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John 10:16

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:41 pm
by Get out of her
John S wrote:
Most certainly beyond any doubt John 10:16 applies to the Samaritans and the Gentiles being brought into the fold along with Jewish Christians.
Bobcat replies:
Agreed John. In fact, that post was right on the heels of a w10 3/15 study articles about Jn 10. I remember the frustration of their twisted reasoning.

I don't think it would bother me so much now. I've studied the passage and reached my own conclusions (much the same as your conclusions). So having reached what I view as a sound conclusion to the passage, WT's views are little more than their own opinions now. But back then, just coming awake, it was a bit different reaction.
These comments were somewhat off topic for the thread that they were posted on and I could not find one that focuses on this scripture here in John; so particularly since I recognize John 10:16 as among the most important ones for us to understand at this point in time, I thought I would initiate a new thread on it.

I'm endeavoring to be mindful (Bobcat) of the suggestion you made to me recently about making my posts more conducive to open discussion. That may very well be good advice for me even if I'm not sure exactly how to go about taking it. So I thought I might begin by encouraging or inviting yourself and John S to actually put some effort into establishing this position of yours scripturally as opposed to simply stating it as such (and even rather dogmatically on John's part at least) if you wouldn't mind.

Of course I don't mean to exclude anyone else from sharing in the discussion if they would like. Perhaps it might make things easier if I were to start by posing the following questions, and if you have any more suggestions on how I might better encourage more discussion please don't hesitate to further elaborate:


How would you even go about defining a term like "Jewish Christians" from a scriptural standpoint, and what exactly would distinguish them from Samaritans and gentiles?

Since we are clearly dealing with the New Testament here in John 10:16 and its corresponding spiritual manifestation of what initially qualified as a "typical representation and shadow of the heavenly things," what exactly are you referring to when you use terms such as Samaritans or gentiles? (He 8:5 9:23)

In other words, how would you go about scripturally establishing the identity of a SPIRITUAL Samaritan or gentile, and its distinction from a spiritual Jew or Christian? (Or even "Jewish Christian"?) Moreover are you suggesting that Samaritans and gentiles are the same thing? If you are suggesting Samaritans and gentiles are NOT the same thing, how would you endeavor to delineate the difference between the two?

Agape love;
Sol

Re: John 10:16

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:06 am
by Bobcat
Hi Sol,

First, for reference for anyone else who might be reading or participating, this post and the next one are the posts you referred to.

Since it was John S who specifically mentioned "Samaritans and the Gentiles . . . along with Jewish Christians," I will let him say what he specifically had in mind.

You said/asked:
how would you go about scripturally establishing the identity of a SPIRITUAL Samaritan or gentile, and its distinction from a spiritual Jew or Christian? (Or even "Jewish Christian"?) Moreover are you suggesting that Samaritans and gentiles are the same thing? If you are suggesting Samaritans and gentiles are NOT the same thing, how would you endeavor to delineate the difference between the two?

Myself, I wouldn't (i.e. I wouldn't 'establish the identity of a SPIRITUAL Samaritan or gentile, and its distinction from a spiritual Jew or Christian,' that is, in connection with John 10.)

Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles were various groups of people that were distinguished from each other in the gospel accounts. I see no need to 'spiritualize' them, especially in the context of John chapter 10. Paul later 'spiritualizes' "a Jew." (Romans chapter 2) But if you try to apply that later 'spiritualization' to the peoples Jesus had in mind in John 10, in my opinion, you will only confuse yourself. (My opinion, of course.)

Samaritans and gentiles were seen in the gospel accounts as separate peoples, yet, they were both seen as non-Jews by Jews. (See here.)

I have a hunch that how you take John 10 is quite a bit different from how John and myself take it. But at any rate, I look forward to seeing what you have to say about it.


Bobcat

Re: John 10:16

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:45 pm
by Get out of her
John S? Are you there? Do you wish to offer any additional input on this topic before I proceed?

I hope you can appreciate i'm not out to attack or humiliate anyone here. These are SCRIPTURAL topics we are considering, and that of course means that an accurate knowledge of them can mean the difference between life and death. This is not life and death only for ourselves, but in our case others as well since the anointed are supposed to be ministers of God's word. Shouldn't we be willing to do all we can to better our understanding of it? (Joh 17:3)

Agape love;
Sol

Re: John 10:16

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:42 pm
by Dajo1
I like your new, easier to read style Sol!

Re: John 10:16

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:29 pm
by Get out of her
I'm really happy to hear that David, but i'm afraid its still merely a work in progress. I want to thank Bobcat for reminding me to work on this yet again and as always if you have any specific suggestions on how I can continue to simplify things please don't hesitate and I will do what I can.

Agape love;
Sol

Re: John 10:16

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:31 pm
by Get out of her
Well it looks like I only have Bobcat to pick on for now. lol

Bobcat wrote:
Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles were various groups of people that were distinguished from each other in the gospel accounts. I see no need to 'spiritualize' them, especially in the context of John chapter 10. Paul later 'spiritualizes' "a Jew." (Romans chapter 2) But if you try to apply that later 'spiritualization' to the peoples Jesus had in mind in John 10, in my opinion, you will only confuse yourself. (My opinion, of course.)
The "Oholobah" entity had a prophetic/symbolic meaning or significance for "the good things to come," but the "Oholah" did not? (Ez 23:4) (He 10:1) The two tribe kingdom of ancient Judah qualified as a prophetic picture of the "kingdom of the son of his love," but the ten tribe kingdom of Israel had no place in this "typical representation"? (Col 1:13) (He 8:5)

Respectfully, it would seem to me that to take it upon ourselves to begin picking and choosing what portions of the Old Testament qualified as a prophetic picture or "shadow of the good things to come" with SPIRITUAL Israel would be to embark on a rather slippery slope. Once we start down this path, where exactly does it end?

There are seemingly countless scriptural passages that help us to understand that essentially EVERYTHING ABOUT the Old Testament was designed to serve in an illustrative manner to point to events that would begin unfolding in the first century with the emergence of Christianity. Ones like the Apostle Paul pointed out that "ALL" these recorded events were designed to help us better grasp the true significance or deeper meanings involved with the foretold "births," "comings," or even "productions of fruit" of the theocratic nation that would begin to appear at that time. (Ro 15:4) (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) (Isa 66:7, 8) (Lu 13:6-9) (Ge 41:22-24)

The more time and effort we expend on earnest and prayerful study of the Bible, the more we will begin to appreciate the truth of the words of the ancient Joseph found at Genesis 40:8, namely that …"interpretations (of holy text) belong to God." In other words there is actually NO NEED for ANY of us to EVER offer our own personal opinions on ANYTHING to do with the scriptures. This is because not only are the meanings of these prophetic dramas eventually or ultimately spelled out for us at some point or other in these very same scriptures, but just as Genesis 40:8 brings out, we don't even have the AUTHORITY to perform any interpretation of them in the first place.

So really the question here would be the only one that we should EVER be asking when it comes to things like --what exactly was being conveyed to us with the divisions or distinctions that were delineated for us between the ancient fleshly Jews, Samaritans, and gentiles? This would be-- what do the SCRIPTURES point to as the deeper meanings or symbolic significance of these terms, and exactly how they would relate and factor in to the reality or "substance" that they were used to illustrate or typify in the first place? (He 10:1) More specifically however, (since we are focusing on John 10:16 at the moment), would an analysis of these meanings actually clear up any confusion in connection with John 10:16?


Would anyone at this time like to offer some scriptures and perhaps their references that point to the symbolic/prophetic significance of ancient Judea and Samaria (or "Oholibah" and "Oholah"), and what exactly would distinguish them from each other?

Agape love;
Sol

Re: John 10:16

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:16 am
by Stranger
Get out of her wrote:
8 months ago
Would anyone at this time like to offer some scriptures and perhaps their references that point to the symbolic/prophetic significance of ancient Judea and Samaria (or "Oholibah" and "Oholah"), and what exactly would distinguish them from each other?

Hi Sol,


Oholah is older than Oholibah, it could be and probably is symbolic references to the old great whore and the modern day great whore. If you notice in the scriptures everything said about and to Oholah (Ezk 23:5-21) is in the past tense sense. And everything said to Oholibah (Ezk 23:22-35) is in the coming to pass sense.

Get out of her wrote:
8 months ago
The "Oholobah" entity had a prophetic/symbolic meaning or significance for "the good things to come," but the "Oholah" did not? (Ez 23:4)
Sol I think you meant to put (Ezk 23:4) instead of (Ez 23:4) is that correct?



Stranger, trying to get back to the Gospel (Ezk 16:2)!

Re: John 10:16

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:50 am
by Bobcat
Hi Stranger,
Stranger, trying to get back to the Gospel (Ezk 16:2)!

Me thinks ol' Sol is running his digital bait-n-switch scheme again. I (foolishly) answer his inquiry about John 10:16 and his response is to chide me about . . . the Oholobah entity ???????? (I should've taken a hint from John S. He knew to stay out of this thread. :doh: )

And then I remember, . . . oh yea . . . this is the same guy who equated Nebuchadrezzar with Peter (here).

OK, Sol, I admit it. Whatever it is that you are smoking is way higher quality than anything I ever smoked. :bow:


Bobcat, the Elvis entity, who has now left this thread, the building entity (Ezek 11:23)

Re: John 10:16

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:53 pm
by Stranger
Bobcat wrote:
8 months ago
Me thinks ol' Sol is running his digital bait-n-switch scheme again. I (foolishly) answer his inquiry about John 10:16 and his response is to chide me about .
Hi Bobcat,

Bait-n- switch is one way to put it, "Monroe's motivated sequence" is another: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe%27 ... d_sequence
Bobcat wrote:
8 months ago
OK, Sol, I admit it. Whatever it is that you are smoking is way higher quality than anything I ever smoked.
:lol:

Bobcat wrote:
8 months ago
Bobcat, the Elvis entity, who has now left this thread, the building entity (Ezek 11:23)
(1Thess 2:17 KJV)


Stranger

Re: John 10:16

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:48 pm
by Bruno
Bobcat wrote:
8 months ago

OK, Sol, I admit it. Whatever it is that you are smoking is way higher quality than anything I ever smoked. :bow:

Here's one I smoked earlier

Image