John 10:16

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Get out of her
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Re: John 10:16

#51 Post by Get out of her » 5 months ago

Yes that would be correct Bobcat and thank you so much for verifying that beforehand.

Agape love;
Sol

Get out of her
Posts: 883
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#52 Post by Get out of her » 5 months ago

The next scriptural term found here in Mathew 24:45-47 that I want to focus on for a moment is this wording of --"faithful and discreet." This is because when we do so our attention should immediately be drawn towards reference scriptures such as found in the very next chapter of Matthew. Here in this same pre-kingdom setting we find these same people ("faithful and discreet slaves") being associated also with terms like spiritual "virgins." (Mt 25:1, 2) The question we should be pondering when we encounter scriptural terms like this and PARTICULARLY in view of the context being considered is WHY would Jesus chose this rather interesting term for these anointed ones in this specific pre-kingdom setting?

The answer is because he KNOWS that on EACH AND EVERY OCCASION that the earth would be experiencing the subsequent foretold "inspections" and "fiery cleansings" that would ALWAYS precede another manifestation or "coming/birth" of the kingdom, Jehovah's prophets would not only understand the MEANINGS being conveyed by such scriptural terms, but they would also recognize just how ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL it would be for them to help their fellow anointed brothers and sisters in these time frames ALSO grasp these meanings! (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) So why exactly would it be so important for the anointed ones to comprehend this kind of scriptural terminology in these settings of their "fiery" spiritual cleansings? And how exactly would this information connect to accounts like John 10:16? (Mt 3:11) (Mal 3:2, 3)

Well a major clue can be found in verse 10 of this same 25th chapter of Matthew 25 and verse 10 when Jesus begins to make it clear that the entire objective of these spiritual "virgins" in these pre-kingdom settings is to hopefully make an appearance at the next foretold "marriage feast" of their heavenly "BRIDEGROOM." Are we beginning to grasp the symbolic significance of this term "virgins" in connection with the anointed in these pre-kingdom settings and the reason WHY it is so important for us to understand? In fact WHY do we ONCE AGAIN seem to be CONSTANTLY confronted with this number "10"? Why would it have to be "TEN virgins," as if this were once again the" ten tribe" or "FLOCK" facet (or even POTENTIAL flock facet) of Israel being considered here? After all, aren’t the anointed ones supposed to be associated with the "TWO tribe" or Judean/SHEPHERDING facet of Jehovah's nation? Isn't it the "JUDEAN" facet of Jehovah's people (just as indicated also there in Matthew 24:15, 16) that are always the first to "flee to the mountains" in the event of a national apostasy since the holy spirit begins to open their eyes or help them "catch sight" of the spiritually dead condition of the nation well before the "OTHER sheep, which are NOT OF this fold"? (Joh 10:16) Are we actually "pondering" scriptural things and even being "ABSORBED in them" like we have always been commanded? (1 Tim 4:15)

The exact status or situation/condition of these spiritual "virgins" as well as just how crucial it is for them to RECOGNIZE these things in these specific time frames of their "baptisms of holy spirit and fire" begins to be fully revealed when we come to learn that OTHER scriptural terms Jehovah has assigned to these "virgins" are ones like "barren women" and spiritual "widows." (Isa 54:1-4) (Mt 3:11) Is the true meaning of this term "virgins" and its rather sobering implications in this pre-kingdom setting beginning to become clearer to us?

You see in these settings of a broken kingdom covenant or what is also referred to as a divine MARRIAGE covenant, ALL of the anointed qualify as "virgins" in the sense that they will not begin experiencing marital RELATIONS with their heavenly "bridegroom" until this marriage covenant is officially RENEWED with them! Until such time they will remain much like spiritual "WIDOWS," and since the nation of Israel is not actually BORN until this covenant is renewed, these "virgins" are ALSO much like "BARREN women"! What is more, until the moment that one of the "two MOUNTAINS" or "two WITNESSES" (Jehovah's "APPOINTED" teachers or "prophets") chooses to renew this broken covenant with a "few" of these "virgins" who begin to prove themselves "discreet" as opposed to "foolish," since they do not COMPRISE this nation until such time, they qualify merely as GENTILES or otherwise PRECISELY what has ALWAYS been represented with the TEN tribe EPHRAIM entity! (Mt 24:45) (Re 11:3, 4) Compare (Zec 14:3-5) (Mt 24:15, 16) (Ge 48:19) Hence until the moment this broken marriage covenant is renewed with them, they are very much like "TEN virgins." (Mt 25:1, 2)


But there is actually much more here that the anointed "virgins" VERY MUCH need to grasp in these prophetic time frames being considered in accounts like John 10:16 and Mathew 24:45-47. In order not to overwhelm people with too much information, will endeavor to pick up this discussion with the remainder of Matthew 24:45-47 in my next post or two.

Agape love;
Sol

Get out of her
Posts: 883
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#53 Post by Get out of her » 5 months ago

Now getting back to this account here in Matthew 24, let's not overlook the fact that DESPITE this setting of a broken kingdom covenant, obviously SOMEONE here in this context has received a genuine theocratic "appointment." Moreover we realize of course that it is always a "SHEPHERD" that distributes "food" for Jehovah's sheep. (Mt 24:45)

But wait just a minute here! We already know that in the context of a broken kingdom covenant when Jehovah's prophets initially arrive they don’t even have the AUTHORITY to minister to the flock in general, or otherwise the "other sheep which are not of this [shepherding] fold." (Mt: 5, 6) So the question would be—who exactly are these appointed shepherds ministering to here in these pre-kingdom settings? Could there perhaps be foretold time frames in which theocratically appointed shepherds would have authority over SOME of "Christ's domestics" or "belongings" but not "ALL" of them just as clearly indicated right here in this same account? (Mt 24:45) Compare (Mt 24:47) Come to think of it, wasn't it only after a renewed kingdom covenant was "inaugurated with blood" also in the early part of the first century that authority was granted to ALSO minister to "ALL THE NATIONS" or otherwise what had ALWAYS been represented with the ancient fleshly tribe of Ephraim? (Mt 28:18-20) (Ge 48:19) (He 9:16-18) Yes, the ministry being spoken of here in Matthew 24:45-47 is exactly the one covered also in the very next chapter of Matthew where it is further elaborated on as that to Jesus' "brothers." (Mt 25:40) These in turn are of course his fellow spirit anointed ones.

So then, would the scriptures actually be pointing out that just as John prophesied in 96 CE, a genuine/legitimate PUBLIC ministry would ALWAYS commence after a heavenly resurrection of Jehovah's prophets or "two witnesses" just as was demonstrated also in the first century in the case of John the Baptist and Jesus? (Re 11:3, 7:11, 12) Would this perhaps comprise a ministry that would result even in "peoples, and tribes and tongues and NATIONS" beginning to demonstrate "FEAR" of God? (Re 11:9-11) Compare (Mt 24:30) Once again, "ALL things written aforetime were written for our instruction… (Ro 15:4)


Yes what we want to understand here is that these "domestics" being ministered to in this pre-kingdom context of Matthew 24:45-17 qualify as the "LITTLE flock" which the "father has approved of GIVING THE KINGDOM." (Lu 12:32) It should be very clear to us that this would comprise the SHEPHERDING facet of Jehovah's nation, or otherwise the JUDEAN facet that would (as Jesus himself said) would "sit on THRONES and JUDGE the twelve tribes of Israel." (Lu 22:29, 30) (Re 5:10) (Ge 49:10)

Just as subsequently spelled out for us word for word in the next chapter of Matthew, these ones are Jesus' "BROTHERS" who are receiving spiritual food from Jehovah's prophets or "two witnesses." (Mt 25:40) This is by no means the "great crowd" of "OTHER SHEEP which are NOT OF this fold…." The fact is this is yet another prophetic time frame in which this "great crowd" of "OTHER sheep" would soon qualify as THEIR flock. This ALWAYS occurs the moment this "little flock" receives FULL shepherding power and authority with a renewed and INAUGURATED kingdom covenant. As Jesus words this in Matthew 24:45-47, this would be the moment in which this "little flock" mentioned in Luke 12:32 is "appointed over ALL his belongings." As he words it in John 10:16, this would be the moment in which BOTH sheepfolds "WILL BECOME one flock, one shepherd." What is more, the moment this "great crowd of other sheep" begins responding favorably to this public ministry, they no longer QUALIFY as gentiles or otherwise "people of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues." Rather just as pointed out word for word in accounts like Revelation 7:9-17, the moment people among these "other sheep" begin to subject themselves to what is now once again not only genuine and legitimate theocratic power and authority, but now FULL authority, this "great crowd" now qualifies as ISRAEL! Yes, they now comprise a "great crowd OUT OF all nations, tribes and peoples and tongues WHO HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB." (Re 7:14) These are now WORSHIPERS OF GOD who are "rendering sacred service day and night in his temple." (Re 7:15) At this point they have experienced "SALVATION," (Re 7:10) and since they are now "WALKING ORDERLY BY THIS RULE OF CONDUCT," they now qualify as "ISRAEL" just as CLEARLY pointed out for us in accounts like Galatians 6:16.

Are we finally beginning to fully appreciate NOT ONLY that we NEVER had authority to interpret the scriptures or begin inserting our personal views or opinions on them, but that there has never even been a NEED to do so! (Ge 40:8) ALL that has EVER been needed on our parts is to actually begin paying attention to the WORDS OF JEHOVAH regardless of whether they have already been written or are currently emerging from the mouth of his prophets! To actually ACCOMPLISH this however, it should be growing increasingly clear to us that the FIRST step involved in this in a context of complete national "apostasy" would be to "GET OUT FROM AMONG AND SEPARATE OURSELVES'" from what would now be ALL organized religion. (2 Cor 6:17) (Mt 24:15, 16)

Just as demonstrated also for us with Jesus "few" disciples in the early part of the first century in this same pre-kingdom setting, in order to now be "taken in" by Jehovah, we need to do this physically, mentally, emotionally and SPIRITUALLY. (Mt 22:14) (2 Cor 6:17b) If we are NOT being obedient to Jehovah even in this initial step, why would he EVER begin opening our minds and hearts to actually COMPREHEND and TRULY ACCEPT the genuine teachings of his word? (Mt 16:17) (Ac 16:14) A careful analysis of this scripture here in Matthew 24:45-47 ALONE should make it perfectly clear that in a pre-kingdom context or setting of a complete national apostasy, ANY religious entity that is currently engaged in a PUBLIC ministry is BY NO MEANS a "faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over Christ's domestics to give them their food at the proper time." To become guilty of this either knowingly or UNKNOWINGLY in a setting of a broken kingdom/marriage covenant would be to presumptuously position oneself as a FAKE manifestation of Israel or what is also identified as Jehovah's kingdom! Worse yet, to do so while claiming to be among the anointed (Christ—Strong's #5547) would be to position yourself as a kind of REPLACEMENT Christ, which just happens to be the TRUE definition of the word—"ANTICHRIST." (Strong's #473 #5547) Now since most likely this would qualify as merely among MANY things that ALL of us have become guilty of at one time or another regardless of whether or not we WERE or currently ARE among the anointed, are we beginning to better understand why the notion of "REPENTANCE" is continually stressed in these pre-kingdom time periods of the "feeding," "cleansing" and "inspecting" of "Christ's domestics"? (Mt 3:1, 2)

Nevertheless there is still much to be learned on this topic of John 10:16. Now that we might have at least a basic understanding of these things, we would likely do well to take a closer look at the prophetic dramas that illustrated or symbolically portrayed and foreshadowed the manner in which what are ultimately SPIRITUAL Jews, Israelites, Samaritans and gentiles are either "united as "one flock, one shepherd," or otherwise separated and distinguished from each other. (Joh 10:16)

Just In case I appear slow to respond to any questions or comments in the near future, I want to point out in advance that I will be entertaining guests visiting from out of state for the next month or so. While I will continue to engage in this discussion please understand my time will be more limited for the next few weeks.

Agape love;
Sol

Get out of her
Posts: 883
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#54 Post by Get out of her » 3 months ago


Jg 17:1-13

1 Ki 12:1-33

Zec 11:1-17

Re 13:1-18



As is basically the case throughout the entire Bible, what we are considering in these four chapters is the exact same phenomenon being expressed in several different ways; each focusing more deeply on specific facets in an effort to assist Jehovah's prophets in better grasping the complete picture. What is more, the moment we begin to recognize these facts is the exact same moment we will begin to much better understand scriptural accounts like John 10:16. So what exactly ARE we considering in these four passages?

Here in this symbolic spiritual language we find four different depictions of the moment in which Jehovah's sheepfold or "other sheep which are not of THIS fold" (not of the shepherding fold) (Joh 10:16) compare (Lu 12:32) suddenly find themselves (through no fault of their own) alienated or isolated from what WAS or up until that moment HAD BEEN their shepherding counterpart. Once again by comparing scriptures like Matthew 24:15, 16 with ones such as Daniel 11:30-32 we learn that this "despoiling" of what now WAS their "shepherds" (as Zechariah words it) occurs the moment these theocratically appointed leaders are recognized by Jehovah as having broken the "holy covenant" that had qualified them as such in the first place. While the first two accounts should be recognized as STRICTLY illustrations or SIMPLY prophetic/symbolic dramas, the last two are actually qualify also as fulfillments of what these illustrations pointed to. But since ALL "SEVEN" of the foretold "births of the barren woman" would ultimately end up as "instruction" that would be "written aforetime" for the advent of a final "EIGHTH king" that would involve a PERMANENT installment of Jehovah's kingdom, even the latter two can be recognized as prophetic dramas. (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) (Ro 15:4) (Re 17:11) But what exactly is so very important for the anointed ones to grasp in this case that Jehovah would go to such lengths to continue repeating the same points or issues over and over again in different ways?


Well the first thing we might notice in ALL of these accounts is that not only does this apostasy always immediately result in the sheepfold falling into the same idolatrous false worship that their "despoiled shepherds" are already now guilty of, but also that things soon degenerate to the point in which Jehovah is forced to recognize this "Ephraim"/"flock" or "Oholah" entity as having committed the same level of spiritual "prostitution" as their shepherding or Judean/"Oholibah" counterpart. (Eze 23) (Zec 11:17) (Ge 48:19) Once again the scriptures as well as the entire history of Jehovah's nation make it clear that despite what by this time normally amounts to DECADES of rebellious behavior and even idolatry on the part of the appointed shepherds, a complete abandonment on the part of Jehovah MORE SPECIFICALLY occurs the moment a NEW and very UN-HOLY covenant or alliance is formed between this nation and someone OTHER than Jehovah. (Ex 23:32, 33) What an EXTREMELY forgiving and patient God Jehovah really is! Nevertheless regardless of who or what Jehovah's unfaithful people might IMAGINE they have formed a new covenant with, the scriptures make it clear that this formal agreement has once again created a "three part" alliance or even "three part great city" comprised of the "DRAGON, the WILD BEAST," and what now qualifies as a "FALSE prophet." (Re 16:13, 19) A replacement anointing or substitute "Christ" (Strong's #5547) or otherwise what is also referred to as a very counterfeit "ANTIchrist is now allowed to overtake and even "SIT DOWN IN" what WAS Jehovah's holy temple or earthly "sanctuary." (Da 11:30-33) (2 Th 2:1-4) What WAS a "faithful town" has once again "BECOME a prostitute." (Isa 1:21) But what exactly does this have to do with us in OUR particular prophetic time frame, and more specifically with the way we need to understand accounts like John 10:16?


Well as is ALWAYS the case in these pre-kingdom settings we one again find ourselves in and PARTICULARLY the final phase in which Jehovah's prophets or "two witnesses"/"two spies" have once again arrived for a "spying out of the land" or "inspection" of "Christ's domestics," it is the SPIRIT ANOINTED ONES or –"body of the Christ" that DESPERATELY need to grasp the REASON for yet another "birth"/"coming" or "arrival" of Israel IN THE FIRST PLACE! (Strong's #5547) (Re 11:3) (Lu 19:44) (Jos 2:1) (1 Cor 12:12) The "kingdom of the heavens" or otherwise spiritual Israel is not "coming" because they ARE God's people and/or nation, but rather just as accounts like John 10:16 point out, because they are once again in dire need of "BECOMING" such. No Israel or otherwise no kingdom/nation means---NO ISRAELITES, which in turn means that even in the case of the anointed or "Christ's domestics," they are NOT God's people in these prophetic time frames! The "holy covenant" that had QUALIFIED them as such has once again been broken, and just as foretold by the Apostle John regarding the "SIXTH" "circuit"/"time" or foretold cycle of spiritual deaths and rebirths of this "barren woman," this earth shaking event or even great spiritual "earthquake" soon places ALL MANKIND back in a condition in which they once again require "SALVATION," or otherwise "NOT ONE is found written in the scroll of life..." (Re 9:13 11:13 13:8) Compare (Zec 14:5) Moreover just as demonstrated for us also in the case of the FIFTH foretold "birth of the barren woman" in the early part of the first century, the reason EVEN THE ANOINTED ("Christ's domestics" or "brothers") must be spiritually fed or "given their food at the proper time" by the prophets or "appointed slaves" is because THEY DO NOT KNOW EVEN THE BASICS OF TRUE BIBLE TEACHINGS after experiencing an entire lifetime of "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine." (Mt 15:9 24:45 25:40) It is in these 'TIMES OF INSPECTION" that the opportunity is being HELD OUT to humble and repentant ones to "BECOME one flock, one shepherd"! (Joh 10:16) (Ps 37:11)

Is the fact that humble "repentance" is always emphasized by the prophets in these pre-kingdom time frames beginning to take on more meaning for us? (Mt 3:1, 2) But here is where a rather significant distinction comes in to bear in these pre-kingdom settings between the "LITTLE flock" that "the father has approved of giving the kingdom" (the shepherding fold) as opposed to the "GREAT CROWD" of "OTHER sheep" which are NOT OF this (shepherding or "Judean/"Oholibah") fold." (Lu 12:32) (Re 7:9, 10) (Joh 10:16) (Eze 23)

Due to the fact that this "salvation" (that mankind is ALWAYS in desperate need of securing for themselves in the setting of a broken kingdom covenant) spoken of in accounts like Revelation 7:9, 10 always "ORIGINATES with THE JEWS," (as opposed to A Jew?), or otherwise the kingdom covenant is always formed initially with what qualify more specifically as the SHEPHERDING facet of God's people, the ANOINTED ones in these "times of inspection" have a unique opportunity that is simply not held out to the "other sheep who are NOT OF this fold." (Joh 4:22) What will soon qualify essentially as CITIZENS of this reborn nation as opposed to "heavenly kings and priests" actually stand at the moment merely as POTENTIALLY the "Ephraim" or "Oholah"/"flock"/"sheep" facet of Israel in these pre-kingdom time frames. As opposed to what will soon "BECOME" (Joh 10:16) the citizenship or "flock" of this nation or theocratic shepherding entity, (it needs to actually EXIST first with a renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant), the spirit anointed ones IMMEDIATELY have the priceless opportunity of qualifying as Jehovah's special property JUST AS MUCH as the prophets EVEN PRIOR to the fleshly sacrifice and corresponding heavenly resurrection that these "two witnesses" or "appointed faithful slaves" must ALWAYS share in for an "inauguration" of a renewed kingdom covenant. (Re 5:10 11:3, 7, 11, 12) (Mt 24:45) (Lu 22:29) (He 9:16-18) But how do we know this and how exactly can the "anointed virgins" immediately qualify themselves as Jehovah's people or worshipers?

I intend to pick up the discussion with these questions in my next post:

Agape love;
Sol

Get out of her
Posts: 883
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#55 Post by Get out of her » 3 months ago

Coming to terms with the fact that the "anointed virgins" have the priceless opportunity to become recognized by Jehovah as actual worshipers of his EVEN PRIOR to a blood inauguration of a renewed kingdom covenant is perhaps best aided by examining and comparing scriptures such as 2 Corinthians 6:17 and John 4:22, 23 with ones like Deuteronomy 26:18, 19, Psalms 2:7, 8 and Haggai 1:1-14.

We want to keep in mind first of all that the context or setting of accounts like these here in John and in fact also Haggai are the same as the one we immediately find ourselves in at this very moment. Some of these scriptures in fact cover not only the foretold time frames of a broken holy covenant between Jehovah and mankind, but even more specifically the precise time frame of the arrival of Jehovah's prophets or "two witnesses" for the spiritual "inspection, feeding and cleansing" of what is referred to with term such as "Christ's brothers" or "anointed virgins." (Mt 25:1, 2, 40) (Jos 2:1) (Re 11:3) While the setting of the accounts there in Haggai and John are actually in the precise time frame of the ministry to "Christ's domestic's or "brothers," (bear in mind the word Christ (Christos in Greek) simply means—anointed), the ones there in 2 Corinthians, Deuteronomy and Psalms on the other hand are merely POINTING to these foretold time frames of the spiritual cleansings and rebirths of Israel in a prophetic and illustrative/symbolic manner. (He 8:5) (Ga 4:24) (Ro 15:4) (2 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) So what exactly can we glean from such accounts?

Since we are currently focusing on John 10:16, it might be best to begin by considering some things that Jesus had already said just a few chapters prior there at John 4:22:
22 "You worship what you do not know; WE worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews."
Once again, to truly grasp what is being conveyed here it is absolutely CRITICAL for us to bear in mind the precise setting and context. First of all, the woman Jesus is speaking to here has been identified as a "woman of Samaria." (Joh 4:7) We have already established scripturally that the only difference between an Israelite and a Samaritan is that a Samaritan has lost the EARTHLY portion of its shepherding counterpart (the Jews) to an apostasy or broken holy covenant. In this setting they STILL qualify as Israelites, at least until they succumb to the same level of apostasy. We also already know that it is never very long before this occurs when they find themselves in this situation. What is even MORE important to understand here however is that there is NEVER ANY NEED for Jehovah's "two witnesses" to arrive and renew or reestablish a kingdom covenant with mankind IF ISRAEL (or what is also referred to as "the kingdom") STILL EXISTS. So what is the point here?

One of the first things we need to understand in connection with all this is that in this specific setting or time frame, referring to this woman as a Samaritan would be EXACTLY like identifying someone as "one of Jehovah's witnesses" IN OUR time frame. In other words, when we do so we are merely acknowledging that they belong to an organization that is identified by that name. This of course does not mean we continue to recognize them as genuine worshipers or "witnesses" of Jehovah. When a complete apostasy occurs, "A god (as opposed to "THE GOD"), sits down in the temple of THE GOD, publicly showing himself to be a god." (2 Thess 2:4) Or as the prophet Daniel words it, when Jehovah's "holy covenant" is broken, a "disgusting thing that causes desolation" is "PUT IN PLACE" of what until that moment was JEHOVAH'S anointing or –Christ. (Da 11:30-32) Compare (Mt 24:15, 16) This is precisely the reason the Apostle John uses the term antichrist for this "disgusting thing," as this term literally means—replacement or substitute anointing. (1 Joh 2:18) (Strong's #473 #5547) Let's not forget that Jehovah's earthly "sanctuary" or "temple" is ultimately comprised of the spirit anointed shepherds of Jehovah's people, and this is precisely what the literal ANCIENT temples were always used to prophetically foreshadow in a symbolic/illustrative manner for the subsequent SPIRITUAL manifestations of Israel. (1 Cor 3:16) Scriptures such as this help us to understand that when this apostasy occurs, while what WERE Jehovah's appointed shepherds will indeed continue as anointed ones or Christ, it is no longer JEHOVAH'S holy spirit that they are endowed with, which in turn makes them the ANTI-Christ! But what does this mean for the flock or sheep that these shepherds were ministering to? More specifically, what happens when they later JOIN these now demonic shepherds in complete apostasy?

Well if even in the case of Jehovah's ONE AND ONLY nation and religion "A god" or even a "disgusting thing" (as the Apostle Paul and Daniel words it) has now replaced "THE God" in what WAS Jehovah's holy "temple" or earthly "sanctuary," then we are facing the question of what exactly is now being worshiped here on the earth by ANYONE at this point. If even the one and only TRUE religion or form of worship has now fallen into the hands of Satan, should this not now help us to better understand scriptural prophesies like Revelation 12:14 and 13:8? Is it perhaps much like enduring a "fiery baptism" or otherwise a test and trial very akin to "picking up a torture stake" for us to humbly and repentantly come to terms with rather harsh realities like this? (Mt 3:11 10:38) Will such scriptural truths prove to be something we are able to "PUT UP WITH," or will they ultimately comprise a "ROCK OVER WHICH TO STUMBLE" in our case? (Mal 3:2) (Isa 8:14) (Mt 13:57) Hopefully we can prove to be among the foretold "few" who begin to fully appreciate the reason why humble repentance on our parts is ALWAYS stressed by Jehovah's prophets in these "times of inspection" of "Christ's domestics." (Mt 22:14 24:45) (Lu 19:44)

Granted one of the reasons that forgiveness and salvation is always held out to us in these time frames is because we are normally unaware of exactly what we have been worshiping. This is precisely one of the points Jesus is addressing here in his conversation with this "woman of Samaria" when he points out that she—"DOES NOT KNOW" what she worships. Let's not forget that the very CAPITOL of ancient Samaria was DIRECTLY associated with the ancient tribe of Ephraim, being located right inside its tribal inheritance. When this "full equivalent of nations" representation actually qualifies as ISRAEL with an in tact or valid kingdom covenant, its constituency is more specifically identified as people "OUT OF all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues," as opposed to simply people of "all the nations." (Ge 48:19) (Re 7:9 13:7, 8)

You see when Israel actually exists and these ones have "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb" with genuine repentance and conversion, they are now ISRAELITES regardless of what specific country, religious background, or even genetic lineage they happen to come from. This sheepfold is in fact precisely what was symbolically pictured and prophetically foreshadowed with the "vast mixed company" that joined the Hebrews in the exodus from ancient Egypt and subsequently qualified themselves as part of Israel by formally agreeing to and adopting the exact same kingdom covenant. (Ex 12:38) The HEBREWS on the other hand were used to represent the theocratically appointed SHEPHERDING fold of this nation, with its various tribes representing different FACETS of this theocratic authority and power. It was for this reason that the "tenth plague" or "death of the firstborn" with its associated "sacrificial lamb" and "splashing of its blood on the doorposts" was something that involved ALL of the Hebrew tribes and ONLY the Hebrews. Keeping points like this in mind will go a long way in helping us to better grasp accounts like Revelation 7:1-10 which Dajo1 did well to introduce into this discussion. I intend to soon demonstrate exactly how this account does indeed tie in and help us to better understand scriptures like John 10:16. For the moment however or otherwise until a renewed kingdom covenant is officially "inaugurated" with the blood of Jehovah's prophets or "two witnesses," what this sheepfold or "people of the nations" are actually worshiping is specifically identified by ones like the Apostle Paul as "the demons." (1 Cor 10:20) But does this mean that ONLY the sheep fold or ONLY the Samaritan/Oholah entity is guilty of demon worship in this pre-kingdom setting, and not also the Oholibah or Judean one? And how does the answer to this question tie into accounts like John 4:22? (Eze 23:4)

Once again the precise setting here in John 4:22 is the moment in which at least a "few" people on the earth (UNLIKE this "woman of Samaria") have not only obeyed the command to "flee" or otherwise "get out from among and separate themselves" from what is now for the fifth foretold "time" a completely counterfeit or false form of worship, but even more they have now at this point "fled" MORE SPECIFICALLY "to the MOUNTAINS." (Mt 24:15, 16) (2 Cor 6:17) But what exactly is being conveyed with this symbolic spiritual language, and why would this second step prove to be so very crucial?

We very much need to understand that the people Jesus is identifying here as "Jews" to this Samaritan woman or what at this point would actually have qualified as Apostles (as opposed to simply disciples) were not MERELY among the ones that had now completely separated themselves from the apostate form of Judaism that existed at that time. In addition they had had not only identified Jehovah's true prophets or "two witnesses," but had also by this time completely submitted themselves to their teachings and genuine theocratic authority. This had resulted in THEY THEMSELVES being given a measure of genuine theocratic authority and power. This came in the form of not only a divine preaching and teaching commission of their own, but also an additional measure of Jehovah's Holy Spirit that they would need to actually carry it out. (Mr 3:13, 14) It is ALWAYS precisely an endowment of genuine theocratic authority and power that CREATES a Jew, or otherwise a legitimate theocratic SHEPHERD! This divine appointment is exactly what had converted them from mere disciples into what would now qualify as APOSTLES! But are we imagining it was mere coincidence that Jesus is pictured as first "ascending a mountain" here in Mark before granting this divine authority and power to his true followers?

Once again we find Jehovah's prophets or "two witnesses" being associated with "MOUNTAINS." This should come as no surprise to us since genuine ruling authority and power have ALWAYS been associated or identified with mountains THROUGHOUT the Holy Scriptures. (Re 17:9, 10) In fact not only genuine theocratic authority and power, but also Jehovah's provision of atoning blood for the sin of mankind. (Ge 22:14) Do we imagine it was merely coincidence that the ministry of Jesus or otherwise his sermons of spiritual enlightenment (illumination of a lamp?) were often associated not only with a mountain, but more specifically the "mount of OLIVES?" Are we even now still failing to grasp the symbolic significance or meaning of things like olive oil and the "TWO LAMPSTANDS" it was always used in for the illumination of Jehovah's temple or tabernacle, and in turn what this temple ITSELF was used to symbolically foreshadow? (1 Cor 3:16) Did we forget that olive oil was also used for anointing or otherwise to represent that one had become anointed with Jehovah's holy spirit? Are we still overlooking things like the fact that these "two lamp stands" were ultimately identified by the Apostle John as symbolizing exactly the same thing as the "olive trees" or more specifically the MOUNTAIN of olive trees" that is ultimately "SPLIT IN THE MIDDLE"? (TWO olive trees; such as Jesus AND John the Baptist, or the prophet Daniel AND Jeremiah?) (Zec 14:4) Are we still failing to take note of things like the fact that ONCE AGAIN here in this account of Zechariah we find this phenomenon directly associated with yet another spiritual "earthquake" which in turn is always associated in the scriptures with EXACTLY what is pointed to here in this same account; namely an apostasy of Jehovah's theocratically appointed shepherds which in this case occurred with the ancient King Uzziah. (Zec 14:5) Compare (Re 11:13) Did we EVER take note of the fact that the Apostle John later made it clear NOT ONLY that the "two lampstands" and "two olive trees" had ALWAYS been used to represent Jehovah's prophets or "two witnesses" in these pre-kingdom settings, but even that these appointed teachers would appear and perform the SAME PRIESTLY FUNCTIONS on EVERY occasion that Jehovah's kingdom would manifest itself on the earth? (Re 11:3, 7, 8, 11, 12) (Jer 15:9) (1 Sa 2:3) (Da 4:23, 32)

Yes in view of just how imperative it is for us to fully grasp the meaning and importance of scriptures like Matthew 24:15 and 16 or otherwise what it means for us to "flee to the MOUNTAINS" specifically in these settings of the "time of inspection" of "Christ's domestics" immediately prior to another full manifestation of Jehovah's kingdom, let's by all means take the time to focus on a few scriptures that deal with this subject. I will ask my dear brothers and sisters to read over and prayerfully ponder the following accounts before I continue this discussion.

Ge 22:14

Zech 4:1-14 14:4

Re 11:3, 4

Jos 2:1

Ex 27:20 30:22-25


Get out of her
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Re: John 10:16

#56 Post by Get out of her » 3 months ago

Is a careful consideration of such scriptures finally causing us to be struck by the rather sobering and unpleasant reality of the situation we have all long been in at this point in time, and in fact in ANY of the foretold periods of the spiritual cleansings and rebirths of Jehovah's nation? (Jer 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5) (Re 17:10, 11) Are we beginning to fully appreciate how such accounts are connected to scriptures like John 10:16 or otherwise why it is ALWAYS an issue in these prophetic time frames for people to actually QUALIFY as God's special property, and by extension as ones who are in line for salvation? Yes as it is worded there in John 10:16, it is always once again an issue of "BECOMING" one of Jehovah's sheep, regardless of what particular "fold" of sheep this might be. Would it ONLY be the fifth foretold "birth" of the kingdom or re-establishment of the holy covenant in the first century that would qualify people as belonging to Jehovah? (Le 26:9-11)

We of course should be focusing more on the POSITIVE aspects of this situation, such as the fact that Jehovah's prophets or OTHERS among the "MANY members of the body of the Christ" are ALWAYS prepared to perform the necessary priestly functions to aid Jehovah in establishing yet another kingdom covenant with mankind. (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12) (1 Cor 12:12) But have we forgotten that one of the PRIMARY functions of genuine theocratic priests is and ALWAYS HAS BEEN to TEACH Jehovah's law or written word to the people? (Ex 24:12) (2 Ch 15:3 17:7-9) (Hag 2:11) Particularly in view of the fact that a least MOST of us can openly acknowledge that we are immediately facing yet another foretold full manifestation of Jehovah's kingdom, should we not be seriously considering the following questions:

Did not Jesus himself prophesy or foretell future occasions on which even his anointed "brothers" would find themselves in dire need of being taught or spiritually "fed" by theocratically "appointed" teachers? (Mt 24:45 25:40)

Did not a very elderly Apostle John prophesy this very same thing over six decades later and even in conjunction with the VERY SAME subsequent priestly functions of blood atonement and a heavenly resurrection? (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12) Compare (Re 6:12 9:12, 13)

Was it perhaps a coincidence that this sudden need for spiritual feeding was mentioned as coinciding with another foretold national apostasy (spiritual "earthquake"/broken covenant) or otherwise what was ALWAYS identified as what nullifies Jehovah's salvation or disqualifies people as belonging to him? (Mt 24:15, 16) Compare (Da 11:30-32) (Zec 14:5)

What is essentially ALWAYS the message that Jehovah's appointed prophets are delivering to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" In the periods of the spiritual "feeding," inspecting and cleansing" of "Christ's domestics" or "brothers"? (Mt 3:1, 2 10:5, 6) (Lu 19:44)

If "ALL things written aforetime were written for our instruction," then WHY is the issue of REPENTANCE always highlighted along with an announcement of another immanent arrival of Jehovah's kingdom? (Ro 15:4) (Mt 3:1, 2)

Why is the issue of 'BECOMING" a servant or worshiper ("sheep") of Jehovah (as opposed to a worshiper of "the demons"?) is always stressed in these prophetic time frames? (Joh 10:16) (1 Cor 10:20)

In view of the fact that such things are among the issues that are always stressed by Jehovah's prophets in these pre-kingdom settings, is it beginning to make more sense to us that coming to terms with them and making the necessary adjustments is identified as like being in need of enduring a fiery cleansing process? (Mal 3:2, 3) (Mt 3:11)

Is the notion of becoming a follower of Jesus in this setting being much like humbly and repentantly "picking up a torture stake" beginning to truly hit home with us? (Lu 14:27)

Are scriptures that point to the teachings of Jehovah's "two witnesses" or "spies" in these time frames as being something that must be "put up with" and even as like a "rock over which to stumble" beginning to become clearer to us? (Mal 3:2, 3) (Isa 8:14, 15)

Are questions such as this finally helping us to better grasp why even among the ANOINTED in these time frames, very "few" would ultimately be chosen as actual Apostles or fellow appointed ones along with the prophets? (Mt 22:14)

Yes the reality is that most of us will stubbornly and pridefully continue to cling to the notion that we already are and in fact have long been true worshipers of the one true God, and by extension have never been in need of redemption or salvation. Why would we have need of any humble repentance or fiery and trialsome cleansing process? Haven't we always been taught that we have been enjoying salvation for over two millenniums now? That being the case, why would we ever even need to "flee" or "get out of" the current form of worship we are already engaged in, let alone be "on the watch" or the lookout for the arrival of Jehovah's prophets? (Mt 24:15, 16) (Re 18:4) Nevertheless the truth is that there is NEVER any need for Israel or what is also referred to as God's kingdom to "come" if Israelites and by extension true teachings and worship are already here.


We might find it interesting that on more than one occasion the true teachings of Jehovah were identified by him as a "song" that must be recorded and taught to the people. (De 31:19) Of course if I must be taught, than it would obviously be new. (Ps 144:9 149:1) The concept of a new song in connection with the true teachings of Jehovah in turn might remind us of scriptures like Revelation 14:3. Are such scriptural accounts finally beginning to take on more meaning for us?


You see it is precisely in these pre-kingdom time frames that the true teachings of Jehovah's word are very much like a "NEW song that NO ONE could master" but the ones who will ultimately be "bought from the earth." (Re 14:3) In these settings ALL OF HUMANITY would now once again have been subjected to decades if not CENTURIES of "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine." Learning this "new song" and humbly and obediently making the necessary adjustments to it requires a "LETTING GO of the things behind and STRETCHING forward to the things ahead." (Php 3:13) Obviously this is not an easy thing for us to do. But with this "new song" in mind, let's by all means now consider some additional scriptures that not only VERY MUCH apply to these same prophetic time frames that we once again find ourselves in, but even ones that we likely have NEVER even understood to begin with, let alone applied to ourselves in this current situation. With a prayerful approach as always, let's by all means see if they continue to shed more light on these five highlighted scriptures I have asked my brothers and sisters to consider in connection with John 10:16. Once again, let us see if such a consideration would continue helping us to better grasp why the qualities of humility and repentance are ALWAYS stressed to the anointed in these prophetic time frames. (Mr 9:33-37)


To be continued:

Get out of her
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Re: John 10:16

#57 Post by Get out of her » 2 months ago


(Isa 47:1-7)

Come down and sit down in the dust, O VIRGIN DAUGHTER of Babylon. Compare (Mt 25:1, 2) (Jer 14:17) Sit down on the earth where there is no THRONE, O DAUGHTER of the Chaldeans. Compare (Job 1:20) (Jon 3:6) For you will not experience again that people call you delicate and dainty. (Ge 49:20) Compare (Re 18:14) 2 Take a hand mill and grind out flower. Compare (Mt 24:41) Uncover your VEIL. Compare (Song 4:1, 3) (Lu 2:32) (2 Cor 3:13-16) Strip off the flowing skirt. Uncover the leg. Cross over the RIVERS. Compare (Ex 14:16) 3 You out to UNCOVER your NAKEDNESS. Compare (Job 1:21) (Ge 1:7) Also your REPROACH ought to be seen. Compare (Jer 15:15) (He 13:13) Vengeance is what I shall take, and I shall not meet any man kindly.


Particularly in view of the fact that this "king of Nineveh" found there in Jonah 3:6 (that I included n my citations) is presented to us as YET ANOTHER Chaldean representation that suddenly finds itself in a situation in which genuine REPENTANCE desperately needs to be demonstrated before Jehovah, and in so doing this Chaldean entity is subsequently SPARED from extremely adverse judgments, are scriptures such as Isaiah 47:1-7 beginning to take on new meaning for us? Once again we want to take note that this is more specifically with reference to a "DAUGHTER of Babylon," and even one more particularly identified as a "VIRGIN." You see there is more than ONE "daughter of the Chaldeans" or otherwise what is ALWAYS given birth to with a now lower level of authority when Babylon the Great in a "STANDING" condition as a "servant of Jehovah" "FALLS" into spiritually adulterous relations with Satan and his "seed." (Da 7:4) (Jer 25:9) Compare (Re 18:2) Of course in the setting of this FINAL fall, what now consists of "TWO women grinding at the mill" (or otherwise producing spiritual food whether spiritually poisonous or healthful), (Mt 24:41) (Isa 21:14, 15 28:8) in their case NEITHER would possess ANY authority; (at least initially), not even what was long ago assigned to Satan. (Da 7:12 (Re 11:15) (Lu 4:6) (1 Joh 5:19) But how exactly does one of these women begin to qualify as a "virgin" and then ALSO subsequently receive even DIVINE authority? Yes the fact is there later occurs yet ANOTHER separation even among these "fleeing virgins."

You see ONE of these "two women" in this setting of a broken kingdom covenant DOES MORE than simply "flee to the wilderness" to be "AWAY from the face of the serpent," or otherwise CEASE having spiritual relations ("virgin"?) with what NOW is comprised of the "dragon, the wild beast, and false prophet" as opposed to a "servant of Jehovah" or a "faithful town." (Re 12:14) (Isa 1:21) (Jer 25:9) The moment in which at least SOME among this fleeing entity ultimately succeed in fleeing all the way to the "MOUNTAINS" (a symbolic representation of seeking out Jehovah's prophets or "two witnesses") and subsequently respond to the point in which they no longer even "TOUCH the unclean thing," they are now not only 'TAKEN IN" by Jehovah, but also even furnished with GENUINE THEOCRATIC AUTHORITY AND POWER THEMSELVES! (Mt 24:15, 16) (2 Cor 6:17) (Re 11:3) This is the case even if this endowment is relatively modest for the moment.

Yes at the moment in which Jehovah's "two spies" or "two witnesses" arrive to perform an "inspection" and "feeding" of these "virgins," ONE group of what is actually TWO groups of "virgins" (identified also as "discreet and foolish") in these foretold pre-kingdom settings will begin to produce GENUINE spiritual food, by assisting Jehovah's prophets in distributing it to others that are joining them in the figurative "wilderness." (Lu 19:44) (Mt 24:45 25:1, 2) (Mt 10:7) (Lu 10:1) The "virgins" who FAIL in this respect will ultimately succeed only in continuing to produce "tables full of filthy vomit" and will eventually be "abandoned" to suffer the same fate as the "great harlot." (Mt 24:41) As we can see, in the end there is ultimately only TWO women grinding at the mill" in these pre-kingdom settings.

But wait a minute here! We have always been taught that Babylon the Great will NEVER escape Jehovah's punishments or adverse judgments, and that these would always ultimately involve her complete destruction. So what good would even be accomplished by ANY act of humble repentance on her part, such as even the willingness to openly expose and even take full responsibility for her own "nakedness" or otherwise her extremely guilty condition of complete spiritual "desolation"? (Re 18:8) Compare (Da 9:27) Are we still failing to take note of the consistent and clear connection the scriptures have ALWAYS made between this "disgusting" entity and what WAS Jehovah's own nation or kingdom after a violated kingdom covenant? (Isa 1:21)

To truly even BEGIN to fully grasp scriptural accounts like John 10:16 and the manner in which it speaks of people "BECOMING" either Jehovah's "flock" OR "shepherds" involves things like coming to terms with the fact that scriptures like Isaiah 47:1-7 and Jonah 3:1-10 are with reference to US or WE OURSELVES in ANY pre-kingdom setting. PARTICULARLY in the immediate setting we once again find ourselves in, we DESPERATELY need to understand that such accounts are designed to help us appreciate things like why child-like humility and genuine repentance are so extremely vital on our parts in a setting in which Israel or otherwise God's kingdom DOES NOT EVEN EXIST (and by extension God's people or worshipers) on the earth and therefore is required to once again "COME." When Israel and by extension Israelites (whether fleshly or spiritual) does not even EXIST on the earth, the only thing that remains until the establishment of another kingdom covenant is "the great harlot" or what is also referred to with scriptural terms such as the "antichrist" or "man of lawlessness." The only question is WHO among this "disgusting" entity will begin demonstrating genuine repentance and humility or what is also referred to in the scriptures as "wisdom"/"discretion and "faithfulness." (Mt 24:45) Assuming at least SOME people indeed ARE demonstrating this humble repentance, EVEN THESE ONES are NOT (at least initially) God's people as in his "sons," "sheep," or even "shepherds," but merely "SLAVES." As pointed out in accounts like John 10:16, it is once again an issue of "BECOMING" Jehovah's "sheep." (Mt 24:45) This designation technically includes EVEN THE PROPHETS OR "TWO WITNESSES" until yet another broken kingdom covenant is renewed and inaugurated with blood. (Lu 22:19) (He 9:16-18) Coming to terms with very sobering realities such as this in these pre-kingdom settings is part of what Jesus is speaking of when he points out how coming to actually "follow him" would be much like "picking up a torture stake..." (Mt 10:38) It is precisely this situation that explains the symbolic spiritual language found in scriptures such as Isaiah 43:3:


3 "For I am Jehovah your God, the holy one of Israel your savior. I have given EGYPT as a RANSOM for you, Ethiopia and Seba in place of you."


Once again we find this "great harlot" being represented as "THREE PART" entity or even "three part great city." Compare (Re 16:13, 19) But do we understand that this is precisely the reason that even prophets such as John the Baptist and Jesus himself who OFFERED THEMSELVES UP for this sacrificial "ransom," were in so doing openly acknowledging that they would QUALIFY as part of this "disgusting" entity until the moment that Jehovah could cleanse them BY MEANS of this "ransom" or "blood inauguration." (He 9:16-18, 22) It was precisely BECAUSE they qualified as such that Jehovah even "TOOK DELIGHT in crushing them." (Isa 53:10) It is also this very same phenomenon that explains why this priestly act of a voluntary offering was represented symbolically in ancient Egypt with the death NOT of the firstborn HEBREWS, but rather the firstborn among the "EGYPTIANS"! (Ex 12:12, 13) The "inaugurating blood" that ALWAYS ultimately frees mankind from the spiritual bondage and slavery of a broken covenant and ushers in another "coming of the kingdom," is ACTUALLY the blood of what "in a SPIRITUAL sense is called SODOM AND EGYPT." (Lu 22:19) (Re 11:8)

Yes it is only AFTER this spiritual cleansing occurs that people can once again qualify themselves as ISRAELITES or otherwise Jehovah's REDEEMED or SAVED people. This is the reason we find The Apostle John there in Revelation foretelling future periods of time in which not even ONE among mankind would find themselves "written in the scroll of the life of the lamb who was slaughtered from the "founding of the world." (Re 13:8) Yes all EIGHT of these foretold "births" of the nation" or "comings of the kingdom" along with their "blood inaugurations" of a renewed covenant would actually qualify also as a "FOUNDING OF THE WORLD." This wording is with reference to the fact that as long as this renewed kingdom covenant remains in an unbroken condition, mankind is residing NOT in Satan's world, but rather JEHOVAH'S. The earth or land is now "HOLY" or otherwise qualifies as ISRAEL rather than a "wilderness" or even "in a spiritual sense SODOM AND EGYPT." (Jos 5:15) The Christ (anointed) (Strong's #5547) is now "ALL THINGS AND IN ALL." (Col 3:11) The world of mankind is now once again the CHRIST as opposed to the "ANTICHRIST" or "great harlot." We want to understand that when the Apostle John acknowledged that the "whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one," this was immediately after he had just announced the arrival of the next foretold "ANTICHRIST"! (1 John 2:18 5:19) An apostasy of Jehovah's appointed earthly shepherds or otherwise the breaking of the kingdom covenant is precisely what CREATES the "antichrist" or what is actually defined as a counterfeit or replacement anointing. (Strong's #473 #5547) Up until OUR prophetic time frame at least, this apostasy had ALWAYS handed even FULL authority and power over the earth to Satan as opposed to a mere "lengthening in life." (Da 7:12)

What this means is that when we are reading scriptural accounts like John 10:16, what we are ACTUALLY considering is the following:

Here in the setting of the FIFTH of the foretold "seven" occasions in which Jehovah's holy covenant would be violated and subsequently renewed and restored in the foretold setting of the "times of the NATIONS," (as opposed to the time of the final "EIGHTH king"), (Re 17:11) by recognizing and acknowledging their dire and desperate NEED to identify Jehovah's prophets and subject themselves to their teachings and direction, the disciples of Jesus and John the Baptist were doing PRECISELY what is being represented in the symbolic spiritual language of accounts like Isaiah 47:1-7 and Jonah Chapter 3. They were humbly and repentantly acknowledging themselves as members of the "great harlot" or even "Sodom and EGYPT in a SPIRITUAL sense," humbly and repentantly accepting the reproach or community responsibility that ALWAYS results from a broken kingdom covenant. This in turn means that they as a REPENTANT REMNANT of this entity were in essence "UNCOVERING THEIR NAKEDNESS"…or otherwise humbly and openly acknowledging that their "REPROACH OUGHT TO BE SEEN." (Zeph 3:18)

This qualification as part of the "great harlot" and subsequent repentance is precisely the reason that the faithful and discreet cooperation of "Rahab the HARLOT" with the "two spies" (representing the prophets or "two witnesses" in these pre-kingdom "times of inspection" or "spying out of the land") is among the many symbolic/prophetic pictures of this humble repentance among the "few" anointed "virgins" who genuinely respond to Jehovah's "appointed" dispensers of spiritual food in these prophetic time frames. (Jos 2:1) Compare (Lu 19:44) (Re 11:3) (Mt 22:14 24:45)

As is of course ALWAYS the case in these "times of inspection" or "spying out of the land," it would have been much easier for these repentant ones to do what essentially EVERYONE around them was doing at the time, namely believing that they were Israelites or even Jews and by extension ALREADY God's people with NO NEED of any redemption or a restored kingdom covenant. (Mt 3:8-10) DO WE UNDERSTAND that referring to ourselves as "Christians" (SPIRITUAL Israelites) and NOT "keeping on the watch" for Jehovah's prophets in a setting in which we are once again expecting a "coming of the kingdom," WE ARE DOING THE EXACT SAME THING" as these ones described in accounts like Matthew 3:7-10. We are actually in essence telling Jehovah that we HAVE NO NEED of this long anticipated coming of his kingdom, and this is of course all the more absurd in what is now the setting of the FINAL foretold manifestation which will make all the others seem relatively insignificant by comparison!

Once again as Jesus himself pointed out in passages such as Matthew 22:14, very "few" even of the anointed ones in these prophetic time frames of the "inspection, feeding and cleansing" of "Christ's domestics" would ultimately prove themselves as "discreet." (Mt 3:11 24:45 25:1, 2) (Lu 19:44) It is precisely this humble and repentant "wisdom" or "discretion" in this very same pre-kingdom or "time of their being inspected" setting that is being pictured prophetically for us also in accounts like Haggai 1:12-14. What we want to pay special attention to here is that is was only at the moment in which at least a "few" of the people began to "LISTEN" or actually pay heed to Jehovah's prophets that they suddenly found themselves "WITH" Jehovah. Yes, these ones once again were recognized as belonging to JEHOVAH, or otherwise qualifying as genuine Israelites who were now redeemed or saved. As always however as we once again observe here in Haggai, this salvation would "originate" with the "LITTLE flock" or otherwise the appointed SHEPHERDING fold of the kingdom, as these "Jews" (as opposed to simply Israelites) were among the FIRST to begin demonstrating humble repentance and obedience to Jehovah's appointed teachers. (Joh 4:22) (Lu 12:32) This is not only PRECISELY the setting we are considering once again here in John 10:16, but even more importantly the one in which we find ourselves in AT THIS VERY MOMENT!

Here in John 10:16 Jesus is speaking to his disciples or otherwise a "little flock" of people who Jehovah now "APPROVED OF GIVING THE KINGDOM" as even ultimately HEAVENLY "kings and priests" due to the fact that they had begun to actually "LISTEN" to Jehovah's "two witnesses" or prophets. (Re 5:10) (Lu 12:32) Their humble repentance and obedience had at this point ALREADY qualified them as Jews or otherwise the ones that would now soon "SIT ON THRONES AND JUDGE the twelve tribes of Israel" due to the fact that their obedience enabled Jehovah's "two spies" to now formally COMMISSION them as fellow theocratic instructors or teachers. (Lu 22:29, 30) (Mr 3:14) This means they now ALSO possessed genuine theocratic authority and power, and this is precisely what was represented symbolically with the "two spies" commissioning a cooperative "prostitute" by the name of "Rahab" to now give instructions to her entire household. (Jos 2:17-21)

Until the moment this renewed theocratic power and authority would be completely legitimized however with another "blood inauguration" or literal death and resurrection of Jehovah's prophets, the ministry of these newly commissioned ones would be restricted to only the ones who had JOINED them in the spiritual "wilderness." (Re 11:7, 8, 11, 12) This is what Jesus is speaking of n accounts like Matthew 10:5, 6 when he informs his apostles to preach ONLY to the "LOST sheep of the house of Israel." This terminology is with reference to the ones who have "caught sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing in the holy place" and have subsequently "FLED" from it. (Mt 24:15, 16) This is simply another way of saying that they have--"gotten out from among and separated themselves" from what they now suddenly recognize as an "unclean" or even "disgusting thing." (2 Cor 6:17) Compare (Jer 51:45) (Isa 52:11) (Re 18:4) (Eze 20:41) To better understand this we might want to think of it in the following manner:

If we have not even reached the point in which we recognize a very grave problem with the religious organization we have long been a member of, would we have any reason to be feeling like "LOST sheep""? Would we have any reason to suddenly feel like we were "skinned and thrown about like sheep WITHOUT a shepherd"? (Mt 9:36 10:5, 6) Would we in turn feel compelled to "flee" or otherwise "get out from among and separate ourselves" from this "unclean thing." Yes the INITIAL anointing of "Christ's domestics" or "brothers" (represented by things like the "ONE talent" or "mina" as opposed to the "four" or even "ten") is most often only enough to open our eyes to the very dire spiritual condition of what would actually now be an apostate nation or religious organization. (Mt 24:45 25:15, 40) (Lu 19:12) (Isa 10:6) Additional holy spirit (or "talents") are only furnished to the "few" among these anointed "virgins" who begin to "LISTEN" to Jehovah's prophets. It is very much like they now have extra or reserve "OIL" for their spiritual "LAMPS." (Mt 25:3, 4)


Agape love;
Sol

Get out of her
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Re: John 10:16

#58 Post by Get out of her » 1 month ago

Dajo 1 wrote:
The “other sheep were surely not a group that was discovered in the 1930s.
I feel that Eph 2:11-15 explains that the other sheep Jesus would bring was the gentiles.

However, I have always puzzled over Revelation 7 about the 144,000 and the great crowd and the teaching that they were two groups. A few months ago Meleti had a great article on his site that made it somewhat clearer... that they were, on reflection, the same.



I believe this would be a good time to enter Revelation Chapter 7 into the discussion of John 10:16. I will now proceed to demonstrate scripturally that David would be correct to imagine or suspect a connection existing between these two accounts. The fact is the messages being conveyed in its symbolic spiritual language are not only connected to the meanings of passages like John 10:16, but they can also go a long way in helping us to better GRASP these meanings.

As always I will be demonstrating that if we simply begin tuning out all the rhetoric/dogma or chatter that constantly surrounds us and actually begin focusing our attention on the scriptures themselves, there is really no great mystery here or any real reason for confusion on our parts whatsoever. (Ge 40:8) (2 Pe 1:20) Nevertheless In order for me to relate the true meanings of this chapter of Revelation in a manner that can really begin to be understood by the brothers and sisters, it would likely be good to begin by comparing this list of the twelve tribes of Israel it produces with the INITIAL list that was furnished for us millenniums earlier in the book of Numbers.


Numbers 1:3-15 . . . . . . . . . . . . . Revelation 7:5-9

1. Reuben . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Judah
2. Simeon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Reuben
3. Judah . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Gad
4. Issachar . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Asher
5. Zebulun . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Naphtali
6. Ephraim . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Manasseh
7. Manasseh . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Simeon
8. Benjamin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Levi
9. Dan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Issachar
10. Asher . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Zebulun
11. Gad . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Joseph
12. Naphtali . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Benjamin



Admittedly as is always the case when it comes to ANYTHING that originates from our glorious creator, ultimately what we are considering here could at the same time be recognized as a relatively large or even rather stunning volume of information being conveyed in these two lists, and this is all the more true when we factor in the distinctions between the two. (Ro 11:33) But for the sake of this discussion we will focus only on the things that relate most directly to accounts like John 10:16 or otherwise what I would refer to as the PRIMARY messages being conveyed here.

First of all did we ever even notice that there ARE indeed distinctions between these two lists of the tribes of Israel, and if so exactly what changes were made to the one in Revelation around the year of 96CE? The next question we would likely want to consider is this:

Due to the fact that the first list in the book of numbers was one of the ways Jehovah chose to symbolically represent ancient FLESHLY Israel, and the subsequent list in Revelation was by contrast a way of representing SPIRITUAL Israel or even "HEAVENLY things," should we be SURPRISED that these two distinct manifestations of Jehovah's authority and power are expressed somewhat DIFFERENTLY in this same symbolic spiritual language? (He 8:5 12:22)

Already at this point are minds should have begun to be geared toward issues or questions regarding what exactly it was that was being conveyed to mankind by representing Israel with twelve tribal names all along in the first place. This is because once scriptures like the ones cited there in Hebrews help us to understand that it has ultimately ALWAYS been ALL ABOUT symbolic spiritual meanings all along, this will put us in the necessary mindset to begin unlocking PARTICULARLY the meanings being conveyed with the DISTINCTIONS between these two lists.

So to make things as simple and concise as possible here, likely our best way forward at this point would be to begin thinking of BOTH of these lists as being symbolic representations of a SINGLE entity, (namely Israel of course, whether fleshly or spiritual) being represented with its twelve different facets in TWO distinct manifestations. Hopefully at least by now we have been prompted to appreciate just how important it would have been for us to have long ago been "PONDERING" the various meanings that were always assigned to these different tribes of Israel from the word go. (1 Ti 4:15) Nevertheless the moment we at least finally recognize the VALUE of this approach, we begin to be in a better position to grasp not only what things it was exactly that were always being symbolized by these various tribal names, but in turn also by the CHANGES that were later made to the list found in Revelation 7.

In this particular discussion we will be addressing merely FOUR of the names produced for us in these two tribal lists. This will be not simply to keep things more simple and concise, but also because there happens to be precisely FOUR changes that were ultimately made to this list. By extension this of course means that there are primarily FOUR messages being conveyed to us here. In other words there were two tribal names that were removed from the ORIGINAL list, and then two tribal names that were subsequently ADDED to the list of the SPIRITUAL tribes of Israel. From the word go this should begin helping us to understand that there are precisely TWO things that this list in Revelation DOES NOT represent or comprise, and by extension two things in particular that it DOES represent or symbolize. So really the only question at this point is what exactly are these four facets of Israel that are being focused on here in Revelation?

Let's by all means begin with the two facets that were REMOVED from spiritual Israel, or what could also be referred to as TRUE Christianity. This is because if we can identify precisely what is NOT being symbolically pictured here in Revelation 7, it should make it even easier to appreciate what IS being represented. The two tribal names that have been OMITTED from this list in Revelation happen to be Dan and Ephraim. So the question now is what was the symbolic significance that the scriptures had always assigned to these two tribes?

Well the fact is that of ALL FOUR of these tribal names we are considering here, the meaning assigned to the tribe of Dan is the only one that could be recognized as even REMOTELY challenging to ascertain when we simply begin to research the scriptures. The first clue given us to unraveling it would be to consider the number that was immediately associated with him; (Dan was the fifth son born to Jacob) namely the number 5 or what would be referred to as vov in Hebrew. (waw in the more ancient text) What I was always taught by my Hebrew instructor was that the character waw primarily conveyed the concept of judgment. Rest assured it's no coincidence that we immediately find this very word among the symbolic meaning assigned to Dan by Jacob under inspiration.


16 "Dan will JUDGE his people as one of the tribes of Israel. 17 Let Dan prove to be a serpent by the roadside, a horned snake by the wayside, that bites the heels of the horse so that its rider falls backward. 18 I will wait for salvation from you, O Jehovah." (Ge 49:16-18)



Please consider the following questions:

1. What is it exactly that Judges always use to perform their judging? Is it not the law?
2. Was the Mosaic Law covenant not identified by the New Testament writers as precisely what is being described here in the words of ancient Jacob, namely as a kind of stumbling block or even a "curse" that was ultimately designed to "make transgressions manifest" or otherwise point all the more to our dire need of salvation from Jehovah? (Ga 3:13, 19)
3. Was the legal power and authority (or even "law of love") that "FULFILLED" this prophetic picture in the context of fallen mankind not ITSELF identified ALSO as a kind of "stumbling block"? (1 Pe 2:8) (Ro 9:30-32 13:10)
4. Was not the personification of this very same legal power and authority in this setting not represented also as like a "SERPENT" or even serpents that would render Jehovah's adverse judgments against fallen flesh and subsequently be "lifted up in the wilderness" or even "nailed to the torture stake" to accept this "curse" INSTEAD of us? (Joh 3:14) (Nu 21:6-9)
5. Have the scriptures not always made it very clear that the Mosaic Law covenant would never be part and parcel of SPIRITUAL Israel? (Jer 31:31-33) (He 8:13)

6. Accordingly, now that we understand what Dan represented, should it be of any surprise to us that the tribe of Dan has been omitted from the list of the tribes of spiritual Israel found in Revelation?


Yes regardless of what particular form it is found in, the legal and therefore NATIONAL authority of Jehovah is essentially a curse and a stumbling block to sinful and imperfect mankind in a setting of a broken kingdom covenant. Moreover this always REMAINS the case until the moment his prophets or "two witnesses" once again ACCEPT this curse upon themselves and are in essence "lifted up" and "nailed to the stake" INSTEAD of mankind. (Ga 3:13) (Col 2:14) Once again the reason that repentance is always a key portion of the theme of their ministry is because they recognize that this same mindset must be adopted by ALL who would desire to join them as fellow stones of the next spiritual temple. (Mt 3:1, 2) (1 Cor 3:16, 17)

You see the first thing we need to understand about Revelation Chapter seven is the SETTING we find it in. This is a PROPHECY of the Apostle John which he uttered around the very same time we find him announcing the fifth foretold DEATH of Jehovah's nation or otherwise yet another foretold end of his legal power and authority on the earth. (1 Joh 2:18) This complete spiritual demise that occurred at the end of the first century was due to the apostasy of Jehovah's appointed shepherding fold that ones like Paul had been warning the congregations about for several decades already. (2 Th 2:3, 7, 8) Regardless of whether the events described in Revelation 7 are identified as occurring in the time period of the "sixth seal," "sixth trumpet blast," "sixth time," sixth "birth of the barren woman," etc., what we are considering here in Revelation is events that would correspond with the time of the SIXTH foretold BIRTH of Jehovah's nation or kingdom. (Re 6:12 9:13) (Da 4:23) (Jer 15:9) As we can see in the 11th Chapter of Revelation in the events connected with the "SIXTH trumpet," at this point Jehovah's "two witnesses" would have already once again performed the priestly functions necessary to REMOVE the curse of this spiritual death or sin from mankind, and this is NOT ONLY the reason we find the tribe of Dan removed from this list in Chapter 7, but also the reason we are once again reading about "SALVATION" for this "great crowd" of people from "all the nations." (Re 7: 9, 10 11:3, 7, 8, 11, 12)

Yes its true these people are identified here in Revelation 7 as "standing before the throne and before the lamb," and yes this wording moves some people to assume these ones would now be in heaven, but what we need to understand is that on EVERY occasion in which this "body of MANY members" of the Christ performs this priestly function outlined once again in chapter 11, divine power and authority is RESTORED to the earth or otherwise "COMES DOWN OUT OF heaven…" (Re 21:2) Just as pointed out for us in accounts like Chapter 5 of Revelation, this kingly/priestly authority is primarily concerned with the "EARTH." (Re 5:10)

Nevertheless the Mosaic Law code or otherwise the INITIAL form in which this legal power and authority was manifested was ALWAYS to be recognized as a FLESHLY law for a FLESHLY manifestation of Israel, and this brings us actually to a CONFIRMATION of this very point with the SECOND omission in the tribal list of spiritual Israel. The second of the two tribal names omitted from Revelation 7 is Ephraim, and the symbolic significance that was assigned to Ephraim was STRICTLY a fleshly one. As it turns out, he and his offspring would represent the "FULL EQUIVALENT OF NATIONS." (Ge 48:19)

This information alone should help us begin appreciating that the "other sheep" identified ONCE AGAIN as "OUT OF ALL NATIONS AND TRIBES AND PEOPLES AND TONGUES" also right here in Revelation 7 immediately after this list of the spiritual tribes in Revelation is actually this very same Ephraim entity that had just been EXCLUDED from the list. Once again the reason it was omitted was for the very reason Jesus pointed to in John 10:16. You see in a prophetic time frame in which Israel is to be recognized as a SPIRITUAL or even "HEAVENLY" nation, a FLESHLY entity, or at least one that would always REMAIN as such is simply "NOT OF THIS FOLD." (He 8:5 12:22)

We want to understand something here that becomes PARTICULARLY clear when it comes to the SPIRITUAL manifestation of Israel. This in fact is actually something that has ALWAYS been the case. So what exactly is this and why is it important to understand?

What actually constitutes or comprises a nation is GENUINE LEGAL POWER AND AUTHORITY. A nation is not a place, a particular genetic lineage or even a particular portion of a map. In other words, if you happened to have been born in ancient Moab or Edom for example, you would of course have qualified as a Moabite or an Edomite. But would you have qualified as the nation itself? Obviously not, as you would merely be a CITIZEN of the nation. On the other hand what if you happened to be among the members of its rulers such as a king, a prefect, a judge or an ambassador? Yes now you would comprise part of the nation itself, and in the case of Israel this distinction has always been represented primarily with being assigned the identity of a Jew as opposed to simply an Israelite. But why is this so important to understand and particularly when it comes to actually grasping accounts like John 10:16?

This is because when Israel or otherwise God's "kingdom COMES," it basically does so for the purpose of renewing the law or legal covenant that HAS ALWAYS established it AS a nation or kingdom IN THE FIRST PLACE! It is in fact for the very reason that Jehovah's nation LOSES its legal authority with a broken kingdom covenant that one of the scriptural terms for the "great harlot" that now REPLACES this nation is the "man of lawLESSness." (2 Th 2:3) In other words, at the time of the arrival of the "two witnesses" in the case of the first century or "FIFTH" foretold "coming of the kingdom" for example, (namely John the Baptist and Jesus), since they were the ONLY ones on the earth at that moment who possessed ANY level of genuine theocratic legal power and authority, this means that until the moment they would grant this also to repentant followers, they were the ONLY Jews on the earth. (Re 11:3) Moreover since this would prove to be the first of the foretold manifestations of SPIRITUAL Israel, this means that upon their anointing they qualified more specifically as SPIRITUAL Jews. This in turn means that they could also be referred to as TRUE Christians, and at least initially the ONLY true Christians. But if people are not even so much as COMMUNICATING with Jehovah's prophets at these times, let alone accepting and adjusting themselves to their teachings, just how exactly are they ever to receive this legal authority and power from them?

We desperately need to understand that here in this very same pre-kingdom setting we find ourselves in at this very moment in the context of the final "EIGHTH king," we are in this very same situation. (Re 17:11) One of the reasons this is so important for us to grasp is because Jehovah's kingdom and by extension his salvation is something he furnishes for HIS people. When the nation or kingdom once again needs to "come" or otherwise does not even exist, neither do God's people!

Once again the issue at this moment is the same as it ALWAYS is in these prophetic time frames, namely just what Jesus pointed out in John 10:16. Yes it's an issue of either "BECOMING" a member of the "little flock" which the "father has approved of giving the kingdom," or otherwise a member of the "great crowd" of "OTHER SHEEP which are NOT OF this fold." (Lu 12:32) (Joh 10:16) (Re 7:9) The ministry to these ones (or otherwise the ones "out of ALL the nations") (Compare Mt 28:18-20) and by extension the opportunity to qualify as Israelites as opposed to Jews will as always commence or begin the moment that Jehovah's prophets experience their fleshly deaths and spiritual resurrections just as the Apostle John foretold also in the case of the SIXTH "birth of the barren woman" or coming of the kingdom. (Re 9:13 11:3, 7, 8, 11, 12) (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 5:19) So let's proceed now with the tribal names that were ADDED to this list in Revelation 7.

The names that were added are Joseph and Levi. At this point since we already understand what is NOT represented by this list of the twelve tribes of Israel, this very concise representation of what it DOES symbolize should be very easy for us to grasp. Levi of course was always used to represent the priestly fold of Jehovah's nation, and Joseph along with all the events depicted along with him in turn always served as a prophetic picture of the "leader" or "foundation cornerstone" of this spiritual temple. (Da 9:25) (1 Pe 2:6) Rest assured it is no coincidence that that this priestly service is once again associated with a cursing and even death, and by extension the dire need of it being removed from us. (Ge 49:5-7) Jacob in fact referred to the Joseph or "leader" portion of this priestly entity as (once again) a "STONE of Israel," but in this case with a unique distinction of one that resided "in a PERMANENT place." (Ge 49:24)

We might recall that just as was pictured for us in the prophetic dramas involving this firstborn of Rachael's sons, this prophetic figure of Jesus WENT "AHEAD" of all his brothers into what was ultimately used to symbolically foreshadow "in a SPIRITUAL sense Sodom and Egypt where their Lord was also impaled." (Ge 45:7) (Re 11:8) Yes this leader set the EXAMPLE for his followers in accepting the "torture stake" or otherwise the burden of the guilt or even "curse" that ALWAYS comes with a violated kingdom covenant. (Isa 53) Let's by all means consider some of the symbolic significance that was assigned to Joseph by Jacob under inspiration.


25 "He is FROM the God of your father and he will help you, and he is WITH the almighty, and he will bless you with the blessings of the HEAVENS ABOVE, with the blessings of the watery deep lying down below, with the blessings of the breasts and womb. 26 The blessings of your father will indeed be superior to the blessings of the eternal mountains, to the ornament of the indefinitely lasting hills. They will continue upon the head of Joseph, even upon the crown of the head of the one SINGLED OUT from his brothers." (Ge 49:25, 26)


We realize of course that the priestly sacrifices of this Joseph/Levi entity ultimately furnishes blessings for mankind that extend far beyond simply life or salvation. There are always MANY facets of ruling authority and power in the case of ANY nation. It is basically these other facets that are being represented with the additional names we find here in this list of the spiritual tribes of Israel. (Re 7:5-8)

Agape love;
Sol

Get out of her
Posts: 883
Joined: 4 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#59 Post by Get out of her » 1 month ago

For some strange reason the list in Revelation 7 moved over and joined the one in the book of numbers the moment I hit the post button. Perhaps Bobcat or Apollos can correct that for us at some point to help us avoid any confusion.

Bobcat
Posts: 3149
Joined: 6 years ago

Re: John 10:16

#60 Post by Bobcat » 1 month ago

I hope my edit to your post is to your satisfaction Sol. The problem stems from the forum software. As far as I can tell, anytime there are 2 or more spaces in a row the forum will only display one of the spaces. My hack to overcome that is to use periods with a space in between each period to space things out as I want them. (For example, see here.) And even then there is not perfect alignment because the forum uses proportional fonts in the display of posts.

Another possible way to display parallel lists is to use a code box (the "</>" button). In a code box you can use multiple spaces and/or tabs to align your display, like this:

Code: Select all

   Numbers 1:3-15	Revelation 7:5-9

1.  Reuben		Judah
2.  Simeon 		Reuben
3.  Judah		Gad
4.  Issachar		Asher
5.  Zebulun 		Naphtali
6.  Ephraim		Manasseh
7.  Manasseh		Simeon
8.  Benjamin		Levi
9.  Dan			Issachar
10. Asher		Zebulun
11. Gad			Joseph
12. Naphtali		Benjamin

Note too, that a code box uses fixed width fonts which makes for easier alignment of lists.

By the way, thanks for the parallel list of Jewish tribes. It is interesting. The order in the Numbers listing is:
Leah's children (minus Levi) numbers 1 thru 5;
Rachel's children (with Ephraim & Manasseh representing Joseph, plus Benjamin) numbers 6 thru 8;
Bilhah (Rachel's handmaid) (Dan) number 9;
Zilpah (Leah's handmaid) (Asher) number 10;
Zilpah (Gad) number 11;
Bilhah (Naphtali) number 12.

The listing represents how Israelites saw family hierarchy: Wives first (with Leah first as the first wife). Then concubines in no particular order. Dan, Asher, Gad & Naphtali represent 5, 8, 7 & 6 in actual birth order to Jacob. Note also Ephraim before Manasseh per Gen 48:8-19. (See the chiasms under Genesis 47-48 & 49-50 in this post).


The Revelation listing has a distinctly Messianic flavor with Judah listed first. It also includes Levi, but excludes Dan (known for idolatry). Ephraim (son of Joseph) is also missing and was known for idolatry/unfaithfulness. But Joseph (father of Manasseh) is included. The listing, then, appears to favor faithfulness rather than simply family association (another Christian attribute in the listing - Mt 19:29).

See post # 68 for additional on the tribal listings and the listing in Revelation 7:5-8 here.

This post (by poster "oneapart") offers some possible scriptural references for why Dan & Ephraim are missing from the listing in Rev 7:5-8.


Bobcat

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