug: )

I'm of the opinion (at the moment - but still analyzing), but I am currently of the opinion that this happens after the start of the great earthquake, but before the destruction of Babylon the Great. (Rev 16:18, 19) That would be about the time that God puts into the ten horns to give their power and authority to the scarlet beast. (Rev 17:16:17)

More precisely, the 7th world power (as the false prophet) has a major role in the gathering of the kings and their armies to Armageddon. (Rev 16:14, 16) And the opening of the great earthquake features a major attack on all of professed Christianity. (Rev 16:19a; Zech 14:1, 2; See also this thread and particularly this post. And see also par. 12 and footnote in this post.) The next part, 'the falling of the cities of the nations' (Rev 16:19b) this is the point at which I would place the removal of the 7th's ruling authority. (This is where I am at on this at the moment.)

The next event in Rev 16:19 is the destruction of Babylon the Great. Supposing (just supposing), if BtG is involved in some way in the middle part of Rev 16:19 and the 7th loses his ruling authority during that time, his allies (the 10 horns from Dan 7 - mostly European and European extracts) would be motivated to regroup under another authority (the scarlet beast) and have good reason to "hate the harlot.

The 7th, as a former world power, would not have been destroyed in Rev 16:19 since he later goes down in the "war" at Rev 19:19, 20) The rest of opposing mankind, with their governments and armies decimated, go down in Rev 19:21. These things correspond with Rev 16:20, 21. (mountains and islands, then hailstorm - compare also Rev 6:14, 15-17)

Compare this chart and how Mt 24:29 & Lu 21:25, 26 correspond with the middle part of Rev 19:19. In Matt/Luke this was the Great Roman Civil War of 68-69 CE. The Roman Empire nearly collapsed into several separate smaller empires. (Rev 13:3) This happened at the end of 3 ½ times of heavy persecution by Nero. (Dan 12:7 and this post) I'm definitely not saying that the 7th world power is the king of the north. But there is an interesting correspondence between 1st century events and Rev 16:19. The Roman Civil War happened in the middle of the Jewish-Roman War. (This is where Vespasian left the Jewish War to his son Titus.) And the 'falling of the cities' in Rev 16:19 (Rev 16:19b in the chart) is some ways into the "great earthquake" of Rev 16:18-21. (You might also find this post of interest in connection with all this. And post # 87 just a couple of posts beneath this one.)

Anyways, that is where I am at at the moment. A lot of previous research has gone into getting to this point. But I'm still looking for additional clues.


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